Author Topic: Brian Gardner LA .25 ABC Sets (Read 25328 times)

Al Ferraro · « **on:** April 13, 2016, 11:18:01 PM »

It's no secret that the LA .25 piston and liner is of poor quality. Every La .25 engine that has a few flights on it leaks compression when I check it by bringing it up to TDC. I use the La .25 for speed limit combat and it's a good engine but the piston seal keeps getting worst with more use. I contacted Brian about making up some high quality ABC sets for this engine like he did for the Fox .36x. I also heard that the LA.25 Piston and Liners will fit the FP .25 but we would need someone else to confirm this. I alone would order at least 6 sets.

Reply below if you're interested in ordering the ABC piston and liner sets and how many.
Al

Steve Lotz · « **Reply #1 on:** April 14, 2016, 09:09:09 AM »

I could use 3 sets.

Steve Lotz

Gerald Arana · « **Reply #2 on:** April 14, 2016, 09:41:13 AM »

I'll take two sets.

Gerald Arana

dave siegler · « **Reply #3 on:** April 14, 2016, 10:03:59 AM »

2 for me.

John Saunders · « **Reply #4 on:** April 14, 2016, 01:35:13 PM »

I'll take 3 sets . The sooner the better. Thanks AL

Brent Williams · « **Reply #5 on:** April 14, 2016, 06:08:09 PM »

Price?

Brian Gardner · « **Reply #6 on:** April 14, 2016, 07:26:34 PM »

The Fox 36X/ST46/OS35/ST60 sets are usually around $115 Australian dollars shipped. The ST51 sets are $130 because of the more detail in the port machining. But this usually includes rod and pin. I'm guessing that you guys wouldn't want the rods or pins? So it would be less $ naturally.

tom brightbill · « **Reply #7 on:** April 14, 2016, 08:30:40 PM »

What port timing would be done? Intended for racing, stunt, ?
Thanks

jfv · « **Reply #8 on:** April 14, 2016, 09:56:03 PM »

I'm good for 2 sets

Al Ferraro · « **Reply #9 on:** April 14, 2016, 10:02:21 PM »

(What port timing would be done? Intended for racing, stunt)
I would keep the port timing stock. This engine is a good multi purpose engine, a lot of my friends use it in stunt on a Ringmaster instead of a Fox .35. I use it in Speed Limit combat on a bladder with a 8x4 prop. This engine is easy to needle and it holds it's setting for the 5 minute match and has plenty of power. With Brian's ABC set the engine will use less fuel and give better performance because of the chrome and roundness of his liners. I was told his work is team race quality by someone who knows engines on that level. Because Brian is starting with a clean sheet of paper I would have him make the liner flange .010 thicker than stock to make it more rigid. The new stock engine I have came with a .015 head shim and if you take it out the piston will hit the head. In the past Brian always supplied head shims so if he sends along a .005 head shim to use it will be back to stock spec. clearance. He can also make some liner shims for the guys that want to jack up the timing. I didn't ask Brian yet but it would be nice to have a turbo head button that would sit deeper in the liner and a head clamp too.
Al

Tom Luciano · « **Reply #10 on:** April 15, 2016, 04:51:00 AM »

I'll take 3

Tom

Fredvon4 · « **Reply #11 on:** April 15, 2016, 07:54:34 AM »

I am in for 2 sets

and as suggested in one of the other threads on Brian's work, willing to send a deposit to help keep Brian from tying up his limited funds to start a project

Brian Gardner · « **Reply #12 on:** April 15, 2016, 07:30:52 PM »

Looks like we have numbers. Things are pretty busy at the moment, so production may take a while. Are you guys prepared to wait like usual?

Fredvon4 · « **Reply #13 on:** April 16, 2016, 07:00:24 AM »

Steve Lotz · « **Reply #14 on:** April 16, 2016, 07:10:53 AM »

Me too neither... to quote Stan Laurel.

BYU · « **Reply #15 on:** April 16, 2016, 07:50:32 AM »

How about sets for the LA 46 as well?

I would be up for 4

Brian Gardner · « **Reply #16 on:** April 16, 2016, 07:34:28 PM »

I have an old and well used FP25. Probably not good for getting the pin fit right though. If Al would like to send me an LA25 in good condition I can check for parts compatibility and get the ball rolling on this one.

Al Ferraro · « **Reply #17 on:** April 16, 2016, 09:16:06 PM »

That's good news Brian, Ill mail out the LA.25 to you on Monday.
Al

Al Ferraro · « **Reply #18 on:** April 17, 2016, 05:00:21 PM »

(If he were to make the bore size slightly smaller we could fit our old pistons when the new piston wears out)
The problem with that is the head will not fit the new piston and liner that Brian will make. Most guys want to upgrade the engine without any machine work. In my engine it was the liner that wore out not the piston. I found this out when I compared it to a new set that I bought from Tower Hobby. I will send a brand new, never run, engine to Brian to check out and to compare it to his FP. So far the only thing that I think should be changed is the flange to be .010 thicker.
Keep the suggestions coming though, it's not too late to make changes as long as it works in all applications.
Al

john ohnimus · « **Reply #19 on:** April 18, 2016, 11:00:57 AM »

Sign me up for 1

Chad Hill · « **Reply #20 on:** April 18, 2016, 02:14:59 PM »

Quote from: Al Ferraro on April 13, 2016, 11:18:01 PM

It's no secret that the LA .25 piston and liner is of poor quality. Every La .25 engine that has a few flights on it leaks compression when I check it by bringing it up to TDC. I use the La .25 for speed limit combat and it's a good engine but the piston seal keeps getting worst with more use.

I bought six new LA 25s when I returned to combat in 2006 and have flown them hundreds of times on F2D planes. In ten years I've only had to replace one P&L because of compression issues, and that one still had some life in it. One other LA 25 suddenly developed a bad case of castor gumming during a match a couple years ago (against phil c, I believe) but a dip in the crock pot fixed that one.

These are the only problems I've had with the LA 25, knock on wood. For what it's worth, I've always used Sig Champion 10% nitro with extra oil to bring the total oil to 23%. The extra oil has included 1 ounce per gallon of Randy Smith's Aero-1, with the balance half Klotz and half Sig castor. I religiously clean each motor after use and liberally squirt in plenty of after run oil that is half ATF and half air tool oil. As I recall, set on bladder pressure these LA 25s tach about 15-16k using Schimitar 8-5s or Master Airscrew S-2 8-5s.

Just my $.02 and no criticism implied. Maybe the OS quality has fallen on these P&Ls since 2006.

Brett Buck · « **Reply #21 on:** April 18, 2016, 06:07:21 PM »

Quote from: Chad Hill on April 18, 2016, 02:14:59 PM

Just my $.02 and no criticism implied. Maybe the OS quality has fallen on these P&Ls since 2006.

All of mine (20FP and 25LA) have been completely bulletproof, no issues. Same with 40/46VFs or any other OS ABN engine I have used or seen. I am running them in stunt, but the 20's in particular are running pretty close to as much power as they will develop. They break in rapidly and then just go and go.

That's not to say you shouldn't have an aftermarket ABC liner if you want one, Brian's work is impeccable. But it absolutely is not necessary for stunt and certainly not for durability - assuming the rest of the engine is *left alone*.

And for goodness sake, I would certainly recommend replicating the last version liner *exactly as it comes from OS in all respects*. That's because it's a *stellar* stunt engine stock, and will provide runs better than most people will ever have for the rest of their careers, based on what I have seen over the last 40 years or so. It certainly cannot be significantly improved upon in terms of run quality for stunt by random tinkering or the ministrations of the "head gasket patrol".

Brett

Al Ferraro · « **Reply #22 on:** April 18, 2016, 07:03:24 PM »

I was wondering when the rocks would start flying?
About two years ago I bought six LA25s (made in China) so far I'm using four of them in speed limit combat. To start with they were the worst engine I ever ran to break in. They wouldn't hold a needle setting using a bladder for a fuel tank. I only used Power Master 10% Nitro, 22% oil GMA fuel. All the piston and liners felt like they had a tight fit but not really pinching at the top. It wasn't until they really loosened up that they would run steady and needle good on the bladder, but at the same time they wouldn't hold compression at TDC. I've been around engines and have used the LA15 in clown racing which is a great little motor. I also have a 40VF that holds compression too. I started to check every LA that I came across on my friends sport and stunt planes and have yet to find one to hold compression at TDC. Anyway, I just mailed out a new engine today to Brian to measure and compare to see if the LA liners will fit the FP too. From my experience with Brian's ABC piston & liners in the past, I know when we get his ABC set and put them in the LA it's going to be one amazing motor!

Randy Cuberly · « **Reply #23 on:** April 19, 2016, 11:25:49 AM »

I'll take two for a twin!

I have several LA25' (about 7 at last count) and have found them to be a bit inconsistent. Some are very good and some Not So Much.

All work reasonably well but some are definitely stronger and better running than others.

All of mine were purchased in the early 2000's. Nothing after about 2003. All were converted R/C engines!

Randy Cuberly

Brett Buck · « **Reply #24 on:** April 19, 2016, 11:29:37 AM »

Quote from: Al Ferraro on April 18, 2016, 07:03:24 PM

I was wondering when the rocks would start flying?
About two years ago I bought six LA25s (made in China) so far I'm using four of them in speed limit combat. To start with they were the worst engine I ever ran to break in. They wouldn't hold a needle setting using a bladder for a fuel tank. I only used Power Master 10% Nitro, 22% oil GMA fuel. All the piston and liners felt like they had a tight fit but not really pinching at the top. It wasn't until they really loosened up that they would run steady and needle good on the bladder, but at the same time they wouldn't hold compression at TDC.

I am not throwing rocks, but I do see the same thing time after time, where a perfectly good engine suddenly needs all sorts of modifications, while everyone else goes on with it working fine.

Mine took about 15 flights to break in and run correctly, which is pretty much dead consistent with other people's experience. I would suggest, in the future, that you run it on the ground with *all the stock parts* and *the stock venturi* and a *conventional tank* before attempting to convert it to a bladder and whatever you use for a venturi/spraybar. Do a few 5-minute runs with cooling, then hook it up to a 16 ounce clunk tank, set it running, and more-or less walk away from it aside from running the needle in as it loosens up. It is broken in when the front end runs cool - it will be boiling hot on the first 5 runs or so. At least then, you will be separating the problems associated with your conversion and operating conditions from fundamental issues with the engine.

Quote

From my experience with Brian's ABC piston & liners in the past, I know when we get his ABC set and put them in the LA it's going to be one amazing motor!

Agreed, no one is debating the quality of Brian's work and it will be great. And it sounds like there is a market for it, to by all means, go ahead. I just hope it is the *stock* version *exactly as it came from the factory*, because that's the one that is known to work well for stunt.

Brett

Brian Gardner · « **Reply #25 on:** April 20, 2016, 12:31:28 AM »

yes I intend to give an approximation.

Quote from: Motorman on April 19, 2016, 11:47:42 AM

I expect someone will get back to us with a firm price before production starts?

MM

Al Ferraro · « **Reply #26 on:** April 20, 2016, 10:06:03 PM »

(I just hope it is the *stock* version *exactly as it came from the factory*)
Like I said before, this is a good multi purpose engine and I want Brian to keep the ports in a stock configuration. The upper liner flange is kind of wimpy at .050. I would like Brian to make the liner flange .060. My new LA .25 came with a .015 head shim. I would want Brian to supply a .005 head shim to use with his liner so the sport and stunt guys will still have the same stock head clearance.

(It is broken in when the front end runs cool - it will be boiling hot on the first 5 runs or so)
This was not my experience because my combat friends had previously schooled me on this. Before my engine was ever run I had a light hone put on the case and the crank polished, all my break in problems were piston and liner related.
It will be nice to have the LA 25 so that when the Circle Marshal says go, I can bounce the prop backwards on compression to get a one flip start.

Al

Scott Richlen · « **Reply #27 on:** April 21, 2016, 05:26:17 AM »

Sign me up for 1.

Thanks

Steve Scott · « **Reply #28 on:** April 21, 2016, 04:46:12 PM »

Well sure...

phil c · « **Reply #29 on:** April 23, 2016, 09:22:45 AM »

I'll take 2 sets(or three. Prepaying would be no problem.

Quote from: Chad Hill on April 18, 2016, 02:14:59 PM

....................
Just my $.02 and no criticism implied. Maybe the OS quality has fallen on these P&Ls since 2006......................

From what I've heard, at least the last LA 46's were made in China. I got a couple LA 25/S engines, the last few Tower Hobbies had on sale. They were made in China. Haven't had any need to run them though. The others are still runniing OK.

A really good new liner and piston/pin would be great!!

Brian Gardner · « **Reply #30 on:** April 24, 2016, 03:37:02 PM »

I'm anticipating the shipped price being around $105-$110 Australian. Postage rates have increased $5 but that will include tracking to most countries.

Scott Richlen · « **Reply #31 on:** April 24, 2016, 06:23:07 PM »

That's $81 to 85 dollars U.S.

Brian Gardner · « **Reply #32 on:** April 28, 2016, 08:23:59 PM »

Guys, I have the sample engine and am doing a comparison between the LA and FP 25. So progress is happpening.

Can everyone who expressed interest above confirm their request before I finalise quantities. I anticipate the price being around $105 to $110 Australian shipped. It will include piston & liner & head shims.

Brian

jfv · « **Reply #33 on:** April 28, 2016, 08:29:31 PM »

I'm still in for 2 sets.

proparc · « **Reply #34 on:** April 28, 2016, 08:49:09 PM »

I don't have any LA 25's but, based on the results of the ST 51 set, that is going to be a killer LA 25!!

It is an absolute shame they can't retrofit the LA 46's.

Tom Luciano · « **Reply #35 on:** April 29, 2016, 04:26:56 AM »

confirming 3

Steve Lotz · « **Reply #36 on:** April 29, 2016, 04:34:54 AM »

Confirming 3 sets. No rods this time?

dave siegler · « **Reply #37 on:** April 29, 2016, 04:53:39 AM »

confirming still in for 2

Fredvon4 · « **Reply #38 on:** April 29, 2016, 06:16:47 AM »

confirming 2 sets

Al Ferraro · « **Reply #39 on:** April 29, 2016, 06:38:03 AM »

I'm in for 8

John Saunders · « **Reply #40 on:** April 29, 2016, 07:29:34 AM »

confirming 3 sets

Scott Richlen · « **Reply #41 on:** April 29, 2016, 07:30:34 AM »

confirming 1 set

bob whitney · « **Reply #42 on:** April 29, 2016, 08:06:30 AM »

i will take 2 sets

john ohnimus · « **Reply #43 on:** April 29, 2016, 04:23:30 PM »

I'll take 1 set

Dave Edwards · « **Reply #44 on:** April 29, 2016, 05:11:46 PM »

Two sets for me

Brian Gardner · « **Reply #45 on:** April 29, 2016, 05:25:46 PM »

Thanks for the confirmations. Keep them coming to the guys that have not confirmed based on price.

OK guys, I've been doing some measuring.

The liners are the same between the LA and FP with some porting exceptions:

1. Exh timing is the same
2. The FP has a boost port whereas the LA does not.
3. The transfer timing on the LA is a bit higher than the FP.
4. The FP transfers are angled up whereas the LA transfers are straight.

I used to fill the boost port in the FP which gave a good stunt run. The absence of the boost port and slightly higher timed transfers in the LA explains why it works well as a sport stunt config. The LA piston & liner will retrofit into the FP.

The pistons are the same with the exception the FP piston is cast whereas the LA is fully machined.
The pins are the same
The rods are the same. (I don't see the point of making rods as the motors these would be going in shouldn't need rods yet)

So if you guys are happy to have the LA piston & liner replicated with the suggestion of the slightly thicker flange at the top I'm happy to do so.

david beazley · « **Reply #46 on:** April 30, 2016, 03:36:30 AM »

I'm good for 2

Al Ferraro · « **Reply #47 on:** April 30, 2016, 12:24:42 PM »

(So if you guys are happy to have the LA piston & liner replicated with the suggestion of the slightly thicker flange at the top I'm happy to do so)
Thanks Brian, I know this is going to be a great upgrade for the LA25 and it's good news that it will fit the FP25 also. Looking forward to getting them and please let me know if you need a deposit.
Al

Brian Gardner · « **Reply #48 on:** April 30, 2016, 03:52:03 PM »

One problem I see with this is that my liners may have different thermal expansion rates. So you guys would be guessing on the fit that you would lap the old piston to.

Quote from: Motorman on April 30, 2016, 01:51:21 PM

I think that should be investigated because the heads are made for interchangeable manufacture (loose) and the size difference could be less than .001" smaller.

MM

RandySmith · « **Reply #49 on:** April 30, 2016, 05:53:27 PM »

Quote from: Brian Gardner on April 30, 2016, 03:52:03 PM

One problem I see with this is that my liners may have different thermal expansion rates. So you guys would be guessing on the fit that you would lap the old piston to.

No worries Brian, they will work just fine, the OS ones are brass , and if some one had a steel one they would still work, make them the exact same size, not smaller

Randy