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Author Topic: BOM Proposal  (Read 13020 times)

Offline Bradley Walker

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Re: BOM Proposal
« Reply #100 on: October 13, 2007, 04:30:14 PM »
Yup....
I believe that Warren's proposal is what I am going to urge my CLCB guy to vote for....look at the experience that he brings to the event at the top level. When he remarks that the BOM is unenforceable, you can take it to the bank.

You guys need to read this sentence a few times.

The guy who has RUN THE FRIGGIN NATS for more than a decade is saying the BOM is unenforceable!  How much more proof do you need?

I love the idea of going all FAI rules.  No more need for AMA rules. 
"The reasonable man adapts himself to his environment. The unreasonable man adapts his environment to himself, therefore all progress is made by unreasonable men."
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Offline Bradley Walker

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Re: BOM Proposal
« Reply #101 on: October 13, 2007, 04:54:54 PM »
. Several of the District Reps. do not even fly control line.....

I have spoken to fliers from other disciplines and this appears to be a common problem throughout AMA competition.  Many of the Rule Committee appointees have not competed in years and years ACROSS THE BOARD.

Since the Rules Committee appointments are lifetime appointments, many do not wish to give up their positions, even after they stop flying.
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Offline billbyles

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Re: BOM Proposal
« Reply #102 on: October 13, 2007, 05:38:56 PM »
Ok, here goes.

Some people may laugh but this is it.

BOM, Builder of the model.  If you completely BUILT and FINISHED your model from a plan or kit or scratch, not assembled from pre-existing or pre-built or bought sub assemblies, excluding hardware, including but not limited to, controls systems, bellcranks, control horns, landing gear, motor mounting pads, and or RC motor mounts, engines, exhaust systems, propellers, canopies then you may claim appearance points.  The appearance points will be added to your flight score.

If you used an ARF, ARC, RTF, or Bought plane or borrwed plane, or bought wings, tails, fuses, and you did not completely apply the finish you can not claim appearance points. 

You must comply with the BOM to be able to enter events Jr Sr Open.  Adv and PAMPA classes may be entered with a non BOM plane and appearance points will not be awarded and or added to the flight score.



Doug - Yes!  This is it.  Nothing to laugh at here...you defined the BOM as it should, in my opinion, be written and applied.

Bill
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Offline Bill Little

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Re: BOM Proposal
« Reply #103 on: October 13, 2007, 06:37:49 PM »
Quote
(Doug Moon) I say again people moving to no BOM is not to level the playing field.  It is to remove a rule that is not enforceable.  I know you say you know who builds what in your area.  But are people going to readily disclose they buy their wings from Hunt or Planes from Morris and Berry or other parts from Little or a whole host of other builders for hire.  Yet those guys have long lists of people waiting for parts and or planes to be built.  As it stands now you can kind of rationalize that you built enough of it to qualify and no one has to know.  The way I wrote the rule you will flat out know if you are in violation.(/quote)

Hi Doug,

As we have discussed before, you know I am 100% FOR the BOM (as is Bradley if I understand what he's always said) but I am 100% for DROPPING it because of the very fact that it is UNENFORCABLE.  I know you do not argue that, nor does Warren Tiahart!!

Now for the others who always are in the *discussions* we often have on the BOM, I do not even believe it is a factor of anyone *cheating*.  The rule was relaxed YEARS AGO!   Many years ago I heard the 51% *rule* which was universally accepted where I heard it (the NATS!). 

There is *testimony* on this board as to people getting their planes painted by others *years ago*.  It was accepted.  So, just where was the line drawn?  Nowhere....... some built the plane and painted it, some did various levels, and even some *bought* their planes.  It's all irrelevant now. 

Yes, I know of people who fly bought wings (as does Bob, Doug, Dale, Tom M., Tom D., Randy S., and anyone else who has "built for hire"), and I know certain people would NEVER believe who some of these people are!  And it all reality, it doesn't matter anyway.

The BOM is no longer an enforceable rule, no matter how much we would like to *believe* it is.  It has just been so transparent for too many years.  Any rule will not bother me, since I will build my planes anyway as will MANY others.  And there will STILL be guys buying what they can afford to. 

Please guys, do not be SO NAIVE that you do not realize what has happened over the last 30+ years.

IMHO, as much as I really hate to admit it, we need to let the BOM, *R.I.P.*

Big Bear <><

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Offline Randy Powell

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Re: BOM Proposal
« Reply #104 on: October 13, 2007, 11:38:13 PM »
Bill,

Well, if everyone is a cheater and most have others build their planes anyway, then I suppose your right. Dump the BOM. I stopped expecting integrity from people a long time ago. If you get it, it's always refreshing.

Hell of a world we've created.
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Offline Bill Little

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Re: BOM Proposal
« Reply #105 on: October 14, 2007, 10:05:38 AM »
Bill,

Well, if everyone is a cheater and most have others build their planes anyway, then I suppose your right. Dump the BOM. I stopped expecting integrity from people a long time ago. If you get it, it's always refreshing.

Hell of a world we've created.

Randy,

As you know, EVERYONE is not *cheating*.  That was one of my first statements. ;D  Things became "ok" to use and it just went overboard until there is no longer a really fine line as to what is and what isn't acceptable. 

It's no biggie....... and really, it is amazing what some have used and felt fine while doing it.  I ain't kidding.  I don't think any less of these guys because it just "happened".
Big Bear <><

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Offline Bob Reeves

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Re: BOM Proposal
« Reply #106 on: October 14, 2007, 10:11:33 AM »
I sure remember the 76 NATS, a bunch of Hunt wings including me and none of us thought for a second it was cheating.

Offline Shultzie

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Re: BOM Proposal
« Reply #107 on: October 14, 2007, 10:51:02 AM »
Sparky!
Dumb and Dumber me....uhhhh?

Before I punch the "is the BOM Proposal acceptable has me asking?
Do I think the BOM as written over the years is acceptable?
OR SHOULD IT BE ELIMINATED INSTEAD?  

I am so far really amazed that the BOM as written is still in effect after all these years...that is if we are to deem that stunt flying should be considered a HOBBY or a SPORT CONTEST!

IT STILL REMAINS AN OXEEEE'MORON' TO THINK THAT COMPETITON STUNT FLYING CAN BEGIN TO BE CALLED A SPORT....IF FLYERS CONTINUE TO WANT TO CALL IT A "HOBBY SPORT!"
Anyone who feels a HOBBY SPORT can be morfed into a SPORT.....and still in their MINDS EYE AND HEARTS...FEEL THAT THIS IS FAIR???
MAY I SAY JUST FOR THE RECORD!!!!!!!!!!! LET'S GET REAL...GET OUR HEADS OUTTA THE SAND AND SWALLOW A HUGE DOSE OF RAW REALITY...N'ALLTHATJAZZ!
IS THE BOM FAIR?
At least to this ol' grunt-----
NO WAY!!!
« Last Edit: October 14, 2007, 08:57:00 PM by Shultzie »
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Offline Marvin Denny

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Re: BOM Proposal
« Reply #108 on: October 14, 2007, 12:14:25 PM »
  Might I point out that many of those opposed to the BOm rule have a monetary reason for getting it thrown out.  They either are, or are planning to, produce ARFs, ARCs, or prebuilt components such as wings and Fuselages, and they are afraid that ANY BOM restrictions might hurt their business.
  I personally think that the initial proposal here on this thread would help their sales more than hurt them.

  Bigiron
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Offline Andrew Borgogna

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Re: BOM Proposal
« Reply #109 on: October 14, 2007, 01:45:34 PM »

Bigiron
Do you really believe that this all about money.  Sorry my fellow modeler but that just ain't the case.  I have nothing at stake here except to get rid of a bad rule and install a good one.  Yes, I could live with no BOM at all, but the rules change proposed here I think is a fair compromise and no I don't think it is being driven my money.  Like I said earlier, just ask the person "Did you build it?" and simply accept his/her answer.  The word of my fellow modelers is good enough for me.  I may not trust politicians, but I do trust modelers.
Andy
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Offline Randy Powell

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Re: BOM Proposal
« Reply #110 on: October 14, 2007, 02:20:20 PM »
>>I don't think any less of these guys because it just "happened".<<

It's didn't just happen. Folks made a conscious decision to ignore the rule or stretch the meaning in their favor. You either follow the rule or you don't. I can't imagine that people that read the rule then used a wing (or wing and tail plane or whatever) built by someone else didn't know that this was cheating. They just convinced themselves that it was OK. Other guys are doing it, I have to do it to stay competitive. Doesn't mean that they didn't understand that it was cheating, it was just what they looked at a a minor stretch of the rules. Cheating that they could live with. It's a decision we all make every day in our lives. It's not hard to do. It's called rationalization.

There was a good point made here and perhaps that's really the crux of the differences of opinion on this: hobby vs. sport.

The comparison was made that it's like golf. It's not like golf. No one ever expected people to make their own clubs (though in the early days a hundred years ago you had to). While I think calling golf a "sport" is a stretch (I always have but that's not the point), it is considered by most a sport no different from football. You don't build your own equipment to play sports. Flying planes was looked at, since it's inception, as a hobby and the expectation was that you built and flew your own plane.

Now, I like the idea that flying planes is a test of your mind and your skills of creation as well as your reflexes, but folks here are right; it is sooner or later going to become a sport just like football or whatever and the idea that you would have to build your own plane to compete will seem silly. Hey, guys used to build their own cars to race, but that is a thing of the past, too.

I imagine that those of us that still look at this as a hobby that tests the building skills (and perhaps designing skills), finishing skills and flying skills will have to take refuge in contests like VSC where they still get it. Where it's still a hobby. A hobby in earnest, but a hobby. Perhaps those types of contests will propagate (or not). But I agree that the handwriting is on the wall. As flying planes pushes fully to a sports mentality, the idea of producing your own equipment to compete will seem ridiculous and it will go away.

I think the way things are is a much more demanding test of a person than eliminating 2/3 of the test and just buying a plane to fly. But that's me.
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Offline Bill Little

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Re: BOM Proposal
« Reply #111 on: October 14, 2007, 03:00:12 PM »
Hi Randy,

I stated in my 1st response that this proposal is definitely one I could live with.  Heck, I could live with a lie detector test as far as if I built my own planes.  That's not my point as this discussion developed.  I know an ex World Champion who cannot keep up with building wings (last time I talked to him) in the range of money that exceeds what I spend to build a whole plane for myself!  They ain't going into "practice" planes.  That, in and of itself, is a violation of the *Original* BOM rule.

The prospect that numerous contestants would show up at the NATS with planes that were widely built from major assembled components led to a *threat* of numerous protests.  This prompted an emergency ruling for CLPA concerning the BOM to ward off the hassle of dealing with all the protests.  Plus, a precedent had ALREADY been set by a pilot winning Advanced (a recognised National Championship event at the NATS) with a plane constructed of major assemblies that were pre-built.  This was before any *extra ruling*.  Hence my statement that the BOM has been unenforceable for decades.

Nothing will change even if your proposal is passed.  I like it, but there will always be those who look the other way and *believe* it is all right.  You are correct, *rationalization* is the key word.  What a person *believes is true* IS true to that person.  I have no easy answer................

Bill <><
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Offline Tom Weedon

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Re: BOM Proposal
« Reply #112 on: October 14, 2007, 03:41:38 PM »

OK, Here's one for you "purists". I bought a Veco Smoothie kit from a fellow several years ago. It was about 30+ years old and some of the wood was turning brown. I got it for $40 which I think was Ok because the kit was complete. Now, he had glued the plywood reinforcements to the fuselage sides, and he had glued some of the ribs to the spar pieces. He had made a mess of some of it so I had to "undo" most (not all) of the wing. He also had sanded the rudder and elevator pieces.

So my question is simply this, since I ended up building about 90 to 90% of the model, am I lying when I enter a contest and say that I built the model? Should I be excluded because I did not build 101% of the model????

I believe we have some "purists" on this list are plagued with a "Holier than Thou" attitude because they insist that every one build models like they do. You know, some folks just can't build, or some don't have the time, and further, some people want to sell their good, quality used models, the BOM rule makes used models totally worthless, just as in Free Flight, where old men have to give away perfectly good used models because no one wants them as they would not be able to enter a contest with them. I'm trying to get back in C/L stunt after a 30 year break, flying mostly R/C Pattern and IMAC, but this cheep bitching is TOTALLY CRAZY! I just can't see it. Maybe this old man should go back to flying pattern where fellows don't care where your plane came from, just "how well can you fly" is the only thing that matters.

Food for Thought!

Tom Weedon
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Offline Marvin Denny

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Re: BOM Proposal
« Reply #113 on: October 14, 2007, 03:48:13 PM »
Bigiron
Do you really believe that this all about money.  Sorry my fellow modeler but that just ain't the case. Andy
  No Andy, I don't think that it is all about money.  I just pointed out that some DO have a vested interest that they are concerned about .  Youldn't you be concerned if you had spent considerable amounts of time, effort, and money to get a product out  and then find that someone was trying to get a rule change  that might kill all your efforts??  I would think you would be highly concerned.  That is why I put in THREE stages of points allocations so that such efforts would NOT be adversly affected.
  Thanks for your input.

  Bigiron
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Offline L0U CRANE

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Re: BOM Proposal
« Reply #114 on: October 14, 2007, 03:50:24 PM »
Bill,

Appreciate yor comments, and your efforts to keep this monster on the leash to a reasonable extent...

Personally, I'd state clearly to whoever asked how much of any of my models I "built" and how much came pretty well ready to tack together. If that affects Appearance Points, fine, so be it.

I enjoy building too much to "go with the flow" as some others suggest. Sure I've had an ARF or two. Generally, the fact that a profitable business depends on a certain level of quality is evident. If the models are sagging slugs, they'll never get a return customer for that or any other ARF/ARC they might offer... As a result, my ARFs and several others I've seen are almost always straight and light. Straighter and lighter than their likely buyers could build, at an early point in their career in our hobby/sport.

Of course, we hear of the shortfalls in "packaging" the available ARF/ARC offerings. Part of that is from others who like to build, and would NOT have done it the way the 'mass'-producer chose; part is because the pieces criticized are NOT up the the job for the long term. ...And, new guys who HAVEN'T built models will never know; they'll figure the failures were their fault. Many will quit at that point - why persist in something they can't handle?

If any AMA Dist IX people are in here, Doc isn't the only one who needs to communicate about how members in his District feel. Don't "vote?" - then don't gripe about who gets elected. PARTICIPATE!

On the other side, as I write this, 27 people have opted in the poll. The "votes" are too few to consider a valid image of how even the relatively few of us here in this forum feel. In this thread, a few people who feel strongly about their opinions have posted MANY times. The post count is less important than the number of different guys posting. Compared to several other threads, this one has a good number of different writers taking part.

And guys like Doc - I hope - also consider that the most vehement for or against anything are the ones, quite often, who dominate the issue if they can. A few shriekers may be hard on the ears, but their actual number in comparison to the "population" represented should be kept in mind. I didn't see any real shriekers in this discussion, but, yes, some strong opinions...

Rules is rules, as one of us posted. Long enduring rules can be changed, but their endurance adds some gravity to their existence. That should be kept in mind. Indirectly, it argues that many, many subject to the rule find nothing wrong with it, or nothing so dire that it must be changed. For those who kinda like the tradition - BOM in this thread, f'rinstance - things can be advanced further, faster with more likelihood of support, by using reasonable, convincing ideas. Regrettably, I hear a bit more shouting that, "It's broke! Throw it away! Right now if you're not a stupid, over-aged jerk!"

Stable rules have value. A guy coming back into CLPA, for example, after 20 or 30 years doing other things, finds a basically familiar thing still there... finds what he enjoyed last time around and wants some more of, now. Changing rules whenever anyone shouts loud enough, that we have to do it his way, isn't good for hanging onto the basics that attract the many retreads rejoining us. The shouting, alone, can put them off...

Sure, keep looking for ways to improve, enhance and make better any of our rules - but, please, let's go about it in the ways laid down to get it done. Stampedes trample more than they protect. And, if a vote occurs at the level that can change rules, and it is obviously fair, and representative of a majority the whole population involved, let's accept that. For the time being, at least. If it isn't what we wanted, we can still try to persuade others of our ideas. If they ARE winners, they'll win, eventually. Or, we can pack up our stuff and go elsewhere if we can't abide what the majority is happy with.
\BEST\LOU

Offline Bradley Walker

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Re: BOM Proposal
« Reply #115 on: October 14, 2007, 03:54:09 PM »
  Might I point out that many of those opposed to the BOm rule have a monetary reason for getting it thrown out.  They either are, or are planning to, produce ARFs, ARCs, or prebuilt components such as wings and Fuselages, and they are afraid that ANY BOM restrictions might hurt their business.
 

I am sorry Marvin, I expect better of you.

I expected to hear this kind of spin from the stunt politicians, and I figure it will be inevitable, but that is all it will be is *spin*.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2007, 04:15:00 PM by Bradley Walker »
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Offline Bradley Walker

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Re: BOM Proposal
« Reply #116 on: October 14, 2007, 03:57:39 PM »
I sure remember the 76 NATS, a bunch of Hunt wings including me and none of us thought for a second it was cheating.

1976.  The death of the BOM is not a recent phenomenon.

Punishing the current lines of ARC's, ARF, Quick Build Kits, etc and the people who want to use them, is hypocritical at best.

I think the only thing that has changed is that the BLINDERS are off now.  The state of the BOM, and the people who do, and do not follow it to the letter, has really has not changed.
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Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: BOM Proposal
« Reply #117 on: October 14, 2007, 04:21:42 PM »
I like the rule idea. Five points is not much of a deficit for using ARCs and similarly produced planes. A five point plus for building from scratch or an old time legit kit, little enough of an incentive. On the positive side it provides a systematic way for incorporating ARFs and ARCs in NATs competition. Very few of us can get a 17, 18, or 19, anyway. Seeing a club member's three years of work awarded 16 points at the NATs made that clear enough to me. Many modelers thought it an impressively executed original design, got him 16 points.  How many appearance points does a typical NATs Open winner get anyway?

Offline Marvin Denny

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Re: BOM Proposal
« Reply #118 on: October 14, 2007, 06:34:15 PM »
I am sorry Marvin, I expect better of you.

I expected to hear this kind of spin from the stunt politicians, and I figure it will be inevitable, but that is all it will be is *spin*.
  Bradly,  Did I name you??  I have been contacted with the concern I mentioned so I merely brought it to the attention of everyone so that they might consider that also---  Or did I step on your toes---- somehow???
  Bigiron
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Offline Marvin Denny

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Re: BOM Proposal
« Reply #119 on: October 14, 2007, 07:29:47 PM »
[quote author=Regardless of who you were talking about (which you did not state) it is still just *spin* and seems to come up in every discussion of the BOM and is usually used to take shots at John Brodak or anyone who works with Brodak Manufacturing. 

  Bradley, it is NOT spin when concerned people E-Mail me on the subject.!!!  I put it on this thread so that interested parties could CONSIDER THAT POSSIBILITY AND USE IT TO HELP THEM IN THEIR EVALUATION OF THE SUBJECT PROPOSAL.  I think that it could be an aid in EITHER direction the individuals wish to go.  It is just another factor for them to consider.
  I am not going to argue with you anymore on the evaluation of this item as you are starting to get personal and I want good pros and cons,  not drivel and nit picking.

  Bigiron
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Offline Randy Powell

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Re: BOM Proposal
« Reply #120 on: October 14, 2007, 10:41:12 PM »
Brad,

Do you have to go immediately to ad hominin arguments? You don't agree with the proposal. Great. I don't have any problems with that. You've stated some  valid points, it seems. I can tell you that getting rid of the BOM isn't going to make much difference in who becomes national champion. And the truth is, it wouldn't make much different in placing at our local contests. And I even agree that a lot of people cheat, even when they have convinced themselves that they aren't cheating. But I still make the same assertion. It's more productive to try to get people to adhere to a rule and make the rule paletable than to just give it up as a bad job.

The speed limit on the road I drive to work on is 60 MPH. I can tell you that maybe 50% of the people go the speed limit. Maybe. Cops come out in droves to give tickets but it doesn't seem to change folks behavior. They still speed on that road. Should we just drop the speed limit on that road because half the people don't obey it? The fact that they are putting everyone's lives in danger by drive 75+ on the road obviously doesn't enter into their heads. There are, on average, 12 fatalities on that road every year; usually by people that were speeding and yet they continue to speed. The cops usually increase patrols after a fatal crash for awhile, but soon, they thin out and folks go back to speeding on it.

Doesn't seem the solution is to just get rid of the speed limit because a lot of people don't abide by it.
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Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: BOM Proposal
« Reply #121 on: October 15, 2007, 12:53:57 AM »
ad hominem: (Latin: "argument to the person", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim.

Just looked this up (ad hominim- is the incorrect spelling, no big deal, slowed me down a little.) These days a prevalent technique of illogical discussion, don't you think. Attacking the person instead of the argument or logical case being presented.

Offline Bradley Walker

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Re: BOM Proposal
« Reply #122 on: October 15, 2007, 05:47:10 AM »
My post was deleted, great...

I was not attacking Marvin or anyone else.  Quite the contrary.  I was pointing out that this "follow the money" tact has been used before to slander people's motives, and especially how it relates to the BOM, and I even gave an example.  I was also pointing out that guys like Marvin should know better by now, instead of propagating these ideas.

I think bringing it up is "ad hominum" and in very bad form and has been used before (apparently it is still being used).

I was just pointing that out.  You guys seem to have missed it.
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: BOM Proposal
« Reply #123 on: October 15, 2007, 08:25:41 AM »
Marvin,  I for one did not vote for your proposal as originally posted.  It has some merit, as it comes from someone that has been at this a very long time.  Do you feel any older now.  One of the proposals that is on the AMA site is worth considering.  But, your proposal needs to be tried out to see if it works.  At least I would be gauranteed at least 15 points for my attempts at building.  Have fun,  DOC Holliday
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Offline Marvin Denny

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Re: BOM Proposal
« Reply #124 on: October 15, 2007, 10:36:22 AM »
  Yes Doc we did try it one year here in Wichita.  It made only one change in position from the standard method of awarding points for appearance.  I don't think that there would have been ANY change if the one instance in which the change occurred hav not have been mainly due to a missed needle setting by the one who came out on the short end of the stick on that case. 4 points difference.

  Doc I ran off the Rules proposals and we  (the Wichita stunters and Jim Kraft are going to get together and hash them out as we did last cycle and get the results to you  in the same form (who voted how on each proposal).
  Marvin
marvin Denny  AMA  499


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