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Author Topic: BOM change  (Read 19622 times)

Online Doug Moon

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Re: BOM change
« Reply #100 on: April 15, 2011, 08:04:24 PM »
Doug

from your post on parts the 'Builder' must make.
TOP and BOTTOM BLOCKS SANDED OR MOLDED.

This would make the Sig P-51 illegal.
Possibly the T.F. P-40 and Hurricane as well.
See post 79, 80 and 81

David
Trying to avoid open cans of worms, with out success. HB~>


Yes it would.  It can be easily taken out.  But then the whole starts over again.  It would be easy to add in a line about mass produced kits with pre molded parts.  Such as TF G nobler and others.  Mass produced meaning very large quantity available to the public.  Not off shoot runs of 20-100 once and never to be seen again.  Sig TF Sterling and other big ones were out there for everyone.

No we wont make everyone happy that is for sure.

But if you want this a building event as wells as a flying event then make it one.  I cant tell you the last time I saw a Sig Mustang kit on the shelves.

It would be even easier to write a grandfather clause for these types of models. 

Either way it can be delt with.
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Online Doug Moon

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Re: BOM change
« Reply #101 on: April 15, 2011, 08:12:09 PM »
I agree with that statement!

We do need to know what directions we can go in building 'Legal' airplanes.

A box full of molded parts gel coat or no, balsa, glass or cardboard is a kit.

A box with pre covered and finished parts(wing,fuse,tail) is not.

My understanding is Gel Coats original intended purpose was to protect the glass and polyester resin from UV and other such stuff. Model airplanes and race cars expose levels are low enough to make it not necessary.
It also eliminates the pin hole problems( from air bubbles)

The rules should not direct you what is legal building.  Simply because all the building is legal as long as you are the one doing it. 

It is that simple.  It really is that simple....

One you put in there one single legal scenario you have trapped yourself into describing all legal scenarios.  That cant be done and it makes the rule exclusive instead of inclusive.

If this rule is rewritten and scenarios are put in place then we are right back where we started only with different wording.  And as soon as new technology finds its way into our sport the rule wont allow it because it is not described as legal.

The rule only needs to say what has to be built NOT HOW.  Keep that in mind and the rule is actually very easy to write and pretty small and direct.
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Online Doug Moon

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Re: BOM change
« Reply #102 on: April 15, 2011, 08:31:45 PM »
Yes and no

The methods in use when I was doing 'glass work'

Mold release wax was hand applied and polished. Gives good slick finish ready to use when finish gel coat is use.
(molds are usually finished in 'tooling gel coat')

PVA mold release is a spray on plastic wrap like material. Leaves a textured finish that needs sanding and painting with or with out gel coat. water soluble so humidity can play games with it.

My preference would be no gel coat and vacuum bagging of the part. I think this will remove the trapped air bubbles
and remove excess resins for better weight to strength ratio.
This should produce a slick(using the wax method) pin hole free surface ready to wet sand and paint.
Never tried it so not sure.
A clear glass finis might be cool? ???

David


W.D.,

I have pulled a few using this method.  It took a few tries to get what I outlined below.  I worked with gel coat with a friend.  I wouldnt use that stuff again.

Polished with release wax.  Nice and slick after that.
Then I sprayed in PVA with high pressure on a top feed touch up gun.  Worked pretty good.
Down goes glass, put in a controlled amount of epoxy spread it all around.
Then I put in bleeder cloth, the cloth is like a one way valve and it absorbs all the epoxy.
In the bag for 24 hours.  

After that was done I had a very thin skin sitting in the mold.  I very carefully pulled the bleeder cloth so as not to pull the part out of the mold.  Now there is almost no epoxy in the skin.  

Next I use a controlled amount of epoxy and spread it over the back of the skin while it is in the mold.
In goes the 1/16 balsa layer
Then a layer of glass
Then just a tiny bit more epoxy spread onto the glasss.
Add a bleeder cloth on top of that and back into the bag for 24 more hours.

After that is done I pull the cloth off and trim away the excess.  It slides out of the mold with almost no effort.  Wash it off with water and clean away all the PVA.  The outer skin glass was a 1oz crows feet weave and had very little if any pin holes.  The inner glass was standard hobby glass .75 oz.

I did all this twice.  

Then using thin CA I glued the two shells together.  Each shell is full length and the tip shape is there as well.  Inside was the line slider and BC mount top and bottom.  Once glued together I put down once coat of primer and sanded almost all off and it went to color.  It was nice.  It was susceptible to crushing if you squeezed it.  It was totally hollow no inner structure.  I think the total weight with primer was 13oz.  

I flew it in a large Saito 72 profile for a long time.  It worked really well.

I never went back to it as I needed to make a new mold as this one has a small wave in it that I cant fill out.  

I may try it again one day.

Sure did learn alot doing.  And it was fun.  It was a complete female mold made from half foam cores that I cut myself.  Then i sheeted them and glued them to a really nice flat piece of hardwood. Built a fence around it and mixed up truckloads of epoxy with filler and molded it.  The back filled it with "other" stuff.  Spray in foam and other items to keep it sturdy.  The male mold was toasted afterward but i still have female.

It was fun.  That was back when I had more time to mess with that stuff.   :)!
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Offline Clint Ormosen

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Re: BOM change
« Reply #103 on: April 15, 2011, 09:55:14 PM »
Doug, your BOM rule as written seems to be a workable one. I would vote for something like that. As far as making a couple of defunct kits illegal, if it happens that someone actually wanted to fly one of those, it wouldn't be hard to make them BOM compliant. My SIG Mustang has no ABS parts used at all and only the plastic part is the canopy. Anyone could do the same to any plane.

Well done Sir.
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Offline Bill Little

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Re: BOM change
« Reply #104 on: April 16, 2011, 01:32:55 AM »
Since the BOM is in the general section of the rulebook for the entire AMA I wrote a general a while back.  I paired it way down, what do you all think.



Builder Of the Model

Contestants who enter their models in contests where the Builder Of the Model rule is in use must follow the specifics below.

Methods used to construct the model are not described and open to any and all forms of available technology as long as the contestant is the one using the technology to build the parts and plane.
   
In order to be considered the Builder Of the Model the contestant must build the major components of his/her model.  A list of parts that have to be built by the contestant are found below.

FOAM WINGS WHERE USED MUST BE SHEETED AND FINISHED BY THE BUILDER
BUILT UP WINGS
FUSELAGE
STABILIZERS
ELEVATORS
FLAPS
RUDDERS
TOP and BOTTOM BLOCKS SANDED OR MOLDED

The contestant must be the one who completes the final construction of the model into one piece.

Where take apart hardware is use the builder must also be the one who installs and sets the alignment of said hardware.

COVERING WHERE APPLICABLE MUST BE APPLIED BY THE BUILDER.

100% OF THE FINISH MUST BE APPLIED BY THE BUILDER, THIS INCLUDES FINAL CLEAR COAT WHERE APPLICABLE.

Methods used to finish the model are not described and open to any and all forms of available products as long as the contestant is the one applying the finish to the plane.

Contestants may receive help during any phase of the building and or finishing of the model.  As long as the contestant is doing the work and the help received is in a support and or teaching role.
[/color=blue]


Hi Doug,

I could live with that, and I do expect to return to the NATS to fly before i leave this rock.

However, pre sheeted foam wings have been "legal" for at least 40 years.  I do not see where we need to turn back the clock that far. ;D

Cmponents have become th enorm for many fliers, and we have not revolted against that so I would feel fine with there allowance.

The knee jerk reaction from 2005 (??) was wrong IMHO, but it was done and has been the "rule" for the recent years.  That ruling should not have been made (again, my own opinion) but it was done, evidently, to stave off possible protests, and was not in the best interest of the event, long term.

Bill
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Online Crist Rigotti

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Re: BOM change
« Reply #105 on: April 16, 2011, 01:20:58 PM »
I'm going to contact my PAPA district rep about this tyo see if PAMPA has any plans concerning this matter.
Crist
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Offline Larry Cunningham

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Re: BOM change
« Reply #106 on: April 17, 2011, 07:25:16 AM »
However, this issue continues to consume an amazing amount of time and effort that would be much better devoted to building and (and/or) flying model airplanes. I'm beyond sick of it, I'm numb and couldn't possibly care any more.

Argue amongst yourselves.

L.

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Offline Rafael Gonzalez

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Re: BOM change
« Reply #107 on: April 17, 2011, 08:13:16 AM »
I just don't get it. With only one event where this matters, why are so many opinions? This is "ONE" event. There are 100's of PA contest all over the USA. This (NATS) is a traditional contest. BUILD your own plane and stop trying to circumvent the rules. Use anything that is molded as long as it is built by you. This is beyond common sense. It is bordering on being a senile argument. I want to see beautiful aircraft built by the pilots themselves. When I see the photos or the actual aircraft in real time, I am in awe at the capabilities of the builder. I see also beautiful planes that are worth a lot since they are pre-made. But (in my opinion), they do not impress me as much. I am capable of painting a beautiful aircraft (NOT FLYING) if it only needs paint and sanding. I AM NOT capable of finishing a 20 AP points balsa, silk and dope masterpiece nor starting/making a CF wing/fuse. That is art and craftsmanship by itself.

We must create a separate class where any aircraft is accepted and concentrate on the flying. Perhaps an UNLIMITED class, only restricted by safety and engine size is  necessary.
Let's try and keep everyone updated to technology and able to fly C/L.

Best,

Rafael

Offline peabody

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Re: BOM change
« Reply #108 on: April 17, 2011, 08:40:49 AM »
Those "hundreds of contests" are all governed by the AMA rule book....

Offline RC Storick

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Re: BOM change
« Reply #109 on: April 17, 2011, 08:52:09 AM »
Those "hundreds of contests" are all governed by the AMA rule book....

But this ONE contest is the only one that flies JSO. So if your flying beginner,intermediate,advanced or expert it just don't matter. But heck if there is another JSO contest let me know where?

What I find funny is not one person has voted for last years BOM on the poll. So it must have been really great right?
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Offline Marvin Denny

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Re: BOM change
« Reply #110 on: April 17, 2011, 09:06:07 AM »
  It DOES matter in other contests Sparky.  If you are penalized so many "pretty points" that it is virtually impossible to win.   So why even enter?   And they wonder why fewer and fewer new fliers  partake of the stunt event.

  Bigiron
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Offline RC Storick

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Re: BOM change
« Reply #111 on: April 17, 2011, 11:39:54 AM »
 It DOES matter in other contests Sparky.  If you are penalized so many "pretty points" that it is virtually impossible to win.   So why even enter?   And they wonder why fewer and fewer new fliers  partake of the stunt event.

  Bigiron

Thats done at the local event. I dont know many contests here in the midwest but one ,our contest that has apperince points. So talk to local CDs no need to change the NATS. Seems to me its getting bigger

Or build
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Offline Randy Powell

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Re: BOM change
« Reply #112 on: April 17, 2011, 12:08:07 PM »
Doesn't seem to make a lot of difference here. Attendance has actually increased a bit over the past couple of years. The weather has more effect on attendance.
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Offline Rafael Gonzalez

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Re: BOM change
« Reply #113 on: April 17, 2011, 03:52:17 PM »
Those "hundreds of contests" are all governed by the AMA rule book....

I do not specifically follow each contest (PA) on each state but many contests do list that "no BOM" rule on their requirements and allow the participant to fly. There is the PAMPA rule that lets you fly but no points will be awarded for AP. AMA only says that if the contest is to have any modifications, it should be posted in advance. And it lets a consensus majority decide the rule deviation at the site! ABSURD!! HB~> HB~>  n~ How would you like to travel 1000 miles to a contest that advertises no BOM will be enforced and when you get there, the majority doesn't let you fly because you showed up with a TF SCORE? That is absurd and it doesn't promote participation in the hobby.   HB~>
From the AMA...

"...Contests advertised to the public and to model aviation clubs as AMA-approved events must be sanctioned by the AMA. Potential contestants must be assured that the AMA Competition Regulations will apply. Because AMA Sanctions exist to promote national standards, each Contest Director shall enforce the AMA Competition Regulations as written for Class A-AAAAA competitions unless overriding concerns about safety, adverse weather, dangerous terrain, or other serious issues dictate otherwise. Proposed deviations from the AMA rules must be detailed as part of the pre-contest sanction request. Such changes will be reviewed by the Technical Director for, 1) possible safety or procedural concern, 2) determination of whether the deviations will be allowed, and 3) which sanction status, „A” or “C” will be assigned. IF additional guidance is needed or in the case of an appeal, the Contest Board Coordinator and the Contest Board Chairman for the event(s) in question will be included in the decision process. The details for AMA sanctioned contests to be conducted with rules deviations must be announced in advance (e.g. by advertisement in Model Aviation; club newsletter; flyers; etc) and, if possible, by notice directed to clubs (e.g., by the Internet; FAX; etc). The intent should be to inform as many potential contestants as possible before travel, especially out-of-towners. Rules deviations either announced in advance of contests or by necessity first announced just prior to the competitions due to immediate concerns, must not be arbitrary, involve personal bias, or unnecessarily violate the competitive tone and historical integrity of any event. AMA CDs should recognize that modelers are willing to deal with reasonable hardships in order to compete under long-accepted traditional rules. Therefore, the consensus opinion of a majority of contestants involved should be considered regarding rules deviations announced on site.


Offline john e. holliday

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Re: BOM change
« Reply #114 on: April 17, 2011, 07:45:27 PM »
What is the average for appearance points at a contest?   How many get 20 points at a local contest or even a regional.  The most I have ever gotten was 12 and thought the judge was veryl generous, but I wasn't going to tell him tho.   VD~
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Offline Bill Little

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Re: BOM change
« Reply #115 on: April 18, 2011, 03:14:25 AM »
What is the average for appearance points at a contest?   How many get 20 points at a local contest or even a regional.  The most I have ever gotten was 12 and thought the judge was veryl generous, but I wasn't going to tell him tho.   VD~

HI Doc,

I have no idea what the AP range is anymore at local meets.

It has literally been YEARS since I attended a local event that used AP.  I believe the last ones I went to with AP was King Orange and Brodak in 2003.  We haven't used it at Huntersville or Marietta for years.  As for local contests I gave up on AP a long time ago, and do not care if local meets do not use BOM/AP.  I cannot remember what I got at Brodak but I did get 17 or 18 at Flushing Meadows when I went there, and finished 2nd to Windy and one of his Spitfires in Concours.  By the time I got to Brodak's, the same plane was 7 years old.......... ;D
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Offline John Stiles

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Re: BOM change
« Reply #116 on: April 18, 2011, 06:44:12 AM »
What is the average for appearance points at a contest?   How many get 20 points at a local contest or even a regional.  The most I have ever gotten was 12
Hi Doc, maybe you shoulda cut off your ear and glued it to the plane. I'll never find out, because I don't have enough Monet to buy Degas to make the Van Gogh LL~
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Offline Bob Reeves

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Re: BOM change
« Reply #117 on: April 18, 2011, 07:35:58 AM »
In Tulsa we have been using Marvin's idea of assigning appearance points depending on the amount of building the pilot did. It has been working very well and have had no complaints from anyone. I still do not understand why the whole stunt community isn't embracing this idea. It eliminates all the BOM controversy and we have proven it works.

Bought-Borrowed-Stolen 0 points
ARF 1-10 points
ARC or prebuilt parts 5-15 points
Kit/Scratch built 10-20 points

The guy that uses a pre-built wing automatically leaves 5 points on the table no matter how well the airplane is finished. Yes it is possible for a kit-built to score less than an ARC but it has to be pretty bad and the ARC has to be pretty good. If they both show the same quality in fit and finish the scratch/kit receives an automatic 5 point advantage.

SoapBoxOn... This whole thing reminds me of the on-going controversy on Open Carry of Firearms we have going here in Oklahoma. The ones that say all or nothing are most likely to get nothing. It would be better and we might actually get something accomplished if everyone was willing to compromise a little and meet in the middle.  SoapBoxOff....

Offline RC Storick

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Re: BOM change
« Reply #118 on: April 18, 2011, 08:21:29 AM »
Problem is it is a very small minority who squeaks the loudest. If it were the majority something might happen. Did you notice Minority?? less than 10%
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Offline Balsa Butcher

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Re: BOM change
« Reply #119 on: April 18, 2011, 08:42:00 AM »
I like Marvin's proposal...did when it first was published about a year ago. A scenario: If BOM points were eliminated a few new folks may start competing. A few old folks would drop AMA stunt and specialize in Classic and Nostalgia where building efforts are still appreciated and rewarded. Many of the new folks would find that even without the handicap of not getting appearance points...they still don't win. They would drop out and go back to R/C helicopters or whatever...attendance in AMA stunt would drop to an all time low and people would wonder what went wrong. Ok, not just a scenario, a prediction.  8) 
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Offline Bob Reeves

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Re: BOM change
« Reply #120 on: April 18, 2011, 08:48:49 AM »
Problem is it is a very small minority who squeaks the loudest. If it were the majority something might happen. Did you notice Minority?? less than 10%

Problem really is that only a small portion of the actual stunt community participates in these on-line discussions and votes in your poles. Your results sure don't agree with what I have heard talking face to face with contest entrants. Both ends of the controversy have a few real loud squeakers but most are somewhere in the middle. A good benchmark is to look at how many ARC's and pre-built wings have been sold. Which position do you think the guy that buys and ARC or built wing will take. We have been operating under don't ask don't tell for so long I believe the actual majority is afraid to say anything.

Offline Bob Reeves

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Re: BOM change
« Reply #121 on: April 18, 2011, 09:01:04 AM »
I like Marvin's proposal...did when it first was published about a year ago. A scenario: If BOM points were eliminated a few new folks may start competing. A few old folks would drop AMA stunt and specialize in Classic and Nostalgia where building efforts are still appreciated and rewarded. Many of the new folks would find that even without the handicap of not getting appearance points...they still don't win. They would drop out and go back to R/C helicopters or whatever...attendance in AMA stunt would drop to an all time low and people would wonder what went wrong. Ok, not just a scenario, a prediction.  8) 

Again from what I have heard face to face most do not want to eliminate the BOM they just want the BS to stop. Marvin's idea would stop the BS and be inclusive instead of exclusive. The only real argument I've heard against it is something about the Walker Cup which is kinda ironic as we all know Jim Walker invented the ARF and the cup flyoff doesn't include pretty points.

Offline RC Storick

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Re: BOM change
« Reply #122 on: April 18, 2011, 09:45:50 AM »
That's not what the PAMPA poll produced. My polls mean nothing but PAMPA's are a good indicator. I can name all the ones on one hand (well maybe two). Also I dont have a problem with Marvins rule.
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Offline wwwarbird

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Re: BOM change
« Reply #123 on: April 18, 2011, 10:31:21 PM »
 I'm going to offer some more input here that hopefully helps give some ideas toward a future BOM rule decision, if there ever is one. My input is only intended to be some suggested points on trying to keep any potential finalized rule as simple as possible. It is also with the assumption that a BOM rule, using the term Builder, will even exist after all of this.

(First, I would agree and also suggest that to accommodate those that have been building new models under the 2010 rule, that for 2011 those same previous rules should be used. This would also allow time for a proper and clear minded decision on whatever the new rule may or may not be.)

 With my own deep respect and admiration of what I will call our "Forefathers of Stunt" my thoughts and suggestions are largely a desire to respect, honor and maintain the history of the Stunt event and to those builders and fliers. These guys and the models they built were idolized by many of us, and the reason we became interested in the first place. Personally, I would hate to see the art of truly building and finishing a flying model airplane lost to generations.
 Call me old fashioned, but too many good things in our world have been lost to nothing more than whining and foot stomping. That general attitude has become a cancer to America. It needs to stop, it really needs to stop. What makes me so upset about this entire BOM “debate” is that it has become just another example of just that, whining and foot stomping to get ones way.
 Obviously many things have evolved and changed in the sport of Control Line competition, but I feel like most of it can be incorporated into an updated rule while maintaining the original intent and integrity of BUILDER of Model if people would just settle down.  

 I feel the definitions of the historical and common terms that have been tossed around throughout the so-called BOM "debate" are all obvious and known. This is at least to everyone involved except those who choose to play dumb and continue this childish arguing.

 Now, on with some ideas. For our purpose here, "construct" means to build, as in BUILDER of model. It does not mean to manufacture like some are trying to say. ARF's, ARC's, most composites and the like are all to some level pre-constructed. This means portions of the airframe have been pre-built. This also means that those same portions were NOT BUILT by the flier, so they would not be considered BOM compliant.

 ARF, ARC, pre-covered or not, it does not matter, portions of the models airframe have been PRE-BUILT by someone other than the flier.

 In my opinion I feel that the term "Average Kit" has become obsolete and I feel that wording should be taken out altogether. I also say that because these days it just opens up room for argument with the way "kits" have evolved. Taking out that one single term would help things a LOT. There is no longer such a thing as an "Average Kit". I wouldn't even use the word "kit" anywhere, it just opens up things for argument. I also strongly suggest not using any wording that refers to how much time is spent on a model or any part of it. No reason to even mention that, everyone builds at a different rate anyway.

 If and when the dust ever settles, any finalized BOM rule needs to refer to the airframe itself. That really is the meat of the whole issue.

 "Airframe" can be described as the fuselage(s), wing(s), all flying surfaces, and whatever covering and/or finish is used. If there are composite airframe components used, like those described above and that form any exterior surface of the model, they would have to be molded and/or formed by the flier. Pre-manufactured foam wing cores could be used because they do not directly form the finished exterior surface of the model. (Pre-sheeted, unfinished, foam wing sections could be “Grandfathered” in only on the pretense that they have already been allowed for years.)
 In an attempt to clarify, when I mention “composite” I'm primarily talking about molded structures forming any exterior portion of the models airframe that could potentially be used in an unfinished (uncovered or unpainted) state. The skin of a fuselage or wing would be examples of that and also to include any internal structure used within them. I'm not saying those forms of construction or designs couldn't be used, it's just they would just have to be created from the get-go by the flier.  
 With “composite” I don't mean the purchase and use of coverings such as silkspan, polyspan, monokote or fiberglass etc., that's going over any kind of structure. Any purchased materials used, or construction tasks performed to do with the “Airframe”, would have to be done by the flier who would also be the builder. Performing these tasks would be defining BUILDER OF MODEL in a proper sense.

  So no, like some of these guys are exaggerating, they wouldn't have to “grow their own balsa trees” or “make their own covering”.  

  Additional items and components such as engines and exhausts, control systems, landing gear, wheels and wheelpants, props and spinners, covering and/or paint and hardware items can be termed "Accessories". These are items that can be purchased and used, but have to be installed and/or applied by the flier.

 In the end there would only be two things to look at, "Airframe" and "Accessories". Very easy understand, and also easy to define.

 Bottom line, people need to read and remember the name of the rule. BUILDER OF MODEL. That term is not hard to figure out, it is simple and easily defined.

 People and potential competitors are utterly sick of this “debate” and it’s going to have an even more negative effect if things aren’t resolved soon.

 If an agreement can't be reached that maintains true BUILDER requirements at least similar to what I've described above, I would have to agree that the rule just be omitted altogether. That would be a terribly sad day however, and also be a large slap in the face of the modeling history we've created. But people don't seem to care much about history or respect anymore these days. I'm glad I'm not one of them.


 Happy Building,

 Wayne
Narrowly averting disaster since 1964! 

Wayne Willey
Albert Lea, MN U.S.A. IC C/L Aircraft Modeler, Ex AMA member

Offline Derek Barry

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Re: BOM change
« Reply #124 on: April 19, 2011, 05:33:31 AM »
I'm going to offer some more input here that hopefully helps give some ideas toward a future BOM rule decision, if there ever is one. My input is only intended to be some suggested points on trying to keep any potential finalized rule as simple as possible. It is also with the assumption that a BOM rule, using the term Builder, will even exist after all of this.

(First, I would agree and also suggest that to accommodate those that have been building new models under the 2010 rule, that for 2011 those same previous rules should be used. This would also allow time for a proper and clear minded decision on whatever the new rule may or may not be.)

 With my own deep respect and admiration of what I will call our "Forefathers of Stunt" my thoughts and suggestions are largely a desire to respect, honor and maintain the history of the Stunt event and to those builders and fliers. These guys and the models they built were idolized by many of us, and the reason we became interested in the first place. Personally, I would hate to see the art of truly building and finishing a flying model airplane lost to generations.
 Call me old fashioned, but too many good things in our world have been lost to nothing more than whining and foot stomping. That general attitude has become a cancer to America. It needs to stop, it really needs to stop. What makes me so upset about this entire BOM “debate” is that it has become just another example of just that, whining and foot stomping to get ones way.
 Obviously many things have evolved and changed in the sport of Control Line competition, but I feel like most of it can be incorporated into an updated rule while maintaining the original intent and integrity of BUILDER of Model if people would just settle down.  

 I feel the definitions of the historical and common terms that have been tossed around throughout the so-called BOM "debate" are all obvious and known. This is at least to everyone involved except those who choose to play dumb and continue this childish arguing.

 Now, on with some ideas. For our purpose here, "construct" means to build, as in BUILDER of model. It does not mean to manufacture like some are trying to say. ARF's, ARC's, most composites and the like are all to some level pre-constructed. This means portions of the airframe have been pre-built. This also means that those same portions were NOT BUILT by the flier, so they would not be considered BOM compliant.

 ARF, ARC, pre-covered or not, it does not matter, portions of the models airframe have been PRE-BUILT by someone other than the flier.

 In my opinion I feel that the term "Average Kit" has become obsolete and I feel that wording should be taken out altogether. I also say that because these days it just opens up room for argument with the way "kits" have evolved. Taking out that one single term would help things a LOT. There is no longer such a thing as an "Average Kit". I wouldn't even use the word "kit" anywhere, it just opens up things for argument. I also strongly suggest not using any wording that refers to how much time is spent on a model or any part of it. No reason to even mention that, everyone builds at a different rate anyway.

 If and when the dust ever settles, any finalized BOM rule needs to refer to the airframe itself. That really is the meat of the whole issue.

 "Airframe" can be described as the fuselage(s), wing(s), all flying surfaces, and whatever covering and/or finish is used. If there are composite airframe components used, like those described above and that form any exterior surface of the model, they would have to be molded and/or formed by the flier. Pre-manufactured foam wing cores could be used because they do not directly form the finished exterior surface of the model. (Pre-sheeted, unfinished, foam wing sections could be “Grandfathered” in only on the pretense that they have already been allowed for years.)
 In an attempt to clarify, when I mention “composite” I'm primarily talking about molded structures forming any exterior portion of the models airframe that could potentially be used in an unfinished (uncovered or unpainted) state. The skin of a fuselage or wing would be examples of that and also to include any internal structure used within them. I'm not saying those forms of construction or designs couldn't be used, it's just they would just have to be created from the get-go by the flier.  
 With “composite” I don't mean the purchase and use of coverings such as silkspan, polyspan, monokote or fiberglass etc., that's going over any kind of structure. Any purchased materials used, or construction tasks performed to do with the “Airframe”, would have to be done by the flier who would also be the builder. Performing these tasks would be defining BUILDER OF MODEL in a proper sense.

  So no, like some of these guys are exaggerating, they wouldn't have to “grow their own balsa trees” or “make their own covering”.  

  Additional items and components such as engines and exhausts, control systems, landing gear, wheels and wheelpants, props and spinners, covering and/or paint and hardware items can be termed "Accessories". These are items that can be purchased and used, but have to be installed and/or applied by the flier.

 In the end there would only be two things to look at, "Airframe" and "Accessories". Very easy understand, and also easy to define.

 Bottom line, people need to read and remember the name of the rule. BUILDER OF MODEL. That term is not hard to figure out, it is simple and easily defined.

 People and potential competitors are utterly sick of this “debate” and it’s going to have an even more negative effect if things aren’t resolved soon.

 If an agreement can't be reached that maintains true BUILDER requirements at least similar to what I've described above, I would have to agree that the rule just be omitted altogether. That would be a terribly sad day however, and also be a large slap in the face of the modeling history we've created. But people don't seem to care much about history or respect anymore these days. I'm glad I'm not one of them.


 Happy Building,

 Wayne

Well said!

Offline John Stiles

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Re: BOM change
« Reply #125 on: April 19, 2011, 06:30:39 AM »
Now, on with some ideas. For our purpose here, "construct" means to build, as in BUILDER of model. It does not mean to manufacture like some are trying to say. ARF's, ARC's, most composites and the like are all to some level pre-constructed. This means portions of the airframe have been pre-built. This also means that those same portions were NOT BUILT by the flier, so they would not be considered BOM compliant.

Well, there ya go, and that's how things evolve. Now, from "covering" we have added "construction of airframe"! Those old forefathers didn't start building their planes with all this in mind. Respecting their building skills is all well and good, but the "hobby" is a far cry from what it was back then. A bunch of restrictive rules have been added since then. And who says every one of those "founding fathers" of yore, built their own planes? I can't believe that! In fact, I'll lay odds on it that some builders were building "flying surfaces(wings)" for other not-so-skilled builders. And then's when the rule making began.  D>K
John Stiles             Tulip, Ar.

Offline Derek Barry

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Re: BOM change
« Reply #126 on: April 19, 2011, 07:48:13 AM »
Well, there ya go, and that's how things evolve. Now, from "covering" we have added "construction of airframe"! Those old forefathers didn't start building their planes with all this in mind. Respecting their building skills is all well and good, but the "hobby" is a far cry from what it was back then. A bunch of restrictive rules have been added since then. And who says every one of those "founding fathers" of yore, built their own planes? I can't believe that! In fact, I'll lay odds on it that some builders were building "flying surfaces(wings)" for other not-so-skilled builders. And then's when the rule making began.  D>K

Well, I have found that most people at the "higher level" of competition build their own planes simply because they don't trust anyone else to do it the way they want it done. Think what you want, but I am certain that the people I concider to be the "forefathers" of this event did build their own planes. They had to do more construction than we do now because a lot of the things we use were not available then.

Where do you get your info?

Derek Barry

Offline RC Storick

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Re: BOM change
« Reply #127 on: April 19, 2011, 08:00:18 AM »
This is all about doing away with the BOM.
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Offline Bob Reeves

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Re: BOM change
« Reply #128 on: April 19, 2011, 08:54:10 AM »
This is all about doing away with the BOM.

I don't think it is, I think it's all about stopping the bickering and as a last resort doing away with BOM would do that. However we do know that the majority is actually in favor of some form of BOM rule even the ones that would like to see pre-built componets legal.

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Re: BOM change
« Reply #129 on: April 19, 2011, 08:57:24 AM »
I can remember a recent rule change to take away pattern points. Hum they are back now. get my drift?
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Re: BOM change
« Reply #130 on: April 19, 2011, 02:51:49 PM »
Whatever is done about the BOM it had better go through the normal rules change cycle....this crap about changing it mid-stream is in violation of AMA rules.
I am fairly certain that you will see the AMA revert to the 2005 BOM ruling......what they did in going to the pre 2005 rule was WAY outside the bounds and guidelines that the AMA sets forth for non-safety changes.......

Offline peabody

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Re: BOM change
« Reply #131 on: April 19, 2011, 03:28:10 PM »
Actually, the ruling that Kaluf got through in 2005 is a good rule.....it allows ARCs and aircraft constructed of pre-built components to be flown but dis-allows ARFs. Further it stresses the import of "finish"...

The issue is that Bill chose to enforce the rule as written, and he was neutered by the AMA, who pointed out that the ED couldn't disqualify entries unless they were protested....

The 2005 ruling allows the two or three dozen folks that supply various components (including unfinished airframes) to continue, but excludes "finishing".....what's not to love?


Offline Randy Powell

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Re: BOM change
« Reply #132 on: April 19, 2011, 04:03:09 PM »
Really, Rich?
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Re: BOM change
« Reply #133 on: April 19, 2011, 06:53:46 PM »

Whatever is done about the BOM it had better go through the normal rules change cycle....this crap about changing it mid-stream is in violation of AMA rules.

(Clip)


Hi Rich.

Just to clarify what you wrote above.

The AMA Contest Board Procedures do allow for several categories or types of "Off Cycle Proposals"  including provisions for "Urgent Proposals" that can be completed in about a 60 day process, then published and made official.  That is what is going on right now regarding a soon to be completed action to clarify the handle issue that started at the Nats last year.  That is still an option being considered by the Aerobatics Contest Board regarding the changed BOM rule in the general section of the AMA rulebook.

Thank you for your interest and concern.

Keith Trostle

Offline peabody

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Re: BOM change
« Reply #134 on: April 19, 2011, 07:13:37 PM »
Thanks, Keith....
I interpret those rule changes that can be completed in 60 days that are NOT safety or governing an entirely new realm (like steam powered stunters).
\Interpretations are NOT part of the interpertation as I read it....
Changes to the BOM should be brought through the regular rules cycle....
 

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Re: BOM change
« Reply #135 on: April 19, 2011, 08:22:03 PM »
Like they did to us in 05? On  the spot under the pavilion?
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: BOM change
« Reply #136 on: April 19, 2011, 09:00:33 PM »
Somebody said some where that AMA doesn't change things over night.   I remember the 70 Glenview Nats when they made a ruling that the pilot could not start his own engine in combat.   My last NATS combat competition. 
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Offline Steve Hines

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Re: BOM change
« Reply #137 on: April 19, 2011, 09:33:37 PM »
As I read it if the airframe does not come in a kit you can't use it. The way it allways go if the cd likes it, it ok and if not to bad. If past practice ok than it ok for everything. People have tomake up there mind on what they want. Then and only than enforce the rules to the letter.

Offline RC Storick

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Re: BOM change
« Reply #138 on: April 19, 2011, 10:13:51 PM »
It doesnt matter how we word it. Someone will argue the points. Its really simple. Build your own plane.

I hear all the time, I have not time. One less Hr a day watching TV and in no time you will have built a airplane.
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Online Howard Rush

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Re: BOM change
« Reply #139 on: April 19, 2011, 10:25:23 PM »
Somebody said some where that AMA doesn't change things over night.   I remember the 70 Glenview Nats when they made a ruling that the pilot could not start his own engine in combat.   My last NATS combat competition. 

I don't remember that one.  I thought it was a pretty good contest.
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Offline Steve Hines

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Re: BOM change
« Reply #140 on: April 19, 2011, 11:02:53 PM »
Robert this is a great site, I'm to old for j&s and never fly in the open. I would just like see younger people get in to CL. Get them hooked and then move them up to be great builders and flyers. The closest Field to me is over 70 miles from my house. I found a rc club that will let me fly that is 20 miles away. My brother and I are trying to get a club together. Two people makes a small club. I see all Kinds of young people in the old photo's posted. The last contest pic posted show people that Know the words to the same songs that I know. I dont want to see bom go away, just like to see a progression of the rules as the classes go up. I dont have all the answer's, but do we do to make this great sport grow.

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: BOM change
« Reply #141 on: April 20, 2011, 05:58:27 AM »
I don't remember that one.  I thought it was a pretty good contest.

I remember it very well.  My Brother Bob had a camper on a 1/2 ton pickup.  The four of us stayed in it on one of short runways on base with other campers.  Our first year in Goodyear Racing and I was also flying Carrier.  Had to cover the engine on my plane when Duke Fox came over to say hi and then admit to him I was running a different brand of fuel.  If I remember right you guys were busy in the work hanger covering and straightening your planes for competition.  That was also the first year I seen John Ballard.  He stood out because of some of his antics.  Great man once you get to know him.  My Brother also got to help a jet speed team during one of their runs.  Enough got to go to work.   H^^
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Offline peabody

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Re: BOM change
« Reply #142 on: April 20, 2011, 06:28:04 AM »
Safety issues may cause virtually instant rules changes, per the Competition Regulations.

Offline Bob Reeves

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Re: BOM change
« Reply #143 on: April 20, 2011, 08:26:42 AM »
Just a thought.. When the 2005 interpretation went through one rules change cycle and remained in the rules, it then became official by default. Taking it out now without going through the proper process of a rule change is wrong and should be corrected.

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: BOM change
« Reply #144 on: April 20, 2011, 08:30:24 AM »
Now explain that to the AMA powers that are now in. VD~
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Offline Bob Reeves

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Re: BOM change
« Reply #145 on: April 20, 2011, 08:47:49 AM »
Now explain that to the AMA powers that are now in. VD~

Just sent this email to Greg Hahn.

Hi Greg,
 
I am one that believes the recent rule change in Control Line Builder Of The model was wrong and against AMA policy. I believe when the 2005 interpretation went through one rules change cycle and remained in the rules, it then became official by default. Taking it out now without going through the proper process of a rule change is wrong, blatantly against AMA policy and should be corrected.
 
Regards,
Bob Reeves, AMA # 57676

Offline Chuck Feldman

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Re: BOM change
« Reply #146 on: April 21, 2011, 06:40:22 PM »
This is incredible.  How can this discussion continue to go on? I stopped reading all this two weeks ago and had hoped it would die by now. I have little to say on this subject. But I can compare it to the national debt problem. This discussion going on and on and no where at all shows me how the congress can be so poorly managing the country. So long live CLPA. Long live BOM or Non Bom. Will someone please address nose weight and tip weight and hinging as I do not understand the relationship. Thanks
Chuck Feldman
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Offline Chuck Feldman

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Re: BOM change
« Reply #147 on: April 21, 2011, 07:04:30 PM »
 LL~ LL~ LL~  TY you cracked me up!!!!!!!!   But I do believe it is incest LOL ;D ;D ;D
Chuck Feldman
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: BOM change
« Reply #148 on: April 22, 2011, 08:59:14 AM »
Well you guys that were worried about your new plane being legal, you now have no worries.  It seems that the AMA has rescended a bit.   They are going with what we had last year.  So if it was legal last year it will be legal this year.   But, we now have to come up with something that will please the masses.   By the way we will have to thank Keith Trostle for all the work he has done to get this done.   H^^
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Offline Robert Schroeder

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Re: BOM change
« Reply #149 on: April 22, 2011, 03:06:48 PM »
Wayne, fwiw I agree with you.  John, I'm clueless!
Going back to '53, the "average kit" was/is/as meant to be is a box of wood with some pieces cut/crushed/dug out with plans to make an airplane.  This is the same thing that is bought from Brodak or RSM.  Everybody knows this.  To say someone doesn't is idiotic.  The only thing hard about this whole BOM "problem" is the lawyers.  But then it depends upon what your definition of "is" is.  Everyone knows what the BOM is, both its original design and intent.  The only thing that has changed in the entire hobby/sport is prefabrication.  The question is whether we want to allow prefabricated parts/planes to compete.
When I found I was able to stand long enough to fly a CL plane for an entire flight, I jumped back into it with both feet.  When I crashed my only model, I was offered one with which to go to a contest.  I protested thinking I had to have built the plane myself in order to compete and was advised that beginners were not subject to the BOM.  I bought the plane and then competed.  I'm still in beginner, flying a combination of self built, OPs and arfs.  If I ever get out of beginner, I guess all my planes will be self built.  I think BOM should be kept.  In beginner, it doesn't affect me.  If I progress, it will.  That sure won't keep me from building and flying.  If one thinks that way, imho they weren't really interested to begin with.  The only reason I haven't progressed is that I can't fly more than 6 flights in a day.  Then I am in major pain for a couple of days.  But then it's worth it.  And no, I'm not handicapped.  I'm just a half a crip. 
Most contests I've attended had BOM/appearance points for, at least, advanced and expert, possibly also for intermediate.  I've never heard any complaining.
I think we should "kill all the lawyers" and get back to what this hobby/sport is all about.  After all, everybody knows what happens when you cry in your beer!

Bob
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