Boeing's "Stuck" Cargo Jet

[Steve Helmick]

The "news" media says that Boeing is "red faced" about this. It would certainly be partially the pilot/co-pilot's problem, but doesn't Air Traffic Control tell these guys when to turn onto various headings on their landing approach? I'm not a licensed pilot, obviously.

Anyway, it seems to me that the pilot(s) probably knew where they were going, but ATC must have given them bad info? Was it FAA or USAF ATC? But regardless, doesn't that make this all Obama's fault?  Steve

[Matt Colan]

The "news" media says that Boeing is "red faced" about this. It would certainly be partially the pilot/co-pilot's problem, but doesn't Air Traffic Control tell these guys when to turn onto various headings on their landing approach? I'm not a licensed pilot, obviously.

Anyway, it seems to me that the pilot(s) probably knew where they were going, but ATC must have given them bad info? Was it FAA or USAF ATC? But regardless, doesn't that make this all Obama's fault?  Steve

The airplane is being operated by Atlas Air. When you look from overhead, the runway they landed on is almost in direct line with the Air Force Base they were cleared to land on.

From what I've been able to gather is the pilots thought the entire time they were landing at the AFB, not where they actually landed.

[Ted Fancher]

The "news" media says that Boeing is "red faced" about this. It would certainly be partially the pilot/co-pilot's problem, but doesn't Air Traffic Control tell these guys when to turn onto various headings on their landing approach? I'm not a licensed pilot, obviously.

Anyway, it seems to me that the pilot(s) probably knew where they were going, but ATC must have given them bad info? Was it FAA or USAF ATC? But regardless, doesn't that make this all Obama's fault?   Steve

Steve,

My WAG is that the weather was decent and they were cleared for a visual approach and told to contact the tower at McConnell AFB () where they were destined.  There are several airports in the vicinity with main runways running northeast/southwest including the air base, the main Wichita airport, the Beechcraft aircraft factory airport and the airport they landed at whose name I don't recall.  

If the flight crew was unfamiliar with the area and the pilot flying had the little airport in sight he might well have told Air Traffic Control he had the field, ATC would have cleared them for a visual approach, told them to contact the tower and then forgot about them.

They would have then contacted the McConnell tower and they, if they had no other traffic, might have simply cleared them to land.  The airport at which they ultimately landed does not have a control tower and any small aircraft operating there would have had no idea they were inbound to the little airport.  Fortunately there was no traffic conflict with other users, the big Boeing landed and probably quickly discovered their error as the end of the runway came up much too quickly.  Knowing full well taking off without specific calculations for weight, temperature runway length and airport altitude etc. the crew had little choice but to own up to their error.

Strange as it may seem to the lay person who thinks big jets are shepherded from portal to portal by ATC , a wrong airport landing is not all that rare.  A United Airlines DC-8, for instance, once landed at Troutdale airport a dozen or so miles east of Portland International after a visual   approach.  To answer your un-asked question...no, I wasn't flying it!

FWIW, most air carriers (pretty much as a result of mistakes such as these) require flight crews to tune and monitor all appropriate navigational aids for the airport and runway of intended landing even if the weather is clear and the visibility unlimited.  This is especially important at night or at airports with which the flight crews aren't intimately familiar!  As you can imagine, there is pretty much nothing more embarrassing to the guy with the four stripes than to have to advise the passengers they're going to have to complete their journey in a Greyhound!

Ted

[Tim Wescott]

Strange as it may seem to the lay person who thinks big jets are shepherded from portal to portal by ATC , a wrong airport landing is not all that rare.  A United Airlines DC-8, for instance, once landed at Troutdale airport a dozen or so miles east of Portland International after a visual   approach.  To answer your un-asked question...no, I wasn't flying it!

East county residents (Clackamas and Multnomah) are proud to refer to it as Troutdale International Airport, thanks to that incident.

(The story I heard was that the pilot had never flown into PDX, but had heard stories about how small the runways were.  So there he was, flying an approach down the Columbia river and there was this airport just to the left of the river, with itty bitty runways -- so he landed.  I dunno if it's true, but it sure makes a good story.)

[Steve Helmick]

Depth perception sucks at night...probably worse in fog..., and all those lights must get very confusing. I'm sympathetic to the fly boys, really I am. I appreciate Ted's 'splaination of the way it works. You too, Matt!

I never could understand anything the ATC was saying (when Dad was flying). I'd heard about the Troutdale Muni boondoggle many years ago. But this Boeing thing sounds like it oughta be a "milk run" situation...how could it not be, when they only have 4 each 747's specially modified for flying 787 bits around the world?

I still don't see why corporate Boeing should be "red faced". The pilots, sure. Hey, these weren't the same Boeing test pilots that ran the restored Boeing 307 Stratoliner out of gas and landed it in Elliott Bay, surely?  Steve

[wwwarbird]

The airplane is being operated by Atlas Air. When you look from overhead, the runway they landed on is almost in direct line with the Air Force Base they were cleared to land on.

From what I've been able to gather is the pilots thought the entire time they were landing at the AFB, not where they actually landed.

 Yep, that's basically what happened.

 A friend of mine (who I had dinner with with earlier tonight) is buddies with a guy who was originally scheduled to be copilot on the flight. That guy had scratched for some reason and ended up not going. Sounds like the two runways involved are about 8 miles from each other, but run in the same direction. Once the pilot makes his turn and lines up for the visual approach they're pretty much just looking through the glass, aiming at the runway, and looking to grease it in. Then, once they stop they'll roll down the window and holler to the ramp crew, "Hey! Where are we?"

 Well, maybe not that last part.

[Dan McEntee]

    When I first read about this, I think I read that visibility was at four miles, and as stated at night. Given that it was THIS airplane, and the cargo that it was carrying, I would figure that SOP for all landings in anything other than day time and clear blue skies would be on instruments. A friend of mine was working on his pilots license and was flying his first cross country and return flight that originated here in St. Louis, cross country to Quincy, Illinois, touch and go and return. Quincy has a tower, but is a small airport, and I don't think there is any scheduled flights in or out.  My buddy says he radioed ahead for a visual approach for a touch and go, and was cleared for a specific runway. He said he got sight of the field, made his approach, and touched down. As he was rolling along on the ground, he looked to hid right and saw a row of F-16 fighters. A million things raced through his mind in a few seconds, and he figured that he wasn't in Quincy, Illinois! As he put the power back up and took off, he realized he was in Springfield, Illinois! He made his turn and headed back to the airport he took off from, and the whole way back he was getting his story straight in his head. When he landed, he said that an FAA guy was waiting for him and questioned him about the flight. He said he just flew cross country to Quincy, did a touch and go, and flew back, all with as good a poker face as he could put on. The FAA guy just stared at him and said, "You gonna stick to that story.?" and he said "Yeah, what's the problem?" He got a little lecture from the FAA guy, who probably let him off thinking he was just nervous on  his first solo cross country, and he was correct! I guess the moral of the story is, when in doubt, just deny everything!
  Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee

[Howard Rush]

Didn't the FMCS have anything to say?   Didn't they peek at the localizer?

[Douglas Ames]

When I was staioned at Plattsburgh AFB in the late 80's we had a Beech King Air land late at night and taxi right up to our tower, lost as could be. We had KC-135's & FB-111's with Nukes on SAC Alert at the other end of the ramp, needless to say they were greeted by our fine SP's with armored cars and .50 cal's.

From the article I read they have less than 7000' for takeoff.

[Perry Rose]

Doing an instrument approach to every airport pretty much eliminates that kind of error. The crew did the right thing and admitted it. If they had taken off again they would be out of a job. Time to change the operations manual.

[Avaiojet]

    When I first read about this, I think I read that visibility was at four miles, and as stated at night. Given that it was THIS airplane, and the cargo that it was carrying, I would figure that SOP for all landings in anything other than day time and clear blue skies would be on instruments. A friend of mine was working on his pilots license and was flying his first cross country and return flight that originated here in St. Louis, cross country to Quincy, Illinois, touch and go and return. Quincy has a tower, but is a small airport, and I don't think there is any scheduled flights in or out.  My buddy says he radioed ahead for a visual approach for a touch and go, and was cleared for a specific runway. He said he got sight of the field, made his approach, and touched down. As he was rolling along on the ground, he looked to hid right and saw a row of F-16 fighters. A million things raced through his mind in a few seconds, and he figured that he wasn't in Quincy, Illinois! As he put the power back up and took off, he realized he was in Springfield, Illinois! He made his turn and headed back to the airport he took off from, and the whole way back he was getting his story straight in his head. When he landed, he said that an FAA guy was waiting for him and questioned him about the flight. He said he just flew cross country to Quincy, did a touch and go, and flew back, all with as good a poker face as he could put on. The FAA guy just stared at him and said, "You gonna stick to that story.?" and he said "Yeah, what's the problem?" He got a little lecture from the FAA guy, who probably let him off thinking he was just nervous on  his first solo cross country, and he was correct! I guess the moral of the story is, when in doubt, just deny everything!
  Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee

In all honesty and all kidding aside, your buddy is getting off on the wrong foot.

There's no reason to lie about errors while piloting. Shows me his training is faulty and he lacks character. The man lies!

With aviation, honesty works!

He realized he was at an incorrect airfield. All he had to do was taxi his aircraft to the ramp and have a conversation with someone about his mistake. "Owning up to your mistakes." Some people just don't have it in them to do this. 

Might have even had a chance to sit in a F-16.

When I did my cross countries, late 60's, my instructor, a woman actually, made us get our log books signed at any airport we landed at. Proof we were there!

Times have changed.

Your buddy needs a lesson in many things if he expects to be a great pilot, especially quality in character.

Charles

[dale gleason]

FMCS? Peek at the localizer? honesty in aviation?

 "grownups are always saying stuff like that"  ( Ralphie, William J. Harding Middle School)


With all the other news we've had recently about crew's inability to operate all the glass automation or fly the gosh-darned things, I find it refreshing to read about some folks who landed a three hundred or so ton plane on a 6000ft runway. Visually. .. and no one got hurt.

The old hundred to one rule: "600,000lbs/6000ft"?

"Now comes nasa report time!"  dg

[john e. holliday]

Hey, I remember talking to the flight crew of a military cargo plane that landed at the old Fairfax airport of KCK.  That was one big airplane to me.  I asked the pilot if he had trouble landing on such a short runway.  He  said, "No".  It is the take off that worries me.  With a river on the north end and down town KCK and KCMo on the south end.  I guess he made it out okay after the airshow.

[mike londke]

The getaway.  http://www.cnn.com/2013/11/21/travel/kansas-cargo-plane-wrong-airport/

[Matt Colan]

Depth perception sucks at night...probably worse in fog..., and all those lights must get very confusing. I'm sympathetic to the fly boys, really I am. I appreciate Ted's 'splaination of the way it works. You too, Matt!

Gotta know what to look for at night. There are also different illusions at night you get when landing, that may have played a factor with the crew landing at the wrong airport. It's different but I personally enjoy flying at night, it's more peaceful.

Here's a quick snapshot of the cockpit my instructor took one night in a little Cessna 172 with a glass cockpit. We tune in the airports and intersections where we are holding, to eliminate the possibility of landing at the wrong airport. That particular day where these pictures came from was ATC vectoring us in between thunderstorms and taking the ILS 7L back into Daytona Beach.

[Douglas Ames]

It's funny that they always get the most clueless Reporters to cover a non-event.
I'm sure that plane was empty and had a light fuel load. No mention of that.
I wonder how much sod got tore up from the outboard engines?

[EddyR]

McDill AFB is about five miles south of Tampa International. There have been quite a few landings at the wrong airfield. Airforce guys landing at Tampa and flights from over seas landing at McDill. Most of the time it has been at night.

[Bob Whitely]

I was an approach controller at LAX for a couple of years and have seen this
very thing happen. One night a TWA 880 was inbound for the north side runways,
weather was nice and as I watched the a/c he looked like he was lined up a little
right of final. After another mile I sent him around as he was lined up with Hughes
runway 2 1/2 miles north of ours. He was also on a visual approach but looking at the
wrong airport. Not unusual, no big deal. RJ

[Steve Helmick]

I got one more question. Why was a freighter heading for Boeing plant in Wichita landing at an AFB? Is it part commercial and part USAF? Maybe because the B-52's were built there? I have not seen that combination, and I've lived on a few USAF bases. I know that PDX is also home to the Oregon ANG, so you see military stuff over on the other side of the airport. I lived on Maxwell AFB, and recall another airport on the other side of Montgomery that had Alabama ANG P-51 Mustangs (early '50's). Then, there was Holloman AFB and Edwards AFB, with nothing around, period.   Steve

[dave siegler]

I got one more question. Why was a freighter heading for Boeing plant in Wichita landing at an AFB? Is it part commercial and part USAF? Maybe because the B-52's were built there? I have not seen that combination, and I've lived on a few USAF bases. I know that PDX is also home to the Oregon ANG, so you see military stuff over on the other side of the airport. I lived on Maxwell AFB, and recall another airport on the other side of Montgomery that had Alabama ANG P-51 Mustangs (early '50's). Then, there was Holloman AFB and Edwards AFB, with nothing around, period.   Steve

Because both Boeing and Spirit Aero systems (who is doing the assembly) have have very large facilities in the SW corner of MConnell  

The radio call was classic

Even on the ground they thought they were at Beech airport and were at Jabarra.  

[Dan Bregar]

All these years and I thought I was the only one who ever made such a dumb move. Guess not.  With me it happened in Shreveport LA. 

[Double Deuce]

Must have been some time about 1953, I was pumping gas and cleaning windshields etc at Downtown Airpark in El Dorado Arkansas, when a Bonanza landed and taxied up to our pumps. Pilot got out and seemed to be in a rather foul mood. He started ranting re the advisability of putting two towns spelled so close alike on the same Sectional. He was from "Up North" somewhere and had business in Natchitoches Louisiana. So he flew direct from home to Natchitoches. Took a cab to town and when he told the driver where he wanted to go, the driver drew a blank and was given a business card with the address etc. Driver stopped and turned to the guy and explained that while he would like to help, he couldn't really as this address was in Natchotoches Louisiana and we are in Nacadoches Texas. These two towns are essentially east and west of each other and about 150 miles, or so, apart.

He was rather hot about it all. Always wondered if he ever told any equals about not only missing the airport and  town, but got the wrong state to boot.

Double Deuce

[Steve Helmick]

I wondered the same thing about the El Dorado Stunt Contest report. Nothing about what state it was in, but there's an El Dorado OK, El Dorado KS (with which I am familiar...but not for legal reasons), El Dorado Springs MO, and El Dorado AR. I did not research much beyond those, 'cause I thought it was enough. I'm really glad I didn't head for the El Dorado Stunt Contest and wander around El Dorado KS looking for the contest site. It is rather surprising how many towns have borrowed their name from a town elsewhere. Except for the town of Chicken, Alaska, of course.  Steve

[Double Deuce]

Steve

We got to meet some day.

El Dorado Arkansas in nearest to Smackover Arkansas which is slightly removed from Luanne. There are probably a few small towns in the area also. Now you know.

Am reminded of the guy who left Bend Oregon for lunch in North Bend, Oregon. Was gone near to two days.

Luke AKA Double Deuce

[Norm Faith Jr.]

I wondered the same thing about the El Dorado Stunt Contest report. Nothing about what state it was in, but there's an El Dorado OK, El Dorado KS (with which I am familiar...but not for legal reasons), El Dorado Springs MO, and El Dorado AR. I did not research much beyond those, 'cause I thought it was enough. I'm really glad I didn't head for the El Dorado Stunt Contest and wander around El Dorado KS looking for the contest site. It is rather surprising how many towns have borrowed their name from a town elsewhere. Except for the town of Chicken, Alaska, of course.   Steve

ARKANSAS...ARKEESAW...R-KANSAS!!!!  

BTW: Most GPS systems used today have "moving pictures," the last one I saw in operation did. (MU-2/Cessna 310L) You would of thought they had one. Of course it was a "trash hauler," they may of had only a hand held compass. 

[wwwarbird]

Not unusual, no big deal. RJ

 Yep, this stuff actually happens more often than you ever hear about. Put this one to the media liberals just trying to start another firestorm.

[Steve Thomas]

Didn't the FMCS have anything to say?   

Good point, Howard.

FMC+glass gives you a nice map with a magenta line right to the runway threshold, even if you don't bother dialling up any navaids.  Or is the Dreamlifter based on a 'classic' with steam gauges?
 

[Norm Faith Jr.]

Hey Steve, it's pronounced El Do-raid-o, so it is different form all the other El Dorados'..

Ty, the locals insist on pronouncing it "El-dah-ray-dah," they get all offended when you call them out on it. I've lived here for twenty years and it still aggravates the dog snot out of me.
Norm

BTW: I've got something to send you.

[Howard Rush]

Or is the Dreamlifter based on a 'classic' with steam gauges?

Looks like a 747 in a hot dog bun.  I think they made them from second-hand 747-400s.  They took off the winglets for some structural dynamics reason.

 

[Steve Helmick]

Am reminded of the guy who left Bend Oregon for lunch in North Bend, Oregon. Was gone near to two days.

Luke AKA Double Deuce

Well, yeah! It's 240 miles, much of it is pretty slow road following the crick to the coast. It'd make a good day drive with lunch in the middle. We've got a N. Bend in Washington, too, so he got lucky and found the closest one.

Don't give up hope for the NW CL Regionals in Eugene on Memorial Day weekend...looks promising, from what I hear.  Steve

[john e. holliday]

I wondered the same thing about the El Dorado Stunt Contest report. Nothing about what state it was in, but there's an El Dorado OK, El Dorado KS (with which I am familiar...but not for legal reasons), El Dorado Springs MO, and El Dorado AR. I did not research much beyond those, 'cause I thought it was enough. I'm really glad I didn't head for the El Dorado Stunt Contest and wander around El Dorado KS looking for the contest site. It is rather surprising how many towns have borrowed their name from a town elsewhere. Except for the town of Chicken, Alaska, of course.  Steve

I got to go to one Eldorado, KANSAS contest.  In fact it was my first navy carrier contest.   The contest it self was the little grass airport out side of town.   Remember that as the lady that lived across the road left town because she did not like the noise the model planes made.  The carrier event was in town at the local park that had a circle.   Of course it was dark when we started flying.  Don't know if the circle is still there or not as this was back 1963.  By the way I drive right by the west side of Eldorado KS on the way to Wichita KS on the KANSAS turnpike.

[FLOYD CARTER]

I once landed in a cow pasture in Gonzales, CA, near US 101.  But it was not accidental.  Low on fuel, and possibly unable to make it north to  Salinas.  Borrowed 5 gal tractor gas from the farmer and was back on my way (after herding the cows out of the way)

Floyd

[Dan McEntee]

In all honesty and all kidding aside, your buddy is getting off on the wrong foot.

There's no reason to lie about errors while piloting. Shows me his training is faulty and he lacks character. The man lies!

With aviation, honesty works!

He realized he was at an incorrect airfield. All he had to do was taxi his aircraft to the ramp and have a conversation with someone about his mistake. "Owning up to your mistakes." Some people just don't have it in them to do this. 

Might have even had a chance to sit in a F-16.

When I did my cross countries, late 60's, my instructor, a woman actually, made us get our log books signed at any airport we landed at. Proof we were there!

Times have changed.

Your buddy needs a lesson in many things if he expects to be a great pilot, especially quality in character.

Charles

     Well Chuck, this episode happened a long time ago. My friend was young, on his first cross country and was understandably nervous. We are all not as perfect as you, as you frequently remind us. But let me tell you a bit more about my friend. While flying, he was a little out of his usual comfort zone. His day job (and sometimes night job) for the last 30 some odd years has been as a career law enforcement officer. His first 6 or 8 years was doing undercover drug work. Every day when he kissed his wife and kids good bye, they never knew for sure if he would be coming home again. Then he moved into detective duties, and worked his way up into a supervisory position with the local Major Case Squad. He help solve many high profile crimes, and was awarded several service awards and commendations along the way. Today he holds the rank of Major with a local metropolitan police department, and is I believe a commander with the local CAP. He is the type of guy that would put himself between you and a bad guy with a gun because he knows that is his duty. He is a quiet, unassuming type of guy that doesn't toot his own horn and would probably be upset with me for telling this story, but he is the type of guy that some would say fits the description of the word "hero." To do what he has done and does everyday, takes a person of GREAT character, and I'm proud and grateful to have him as a friend. I know you posted what you did was because it was in answer to one of my posts. I don't care what you say about me, I just consider the source. But to say the things you said about a person's character that you have never met or know in ANY way, well, I take exception to that and it just  shows just how little character and class you have. He certainly doesn't need any kind of lecture from you, and neither do I nor anyone else.
    Dan McEntee

[Bill Morell]

Exceptionally very well put Dan! As you said "consider the source" of that other drivel. If you had wrote that his panties would be in a wad for theoretical "bullying".  Nuff said.

[RC Storick]

I am not sure nor do I have the time to research the threads all I know is I am getting many PM about this.