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Author Topic: Blunt leading edge  (Read 8243 times)

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Blunt leading edge
« Reply #50 on: November 18, 2021, 08:12:31 PM »
       So, here's a question (and this is a real question, not an "assertion in the form of a question") - why is it that we have so much more problem with marginal airplanes stalling and losing engine power in Muncie, rather than Davis or Tucson, even though the nominal air density is the same?  It gets pretty darn hot in Davis, and even at 85 degrees the air is pretty thin in 2200 Ft Tucson.

     We talked about this before, and you suggested the viscosity difference, but this suggests it is a nearly negligible effect. I had previously speculated about humidity, that makes the air less dense (and I think it causes the "vacuum air" spots you sometimes get in calm afternoons in the Midwest), but it seems like a pretty weak effect.   

    Brett

   

I probably made that plot after our conversation.  I remember one Nats when they'd recently repaved the L-pad. It was black and really hot.  I suspect that's what caused Doug Moon to crash.  That's all I can think of, and it wouldn't explain other years.
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Offline Mark wood

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Re: Blunt leading edge
« Reply #51 on: November 18, 2021, 11:30:38 PM »
NACE looks dandy.  I don't agree that Cl/Cd is important, but you might fix the scale on your polar so we can see what it is.

There's a scroll bar on he side of the picture window.
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Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Blunt leading edge
« Reply #52 on: November 19, 2021, 05:43:07 AM »
I think this thread has established that smooth radius leading edge airfoils can have a higher angle of attack before stalling. It also seems to confirm that thinnish to medium thickness (15% - 18%) can have a slightly better wind penetration when matched with the right weight ship.

The open question is what is the minimum LE radius as say a % of airfoil thickness were we see benefit for a PACL ship? For example could the older designs were the LE is a 1/4" sq. with the 1/16" sheeting attached be rounded to a 1/4" radius be enough or should that be a 3/8" sq. or larger?

Best,   DennisT

Offline Mark wood

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Re: Blunt leading edge
« Reply #53 on: November 19, 2021, 06:35:26 AM »
       So, here's a question (and this is a real question, not an "assertion in the form of a question") - why is it that we have so much more problem with marginal airplanes stalling and losing engine power in Muncie, rather than Davis or Tucson, even though the nominal air density is the same?  It gets pretty darn hot in Davis, and even at 85 degrees the air is pretty thin in 2200 Ft Tucson.
 

    Brett

   

It's the humidity which has a significant impact on density altitude. Tucson is very dry and Muncie isn't. An H2O molecule is lighter than either the N2 or O2 molecule is displaces.
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Online Dan McEntee

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Re: Blunt leading edge
« Reply #54 on: November 19, 2021, 06:59:59 AM »
       So, here's a question (and this is a real question, not an "assertion in the form of a question") - why is it that we have so much more problem with marginal airplanes stalling and losing engine power in Muncie, rather than Davis or Tucson, even though the nominal air density is the same?  It gets pretty darn hot in Davis, and even at 85 degrees the air is pretty thin in 2200 Ft Tucson.

     We talked about this before, and you suggested the viscosity difference, but this suggests it is a nearly negligible effect. I had previously speculated about humidity, that makes the air less dense (and I think it causes the "vacuum air" spots you sometimes get in calm afternoons in the Midwest), but it seems like a pretty weak effect.   

    Brett

   

    The best example I have ever seen of this question, I think, is a model that Mark Hughes built years ago for VSC. Basically a jet looking model based on the Jetco Shark 45 that was a copy of a model Chris McMillin's Dad flew back in the late 60's. Mark had a warp creep into the wind during construction that seemed to get worse as the finish went on, but he was determined to fly it any way. It was a nice, light model, probably in the high 50 ounce range, powered by the then new ST G.51.  We got there on Friday afternoon (this was when it was still a two day weekend contest, 1994 I think)  and put in the maiden flight. Not good as it was flying in a steep bank with the outboard wing way high. Bob Whitely and Jim Armor were there, grabbed him, the model and a tool box and went over to the grass circles and started cutting and gluing. About an hour later, then came back to the main circle and Mark started to really burn flights in and everyone stopped to watch him, wondering who he was!! It was an amazing transformation, and Mark went on to place 2nd or 3rd against some pretty heavy competition. He really surprised everyone, as no one knew who he was. It had only been a few years since he fist called me to help him get a good needle on a Fox .35 and this new model was only about the 3rd one he had built to that time. That was the last time that model ever flew well! When flying season opened up here in the Midwest, the airplane flew like crap! As far as we could tell, nothing had changed on the airplane and our attempts to cure it were fruitless. Mark eventually hung the model on the wall and retired it. Some where along the line it fell and it broke up, then Mark finished the job! It was the damnedest thing I had ever seen. The only thing I could think of was that the warmer, dryer high altitude air was just perfect for the wing and it's acquired tweaks and tabs that it needed to fly level. The adjustments may have been over done for the air here at lower altitudes, but even with trying to undo them we never got anything like the performance at Tucson.
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Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Blunt leading edge
« Reply #55 on: November 19, 2021, 07:29:37 AM »
What's one of the first things a pilot adjusts when he's in the cockpit? Full size aircraft.
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Offline Mark wood

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Re: Blunt leading edge
« Reply #56 on: November 19, 2021, 07:49:09 AM »
What's one of the first things a pilot adjusts when he's in the cockpit? Full size aircraft.

Trick question? Seat and seat belts.
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Offline BillLee

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Re: Blunt leading edge
« Reply #57 on: November 19, 2021, 07:52:19 AM »
It's the humidity which has a significant impact on density altitude. Tucson is very dry and Muncie isn't. An H2O molecule is lighter than either the N2 or O2 molecule is displaces.

Everything I have read says the opposite: humidity has little effect on DA.

https://www.boldmethod.com/learn-to-fly/performance/density-altitude/
https://www.flyingmag.com/pilot-technique-tip-week-correcting-density-altitude-humidity/

An interesting document, (Page 20+ is especially interesting):
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjPu9Ghz6T0AhUAmGoFHRVADhsQFnoECCgQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fcommons.erau.edu%2Fcgi%2Fviewcontent.cgi%3Farticle%3D1124%26context%3Dijaaa&usg=AOvVaw1pMy02CmT8uPbfku2tZ6uC

"While the role of humidity in density altitude calculations is indeed
secondary to the role of temperature, the effects can be potentially significant, when
the dew-point temperatures are high (e.g., errors over 400 feet)....."

"... a very simple-to-use ROT; that is, we can find the correction in feet due to dew-point temperature by
simply doubling the dew-point temperature and multiplying by ten or “doubling
and adding a 0.”..."

Many other citations available via Google search.

Bottom line as I read it: "some" effect, but "significant" is an exaggeration.

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Offline frank williams

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Re: Blunt leading edge
« Reply #58 on: November 19, 2021, 09:49:20 AM »
Bill ....
Do you experience the very noticeable atmospheric anomalies at the racing circles in Muncie that we see at the L-pad.  About 11am the bottom seems to fall out.  Muncie is a flying site that is surrounded by heavy crops.  I still think that the layer of vapor that you see across the fields melts away around noon and things seem to change rapidly.  Stunt Physics?   

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Blunt leading edge
« Reply #59 on: November 19, 2021, 10:18:54 AM »
It's the humidity which has a significant impact on density altitude. Tucson is very dry and Muncie isn't. An H2O molecule is lighter than either the N2 or O2 molecule is displaces.

   That's the conclusion I came to, but everyone keeps telling me otherwise. I don't dispute Bill's data, but there is definitely *something* going on, and humidity is the most obvious difference.

    Interestingly, it (whatever "it" is)  has more effect on the power than it does aerodynamics. After all this time, I know what trim changes I/we need to make for different conditions, it's the mechanism underlying it that seems to still be in question. Howard had previously suggested it was changing viscosity, but as above, it makes very little difference.

   Howard likes to tell Paul and I we are exhibiting "princess and the pea" syndrome. In my case, I can't rule that out, but in this case, it must be by proxy, since over the years Ted and David found the same things I did, whether we understand the mechanism or not.

     Brett

Online Matt Colan

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Re: Blunt leading edge
« Reply #60 on: November 19, 2021, 10:53:03 AM »
   That's the conclusion I came to, but everyone keeps telling me otherwise. I don't dispute Bill's data, but there is definitely *something* going on, and humidity is the most obvious difference.

    Interestingly, it (whatever "it" is)  has more effect on the power than it does aerodynamics. After all this time, I know what trim changes I/we need to make for different conditions, it's the mechanism underlying it that seems to still be in question. Howard had previously suggested it was changing viscosity, but as above, it makes very little difference.

   Howard likes to tell Paul and I we are exhibiting "princess and the pea" syndrome. In my case, I can't rule that out, but in this case, it must be by proxy, since over the years Ted and David found the same things I did, whether we understand the mechanism or not.

     Brett

You and David fly at sea level correct? Could it just be the change in altitude? I haven’t really noticed a difference in the last few years going to Muncie regarding changes in the motor run or trim compared to practice in Dallas or Tulsa
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Blunt leading edge
« Reply #61 on: November 19, 2021, 11:17:52 AM »
You and David fly at sea level correct? Could it just be the change in altitude? I haven’t really noticed a difference in the last few years going to Muncie regarding changes in the motor run or trim compared to practice in Dallas or Tulsa

        Certainly the altitude and air density difference requires re-trimming. But it's not the same at different places at the same apparent air density. Muncie is right at 1000 feet, and Tucson 2200 feet, the Napa and Davis sites are around 20 feet. But a hot day in Davis (say, 105 degrees) gets us about the same  apparent air density as a typical day in Muncie. 55 degrees in the morning to 105 at noon requires no more than screwing in the needle very slightly. Going to Muncie other requires several pretty drastic changes.

   I guess to state it a different way, I have an air density meter, and if it simply followed air density, you would think the same trim would be good at a given air density everywhere. It seems to be drastically different, so it must be something else. The one hallmark difference is, as Mark notes, the humidity. Again, not disputing Bill's (or previously, Howard told me the same thing) data, but it has to be *something*.

   Brett

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Blunt leading edge
« Reply #62 on: November 19, 2021, 11:28:32 AM »
Bill ....
Do you experience the very noticeable atmospheric anomalies at the racing circles in Muncie that we see at the L-pad.  About 11am the bottom seems to fall out.  Muncie is a flying site that is surrounded by heavy crops.  I still think that the layer of vapor that you see across the fields melts away around noon and things seem to change rapidly.  Stunt Physics?

     "Melt's away" or "gets blown away?"  On the topic of "vacuum air" spots, we used to notice when I flew in the Kentucky summer, what appeared to be "dead spots" in the air at semi-random on very hot, humid, calm days. This is not flying through wake, it would happen even when you hadn't flown through the same spot before, and it always acted as if there were pockets of thin air, where you just suddenly lost all the lift and the airplane appeared to go in a straight line until you flew out the other side of it. If it were thermals, you would expect it to move you in either direction, in these, it was *always* as if the lift went away suddenly. We always attributed it to local spots of high humidity. It never happened if there was even the slightest breeze, theory being that the wind was sufficient to mix it all so it was homogeneous.

   I have only occasionally gotten that at Muncie, but it may be that I never flew in the right conditions enough.

   The effect you are talking it about might be due to the thermal gradient. That is inevitable, near the nice hot blacktop, the air is naturally much hotter, get up in the air, and it is the free-air temperature. Usually this screws up needle settings, the engine speeds up more than normal once you get it off the ground. It doesn't happen over grass.

      Brett

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Blunt leading edge
« Reply #63 on: November 19, 2021, 11:53:59 AM »

...

"While the role of humidity in density altitude calculations is indeed
secondary to the role of temperature, the effects can be potentially significant, when
the dew-point temperatures are high (e.g., errors over 400 feet)....."

...

Bottom line as I read it: "some" effect, but "significant" is an exaggeration.

   400 feet is not insignificant, it's 40% of the change from sea level to Muncie.  The Northwest Regionals site is 500ish feet, and we have to retrim for that.

    I would agree, however, that the effect we are talking about acts like a lot more than a 400 foot altitude change.

          Brett

 

Offline Mike Alimov

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Re: Blunt leading edge
« Reply #64 on: November 19, 2021, 02:39:30 PM »
I know about the vacuum spots in Muncie. Luca lost his plane in one of those on the morning of Advanced finals. It was during practice over grass (!) and at temps in the low 60s . But the humidity was unbelievable.

Offline Mark wood

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Re: Blunt leading edge
« Reply #65 on: November 19, 2021, 02:43:05 PM »
     "Melt's away" or "gets blown away?"  On the topic of "vacuum air" spots, we used to notice when I flew in the Kentucky summer, what appeared to be "dead spots" in the air at semi-random on very hot, humid, calm days. This is not flying through wake, it would happen even when you hadn't flown through the same spot before, and it always acted as if there were pockets of thin air, where you just suddenly lost all the lift and the airplane appeared to go in a straight line until you flew out the other side of it. If it were thermals, you would expect it to move you in either direction, in these, it was *always* as if the lift went away suddenly. We always attributed it to local spots of high humidity. It never happened if there was even the slightest breeze, theory being that the wind was sufficient to mix it all so it was homogeneous.

   I have only occasionally gotten that at Muncie, but it may be that I never flew in the right conditions enough.

   The effect you are talking it about might be due to the thermal gradient. That is inevitable, near the nice hot blacktop, the air is naturally much hotter, get up in the air, and it is the free-air temperature. Usually this screws up needle settings, the engine speeds up more than normal once you get it off the ground. It doesn't happen over grass.

      Brett

Dead spots are an interesting description. It would be interesting to take some cat tails with you to events or even just sport flying and when you encounter conditions having dead spots cast the cat tails in to the air. My guess is what you are seeing or noticing is a thermal about to break or is breaking. The HLG guys in the FF arena look for this kind of tell tell. The cat tails will swirl about. The same thing can be done with a bubble machine. The conditions of a light wind and black top transition are a perfect thermal generator and can be quite vigorous. Easily enough to bump a PA airplane around.

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Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Blunt leading edge
« Reply #66 on: November 19, 2021, 02:58:14 PM »
My guess is what you are seeing or noticing is a thermal about to break or is breaking.
This should almost be it's own thread.  I flew HLG and Nordic with some of the best and learned to "smell" thermals 100 yards away.  Knowing what they can do to you has saved several ships for me over the years.

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Offline Mark wood

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Re: Blunt leading edge
« Reply #67 on: November 19, 2021, 03:03:05 PM »
It's true that for the majority of flight planning we do not take humidity in to account. The reason is that the temperature has more of an impact than humidity. That does not negate the impact of humidity only leaves unaccounted for in the performance calculation. The assumption here is what is the difference between to location with similar temperature conditions. Humidity is a factor. Perhaps significant is a bit strong in terms of all of the element but insignificant it isn't.
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Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Blunt leading edge
« Reply #68 on: November 19, 2021, 03:16:51 PM »
.... the older designs were the LE is a 1/4" sq. with the 1/16" sheeting attached be rounded to a 1/4" radius be enough or should that be a 3/8" sq. or larger?

Best,   DennisT
Sorry I didn't see this before the thread went barometric.  There were two ways that LE's were done back then.  Sheeting up to the 1/4" LE and sheeting over the 1/4" LE.  You could get a 1/4" radius sheeting over but you couldn't if you were sheeted up to.  I mentioned earlier that the Gieseke Nobler (at least Bob's own ships) had a much more rounded LE than the Blue Box.  This is why it could be rounded more.  Still, 1/4" is pretty pointy by todays standards.

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Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Blunt leading edge
« Reply #69 on: November 19, 2021, 04:05:58 PM »
Ken,
I check the plans I have for the Gieseke Nobler, it indicated that you trace the Nobler ribs with a FAT pen and cut out on the outer edge of the line then use 3/32" planking for the leading edge sheeting and cap strips. This gives a bit more meat to work with on the GN, question is what is the minimum that one can get away with for these classic ships?

Best,    DennisT

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Re: Blunt leading edge
« Reply #70 on: November 19, 2021, 04:29:52 PM »
Bill ....
Do you experience the very noticeable atmospheric anomalies at the racing circles in Muncie that we see at the L-pad.  About 11am the bottom seems to fall out.  Muncie is a flying site that is surrounded by heavy crops.  I still think that the layer of vapor that you see across the fields melts away around noon and things seem to change rapidly.  Stunt Physics?

I have been flying Free Flight at the nats since 2005.
Early on I was warned about the 'doldrums' that arrive. From 11:00 to 1:00 there are a lot of guys who simply will not fly. The air gets VERY squirrelly. You can use every thermal detecting trick in the book, decide "there it is" , launch and be in big downer.
Until 9:30 or 10:00 the air is very bouyant. You get a short bit when thermals come through and stay together, then the doldrums hit. There are thermals but it's tricky. I have wondered if it's because we are surrounded by green.

About five-six years ago we were there for a record heat wave. It was just miserable although nothing new to guys who fly in Texas, Oklahoma and Florida. That was the year that I( learned about air density affecting the engine's power. Probably cost me a first place. If my planes aren't up to speed they don't pattern and transition correctly.

I didn't know that it affected our Ukie planes to such a degree. I've learned that engine speed and needs change as the day goes from 45 degrees to 80 degrees but learning that the Muncie doldrums bother Control Liners is news. I've never flown FF at another field where the 'doldrums' exist.

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Blunt leading edge
« Reply #71 on: November 19, 2021, 07:04:54 PM »
Ken,
I check the plans I have for the Gieseke Nobler, it indicated that you trace the Nobler ribs with a FAT pen and cut out on the outer edge of the line then use 3/32" planking for the leading edge sheeting and cap strips. This gives a bit more meat to work with on the GN, question is what is the minimum that one can get away with for these classic ships?

Best,    DennisT
Interesting question.  LE radius is not something I would think is possible under the rules to enforce.  Bob got his rounded to just over 1/4 which is fine.  The greenbox is much smaller.  Probably around 1/8"  LE radius was not a hot topic in the 70's.  Small parabolic was the norm.  Some were really sharp, well pointed might be a better word but remember, most of us had to deal with the same winds we have today with only a single Fox 35 and a couple of Budwisers.  I think you still got 5 points for starting your engine back then and you had to wave to the judges that you thought it would keep running! :)

Ken
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Offline Jim Svitko

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Re: Blunt leading edge
« Reply #72 on: November 19, 2021, 07:18:42 PM »
If you are inclined to compare airfoils, check the plans for Dick Mathis' original Excalibur and Coyote.  Thin airfoils and a rather pointed leading edge.  Then look at the Excalibur II.  Does Excalibur II fly better than the original due to a blunter leading edge?  I can't say as I have never built Excalibur II.

Way back then, I built both the Excalibur and Coyote.  Both flew well enough for me but that was then.  Maybe now, if I built one of those, I might have enough experience to make a comparison between them and a modern design.

Online Brent Williams

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Re: Blunt leading edge
« Reply #73 on: November 19, 2021, 07:57:52 PM »
If you are inclined to compare airfoils, check the plans for Dick Mathis' original Excalibur and Coyote.  Thin airfoils and a rather pointed leading edge.  Then look at the Excalibur II.  Does Excalibur II fly better than the original due to a blunter leading edge?  I can't say as I have never built Excalibur II.

Way back then, I built both the Excalibur and Coyote.  Both flew well enough for me but that was then.  Maybe now, if I built one of those, I might have enough experience to make a comparison between them and a modern design.

I can't speak to the Excalibur other than I sure wouldn't build one with that sharp leading edge radius.  I would say look at Ted Fancher and Brett Buck's work with the Strega ARF.    It has a very thick wing and a pretty standard forward highpoint airfoil for stunt.  However, as delivered the Strega ARF has an extremely sharp leading edge.  So, large flaps, thick airfoil, forward highpoint, PIPED PA or RO-JETT...and it still stalled all over the pattern.  Peeling back the China-kote and blunting the leading edge solved most or all of the stalling problems that could be easily addressed. 
« Last Edit: November 19, 2021, 08:33:57 PM by Brent Williams »
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Offline Istvan Travnik

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Re: Blunt leading edge
« Reply #74 on: November 20, 2021, 04:26:16 PM »
I think, the best and most correct way is to build a perfect half-ellipse, as front part of the airfoil, (beginning by the thickest point).
Well, let us name the bigger "radius" of this ellipse (in other words: the distance  from the LE to the position of thickest point) as "a", and the smaller radius (in other words: halfth of the maximal thickness) as "b".
The touching circle's radius of this half ellipse, (in other words: our airfoil) will be
 r= b^2 / a
It is SO simple.
In a simple example: the wing is 2" thick, and the thickest point lays 4" from the  LE.  r= (2/2)^2 / 4 = 1/4"  (.25").
If somebody is not certain, shall make a template: drill a 1/2" dia. hole in a piece of 1/16 plywood, and continue it making a nice half-ellipse.
Istvan

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Blunt leading edge
« Reply #75 on: November 20, 2021, 05:39:45 PM »
I can't speak to the Excalibur other than I sure wouldn't build one with that sharp leading edge radius.  I would say look at Ted Fancher and Brett Buck's work with the Strega ARF.    It has a very thick wing and a pretty standard forward highpoint airfoil for stunt.  However, as delivered the Strega ARF has an extremely sharp leading edge.  So, large flaps, thick airfoil, forward highpoint, PIPED PA or RO-JETT...and it still stalled all over the pattern.  Peeling back the China-kote and blunting the leading edge solved most or all of the stalling problems that could be easily addressed.

     Absolutely spot on about the basic problem.

     In point of fact, the airplane had a Rustler-Merco 60 "Metamorph" that Ian Russell very kindly gave Ted (and I got one, too...), as it was the closest thing either one of us had to an ST60. It runs *a lot* better than most ST60s, but in the same way. I think it was a 13-6 Rev-up or something like that. A PA/RO-Jett running our usual setup or something close may have made a difference in the answer,  but given a lot of other examples, not very much.

    The airfoil is more-or-less straight off the Patternmaster plans I saw, near as I could tell. This airfoil appears to be a Nobler airfoil, scaled up in the Y ordinates to get the desired thickness. Thickness-wise it is nearly as thick (in terms of percentage) as the Infinity. The high point is not as far forward, and not as far forward as the Imitation and its more extreme descendants, like the Excitation. When the Nobler scale-up was done, the curve of the front of the airfoil faired very neatly into the 1/4" square leading edge, unlike the Nobler where, until your sheet and sand it, has a noticeable edge right at the junction. On the Strega, this is something like Red Oak instead of balsa. They then sheeted over it as shown, but just left the sharp 90 degree angle at the LE, then just covered over it. The only radius seems to be however much the covering iron round it off as they ironed it down.

     Big Jim certainly knew better than to do that, Windy certainly never left it that way (if nothing else, it looks bad), Baron and Mike Rogers flew Patternmasters, and theirs certainly were not like that. But that is how the ARF came (comes?). We started getting inklings of trouble during the morning test flights (we had never flown it before the day of the contest). Ted was the first to encounter a stall, 3rd corner of the triangle - unfortunately, it was only 68 degrees at our sea-level site, and it was only 8:00 in the morning. Ted, as befits his superior talent, was much better about babying it in the weak areas, I pretty much can only do one thing, so by the afternoon, it's in the mid-90's, and he is backing off to make it fly, I am continuing to hammer it and figure I might crash it, outboard-wingtip-first. The kicker was on the last flight of the day, where I got through, am doing the clover, and the damn thing stalls right at the entry to the last loop , inverted, but positive G, and now rapidly heading toward the ground with about a 45 degree roll. It recovered, I got it turned around without causing a second stall trying to pull out, with well under a foot of clearance.

   I also note that in addition to the aerodynamics, and in contrast to my general low-key demeanor during contests, when I get a handle in my hand I am just as big of a hyper-competitive maniac as the rest of you guys. I was determined to win, and to win, it had to go where I wanted it to, and damn the consequences.

    At any rate, the obvious solution was described in Al Rabe's old AAM Stunt column in about 1973 - that as long as you sand back through the sheeting to the LE stock, and round it off, you don't have a problem. I did that to Ted's airplane, out at the field, with a Perma-Grit file and a devil-may-care attitude. I flattened the entire leading edge off completely blunt and about 1/16" or so into the Red Oak, then rounded it off, and then covered over it. Ted flew it, no problem.

   Later, Gerry Arana posted this sequence of events on SSW, and someone from Brodak found out, and gave some supplemental instructions along the same lines. So, this more-or-less took care of the problem for everyone. I also think it might explain more of the thought process that led them to the gigantic flaps, but Big Jim is no longer around to ask.

  Brett

     

     

Offline Mark wood

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Re: Blunt leading edge
« Reply #76 on: November 20, 2021, 05:51:25 PM »
Yup. That is what a sharp break in the lift curve of an airfoil will do to you. ;)

Look at the Cl v AOA graph. This airfoil is a bit different but it is an example of how airfoils behave and an example of the reply to your question of why I won't use an airfoil with a sharp break. With a little yaw the wings can see a couple degrees different AOA. In this case the result, besides creaming an airplane from it, it that one wing sees a Cl of 1.35 and the other 0.9 a 40% difference which causes a tremendous rolling moment. This is what I call the snap roll ona string hinger.

This is exactly your example.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2021, 06:31:29 PM by Mark wood »
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Re: Blunt leading edge
« Reply #77 on: November 20, 2021, 08:05:19 PM »
Yup. That is what a sharp break in the lift curve of an airfoil will do to you. ;)

    Yes, I agree on the "45 degree roll angle" part. If the stall characteristics were more gentle, it might have only been 30 degrees. But to *my* point, either way is completely unacceptable.  I won this contest only because Ted had the same problem I did, choosing to give up corner (and although I didn't mention this part, my willingness to put the bottoms at 4 feet - or lower). Had he been flying an airplane that gave a good corner but did not stall, like the excellent Vector 40, I would have gotten my ass kicked.

     The real fix (which may have made the stall break worse...) is to prevent it from stalling in the first place - meaning I don't care how sharply it might stall, just that I can avoid it without compromising the rest of the flight. So, as earlier - delaying the stall to a higher AoA or at least getting a higher CL before then.

   BTW, I don't think we are really arguing the point, I think we are stating it differently.

     Brett

Offline Mark wood

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Re: Blunt leading edge
« Reply #78 on: November 20, 2021, 10:09:24 PM »
    Yes, I agree on the "45 degree roll angle" part. If the stall characteristics were more gentle, it might have only been 30 degrees. But to *my* point, either way is completely unacceptable.  I won this contest only because Ted had the same problem I did, choosing to give up corner (and although I didn't mention this part, my willingness to put the bottoms at 4 feet - or lower). Had he been flying an airplane that gave a good corner but did not stall, like the excellent Vector 40, I would have gotten my ass kicked.

     The real fix (which may have made the stall break worse...) is to prevent it from stalling in the first place - meaning I don't care how sharply it might stall, just that I can avoid it without compromising the rest of the flight. So, as earlier - delaying the stall to a higher AoA or at least getting a higher CL before then.

   BTW, I don't think we are really arguing the point, I think we are stating it differently.

     Brett

Communication style can lead to the impression of arguing. "My point" is there isn't a reason to compromise. Case in point, my NACE kicks ass in the performance arena and doesn't do bad stuff.  The one thing I'm not worrying about is if it's gonna bite me. Take one more worry off my list. Gives me more margin. The crash videos are full of airplanes crashing 80% plus could have survived if they had a better airfoil. I have an ARC Strega on the shelf and it will likely remain there. Reason being is it represents a risk and frustration I don't need. Yes, you can fly around its bad habits but why would you if you didn't have too. To me that's silliness but again, I have the tools in my pocket and not everyone does. I do things like buy and fly some ARFs because they are a fast path to gaining knowledge. I reserve my major efforts to the development of better. In that end I most likely wouldn't build a Strega or many others but I surely would watch and listen to what Windy has to say, which I have. Trust me, I pay attention.

There's no question you guys can fly better than I can. And that you have more CLPA experience than I do. The reality is that it isn't likely two things will happen. One is that I would win a major title or even participate. That just isn't my thing. I don't have the wherewithal to spend the time to get there, I have other sit I wanna play with. Two is that what I present will make it very far as it takes the first get peoples attention. So, I just do my thing. That thing is, I make cool sit. I am good at it. But most often it just gets put in the corner to collect dust. And that's ok it's what I do for fun.
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Blunt leading edge
« Reply #79 on: November 21, 2021, 02:50:57 PM »
I probably made that plot after our conversation.  I remember one Nats when they'd recently repaved the L-pad. It was black and really hot.  I suspect that's what caused Doug Moon to crash.  That's all I can think of, and it wouldn't explain other years.

    I was the next up after that, and my opinion was that it was pretty much the usual dead-air turbulence. We were really hoping he didn't take an attempt, and he certainly wasn't leaving any margin (this was Top 20 day, after all). Afterwards, we "cleared the circle" for about 20 minutes, to the point we were picking old glow plugs out of the sealer from 10 years earlier. Of course we were super-concerned about debris, but, the fact that it was dead calm didn't suggest a speedy operation. There was only a breath of air when I flew, not enough to really matter, I just got the luck of the draw and had no big hits at critical moments.
 
     Brett

Offline Serge_Krauss

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Re: Blunt leading edge
« Reply #80 on: November 22, 2021, 09:53:15 AM »
I found some of my old data and diagrams concerning leading edges and flaps from several years ago, and they fit somewhat with the original question and the flap issue that came up. While I certainly agree with Mike and others who have pointed to changes in Reynolds Number with atmospheric conditions, the relevance of changing camber with flap deflection, second derivative items, etc. and long ago wrote a little on those myself, I have been more interested in simpler things. So here - again FWIW - are a few items I explored and found interesting for my own purposes. Unfortunately, some of my old scans were done at low resolution for SSW forum and aren’t as clear as I’d have liked. I hope the wing section comparisons are visible.

First, my answer to a question above: for me, "penetration" is just a measure of how far a wing or aircraft flies into suddenly increased headwind from gusts or entering the upwind part of a lap before regaining its normal air speed. The better the penetration, the less quickly a wing’s airspeed and groundspeed slows, when encountering a headwind. While a less “draggy” wing is less desirable when accelerating downward in a maneuver, it has its advantages elsewhere.

Of all NACA reports I’ve found, NACA TN 763 relates most closely to the “Stationary flaps” that interest me. Seeing it again, I see that I did not remember what they call a “Guinn” flap quite accurately, thinking it to have a more abrupt hinge line at neutral and to be flatter. So it is thin, but very tapered. Anyway, the first two pictures below, from TN 763, do concern wings for flapless planes. Figures 1 and 2 (first picture) show the wing sections compared in the report. They are not symmetrical, but rather the most common of the 5-digit sections that they liked at that time. Their aft camber lines were straight from the “high point” aft, giving them low c.p. movement. I think such sections were used on the “Corsair” and later the “Bonanza,” among others. Aspect ratios are 6.0 for both models at Re = 609,000 (we fly at about 400,000-500,000; you can calculate yours here:

https://www.omnicalculator.com/physics/reynolds-number

NACA compared 18% and 15% sections, because the actual percent thicknesses of the 23018 with the Guinn flap was close to 15% at14.4% of the total chord.

The second picture is figure 8 from TN 763. From it you see that the “Guinn” Flap gives more maximum lift when not deflected than the plain flap (yellow line). NACA preferred the plain flap, due to lower drag and higher L/D, considerations for cruise range and speed. Other graphs in TN 763 show Cl’s for all angles of attack for each flap deflection, where data can be compared for our maneuvering CL's. ...and yes, I have always been aware that we try not to fly at high lift coefficients near the stall!

I played around in Profili 15 years ago to create a wing section to suit an original flapless plane. Like John Miller, I modified one from the NACA “laminar” series. Liking its leading edge, but wanting a “friendly” flapless version, I moved the “high point” of the 63a010 forward to .24C and doubled its thickness. I got a section I thought might have less drag than the NACA 0020 (as for other thicknesses). The next picture shows it compared to the NACA 0020 section, both stock and with its maximum thickness moved forward to the same point. The leading edge “radius”, if it has one (elliptical, since thickness has been multiplied over the entire chord), is smaller than the 0020’s, but the transition curve seemed nice. So, I thought this less blunt section might have better “penetration.”

I wanted to see how a flat stationary flap would affect it and drew a version of the modified 63a010 with such a flap of only 10% chord. It is shown in the next picture. Unlike NASA in TN 763, I was more interested in preserving the shape of my wing section. So rather than making it thicker still, so that with flap, it would still make a 20% section, I just added the flap, making the flapped version into an 18.8% section. Since NASA and X-Foil had shown thicker sections to have a greater maximum lift coefficient in this range, I thought that any improvement in XFoil would be on the conservative side. XFoil’s comparative results are shown in the next picture, where curves 2 and 3 are for the stationary-flapped versions, while 1 and 4 are the unflapped version (1) compared to the NACA 0020 (4).

The last picture is of the LA .25-powered plane I built incorporating this modified airfoil. It had a D-tube Morris “New Millenium” wing that preserved the leading-edge shape, with a straight spar through the 25%-chord points of all ribs. Wanting to try a higher aspect ratio, I tapered the wing more than usual to ease the effects of gusts. Its MAC is at 45.8% of the half span, somewhere between the more ideal elliptical-wing’s (42.4%) and usual tapered wings' (47% - 49%). It was intended to get the stationary flap, after I’d flown it without, but unfortunately, falling victim to its pilot, it never got to the flapped stage. However, it flew well, even in moderate gusts, and it glided really well.

Addendum - just noticed this (new last pictures), a 23% wing section that is elliptical to 30% of the chord and then tapers along a NACA profile to 3.18% thickness to allow for a flap. Obviously, I hadn't used Excel for this one! Anyway, the profili comparison shows this fat section to be a bit less blunt than the corresponding 00xx section.

« Last Edit: November 22, 2021, 10:12:41 AM by Serge_Krauss »

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Re: Blunt leading edge
« Reply #81 on: November 22, 2021, 10:34:33 AM »
Thanks for re-posting to this forum. I believe there's good information in this work an d I'm glad to see it is still available.

John M.

Offline Mark wood

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Re: Blunt leading edge
« Reply #82 on: November 22, 2021, 11:21:43 AM »
I found some of my old data and diagrams concerning leading edges and flaps from several years ago, and they fit somewhat with the original question and the flap issue that came up. While I certainly agree with Mike and others who have pointed to changes in Reynolds Number with atmospheric conditions, the relevance of changing camber with flap deflection, second derivative items, etc. and long ago wrote a little on those myself, I have been more interested in simpler things. So here - again FWIW - are a few items I explored and found interesting for my own purposes. Unfortunately, some of my old scans were done at low resolution for SSW forum and aren’t as clear as I’d have liked. I hope the wing section comparisons are visible.

Addendum - just noticed this (new last pictures), a 23% wing section that is elliptical to 30% of the chord and then tapers along a NACA profile to 3.18% thickness to allow for a flap. Obviously, I hadn't used Excel for this one! Anyway, the profili comparison shows this fat section to be a bit less blunt than the corresponding 00xx section.

Very nice Serge. I read the report which has an interesting conclusion that the plane flap was more desirable. They cite the speed range being the reason from which I conclude the lower drag of the Gwinn flap at higher deflections is the reason. Otherwise the Gwinn flaps have lower drag in almost all tests. There isn't anything generally wrong with using an ellipse to generate an easy airfoil. It's tough to make a better section which requires lots of messing around. The NACE section I designed which honestly has many variants tuned for specific purposes once had some ellipse built in. However, during a couple projects I participated in at Scaled Composites, I had the opportunity to chat with Jon Ronz and learn how he goes about airfoil design.

Jon isn't an aerospace engineer, he's a graphic designer. His method is to look at the pressure data and conceptualize what he would have to do with the profile to adjust the pressures. Make it a little thicker here and little thinner there... When I sat down wit him, he was doing it Matrix style by just looking at the number on big print outs of the dot matrix printers of the day. The tool we use today are spiffier but not necessarily better.

BTW I am a NACA report junky. I love reading those things.
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Offline Serge_Krauss

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Re: Blunt leading edge
« Reply #83 on: November 22, 2021, 12:59:41 PM »
However, during a couple projects I participated in at Scaled Composites, I had the opportunity to chat with Jon Ronz and learn how he goes about airfoil design.
...BTW I am a NACA report junky. I love reading those things.

Mark -

How fascinating that you have worked at Scaled Composites, where so much exciting work has been done. I talked with John Roncz on  occasion, mostly via e-mail, but a couple times at Oshkosh. He's a cool thinker and greatly self taught in his area of expertise. He also worked with Jim Marske on the Genesis project and I guess they didn't quite agree on the need for a "trimmer." Is he still creating America's Cup sails? Those were exciting times for me too, although I watched at a distance and just helped Jim a bit. On the NACA reports, one thing I have noticed is that they were so well conceived and written, often at times when new solutions to old problems (some theretofore unrealized) required re-editing and processing earlier data. Sometimes you can even recognize styles in the reports. I have always liked the TN's because so many were translations or real finds from the literature. Munk, Jones, Diehl,...what a treasure trove.

Offline Mark wood

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Re: Blunt leading edge
« Reply #84 on: November 23, 2021, 07:15:59 AM »
Mark -

How fascinating that you have worked at Scaled Composites, where so much exciting work has been done. I talked with John Roncz on  occasion, mostly via e-mail, but a couple times at Oshkosh. He's a cool thinker and greatly self taught in his area of expertise. He also worked with Jim Marske on the Genesis project and I guess they didn't quite agree on the need for a "trimmer." Is he still creating America's Cup sails? Those were exciting times for me too, although I watched at a distance and just helped Jim a bit. On the NACA reports, one thing I have noticed is that they were so well conceived and written, often at times when new solutions to old problems (some theretofore unrealized) required re-editing and processing earlier data. Sometimes you can even recognize styles in the reports. I have always liked the TN's because so many were translations or real finds from the literature. Munk, Jones, Diehl,...what a treasure trove.

I did not for work for Scaled Composites directly, I worked on a project that Scaled did the airframe which took me to Scaled for a while. It is a very interesting place and many things go on there. This was in the early middle nineties when I was there. In many ways, I am allot like John in being self trained. While I have aero in my education and some limited professional experience, I have learned much more  on my own. My first job out of college was in the rotor and drive systems at McDonnel Douglass Helicopters which the job I did using my education was a rotor blade improvement. That was on the NOTAR helicopter which is a fascinating aerodynamic machine. From there I went in to powerplants and helped put engines in various aircraft. The one that took me to Scaled was a UAV tilt rotor Eagle Eye. That was an aircraft that should have won the contract but you know how that goes. We demonstrated we could fly the mission but a paper vehicle by Boeing won the contract. Wonder how that works?
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Offline Serge_Krauss

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Re: Blunt leading edge
« Reply #85 on: November 23, 2021, 07:30:45 AM »
Thanks for re-posting to this forum. I believe there's good information in this work an d I'm glad to see it is still available. John M.

Thanks, John! Unfortunately, the numbers of views for the graphs pretty much tell the story. I hope I've provided some perspective. I'm tempted to finish the plane (half built) for which I created the elliptical-leading edged section or to re-build the blue and silver one. The "New Millennium" wing was stiff, but easily damaged.

SK

Offline Mark wood

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Re: Blunt leading edge
« Reply #86 on: November 23, 2021, 07:50:04 AM »
Thanks, John! Unfortunately, the numbers of views for the graphs pretty much tell the story. I hope I've provided some perspective. I'm tempted to finish the plane (half built) for which I created the elliptical-leading edged section or to re-build the blue and silver one. The "New Millennium" wing was stiff, but easily damaged.

SK

Well, people generally don't really comprehend what graphs tell them unfortunately. I think you should finish the airplane unless there is a significant problem you spotted which can't be fixed. There's always something to learn from finishing and flying even it is simply confirmation of what you think you know.
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Re: Blunt leading edge
« Reply #87 on: November 23, 2021, 11:13:13 AM »
Well, I tend to agree with Mark, the work has merit and is useful. I hope you will finish up your project, and let us know the results. I am particularly interested in your tests with the fixed flap work you have done, as it compares to my own.

I have been working on a design that uses the fixed flap. I hope to start building this season.

John M. H^^

Offline Mike Alimov

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Re: Blunt leading edge
« Reply #88 on: November 23, 2021, 12:24:52 PM »
It was intended to get the stationary flap, after I’d flown it without, but unfortunately, falling victim to its pilot, it never got to the flapped stage.
Serge, i strongly suspect that it was a victim of an unreliable powertrain setup rather than the pilot, based on what I`ve observed over the years. Maybe the next plane can get an electric heart? They dont stall overhead.

Which, by the way, is another aspect of plane performance that wasnt really discussed here.  With elevators and flaps deflected to enter a corner, the plane presents a much higher load for the propulsion source to overcome due to drag. How quickly and powerfully your powertrain responds will determine how much speed is lost, and also whether the wing needs a higher AoA to maintain lift. So, a Fox35 powered plane would warrant a blunter airfoil than a 6S active electric system.

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Re: Blunt leading edge
« Reply #89 on: November 23, 2021, 01:29:05 PM »
Which, by the way, is another aspect of plane performance that wasnt really discussed here.  With elevators and flaps deflected to enter a corner, the plane presents a much higher load for the propulsion source to overcome due to drag. How quickly and powerfully your powertrain responds will determine how much speed is lost, and also whether the wing needs a higher AoA to maintain lift. So, a Fox35 powered plane would warrant a blunter airfoil than a 6S active electric system.

   Or, looking at it from the other end, you might be able to get away with a thinner airfoil on a piped airplane, or more so, an electric. Fox-powered airplanes couldn't really take advantage of it because of the overall lack of power.

This is the other reason why all the ST60 airplanes had hugely thick airfoils - to create parasitic drag to control the speed (by decreasing the ratio of induced to parasitic drag). Of course it also was only possible to that degree because it was an ST60 and had tons of power. Same with the ST46, the airplanes got progressively smaller and the wings thicker.  The last ST46 airplanes were hardly any bigger than Fox-powered airplanes, but had 25% airfoils to keep the whip-up under control. Not to beat a dead horse, but - *like the Imitation*.

     I would note that at least our (Ted and I) first 40/46VF airplanes were essentially blown-up versions of the same (late ST46 airplane) idea, very intentionally to do the same thing with a more powerful engine. What we didn't fully appreciate at the time was the degree to which piped engines could control the speed without resorting to the parasitic drag. I think we rather overdid it, and although the airplanes have done pretty well (2 NATS for Ted, 6 or so for David, one for some random slug, and a Junior WC), they are probably not optimal, lacking penetration in certain places in the pattern, and certainly is not optimal for electric, just because it sucks up so much power for the advantage gained. David actually did something about it, going to the much thinner Thundergazer airfoil with small flaps that is very similar in most respects to the Imitation. I would also note that Paul had it about right all along!

   For fear of further inflaming the sensitive, and with absolutely no malice - these sort of considerations are not new, it goes all the way back to GMA himself, making thin wings to get decent wind penetration with his Fox 35 (and living with the consequences).  It was a very hot topic throughout the 80s and 90s (when the engines got so much better). It hasn't been discussed a lot in recent years for various reasons, but my electric design certainly doesn't use an Infinity airfoil for exactly the reasons we are discussing here.

    Brett

p.s. to address Serge's apparent disappointment - yes, you are giving good information, and a lot of people did not look at it or pay any attention. Welcome to my world. But I would also add that the theoretical differences you are exploring are so small compared to the "noise" that aside from a very narrow group of people, it is either not understood at all, or swamped  by orders of magnitude by far more practical issues with trim and power. The vast majority of the people who might be able to take advantage of it *already know*.

   That is the problem I have had over the years, if you assume everyone has the necessary background, they already know what you are telling them, or, if you assume they don't, you have to start from scratch every time. What you (and Mark, and everyone else) are doing is very worthy, however, you have to understand that your potential audience is extremely narrow range of people who have enough background but haven't already studied the problem in depth before. That does not mean to stop doing it, by all means, continue. But don't be too disappointed when it can only be appreciated by a few.

   The other issue, is, of course, that some people will take this very narrow and specific bit of information, and act like *it is the only thing* and fixate on it, while ignoring the many other far more obvious issues like trim and power. The reality is that just about any airfoil that does not come to a point or have sharp ridges running down it is going to be OK, if you get everything else right.

   

     

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Blunt leading edge
« Reply #90 on: November 23, 2021, 03:04:07 PM »
The other issue, is, of course, that some people will take this very narrow and specific bit of information, and act like *it is the only thing* and fixate on it, while ignoring the many other far more obvious issues like trim and power.

The junior engineer syndrome

The reality is that just about any airfoil that does not come to a point or have sharp ridges running down it is going to be OK, if you get everything else right.   

I got interested in airfoils as a kid because I figured they're free: a good one doesn't cost you any more than a poor one.  This isn't quite true.  There are structural and being-able-to-wipe-off-your-wing considerations, but I think it's worth pursuing optimal airfoils. 
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Blunt leading edge
« Reply #91 on: November 23, 2021, 03:25:11 PM »
NACA compared 18% and 15% sections, because the actual percent thicknesses of the 23018 with the Guinn flap was close to 15% at14.4% of the total chord.

My guess is that they wanted to compare the Guinn flap to something and picked models they had around to compare.  They had some with "plain" flaps and they appended the Guinn flap on another.  Do you reckon they picked the 15% foil based on thickness ratio, or did they run the Guinn flap case and then pick the plain-flap model that came close to the Guinn-flap model's lift curve.  They probably already had data on a range of plain-flap airfoils.
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Offline Scott Richlen

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Re: Blunt leading edge
« Reply #92 on: November 23, 2021, 03:38:25 PM »
Quote
   Unfortunately, the numbers of views for the graphs pretty much tell the story. I hope I've provided some perspective. 

Guys:

I appreaciate all the graphs even though I don't always fully understand them.  Keep on posting them and I'll keep looking.

Thanks!

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Blunt leading edge
« Reply #93 on: November 23, 2021, 03:40:08 PM »
Back to density.  We had this conversation before: https://stunthanger.com/smf/open-forum/air-density/50/ , where the concept of "oxygen density altitude" was introduced, but maybe not accurately calculated.  I just now wondered if 15% relative humidity was a reasonable number, so I asked Alexa what the relative humidity is in Death Valley and Tucson is now.  It's 21% and 8%, respectfully.

This reminds me of another story.  An aero friend just returned from swimming with dolphins and manatees in Florida.  I wondered what the Reynolds number of a dolphin is, so I asked Alexa.  She instantly had numbers, but didn't know how to read scientific notation.  Ask her; the answer is interesting.

Correction:  "It's 21% and 8%, respectfully."  That is backwards, so I guess it's disrespectfully, to extrapolate the malapropism.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2021, 04:30:11 PM by Howard Rush »
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Offline Scott Richlen

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Re: Blunt leading edge
« Reply #94 on: November 23, 2021, 03:41:09 PM »
Also, did they test the Guinn flap because someone at NACA saw a Nobler fly?    ;)

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Blunt leading edge
« Reply #95 on: November 23, 2021, 03:49:57 PM »
Also, did they test the Guinn flap because someone at NACA saw a Nobler fly?    ;)

I think it was pre-Nobler.  There was this guy Guinn, who made and seemed to have hyped his airplane with Guinn flaps: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gwinn_Aircar.  NACA probaly felt obligated to check it out.
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Blunt leading edge
« Reply #96 on: November 23, 2021, 03:53:13 PM »
I appreaciate all the graphs even though I don't always fully understand them. 

Me neither
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Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Blunt leading edge
« Reply #97 on: November 23, 2021, 04:00:44 PM »
Guys:

I appreaciate all the graphs even though I don't always fully understand them.  Keep on posting them and I'll keep looking.

Thanks!

I prefer pie charts. Pie are good! Pecan is my favorite.  D>K Steve
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Offline Mark wood

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Re: Blunt leading edge
« Reply #98 on: November 23, 2021, 04:11:50 PM »
Me neither

Sometimes that's because the person making them didn't either.
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Re: Blunt leading edge
« Reply #99 on: November 23, 2021, 05:22:56 PM »
a " BLUNT " leading edge , in the extreme , would be flat , vertical , the depth of the wing !  S?P



This ones got a blunt trailing edge too .  S?P

My thinkng is the ' way round ' full size plane aerobatic airfoil , is in part , to enhance the rate of roll .
As in , a sharper L E is gunna need greater forward tavel per degree of roll .



If in ' the stall ' , a extreme sharp L E , the breakaway / seperation of flow is more pronounced , premature .
But the yellow Folkerts with a 3/8 Sq. L E @ 45 degrees , no radiusing bar the covering - would rotate ,
slaming on full control .
Though the flow would detach over the top , the air caught under & held by the flaps , would be sufficient to support the plane . And made a neat  ' woosh ' noise .

Was set up hair trigger , aft C G , No slack at  control T E's . Was very good in 15 Knot plus winds , IF you had your undivided attention on it .
As in was extremely responsive , not unstable .

WHICH BRINGS US TO . . . Gust Response .DRAG . If the ' flow seperation ' drag figure is of lesser variation , when wind speed is erratic & unstable ,
the Inirtia of the plane ( on any steady course ) is more a STABILISING influance .

My view is a rather blunt L E , say 50 % depth diameter , would have the airspeed more influanced by gusts . TED should be the man to ask here ,
Note refering to Gust Responce rather than steadyish high wind . Two differant tho often simultaeneous conditions .

As for a 1/4 sq 9 or whadeva ) L E member & 1/16 sheet , SHARP would be shaped to / from the very front edge of the 1/4 Sq , For  LIGHT plane . Light Loading .
Wereas whacking it back till the depth between the sheeting is 1/16 to 1/8 , tho Id say 2 m.m. is near the limit , you can get a fair sort of radius ,
if youre looking for a ROUND seperation point at the front . Which tecnically near no part is vertical . But a lot more is pretty close to it .




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