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General control line discussion => Open Forum => Topic started by: Mike Griffin on January 12, 2020, 01:37:51 PM
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I have a question. Did anyone ever kit Big Jim's Patternmaster? AND NO, I am not interested in kitting the model at all before anyone asks. I would just like to buy a kit if it was ever kitted and still in production somewhere. I have the plans but would like to have a kit if one ever existed. Thank you.
Mike
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Tom Dixon sells wing and plans. No. It’s the Time Machine. Similar.
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Tom Dixon sells wing and plans. No. It’s the Time Machine. Similar.
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Thank you Dennis.
Mike
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The CARDINAl & the STREGA are essentiall Patter Masters . just restyled .
Theres a few styles of Pattern Master too .
A ' L J ( El Jay ) 35 ( 57 span ) , or 40 ( 40 / 46 )( 60 or 64 span ) might well be worth kitting . The B J's same but bigger ( 72 " )
Ive even got carried away and drawn a P M at 40 span & a L J at 48 span , for the FP / FSR .25s ! .
as a good ' throw in the trunk ' thing , for 60 foot light lines , if used in calm weather . 65s even .
maybe 55 of hevier stuff for wind .
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John Duncan cuts the Pattern Master wing. I bought one from him several years ago. The Strega wing is a lot thicker than the Pattern Master. Bob Hunt may have the Pattern Master wing also.
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My strong recommendation is to stick with the original, and avoid the erzatz versions. Most of the "modified" versions did not fly nearly as well as did those built to plan. It's a pretty decent airplane if you build the real thing.
Brett
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My strong recommendation is to stick with the original, and avoid the erzatz versions. Most of the "modified" versions did not fly nearly as well as did those built to plan. It's a pretty decent airplane if you build the real thing.
Brett
Brett that is what I wanted. A kit of the original. I do have the plans and I can just scratch build it from the plans.
Thanks to all
Mike
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None of the four Big Jim Pattern-master were ever kitted
The way we built the PM/60
Set of plans
Foam wing stab and elevator from Big Jim
You build fuse, flaps, tips and assemble
Before Mike Rogers created the PM plans ( with new rudder )
Big Jim’s plane used a square type rudder. The thinking was to create a more modern plane with swept back rudder
Prior to Mike. You purchased components ( foam wingstab Elev )
And you got the numbers
Nose 10.5” tail 18”
Wing 5/8” below motor. Stab 2” above wing
You had all info to design your PM
Jose modesto
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My strong recommendation is to stick with the original, and avoid the erzatz versions. Most of the "modified" versions did not fly nearly as well as did those built to plan. It's a pretty decent airplane if you build the real thing.
Brett
Tom Dixon sells wing and plans. No. It’s the Time Machine. Similar.
The Time Machine was first published by Tom in Flying Models several years ago, and I don't remember the year. It was a "down sized " and re-engineered design and if I remember the article correctly, Tom credited the design to Big Jim as you figure he would. I can't remember if Tom was selling any components for the model at that time.
Fast forward about a year or so, and there was an add or small article by Big Jim in Stunt News. It seems that people were purchasing the plans and building the airplane, and there were all sorts of problems, such as wings folding and other issues, and people were ragging on poor Big Jim! He had to take out the article/add to defend himself and his design of the Pattern-master and if you built a Time Machine and were not happy, your problem was with Tom Dixon and to direct your anger where it should be. It would take me forever to dig that out but I'm sure I have both the Time Machine article and the issue of Stunt News with Jim's with Jim's disclaimer. Like Brett says, if you want the real deal, build the real deal from a set of Big Jim or Mike Rogers plans and be happy. Along the lines of something similar, if you want a giant airplane like a Patter-master but with a jet look, PAMPA has the plans for Chris McMillin's Golden Falcon that should fill the bill. Christ took Rookie of the Year honors and a top twenty placing with that airplane at an early 90's NATS I believe. He built that in Windy's basement and finished it here in St. Louis after relocating and I think it's based on PM numbers
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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Dan the PM ever had those issues
You are referring to the BJ
The stunt community nationally,became aware of Big Jim through Windy and his MiG 1983 (BJ)
The wing span was 72” with 4.5” flaps at the root.
From 83 to 87 windy flew the BJ model With his ascetics 5 straight top 5finishes with the 7 to 1 aspect ratio planes
The challenge with this plane and folding wings was the the pro stunt crowd were trying to build this plane under 60 oz
The center wing reinforcement was not adequate for the span and loads. Building error
Not design flaw
I build 3 BJ 72” span and followed Jim center section treatment with no failures
Jose Modesto
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None of the four Big Jim Pattern-master were ever kitted
The way we built the PM/60
Set of plans
Foam wing stab and elevator from Big Jim
You build fuse, flaps, tips and assemble
Before Mike Rogers created the PM plans ( with new rudder )
Big Jim’s plane used a square type rudder. The thinking was to create a more modern plane with swept back rudder
Prior to Mike. You purchased components ( foam wingstab Elev )
And you got the numbers
Nose 10.5” tail 18”
Thank you Jose.
Mike
Wing 5/8” below motor. Stab 2” above wing
You had all info to design your PM
Jose modesto
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Fast forward about a year or so, and there was an add or small article by Big Jim in Stunt News. It seems that people were purchasing the plans and building the airplane, and there were all sorts of problems, such as wings folding and other issues,
The folding wings were a combination of more power (and this more cornering), and what amounts to mistakes in finishing technique. They were covering the wings after the airplane was assembled, and ending the silkspan just short of the fuselage. That was OK when everyone was using St46s, you just couldn't generate that much cornering load. ST60s, and then, much more, piped 40s, corner *much* better and the loads went through the roof. Then there was a epidemic of structural failures. The proper technique is to cover the entire wing first, then put it in the fuselage, so you can cover it tip to tip, just like it shows on the Nobler plans.
I don't think this was a problem with the Patternmaster or even the BJ specifically, although as usual, when something went wrong, the fingers started getting pointed - that's just their culture. Plenty of other airplanes built the same way started failing, too, just without the minute-to-minute press coverage of "Pro Stunt News" in the alligator-sticker era.
Ted Fancher pointed out the problem at the time; predictably, they ignored him, and then came up with the big elliptical fiberglass patches, sometimes two of them, to make up for the lack of covering through the fuselage. That was even *before* they started the "fued"(sic)
Brett
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Years ago I spent a few days at Tom Morris's house and one of the things I learned from him is exactly what Brett was talking about. We built some Cavaliers while I was there and he always over lapped the Polyspan on the center sheeting so you had a double layer of Polyspan over the center sheeting. Then the wing was inserted into the fuselage. I have done that ever since.
Mike