Bias or Unbiased handles?

[Paul Taylor]

Now that the bottom fell out and it is Brrrr degrees out, I started looking at my handles and trying to figure out if I want to go back to a bias handle this spring.
I just grabbed a unbiased handle and sure enough it has a little off set in my hand. As I think about how this would work it just does not play out in my head.

I know everyone is different. When I hold a handle in my hand, from neutral I have more throw with down then I do up. I have not put a ruler on it, but it looks like I only move my wrist a little more then a inch for up, but I can move it several inches in the down direction. Maybe I am just looking at wrist movement and should consider that the arm moves as well to control the up and down of the plane.

I know the bottom line is everyone has to fly with a handle they feel comfortable with. But I want to try and see if making a handle will improve my flying. Guess it is a try and see kind of thing.
I would like to see what others think.

What am I missing?

[Steve Helmick]

I've come to like the no-bias handles. A lot. If you pull the handle in (bent elbow) and centered in front of your chest, you'll roll your forearm, not so much bend your wrist. If your plane pulls like a truck, your shoulder will not hurt. Your bicep might swell up, but don't worry about that, it'll go away by next year about this time. Unless you have a lot of sneuax to shovel, due to global warming.     Steve

[Bill Little]

Hi PAul,

I think it has something to do with some part of what Steve said.............

Most all of the guys who I have seen fly stunt real good, have quite a bend in their arm at the elbow, close to 90* (definitely NOT "straight armed").  At that position, the hand is basically "vertical".  If you straighten out your arm, the hand "tilts" forward. 

So, my suggestion, if you are flying pretty "Straight Armed", is to forget that,  get a good bend at the elbow and use a "non biased" handle.  IMHO, you will become a better "Stunt Pilot". 

To "learn" C/L flying, everyone says "fly with your arm straight".  "Just raise and lower your arm".   That is pretty good for learning to fly a C/L plane around level and not crash, because you are very limited in "control input".  But I have not seen that in too many to level stunt pilots, if any.

REMEMBER: this is my opinion, I am sure others will differ.  But I do have a lot of acquired "visual" experience to back it up.

Big Bear

[phil c]

The biggest advantage of a straight up handle is the ease of setup.  Every plane flys the same, if you make all the adjustments someplace else.

That being said, a Tom Morris style handle allows you to have a handle for each of the "special" planes that may need tweaks to the handle to fly right.  I got several and re-cut them all so the grip is smooth and parallel to the bar.  Then the overhand and position of each line can be tweaked to get the plane feel right.  For example, on plane is VERY touchy on up(controls are all sealed in and untouchable).  So I move the down line lower in the handle and put the eyelet out further so I get more leverage on down and less on up.  Makes is much easier to fly.

[Bill Little]

The biggest advantage of a straight up handle is the ease of setup.  Every plane flys the same, if you make all the adjustments someplace else.

That being said, a Tom Morris style handle allows you to have a handle for each of the "special" planes that may need tweaks to the handle to fly right.  I got several and re-cut them all so the grip is smooth and parallel to the bar.  Then the overhand and position of each line can be tweaked to get the plane feel right.  For example, on plane is VERY touchy on up(controls are all sealed in and untouchable).  So I move the down line lower in the handle and put the eyelet out further so I get more leverage on down and less on up.  Makes is much easier to fly.

Hi Phil,

Tom also makes (or at least made) an "unbiased handle".  Pretty sure he still does.  Along with a "new" hard point handle.

Bill

[Brett Buck]

As I think about how this would work it just does not play out in my head.

I know everyone is different. When I hold a handle in my hand, from neutral I have more throw with down then I do up. I have not put a ruler on it, but it looks like I only move my wrist a little more then a inch for up, but I can move it several inches in the down direction. Maybe I am just looking at wrist movement and should consider that the arm moves as well to control the up and down of the plane.
<snip>
What am I missing?

   Pull your arm in so your elbow is about 90 degrees and your hand is right in front of your sternum. Your forearm will be at about a 45 degree angle to the axis of your shoulders. Then do the "up/down" thing - completely different and your wrist will naturally be upright.

    People's wrist geometry isn't all that variable.

    Brett

[Bill Little]

   Pull your arm in so your elbow is about 90 degrees and your hand is right in front of your sternum. Your forearm will be at about a 45 degree angle to the axis of your shoulders. Then do the "up/down" thing - completely different and your wrist will naturally be upright.

    People's wrist geometry isn't all that variable.

    Brett

Hmmmm.......... basically the exact same thing I posted! LOL!!!!!

Thanks, Brett.
Bill

[wwwarbird]

 I'm biased, I like mine non biased.

 Actually, when I think about it, I'm happy as long as I'm not holding onto a box with two silly flipper levers sticking out of it.

[Pat Johnston]

Can't help my self here.  I make for myself a clone copy of the Morris handle without the finger grips.  I make sure the bar is as reasonably close to perpendicular to the lines.  That way, the differential bias is zero.  Then the handle grip is at an angle not dissimilar to my revolvers or a 1911 Colt.  It is amazing just how the gun designers figured out a natural angle for the hand to hold the gun for ease of use.  I consider the flying handle the same sort of operation.  My handle angle rakes forward probably about 15 degrees which makes the plane fly very comfortable neutral in level flight and gives me a very equal feel for both up and down.
A thought about the feel of the grip.  No finger grooves with a llittle indentation for the little finger.  Then an epoxy finish for a couple coats, followed with a coat of epoxy on the grip area where the fingers wrapped around and ground garnet sprinkled on that area to supply a totally non-slip grip.  Works really well.  Smooth finished epoxy alone is slippery as an eel and will need something like the garnet or tennis tape, etc.
Pat Johnston
Skunk Works

[PerttiMe]

Then the handle grip is at an angle not dissimilar to my revolvers or a 1911 Colt. 
...
My handle angle rakes forward probably about 15 degrees which makes the plane fly very comfortable neutral in level flight and gives me a very equal feel for both up and down.

Do you fly with your arm pretty straight, like in a target shooting stance, or with the handle closer to the body?

The comments about hand angle when the handle is close to the body make sense to me.

[Randy Powell]

>>It is amazing just how the gun designers figured out a natural angle for the hand to hold the gun for ease of use.<<

If you fly with your arm extended then the only way to go is a tilted grip (with an attachment bar perpendicular to the lines). If you fly with your elbow bent and the handle right in front of you, the tilted arrangement won't work very well. I flew with a tilted handle as Pat outlines for a lot of years. In the past couple of seasons, I've move to a vertical grip because I moved my hand position and it works better.

[John Leidle]

   Last Spring I finally figured out how & why I need to set up my handle. It's pretty much the way Pat Johnson described it, in my case my up wrist swing is about half of my down swing. So I bias the handle with the top leaning forward about 3/4".
   John
 P.S. Not all wrists are created equal.

[Bill Little]

Can't help my self here.  I make for myself a clone copy of the Morris handle without the finger grips.  I make sure the bar is as reasonably close to perpendicular to the lines.  That way, the differential bias is zero.  Then the handle grip is at an angle not dissimilar to my revolvers or a 1911 Colt.  It is amazing just how the gun designers figured out a natural angle for the hand to hold the gun for ease of use.  I consider the flying handle the same sort of operation.  My handle angle rakes forward probably about 15 degrees which makes the plane fly very comfortable neutral in level flight and gives me a very equal feel for both up and down.
A thought about the feel of the grip.  No finger grooves with a llittle indentation for the little finger.  Then an epoxy finish for a couple coats, followed with a coat of epoxy on the grip area where the fingers wrapped around and ground garnet sprinkled on that area to supply a totally non-slip grip.  Works really well.  Smooth finished epoxy alone is slippery as an eel and will need something like the garnet or tennis tape, etc.
Pat Johnston
Skunk Works

Hi Pat,

You are correct in one aspect.

It is amazing just how the gun designers figured out a natural angle for the hand to hold the gun for ease of use.

  When I am shooting a pistol, at stationary targets, my arm is going to be pretty much fully extended, which as I said above, makes the hand tilt forward.  Single hand .45 match shooting pretty much means that even "I" have to straighten out my arm. LOL!!!!  That is anatomy.   But I have not flown a model airplane like that since 1963.[/b]  And while watching Billy and the other guys fly with a big bend in their elbow, I figured, why not.

If you bend the elbow, the hand will naturally assume a more perpendicular position.  Again, anatomy.

It is, after all, a strictly personal preference, but if you bend the elbow and leave the hand in the forward tilt, you will have problems, recognized or not.

Regards
Big Bear

[john e. holliday]

I have tried to concentrate on where my hand is, but after landing usually someone ask me who I am waving at.   I am kinda sold on the Fancher Hande.

[Clint Ormosen]

  It is amazing just how the gun designers figured out a natural angle for the hand to hold the gun for ease of use. 

....except for Glock. They must have used someone with a crooked wrist to model the angle of their grips.

[PerttiMe]

....except for Glock. They must have used someone with a crooked wrist to model the angle of their grips.

Dunno... The Glock angle seems to align things so there's less muzzle flip. If you want quick hits, it is probably best to stick to one angle, instead of switching between Glock and 1911 designs.

... better stick to the same stunt handle angle too, once you are sure about what works for you.

[Bill Little]

Dunno... The Glock angle seems to align things so there's less muzzle flip. If you want quick hits, it is probably best to stick to one angle, instead of switching between Glock and 1911 designs.

... better stick to the same stunt handle angle too, once you are sure about what works for you.

I agree!  It is best to stick with one style.  It might be good to try both styles and then decide on one.

On the gun side, I no longer even care for match shooting, so anything I have just needs to have "knock down power"...........

Big Bear

[Brett Buck]

What am I missing?

  You are probably holding your arm too straight. You aren't shooting a pistol.

     Brett

[Dennis Moritz]

Dan Banjok is adamant about using a no-bias handle. Bias handles in his (vehement) opinion limit movement for down elevator. Since Dan is even tempered about everything else in life -- wait, wait, there's an issue about vanilla ice cream and a right way to make a cheese steak -- so I have been flying as he prescribes. Early on I did try the conventionally biased handle and, low and behold, had to twist my arm down at a bad angle to get enough DOWN. I've seen the West Coast limp elbow look. Dunno. It looks so...

[Bill Little]

Dan Banjok is adamant about using a no-bias handle. Bias handles in his (vehement) opinion limit movement for down elevator. Since Dan is even tempered about everything else in life -- wait, wait, there's an issue about vanilla ice cream and a right way to make a cheese steak -- so I have been flying as he prescribes. Early on I did try the conventionally biased handle and, low and behold, had to twist my arm down at a bad angle to get enough DOWN. I've seen the West Coast limp elbow look. Dunno. It looks so...

Hi Dennis,

Billy Werwage ain't from the West Coast, nor is Bobby Hunt.  Neither fly with a straight arm........ few Walker Trophys and Wooley Cups there.......

And as much as I personally love Danny Boy, he ain't the only guy flying stunt.   A "few" others have flown on the World team, won the World's and the Walker Trophy at our own little NATS.  I do agree with Danny, non biased handles are the only way to go.  And I love to be around him, flying or not!

(not a knock against Dan Banjock, so don't start )
Big Bear

[Neal Beekman]

I just received Tom Morris Hard point Handles , I give it a # 1 rating  . Also for the price a really nice strong handle. Mine have about 1/2" line adjustment . I can't wait to use them but our field is under SNOW , and with this weather it looks to be a long time before we fly.

[Steve Helmick]

I've used both Tom Morris handles (biased and non-biased), but prefer the TED Handle because it weighs about half as much. Mine weigh 60g. each,  a touch over 2 oz.  I have not checked the weight of the Tom Morris handles, but could, if anybody wants to know. Weight matters most when line tension is low, of course.  Steve

[Ted Fancher]

I've used both Tom Morris handles (biased and non-biased), but prefer the TED Handle because it weighs about half as much. Mine weigh 60g. each,  a touch over 2 oz.  I have not checked the weight of the Tom Morris handles, but could, if anybody wants to know. Weight matters most when line tension is low, of course.  Steve

At our local flying sessions David Fitz, Brett Buck and I can routinely pick up one of the other guys' airplane and handle and fly it pretty much like we fly our own.  All use non-biased hard point handles with a vertical handle at neutral and--not co-incidentally, IMHO--have eleven Walker Cups, multiple US Team memberships and one World Championship among them.

Granted,  lots of others have equally impressive resumes but I'm not sure I'm aware of any (in the US) who advocate the use of a biased handle, angled at neutral.

Not proof of anything but pretty strong circumstantial evidence.

Ted

[Brett Buck]

I've seen the West Coast limp elbow look. Dunno. It looks so...

   Probably ought to look at the scoreboard, might look better then.

    Brett

[john e. holliday]

Some time just sit and watch guys like Billy W., Bobby H.  Paul W., Ted F.  and a few others while they are flying or practicing.  I've watch Billy fly numerous times and it looks like his hand never moves.  Same with some of the others.  I have spent a bit of time just watching the pilot and not the airplane unless I am judging, then I could care less who the pilot is.  It's amazing the scores some of the people get.  Even had a young man after finding out he had the high score for his circle wondered what the judges were looking at.   It does look different from the center.  I told him that his flight was better than the others and I wasn't even judging that circle.   

[Randy Cuberly]

One thing I haven't noticed mentioned here is how the handle is actually gripped in the hand.  From what I've noticed about folks that like biased handles, most grip the handle tightly in their hand with a full wrap around grip, sort of like one would hold a tennis racket.  Most that like a verticle handle (no bias) like me and most of the folks Ted Fancher mentioned do not grip the handle like that.  I grip the handle somewhat forward in my fingers and do not wrap the palm of my hand to the back of the handle.  In this position the handle sets very verticle in the hand and actually allows cleaner manipulation of the handle, especially in the down direction.  Further it allows some small corrections with the tension in the hand itself, as in further closing or opening the hand (small amounts of course).  Since I've seen these handle discussions on the forums I've tried gripping the handle "full hand" as I've seen some (mostly less experienced fliers) do and find it very limiting for me.  For me it's also very important that the handle just touch my hand on both top and bottom of my fingers (index and little finger).  Without that contact I find it more difficult to maintain solid level flight.
Like most things in life it probably depends a lot on what one gets used to but personally I think the "looser" grip is more accomodating to relaxed control.

Randy Cuberly

[Bill Little]

HI Randy,

I was once told by a Hall of Famer to hold a baseball bat like I was holding a baby bird and didn't want to hurt it. and out in the fingers as far as possible (same thing basically from a Hall of Fame Golf Pro with the Initials A.P. as far as "pressure") (!!).  Guess what, it proved to be a good idea.   And I always had the highest team batting average in the Conference when I was coaching using the same ideas.  Learned a bit about why that techinque was a good idea while getting my Master's with a specialty in exercise physiology.

I also hold a C/L handle like that..............   And as completely vertical as possible.   And as far as my hand touching the edges on the "inside" that's never a problem.  Sometimes getting all my fingers "Inside" the handle is! LOL!!!!!!!

(Disclaimer: Never won anything in CLPA, but love to try! And I am a sponge when I get around the good guys. LOL!!)

Big Bear

[Rafael Gonzalez]

One thing I haven't noticed mentioned here is how the handle is actually gripped in the hand.  From what I've noticed about folks that like biased handles, most grip the handle tightly in their hand with a full wrap around grip, sort of like one would hold a tennis racket.  Most that like a verticle handle (no bias) like me and most of the folks Ted Fancher mentioned do not grip the handle like that.  I grip the handle somewhat forward in my fingers and do not wrap the palm of my hand to the back of the handle.  In this position the handle sets very verticle in the hand and actually allows cleaner manipulation of the handle, especially in the down direction.  Further it allows some small corrections with the tension in the hand itself, as in further closing or opening the hand (small amounts of course).  Since I've seen these handle discussions on the forums I've tried gripping the handle "full hand" as I've seen some (mostly less experienced fliers) do and find it very limiting for me.  For me it's also very important that the handle just touch my hand on both top and bottom of my fingers (index and little finger).  Without that contact I find it more difficult to maintain solid level flight.
Like most things in life it probably depends a lot on what one gets used to but personally I think the "looser" grip is more accomodating to relaxed control.

Randy Cuberly

This is the way I fly also. After flying so many years using the "Hot Rock" in everything except carrier and considering myself a "C/L hack", I got used to the neutral of an unbiased handle. many years ago, I tried a Biased handle only to have my aircraft searching/hunting for Grubs on an outside combat maneuver.
My hold on the handle is not tight, as the tighter the hold, the less sensitivity I feel and the slower reaction is perceived. IT MAY BE TOTALLY PSYCHOSOMATIC. But I agree with the idea that whatever makes the pilot the most comfortable, should be the rule. I am very glad for safety thongs since I do not worry anymore about a fly-away after a mid air.

Best,

Rafael

[John Stiles]

 
 P.S. Not all wrists are created equal.

Boy you got that right, I am minus most of the biceps in my upper arm....and most of my larger planes pull like a horse. I try to bend my elbow, but with the big planes I wind up with a cramp between my elbow and shoulder. So I use a straight armed style while flying them. I noticed even with the straight armed style, my little trainees walk away from the ring holding their shoulder joint as if their arm was gonna fall off....but the smiles were always on their faces. I said all that to say this: there probly needs to be both kinds of handles, for a variety of good reasons. Anybody that wants to get rid of certain types of handles can mail them to me!

[john e. holliday]

This makes me think of years ago when Rat Racers were trying to pull the pilots out of the circle.   One noted pilot noticed that his arm kept getting tired.  He said he worked lifting weights and it didn't help.  Someone told him to turn around with the weight pully on the wall and him facing the wall.   Start pullng the weight and hold it to your chest.  Was told he was amazed at how much it hurt when he first started.  I watched this pilot fly almost every heat, the semis and final races.  He was still ready to go while the rest of us were collasping.   You know these weight machines that have the cables and pullies you push out from your chest?  Just turn around and start pulling it to your chest and hold it.   See if that helps with the bigger planes. 

[John Stiles]

You know these weight machines that have the cables and pullies you push out from your chest?  Just turn around and start pulling it to your chest and hold it.   See if that helps with the bigger planes. 

I think I remember those, Doc THese things they got now have big rubber bands on them . Maybe I should just do more work on my compound bow[flex]

[john e. holliday]

I've seen the Bow Flex commercials.   You still have to turn around and pull  the weight, not push it.

[Bill Little]

I've seen the Bow Flex commercials.   You still have to turn around and pull  the weight, not push it.

Up right rowing machine is one............

Big Bear