bf 109 phase one

[Mark Scarborough]

Greetings all, just thought I would show some of what I have been playing with since the first of the year. Its a profile Messershmidt bf109. It will have 570 square inches of wing. The wing is based on Pat Johnstons design for the Brodak P-40. Changed the tips and flap layout slightly to reflect a more accurate wing shape for the 109. Power is going to start off with a .40 FP. Paint will be prototypical scale. If this one flys well, the plans are about 75 percent drawn for the full fuse built up version. Right now I am looking at finished flying weight around 43 to 45 oz if things go the same way they are started now.
My P-40 Qship is in primer and ready to sand and paint as well. May end up painting both at the same time that way I can move back and forth to maximize my time without rushing each color. I will be using base clear autocolor system for finishing. The Q ship and this one will use catalyzed primer under the paint.
The wing cores were cut for my by Crist Rigotti and they are beautifull.
The right wing is completed , skinned with leading and trailing edges and rough sanded. The picture shows the clips and partial spar for the other wing awaiting assembly.
I should note the tail feathers are all built up. The horizantal and elevators are under two oz, the rudder is 14 grams and equiped to use a Rabe style Rudder.

[Randy Powell]

Well, no body else wants to comment, I think it's pretty cool. Nice woodwork, Mark. I like the detail on the rudder.

[Crist Rigotti]

Yup, nice looking model and good looking woodwork.

[Steve Helmick]

Really nice job, Mark! You have mail... Steve

[Russell Shaffer]

What exactly did you do in the motor mount area?  It looks like plywood inlaid over the mounts?  Instead of a standard ply doubler over the whole fuselage?  Is the fuselage balsa or something else?

[Mark Scarborough]

Good eyes there,
The area over the mounts is in fact laminated with 1/16"  ply, the doubler is 3 inches wide. The rest of the fuse is built up and covered with 1/16 balsa skins. This has several advantages, the ply reaches the wing for strength and yet  isnt larger than needed. With the balsa on the rest of the area, it eliminates the nastyness of having to blend the ply to make a nice radius on the edge. The tripler(balsa) is not shown on here yet but it ties all of that together. I cant take credit for this setup, I stoled it from Pat Johnston, (ok so actually he told me to do it!)
Thanks for the comments, I have both wings skinned and one tip carved, more picts when the progress dictates, if interest shows.
I am really enjoying this one, its my first ground up design. There is a molded skin full fuse version on the computer about 75% ready to start this spring I hope

[Bill Little]

Hi Mark,

Nice looking work!  Using proven numbers should assure a pretty good flying plane.

The sheeted/built up fuselage is a great idea, and you can't go wrong with wings from Crist, IMHO. Keep posting WIP pictures!

I want to build Don Hutcherson's SBD Dauntless soon.  Same type of basic fuselage layout.

Bill <><

[Randy Powell]

Mark,

Do you have a paint scheme picked out yet?

[john e. holliday]

Are plans for both the profile and built up going to be available?  Lookd great what you have done.  DOC Holliday

[Mark Scarborough]

I have a concept, as I said, it will be a prototypical scale paint scheme, however I will take some liberties as I see fit. The one of the schemes I have looked at is in a profile publication  and I dont have my scanner hooked up. however these are fairly close.. The camo pattern is greys of varying shades. counting national markings there will be nine colors involved  and lots of masking. Two colors on the upper surfaces , splinter pattern camo. Three colors on sides in the mottled pattern, and the underside is a different color. I am forcasting probably 20 hours for the application and masking of all the colors and depending upon whether I do panel lines and if so how involved I get will tell how much more it will take. No pearls or metalics on this baby,, two are basically about the same with minor differencs  The one exception is the one with the red and yellow "flames" this one intrigues me but probably wont use it. I think I am still on track for a low 40s flying weight.

[Mark Scarborough]

Doc,
Yes plans will be available, Rudy Taube in fact has a set of plans for the profile that I sent him. they are not polished yet but contain all the information needed to build.

[Leo Mehl]

Way to go Mark. It's not often that a fairly new flyer will experiment with his own design. So I give you an A for this and of course i have no doubts about your building and painting skills. Nice work and keep it up. Designing is one of the most rewarding things you can do. It also works the mind which in my case it's mostly overtime.

[Randy Powell]

Mark,

Hey, go with the red and yellow flames. That is just cool.

[Bill Little]

Mark,

Hey, go with the red and yellow flames. That is just cool.

I can "Gaaarrauontee" you that if I build a ME 109, that is EXACTLY the scheme I will use!  Never seen that one before.............

[Rudy Taube]

Mark's plans are so good I immediately stopped drawing up my own ME-109! His plane is well designed. It looks light and strong. I like his profile, and still may build it, but I really want a full fuselage ME-109, and I am looking forward to building Mark's full bodied design when he gets the plans completed.

I plan to use electric power. But I may also try to get a recording of the great sounding Daimler-Benz 12 cylinder engine to play during the flight. They are doing this in Europe already with their electric scale planes. They actually put sound systems and speakers in the plane, and hook it up to the TH to mimic the sound of the real engines. 

Great job Mark! Please keep the pictures coming.

[Willis Swindell]

Mike
I like to paint mine a little different Hope you do also
Willis 

[Mark Scarborough]

Nice profile Willis, Is that a Brodak? and do I see a fourstroke with a three blade, looks cool.
I like mine a bit different to for the most part, but!! I have a love affair with the grey / grey splinter camo with the yellow nose... However, the red "flame" job is getting more and more tempting by the day. Problem I am having is finding the RLM numbers for the greys, and what the planview for this camo is .
In any case, Here are a few more I have considered.
Allso attached a jpg of the status of the built up plans. I am rendering it in 3D mode in autocad. the Fuse crossections are scale as is the profile view. the wing and tail are oversized just as on the Profile version I am building now. The transfer process into jpg format doesnt really translate all that well but good enough for a tease!

[Rudy Taube]

However, the red "flame" job is getting more and more tempting by the day. Problem I am having is finding the RLM numbers for the greys, and what the planview for this camo is .

Hi Mark,

The ME 109  RLM Greys are .... RLM 66 (dark grey),  RLM 74 (Medium grey), RLM 75 (light grey). There is also an RLM 76 that is somewhere between a very light grey and a light grey/blue color.

If you need any other colors, please let me know. One of my ME 109 books has all the ME 109 RLM colors listed, along with hundreds of color schemes, both profile and plan view. I'm sure you have a complete library, but if you need one more book, my favorite is;  Messerschmitt Me 109, Vol II From 1942 to 1945, by Dominique Breffort and Andre Jouineau, Available from Amazon.com

I'm looking forward to building your full bodied ME 109 when you get the plans completed. Like you, I am having trouble settling on a paint scheme. There are many good ones to choose from. :-)

Regards

[Mark Scarborough]

Thanks Rudy,
I do have somehting you may have reference for, the scheme with the red flames, I am not familiar with the camo type, It doesnt appear to be the standard splinter style on the upper surfaces. the closest I can figure is theat it is a winter camo scheme, but cant find a top view to illustrate what it is actually configured like. Any thoughts?I suppose I could just bash it, use the grey grey splinter on the uppers and the mottled sides but use the Red markings, I mean after all I am not building for scale competition right? but still I would like to be as accurate as reasonable.
Thanks for the kind words about my plans, I am debating about my built up being electric or wet, will probably accomadate both on the planset. The biggest issue is for cooling the batteries, I plan on using the cooler vent under the chin for intake, not sure about exhaust yet for the cooling air.
I too have a broad selection of books, with many schemes in them, but this one eludes me for a reference. Isnt that the way,, sigh,,

[Rudy Taube]

Thanks Rudy,
I do have something you may have reference for, the scheme with the red flames, I am not familiar with the camo type,
Thanks for the kind words about my plans, I am debating about my built up being electric or wet, will probably accommodate both on the planset. The biggest issue is for cooling the batteries, I plan on using the cooler vent under the chin for intake, not sure about exhaust yet for the cooling air.
but this one eludes me for a reference. Isnt that the way,, sigh,,

Hi Mark,

WILCO on the flame research :-)

I have the drawings for my Electric Vector, showing multiple cooling vents, baffles, etc. for the Motor, battery, and other electronics. I will have pictures of the modified plane available next week. I have to go sailing this weekend, so there will be a few days delay in getting you the info. I also have a good video on painting camo on our planes, I will send it to you next week.

Regards

[Willis Swindell]

Mark
Yes it is a brodak kit. I spaced each rib  1/8 inch which added 2 inches to the wing span and lengthened the fuselage one inch and moved the landing gear to the wing. How are you going to lay out your landing gear? I fly on grass so I left off my landing gear spats.
Willis   

[Bill Little]

Hi Mark,

The ME 109  RLM Greys are .... RLM 66 (dark grey),  RLM 74 (Medium grey), RLM 75 (light grey). There is also an RLM 76 that is somewhere between a very light grey and a light grey/blue color.

If you need any other colors, please let me know. One of my ME 109 books has all the ME 109 RLM colors listed, along with hundreds of color schemes, both profile and plan view. I'm sure you have a complete library, but if you need one more book, my favorite is;  Messerschmitt Me 109, Vol II From 1942 to 1945, by Dominique Breffort and Andre Jouineau, Available from Amazon.com

I'm looking forward to building your full bodied ME 109 when you get the plans completed. Like you, I am having trouble settling on a paint scheme. There are many good ones to choose from. :-)

Regards

Hi Rudy,

Thanks for the color references!  I haven't done much research on German colors since the early '70s when I was build IPMS plastic fighters.  I do have a tin of Humbrol "hellblau" left over but I don't know if it is still usable!   I bought some of the "Perfect" Camoflauge paints many years ago to do a FW-190D-9 Jemco kit.  Don't have a clue as to what happened tothe paints since I got out of R/C before I finished the plane.

I really researched the Japanese colors back then, it was pretty interesting.

Thanks!
Bill <><

[Mark Scarborough]

Willis
I am using a foam core, When Crist cut it for me we set it up for conventional clips and spar setup. The inner clip is 3 inchs off centerline. When I made the landing gear blocks to go in the clips, I arranged them so that the torque arm goes up on the outboard clip. This will put the gear leg coming out of the wing 3 inchs off centerline which for the fuse profile I am using is the scale location give or take a fraction. With the scale cant on the gear legs this puts the centerline of the wheels about ten inchs apart which will be reasonable for landings I beleive. I have had other planes with this narrow of gear and never had a problem (yet,,, Knock on wood). My gear blocks are under the skin of the wing so that the plates that hold them in place will be flush with the wing surface. This gear set up is designed around the built up fuse version. Again allowing me to test it in a "simpler" profile configuration before the molded shell getrs started. Another teaser, the built up fuse is about 4 inches wide and 6 inches tall at the cockpit area. If it works out, the angles I have established with the torque arms will allow me to reverse the gear from right side to left side and vise versa, which will move the wheels forward for grass, and aft for pavement flying. I have to fly off both for contest work and I have noted there is definetly a need for being able to move the wheels fore and aft. If my geometry doesnt work out I guess I can always resort to having two sets of gear legs. Incidently, the wing has dihedral which allows me to place the wing root in the scale location. Partial span flaps similar to the Brodak P-40. I will most likely build my flaps up and skin them as I did for the tail surfaces.

[Bill Little]

Hey, Mark!

You are really doing a bang up job with this!  I wish you all the luck there can be that this project works out even better than you hope.

To design from the ground up, basically, is the true meaning of Scratch building, and the highest form of model aircraft involvement in my opinion!

I have a similar "style" project in the works, different subject, and I am not ready to spread the word yet.  But it is "my" first attempt (help from F-4-F Guy) to do aomething along these lines.

Keep on trucking!
Bill <><

Bill <><

[Willis Swindell]

Mark
Here is a web sight I use for ideas for painting fighters and such. Lots of planes captured by other country's .

Wings Palette

Check fighter then type of fighter then country then which page.
Willis

http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww2/f

[proparc]

Mark,
Talk to me brother about that lofting technique you got going on in Autocad.

[Andrew Borgogna]

To all that seem bent on referring to the bf109 as the ME109; there NEVER was an ME109.  The Luftwaffe did not allow Willie Messerschmitt to put his initials on the plane as was the custom of the time in Nazi Germany.  The reason given was Herr Willie and the leader of the air force Herman Goring did not like each other for reason I do not know.  But Herr Goring being the man in charge vented his anger by refusing to let Herr Willie append the letters ME to the 109.  This restrictions was later lifted hence the ME262 and others. 

Please in future try to remember there never was an ME109 but there was a great German plane called the bf109 that American bomber crews grew to hate.
Andy
 

[john e. holliday]

Mark
Here is a web sight I use for ideas for painting fighters and such. Lots of planes captured by other country's .

Wings Palette

Check fighter then type of fighter then country then which page.
Willis

http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww2/f

Thanks Willis,  Now to find the scheme I need for my P-39.  Putting base coats on now.   DOC Holliday

[Mark Scarborough]

To all,
thanks so very much for the encouragment! It makes the effort that much sweeter to have it appreciated. That is one of the best things I have learned since starting to fly again last year after a 20 plus year hiatis from the hobby.So many people of like spirit , willing to share and help.
Ok enough mushy stuff, lol,, Milton, you asked about the lofting technique I use? I am drawing this plane in 3D. It was very important to me that when completed it was easily recognizable as a bf109, so by drawing it in a 3D model, I am able to rotate it and look at it from any view or angle and get a fairly real sense of what it is looking like.
 Readers digest version, I imported a jpg file of a three view into cad. Using a spline I traced the formers and gave them a datum line. I moved each former shape to a seperate layer for easse of manipulating. Then using arcs and circles I "cleaned up each former trace. I rotated my view, drew a datum line and marked each distance off then simply pasted the former outlines on the datum line, now it becomes a drawing in 3d space. I was thinking that perhaps there might be enoug interest in cad that I would do a write up for Sparkies magazine outlining some of my techniques if there was enough interest. It seems there are more and more modelers that are trying to draw plans in Cad, ( Escept for Randy,, something about the sound of a pencil and eraser on a peice of paper being more pure or some such  ) I also thought I could go over how I loft a set of ribs. Let me know if there is interest, if not then I will answer in more detail in a private manner as to not "waste" others time not interested.Just in way of background, I do cad 40 hrs a week and restore cars about 20 a week, good skills to have in this hobby huh!
Again, thanks for all the feedback, Hope to have some progress made soon, but this weekend turned out to be a push on the 55 >Ford< Tbird trying to get it in final primer.

[Randy Powell]

Mark,

Hey, I use a CAD program for menial task such as lofting ribs and formers and such. I just like to draw. So shoot me.

[Mark Scarborough]

Now now Randy,
I certainly wasnt slamming you for liking paper,, My thing is that my "drawing board" doesnt take up my whole shop space. I too draw some things by hand and there is a certain reward to be sure that cheating with a magic box takes away. BUt just like Pat, I use it every day so its more second nature to me. And besides that, I cant find my pencil sharpener~

[TigreST]

To all that seem bent on referring to the bf109 as the ME109; there NEVER was an ME109.  The Luftwaffe did not allow Willie Messerschmitt to put his initials on the plane as was the custom of the time in Nazi Germany.  The reason given was Herr Willie and the leader of the air force Herman Goring did not like each other for reason I do not know.  But Herr Goring being the man in charge vented his anger by refusing to let Herr Willie append the letters ME to the 109.  This restrictions was later lifted hence the ME262 and others. 

Please in future try to remember there never was an ME109 but there was a great German plane called the bf109 that American bomber crews grew to hate.
Andy
 

Andy,
  I thought it was that Willie had Goerings ear and was also a favorite of the Nazi party members and it was Kurt Tank of Focke-Wulf fame who was on the outs with the establishment for the longest of times?  The Fw-190 never carried Kurk Tanks handle until the inception of the Ta-152C-0  and Ta-152H-1,..Ta-154 Mosquito etc etc which was somewhat late in Tanks career.  Willie was the darling of the establishment that could do no wrong.  Or am I wrong?  Me(Messerschmitt AG)  replaced Bf  [Bayerische Flugzeugwerke (Bavarian Aircraft Works)],   after Willie took over as head of Messerschmitt AG.  The RLM tagged the aircraft to follow suit,..which brought to life the "Me" tag to all Messerschmitt types regardless of vintage.  Some continued on with the old tags out of habit.  Kurt Tank was the one shunned by the party members regardless of how good his designs were.  At least that's my understanding.

Tony

[Bill Little]

Hi Tony,

Years ago, doing research on a FW 190-D9 for IPMS contest usage, I remember reading something along those lines about Kurt.  Don't remember where and it was 33-34 years ago!

More recently, on "Wings of the Luftwaffe" (Discovery Channel??) there was some discussion on that topic.  BTW:  I liked the Wagner that they played in the background during that show. (Klien was our family name originally, a few hundred years ago! Klien=Little, or small, in German!)

Bill <><

[Rudy Taube]

Hi Tony,

Your understanding is perfect. ..... And Bill's memory is better than he thinks 

Regards,
Rudolph Taube

PS: Andrew, ...... Goring and Rudolf Hess were close personal friends of Willi. And they backed him in everything he did. ...... The problem you may be thinking of was with Erhard Milch, who was the head of Lufthansa before the war. A transport plane Willi had designed for him had the first two crash and killed one of Erhards best friends. Erhard held it against Willi. When Erhard became the head of the RLM (Reich Aviation Ministry) he tried to make trouble for Willi, but was stopped cold by Willi's friends, Goring, Hess, and others.

The plane started as a Messerschmidt bf 109 in 1936 then went to be called an Me 109 in 1938, but it always had the Messerschmidt name on it.  I hope this clears up any misunderstanding about the most produced plane in history, the great Me109?

[Andrew Borgogna]

I am clearly not a historian, but the story I relayed if memory serves me came from the old Discover program "Wings".  My source could have been wrong, but what I wrote is what was presented.  I will do a little more research on the subject.  Google and Wikapedia for starts.  But I still believe my basic premise that there never was an ME-109 is correct.
Andy

[Andrew Borgogna]

An update on the bf109.
It seems it was a friend of Goring named Milch that disliked Willie M. and in fact tried to prevent Willie from participating in the plans to build a new German fighter.  You are correct the bf comes from BFW the name of the complany before Willie M. took over.

What's worst is ME is considered valid and accurate by this information.  Oh the pain of it, I will stick to engineering and leave the history to historian.
Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa Mea Maxima Culpa.

This information was gleaned from Wikapedia.

"Bf 109 was the initial Reichsluftfahrtministerium (the German Air Ministry) designation, since the design was sent in by the Bayerische Flugzeugwerke company, and used exclusively in all official German documents dealing with this aircraft family. After the company was renamed to Messerschmitt AG after July 1938, when Erhard Milch finally allowed Willy Messerschmitt to acquire the company, from that date forward, all Messerschmitt aircraft were to carry the "Me" designation — at least in theory, as wartime documents from Messerschmitt AG, the RLM and others continued to use both designations, sometimes even on the same page! Me 109 is known to have been the name used in print by the Luftwaffe propaganda publications as well as by the Messerschmitt company itself after July 1938, and the Luftwaffe personnel, who pronounced it may hundert-neun. The Me 109 (pronounced "emm ee one-oh-nine") designation was usually used in the English-speaking world. However, in both wartime and contemporary literature, both the "Bf" and "Me" prefixes are used, and both are considered valid and accurate — although some debate still occurs over this issue from time to time."

Andy

[Randy Powell]

So Mark, made any more progress?

[Mark Scarborough]

Hey Randy,
I got a bit done, I was actually block sanding on the 55 Tbird mos tof the weekend (thats the car) I did get my adj leadout mech fabricated, the outboard tip block and weight box are done and installed. started cutting parts for the inboard tip. When I got home I didnt feel much like sanding balsa after sanding primer every day for 10 hours! so I spent some time working on the plans for the Ballerina III that I am drawing for Bill. I will be back on it tonight though to be sure!want to get thewing tip done and tacked so I can shape it and hollow it tonight.
Hows the green popsicle coming along?

[Randy Powell]

It's officially been named the Green Weeny. Has two colors on and about 2/3 taped for the third color. Hope to finish that tonight and shoot the third color. Then all I'll have is a couple of little highlights to finish.

[Mark Scarborough]

I want to see pictures Randy! sheesh keeping us all in suspense, suppose I should post this over on your thread about your plane huh!
for everybody else, heres a link to why I havent been getting much done on the plane lately,, We did the bodywork on the aluminum panels and the paint work, It had kinda a pretty hard deadline as this car went into the NHRA museum during the Pomona race.Pat Foster, drag racer of Old does his restorations just down the road from our shop. Its a priveledge and honor to work on something as historic as this,, and this car did fly in its day! It also has wings, so its almost like working on a plane

http://www.nitrogeezers.com/Cars%20-%20Candies%20&%20Hughes.htm