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General control line discussion => Open Forum => Topic started by: frank williams on April 12, 2022, 06:54:36 PM
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Does anyone have pictures or plans for this plane. I think Cris Cox had one several years ago. Any plans?
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I know Alan Rensinger built at least one and probably more years ago
If he doesn’t chime in, PM me and I will give you his contact information
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The whole Berringer family came for the 2004 WC at Muncie. Gilbert was flying a twin, but I think Remi was flying a Sportster. I just digitized the Windy Videos for the 2004 WC and I believe there are flight videos of at least two flights of each. These are posted on the Walt Brownell Channel, under the NATS and Contests heading. I have a set of plans for one of Gilbert's designs, but I don't think it's the Sportster. I'll have to see if I can dig those out tomorrow.
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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Here are some plans for the Beringer Sukhoi.
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Frank, I Think Steve Moon Had one in or around 2005? He folded the wing while flying it at Hobby Park in Dallas.
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Here are some plans for the Beringer Sukhoi.
The Sukhoi is what I think I have, but will still try to locate them to be certain. I don't remember where I got them, and don't really know where to look other that from Gilbert himself. He owns a company that specializes in aircraft wheel, brakes and other hydraulic components you you can most likely track him down that way. He usually comes to Oshkosh every year and sets up a display
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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Yes, Chris had one. I got a flight on it. One was enough. It required the pilot to fly it 100% of the time. Could not relax in level flight or anywhere.
Not my flying style of plane.
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Yes, Chris had one. I got a flight on it. One was enough. It required the pilot to fly it 100% of the time. Could not relax in level flight or anywhere.
Not my flying style of plane.
More or less extreme than the Yatsenko Shark? Because that's what struck me about the Shark, too. I marvel at Orestes' ability to drive that thing around at, er, "5 feet" (TBR) like it was rolling on a pool table.
The Skyray flies that way, too, and if you look at the proportions compared to the Sporster, you can see why. Killer at times, wandering all over with even a slight loss of attention.
Brett
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Thanks all
I remember Steve had one at one time.
The numbers on this plane push the limits. The pitch damping terms that count are equal to the MaxBee, (St/Sw) * (Lt/c)**2
I saw Remi fly it at the 2004 WC. I assume the numbers are the same between the Sportster and the Suhkoi. I wonder if one would work with electric? The cowl diameter is about 6 inch. You could put the motor, the timer, and the ESC inside the ring.
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Frank
I think I have a set of those plans. They called it a Gee Bee, But it is barely recognizable as such. Gotta dig to find them.
Jim
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Frank
I think I have a set of those plans. They called it a Gee Bee, But it is barely recognizable as such. Gotta dig to find them.
Jim
Thanks Jim but I thhink I found a set for the Suhkoi.
Frank
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The pitch damping terms that count are equal to the MaxBee, (St/Sw) * (Lt/c)**2
Frank: for those of us not familiar with "pitch damping terms" could you provide a little more understanding (or tutorial)? And particulary in relationship to our little airpanes and how they fly?
Thanks!
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More or less extreme than the Yatsenko Shark? Because that's what struck me about the Shark, too. I marvel at Orestes' ability to drive that thing around at, er, "5 feet" (TBR) like it was rolling on a pool table.
Brett
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I have flown Orestes" shark also..Yes, in that aspect they are similar. The shark has more line tension forcing you to pay more attention, and seemed to be "easier" to make rounds. Not sure I would want to fly the Sportster in a strong wind.
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Thanks Jim but I think I found a set for the Suhkoi.
Frank
Just briefly ... more after lunch .... but
The equations of motion for our little airplane are just like for big little airplanes (with the exception of the force of the lines coming out of the wing) Sure, there are Reynolds number differences that change the aerodynamics forces somewhat, but big plane little plane we have forces that act on the surfaces and produce dynamic responses and actions. So the basic dynamic equations are the same. .....back in a bit ...
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One strange design feature in Beringer designs is a purposely flexible flap horn. The horn wire is quite long, and if I remember right, Gilbert said it has to be of ø2mm (0,078") piano wire. So the flaps flex up/down under load in tight manoeuvres. Gilbert was talking of "deep stall", whatever it means. L
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The pitch damping terms that count are equal to the MaxBee, (St/Sw) * (Lt/c)**2
So if you move the CG back on one of these to get the same pitch damping as a normal stunt plane, would that make it squirrely in level flight?
You had a really long airplane at the Nats one year. How did it fly? I probably asked you at the time and forgot your answer.
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One strange design feature in Beringer designs is a purposely flexible flap horn. The horn wire is quite long, and if I remember right, Gilbert said it has to be of ø2mm (0,078") piano wire. So the flaps flex up/down under load in tight manoeuvres. Gilbert was talking of "deep stall", whatever it means. L
Would that act like Igor's nonlinear flap linkage, but as a function of load rather than control position? It would be a function of density and airspeed, too. Maybe it compensates for hinge moment or something.
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I had a response that got lost in the ether .... probably forgot to hit POST .. I think I fell asleep ....
.... anyway the basic point was that we talk about tail volume coefficient (TVC) at length as a measure of how well the plane will damp after a corner. Its a good figure of merit, although not totally the answer to damping. But, remembering that the tail volume coefficient wasn't something that someone set out to derive. TVC is just a collection of terms that just happen to be floating around in the equations of motion. We group together these terms Sh /Sw * Lt / c into TVC. But .... the eom's have something else for the moment terms. There is another Lt / c present. So we really should be using TVC * Lt/c for the comparison for stunt ships one to another The Lt/c term is squared, which makes the Lt very significant.
The fly in the ointment is that as the tail length increases, the induced incidence angle on the stab/elev as it swings through the turn kills its purpose in the first place. That's with a standard 50/50 stab elevator. We need an all flying tail to overcome this effect. It is notable that the Berringer designs have elevator flippers. The long tailed Eratix and Giles converted 3D RC's that we used have flippers. The problem with all flying tails or flippers though, is that you potentially have trouble flying level.
The initial feeling with a long tailer, is that you cant believe how well the corner is damped. But then .... gee I'd like a little tighter turn, and you can't seem to get it. You need flippers that become active at a higher deflection but are invisible around neutral.
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One strange design feature in Beringer designs is a purposely flexible flap horn. The horn wire is quite long, and if I remember right, Gilbert said it has to be of ø2mm (0,078") piano wire. So the flaps flex up/down under load in tight manoeuvres. Gilbert was talking of "deep stall", whatever it means. L
I had heard that they said the flaps weren't really needed, but they put them on just so people wouldn't say "well it would fly better if it had flaps for sure"
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So if you move the CG back on one of these to get the same pitch damping as a normal stunt plane, would that make it squirrely in level flight?
You had a really long airplane at the Nats one year. How did it fly? I probably asked you at the time and forgot your answer.
I think the long tailed plane at the Nats, that I had circumcised the flippers.
I've only flown one Shark , it was setup so sensitive that it really scared me, but it would turn. It would take a long time to get comfortable with a plane that sensitive. I don't know if Orestes' is that sensitive.
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https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/j262/kickercoach12/.highres/WHicksRemi-2.jpg I purchased the Berringer Sportster from Chris Cox . Excellent Airplane Saito 62 52 oz weight. used large high pitch prop run at 6700 rpm to slow it down large diameter made it more stable .
2nd picture https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/j262/kickercoach12/.highres/WHicksRemi-1.jpg
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Quite strong wash-out in them Beringer props:
L
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Quite strong wash-out in them Beringer props:
Where do they get their props or how do they manufacture them?
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They (used to?) make them. I’ve seen the machinery; a home-made manual copy-mill. Then lots of hand finishing. So I guess no big series were/are made. L
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Hi Frank
Yes, I’m pretty sure I can dig out the plans if you would like. The Sportster was a really cool plane, but as Paul mentioned, it was a real handful yo fly. The picture Walter posted was indeed mine. I think I liked looking at it a whole lot more than flying it. 😂
Let me know if you would like a set of the plans and I will find them for you.
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Quite strong wash-out in them Beringer props:
It flew like that, too - coming to a near dead stop in the corners, then accelerating away, really markedly different even from the outside. I never flew it, of course.
Brett
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They (used to?) make them. I’ve seen the machinery; a home-made manual copy-mill. Then lots of hand finishing. So I guess no big series were/are made. L
I used to see the Beringers at Oshkosh each year. The Beringers own a company that make aircraft wheels, brakes, hydraulic fittings and other accessories and they make REALLY nice stuff! They have a display there each year and we invited them out to the KidVenture circles to fly from time to time at after noon demonstrations. The whole family flies C'L stunt. The first year they came I think was the year Remi won the world champs. We had Gilbert, Veronique, Remmi and the oldest daughter all fly stunt demonstrations at one time or another. At the time I was just beginning to sort of understand how to operate the Saito .56 in a Top Flite Score I have and getting some satisfying and consistent flights from it. The Beringers would hang out at the tent and I got to pick Gilbert's brain a bit about running the Saitos and one year I invited him to fly my Score. I was beginning to get the hang of it by that time and when he was finished I asked him for an honest opinion on it and how it ran and flew and he gave me a thumbs up on it! I wasn't smart enough at that time to see if he would sell me a coup-le of his props! I don't think they made them for general sale. I understood at the time that they were made with that wash out and that they were designed to flex a bit under the load in the turns. They never did bring any of their own equipment to fly, just used what we provided. They were there for business reasons and concentrated on that, but are very nice people and a pleasure to be around and talk with.
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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Thanks Chlris , I think I've rounded up plans. It was a pretty plane.
The "washed out" prop is very interesting. Thanks for the description Lauri. Need to run that distribution through Java Prop.
It looks like 6.0 6.5, 6.5, 6.0 5.0 3.25
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Pitchers ,
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2110/2350280072_b7ee2a9139_b.jpg)
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2127/2374617077_654ddcc288_o.jpg)
(https://library-modelaviation.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/styles/full_page/s3/ma/ma200411/ma200411_025.jpg)
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMRNgLhWpLU
these have to be built L I G H T .
I believe theres no spar webs ( vertical ) Likely really springy balsa for the spars . For a bit of seagull -> the wings wave a bit to absorb gusts . Believe that was the Flap Trip Too .
Big Bump & they dont catch it - they deflect . Particulary so as not to induce roll . I heard .
CHECK the Drg. Re L.E. Sheeting . HIS CAUDRON obviously Does Not Have It ! ! .
(https://downloader.disk.yandex.ru/preview/93e321eb89cdba5245a5d13d774b7f5e2d8d0759d1d3ecf5511fa05e272b9d97/626905eb/2aYguT5hAz5kR8776DGoiVoJlKOqXKeP4xJOqtDU3HtAAdU-VOMP_xUZul8_Ei3Nq_J6bpmRyOJonT3VoXnDag%3D%3D?uid=0&filename=126.jpg&disposition=inline&hash=&limit=0&content_type=image%2Fjpeg&owner_uid=0&tknv=v2&size=1903x912)
(http://media.fotki.com/1_p,rrqfbgwssrfsqsrxfgbfwgkwtrkg,vi/rkttfwdrwxwgwdqsgkkxrdfqfgqrg/2/1196742/13557889/00981-vi.jpg)
Will put the others on , Whats a Caudron to a Sportster anyway ? .
(http://media.fotki.com/1_p,rrqfbgwswssfstdxfgbfwgkwtrkg,vi/rkttfwdrwxdbqfqdfkxwtwtqtfwk/2/1196742/13557889/00979-vi.jpg)
(http://media.fotki.com/1_p,rrqfbgwwbdssdggxfgbfwgkwtrkg,vi/rkttfwdrwxwwgddrsrtxdbqfqdfk/2/1196742/13557889/00977-vi.jpg)
https://aerocirculairesainte.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/bando-7-copier.jpgre WE . SPORTSTER . ! been a few built in Aus. Battam & Co .
(https://aerocirculairesainte.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/e-france-2006.jpg?w=924&h=476)
The Lad is REMI , think Gilbert's first thing was a SPITFIRE , perhaps SHEEKS or a derivative ?? ( If So , Thats where the Berringer line emanated ! )So , a Pic . !
(https://aerocirculairesainte.files.wordpress.com/2020/02/spitfire-marc-gabion.jpg)
Phaw !. https://aerocirculairesainte.files.wordpress.com/2020/12/ic-27-mai-2003.pdf The PLAN for the Ber. Spit. !!!!
(https://aerocirculairesainte.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/bando-7-copier.jpg)
FROM ; https://aerocirculairesainte.wordpress.com/
Reg Towell has done many Berringer Derived planes , therefore the critical mass fits his derivational linage ?
(https://aerocirculairesainte.files.wordpress.com/2021/10/img-20211010-wa0000.jpg)
Well , You Did say ' PICTURES ' !
Bare Wood Sportster HERE : https://aerocirculairesainte.files.wordpress.com/2019/07/ic10.pdf : Last Page .
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AM
Thanks for the Pitchers and video .... rounds are quite impressive! ..... Spitzy is unique plane too ... Saito run was solid ....
Thanks again
Frank
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Thanks Chlris , I think I've rounded up plans. It was a pretty plane.
The "washed out" prop is very interesting. Thanks for the description Lauri. Need to run that distribution through Java Prop.
It looks like 6.0 6.5, 6.5, 6.0 5.0 3.25
Thanks Frank, I’ll stand down.
Cheers!
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It flew like that, too - coming to a near dead stop in the corners, then accelerating away, really markedly different even from the outside. I never flew it, of course.
Brett
Yep. Someone should calculate the tip angle of attack during level flight.. L
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Yep. Someone should calculate the tip angle of attack during level flight.. L
Back of the blade, I am sure it is negative, but to make any use of the information you need the camber.
Brett
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If I calculate it on my electric from Rpm, lap time and line length, then my 12x5 3 blade has -1,7 AoA at chord line.