Berkeley FALCON 35

[Motorman]

Who has built the Berkeley FALCON 35 and powered it with a Fox 35 stunt. Would like to know about flight characteristics, set up, props ect. Better/worse than a Nobler? Seems like a good plane for the Fox35 designed by Duke himself. Are there similar planes that would be Old Time legal? 

Thanks,
MM

[Dave_Trible]

I'd be a little surprised if there were many still around with much knowledge of it.  It IS NOT old time-it IS Classic.   I have an original kit which I will build sooner of later.  Duke said he designed it really as a test rig for his engines.   I'm not sure how competitive it might be built as the kit presents-it does not have working wing flaps.
Now MY history with it.   In the mid 60's my dad bought this kit at a local hobby shop.   It had been around for a number of years and somehow the kit had no plans with it.  We had just been in the hobby a year or two at that time but had been around the KC CL crowd at Swope Park for a while.   Everything being flown in the area had working wing flaps.   These would be the Skylark,  Ares, Nobler , Ballerina and Magician for 'learners'.   All had flaps.   So Dad built ours with working wing flaps.  Other than that it looked like the one on the box.   He had bought a new Johnson .35 and so that's what he put in it.  I was the pilot-dad never got beyond level flight.  It was pretty light despite the cloth covering and seemed to float around effortlessly under power and glide forever when the engine quit.  Dad forever called it the 'floater',  the flaps may have helped cause that in the glide.   At some point I guess I must have put it in.  I remember the remains up in dad's attic for many years after.   When I build the kit I have I MAY build it with flaps since our 'mistake' back in 1965 made it legal that way for classic today!   I haven't decided whether to go with a Fox engine or slip in a Johnson like our first one!

Dave

[Motorman]

Great story. Too bad it missed the cut off for old time. 

[Dave_Trible]

I'd have to dig the kit out to look but it I think the plans are dated 1960-eight years too new for old time.   The  airplane was really obsolete when it was designed.   It fits better in the 'worthless' time slot.  That would be from 1952 till about 1955-56 when the newer generation designs appeared (Neptune, Atom etc.) with flaps and the Fox .35.   This dead spot produced designs that are too new for old time but not up to speed to compete with the better airplanes.  The Super Ringmaster would be another in that dead spot.   There are really quite a few.  I'd risk to say that whenever the ending dates for old time were set it may have been better to push it up to about 1955 instead of 1952.....based on the airplanes in the time period.

Dave

[Dennis Adamisin]

My dad built a Falcon.  He only a few flights as it had a (built in) tank problem.  I flew it a bit, I think it flew well for what it was.  Think of it as a modernized Duper Zilch - remember Duke had purchased the Berkley kit line by then..

Sorry to contribute to thread drift but I agree completely with Dave T that there were several designs that are outside the 1952 OTS window but for all intents & purposes are still OTS era design CONTENT.  That is, numerous post 1952 designs could fly in OTS with no competitive advantage.  Super Ringer & Falcon are technically Classic designs that would not stand a chance in Classic and (worse) will not even get built anymore.

[Dennis Toth]

Agree with Dennis A.

Best,   DennisT

[Andre Ming]

"1952-1960 dead zone."

Seriously? You mean two consecutive classes, "Old Time" and "Classic", have an 8 year gap??

That doesn't seem like it was thought out very well.

In the historic motorcycle competition scene I was a part of for over 10 years, each era is defined to within the year so no such gaps exist.

Andre

[Dave_Trible]

Hello Andre!   Well yes sort of.   You can absolutely enter your Super Ringmaster in Classic.   That is where it technically belongs but it would never stand much of a chance against airplanes that came along just a few years later.   I guess you could call it a transition period.   By about 1955 some very impressive and very good flying airplanes started to come along that marked a new 'class' altogether.   However those preceding years after glow engines came along very many designers and kit makers were trying to make a mark and a buck in the hobby business during it's real hayday after the war.  Veco's early airplanes,  Sterling, Jim Walker,  Johnny Casburn,  Top Flite and others were producing airplanes that would soon be competitively outdated but they still pumped the kits into the hobby shop food chain which served them and the average modeler well.

Dave   

[Brett Buck]

"1952-1960 dead zone."

Seriously? You mean two consecutive classes, "Old Time" and "Classic", have an 8 year gap??

That doesn't seem like it was thought out very well.

In the historic motorcycle competition scene I was a part of for over 10 years, each era is defined to within the year so no such gaps exist.

Andre

   The same thing has been happening all along, people were building effectively obsolete airplanes from prior eras, and are still doing it. Heck, my current airplane is arguably an obsolete design from a prior era. In fact, next year it becomes eligible for "rolling cutoff Classic" or whatever we call it, and, I have the exact same engine and prop that I first flew it in 1995. That would still be about as competitive as it was then, and I am trying to drag it along with whatever remaining knowledge, experience, and skills I have managed to retain.

    It's different in the era Dave mentions, just because the rate of change was drastically different and over the period of 10 years you go from a Stuntwagon/Ringmaster to a Shark 45 (the first Humbler was from 1959) along with a massive rules change. Stunt performance does not progress in a smooth progression, it has long stagnant periods interrupted by leaps of various degrees.  I have my opinions about where those breaks would be, I am sure others have alternative break points, but there are definitely a series of step functions.

 Given that all the "nostalgia" classes seem to be rapidly fading in attendance (along with the people who experienced it), I can't see breaking it up further, and even if you did, there would be maybe one or two designs that are better or far better than the rest. It's also why classes like OTS are more like semi-goofy fun flies rather than diehard competitions. Only a few people are really dead serious about OTS, Classic, "rolling cutoff classic", Super 70s, etcs, everyone else just does it as a lark to kill time on Saturdays.

    Brett

[Brett Buck]

Hello Andre!   Well yes sort of.   You can absolutely enter your Super Ringmaster in Classic.   That is where it technically belongs but it would never stand much of a chance against airplanes that came along just a few years later.   

    "Mr.  Fitzgerald on line 2...".

      But of course all that means is that the difference in pilot skill level and engine/trim setup knowledge is *a lot* more drastic than most people think, not that a Super Ringmaster is somehow almost as good as a Nobler.    The engine/trim quality is also a far bigger leap, a stock S-1 Ringmaster can either a complete dog (Fox 35/stock controls and rudder setup) or very pleasant to fly (15FP, slow controls, no rudder offset) with absolutely identical design/construction.

    Brett

[john e. holliday]

Dave was not competing when I built my Fox kit Falcon 35.  Did not have a Fox for power. I believe I had an OS in the nose.  In finishing the plane I removed the engine and was slow getting it done.  When I flew it it was stable but turned inside better than outsides.  I think Dick Byron seen my goof up.  I had forgot to put my mounting plates under the engine and didn't notice the down thrust.   Once corrected it flew mucho better but for me was not competively equal to the plane being flown.   It also had some construction details I was not used to.  But as stated it needs a class for it and the Super Ringmaster.

[Paul Smith]

I'm still working on getting "mine" sorted out.
It will never be competitive in any stunt class. 
Several of the so-called "OT legal" designs would still be good for F2B and anything in between.
The plane was very much tail heavy and under powered with the Fox 35 Stunt.  It's much happier with the ST G21/40, but a bit fuel-limited.

[Dan McEntee]

"1952-1960 dead zone."

Seriously? You mean two consecutive classes, "Old Time" and "Classic", have an 8 year gap??

That doesn't seem like it was thought out very well.

In the historic motorcycle competition scene I was a part of for over 10 years, each era is defined to within the year so no such gaps exist.

Andre

   Hello Andre!!

     The cut off for Old Time is December 31st , 1952 and I think the primary reason for that is because that was the last year for that old pattern schedule. Aldrich had devised the newer on that we currently fly and it was instituted in 1953. I believe I have that correct. There are plenty of OTS legal models that no one builds or flies because they seem less "capable" that a Jamison Special or a Humongous. George Aldrich told me one time that he didn't think his Nobler should be considered legal for OTS as presented in M.A.N. because it was ahead of it's time, and it probably was. It's the same for Classic. Lots of designs that are Classic legal, but don't appear to be "winners" to most people. New designs were published each year in just about half of the magazines in print at that time. New designs published in the magazines was a part time job f or Jack Sheeks!!! And Charles Mackey and s few others. You just need to look at the plans listings top see that. As time marched on, new stunt designs started to thin out after the tuned pipe came along, and then, in my opinion, they all tended to look the same in order to accommodate the pipe. As I'm sitting here typing this, i can't think of what the last new stunt design that was published. We have really hit a plateau, and that is due mostly I think, to our shrinking numbers and no new blood coming into the hobby.. This is one reason why I think the N-30 class needs to be eliminated. Most guys are simply interested in the absolute newest, legal 30 year old design so they can fly one model on N-30 and PAMPA classes. The problem with that is, too many clubs are mixing N-30 and Classic as one class now. Having two classes and have them fly in front of the same judges is fine, but now guys are flying SV-11 ARFs against Ares and the like. That's just not right and not fair. People have lost the respect and spirit for the vintage classes, they just want another trophy. They should just call N-30 " PAMPA Combined" and have all the skill classes together because that is essentially what you have. This is also largely due to the lack of participants and shrinking numbers. it's still a mystery to me why the younger generations just don't seem interested in aviation in general much less model airplanes. What would it take to create that spark of interest in them??

  Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee