Beginning stunt plane suggestion

[Steve Agrella]

I have A novell .061 and I have a Cox medalion 049 any suggestions on a good built up wing stunt trainer for either of these engines.

I was leaning more towards ARF's being that these planes might not last too long.

Steve

[Michael Massey]

Hi Steve, welcome to the sport.

I do not really have a suggestion for you as far as your engines go.  I do not know how much, if any previous control line experience you have but as a general rule, very small planes (and engines) are much "quirkier" and harder to fly.  Larger airplanes and larger engines make life a lot easier when getting into the sport. 

I would encourage you to look at airplanes, ARF's if you like, in the .25 to .35 category.  I honestly believe you will be a lot happier.  It would also be very worthwhile to get with some experienced flayers who can help you get "in the air" fairly quickly and help to minimize some of the "learning curve crashes" a lot of us have experienced.

Welcome and good luck.

[Steve Holt]

Brodak has an Almost Ready to Cover Baby Clown for side mounted engines like yours.  It would fly OK with the Medalion and really scream with the .061.  As was mentioned, bigger models like their Super Clown with a .25 would be a bit easier to fly, the Baby Clown with a good engine will do the most if not all of the stunt pattern.
Steve

[Steve Agrella]

Thanks for the replies, here's the deal, I have 4-5 really nice planes, two ringmasters, a P40, a Cardinal etc. I never got past doing loops.

I was thinking that with the 1/2 A  expense of plowing it into the ground would be allot less painful than one of my really nice ships.

I know that 1/2 A's lack line tension and are allot finikier than the larger palnes, I'm sorta figuring in my feeble mind that if I can master the cheap quirky 1/2A then the bigger planes should be a snap ounce I get past the heebie Jeebies of going inverted.

[Roger Vizioli]

Steve,
Brodak also has the Baby Clown in an ARF confirguration. If you order one, order the one for beam mount (ie Norvel or Medallion), not firewall mount engine.
I have flown one with a Norvel .061, they really haul on 46' -50 ' lines. you could initially use the Medallion .049 (which I "think" is a beam mount, I am not familiar with them (too many years have passed since I used one :-(  )  and then go to the Norvel as you gain experience.  
Have fun!
Roger V.

[David M Johnson]

Having gone the same route recently I know what your thinking.  I was in the same boat a year or so ago.  Having said that and given your inventory make one of your ring masters your sacrificial lambs. Take your most ugly Ring and turn it upside down. The reason I say this is that when your inverted it takes your brain time to process "down is up and up is down" When your flying a 1/2a this process has to be done quicker due to the speed of the plane.  With a larger plane you have more time to process your thinking.  I went through a couple of rebuild before I got where I could fly a complete lap inverted.  Just my 2 cents. Also Ringmasters are really easy to fix.
David Johnson

[John Cralley]

Ringmasters are VERY rebuildable!!! 

I have one that has been crashed and rebuilt at least 14 times and still flies (may have gained some weight but that is the American life style)!!!

[John Craig]

Yes, it is a combat plane.  In trainer mode, when it hits the ground it bounces very nicely. Pick it up, clean it off  & fly again.

http://home.earthlink.net/~philcartier/webcat/Descriptions/lilhackkit.html

The Li'l Hacker makes a great combat trainer for little kids and big kids.  The Li'l Hacker flys nicely on a reed valve engine like a Cox Black Widow. For more performance the Cox Killer Bee or Norvel Big Mig .049 or .061 mount easily on the firewall using a nylon mount and a bladder fuel system.  It goes together easily, with few parts to glue. The plug-in wing can be easily replaced when it gets too broken up. The lite ply fuselage has plenty of strength to take the hardest crashes.   The kit includes everything for two planes including plenty of our excellent SLC covering

SPAN : 26-31 inches

AREA : 235 square inches

WEIGHT : 5 ounces

[Joseph Lijoi]

The Norvel will pull a bigger plane that the normal 1/2a. 

The issue is money and/or time.  If you have the dough buy 3 OS 25 la's and 3 Flite Streak ARFs.  I put 1/8 ply doublers in the nose and add a 2 wheel landing gear.  There are other mods, like a better pushrod.  A lot of stuff online about this and an excellent video on you tube of someone flying a very nice pattern with one of these with an fp20.

If you have time the Brett Buck Sig Skray might be the way to go.

The best manuver for learning inverted flight is the S turn.  This was diagrammed in some old model plans and may be on the Brodak site.  Its a half inside loop followed by a half outside loop.  A figure S.  At first do the outside right away. Then stretch out the half inside longer until you complete an inverted lap.  This gives you a feel for reversed controls.

The slower the plane the better your chances.  Probably the best trainer is A 40 oz. Nobler flying at 5.3 second laps.  Not very practical at this point.

One thing that helped me was to stop thinking that I would crash.  I tried to get out of the mindset that a crash was ineveitable.  A very experienced flyer told me this.  Build to fly not to crash.  It almost seems like the plane knows it. 

A lot of good advice from everyone here.  Good luck.   

[Paul Taylor]

Steve,
From one old newbie to a new one... dump the 1/2a stuff!

Build one of your Ringmasters and buy the big bottle of CA and a few cheap rolls of ultrakote. Then just start flying the crap out of the RM until it just can't be rebuilt any more. Then build the other RM and repeat. By the time you get done with the second RM you will be flying a good pattern, clovers included.  LA .25 if you have one. If not a Fox will do. Both engines you can find cheap.

IMHO the 1/2a stuff will not teach you nearly as fast and might be a little frustrating.

[proparc]

Hook up with an experienced guy,(check for gray hair-maybe a pot belly too!!) and build a Magician without flaps.

[larry borden]

Hook up with an experienced guy,(check for gray hair-maybe a pot belly too!!) and build a Magician without flaps.

Hey! I resemble that remark. I have all 3, gray hair, pot belly (prosperity) and a Magician without flaps.

[Tim Wescott]

From one old newbie to a new one... dump the 1/2a stuff!

Keep the 1/2-A stuff for when you're better, on in the mood to play with it.

Build one of your Ringmasters and buy the big bottle of CA and a few cheap rolls of ultrakote. Then just start flying the crap out of the RM until it just can't be rebuilt any more. Then build the other RM and repeat. By the time you get done with the second RM you will be flying a good pattern, clovers included.  LA .25 if you have one. If not a Fox will do. Both engines you can find cheap.

I'd say start flying the crap out of RM #1, and start building RM #2 ASAP.  That way when you crash plane #1 you can fly plane #2 while you're rebuilding.  Then swap and repeat.  There's nothing like having a spare airframe on hand, just waiting for a motor, to speed things along after a crash.

It may even pay to build both airframes together -- wing, wing, fuse, fuse, etc.  It's certainly a quicker way to get two planes, if not a quicker way to get one.  You will crash -- get used to it.

IMHO the 1/2a stuff will not teach you nearly as fast and might be a little frustrating.

I agree.  It's fun fun fun for casual flying, but if you have to depend on it you can get tired of it fast.

[proparc]

Steve,
Head down to Texas and hook up with Larry Borden!!!

[ChrisSarnowski]

Corehouse also has foam wings for Ringmasters, to make it simpler for you to go that way.

It is probably easier for someone to teach you on a larger plane due to the line pull and larger handle. Basically the bigger handle means they can put their hand on yours while flying to guide you through maneuvers. Easier to get a feel for the plane with more pull.

That said, something like the Lil Hacker is good for learning inverted flight since it bounces off grass.

-Chris

[Jim Thomerson]

The Lil Hacker is a very good flying simple airplane.  Probably as good as any 1/A for learning to fly the stunt pattern.  If you can fly over grass not cut too short, it is very sturdy. 

[Jerry Leuty]

The general thought is by experience from 60+ years ago; forget the half A stuff. It will only lead to frustration. So you are afraid of crashing your really good larger airplanes. So what. Everything you presently now have will eventulally hit the trash can. You can count on it. What goes up will come down. Go fly your RMs and take it easy until you get comfortable with going around in circles. Build new planes but do not make master pieces out of them. RMs are ok if that is what you want to fly. But there are a lot of other planes out there that will give you a lot more satisfaction in flying and learning the stunt pattern.

[Balsa Butcher]

If you are comfortable starting and running the 1/2A motors, they are not a bad way to go. My son crashed a few of my larger planes and was about to give up control line. I built a couple of Brodak 1/2 warbirds-the built up wing Wildcat in particular. With a good running black widow he learned inside loops, lazy eights and inverted flight. No ldg gear, hand launch over grass, crash...not a problem. With his confidence back he returned to larger planes and did quite well, becoming WAM junior champion 2 years in a row. Lil' Hacker would be an excellent choice, Brodak 1/2A Flite Streak another possibility.  

[john e. holliday]

I have two Hackers I got off the bay a few years ago.   Came with one Norvel engine.  They were set up with uni-flo tanks.  I put a Tee Dee on the one that was minus an engine.   My brother-in-law made his first flights with them.   And they are still in one peice.  By the way I got them for half of what the kit cost.   Great flying little planes.

[Dennis Moritz]

Slow combat foamies. Excellent way to learn the tricks. Fly them at Ringmaster speeds. They are easier to make straight, easy to repair, tough, quick to assemble or build. No way to tart them up, so crash splat, will not tug at your heartstrings. Boldness. CL Stunt is for the fearless and bold.

[bob werle]

I have to put my  thoughts in on this.  I am back to c/l after tooooo many years.  I went thru a lot of .15 to .35 size planes in the beginning like everyone.  What I have now is an all balsa plank wing 1/2a stunt trainer.  It has been crashed and reoaired many times.  The plans were free from a web site called Hip pocket areonautics.  It is not a built up wing but it looks and flys like a larger model.  It builds quick and rebuilds quicker.  The little picture on this forumn shows me holding my first one.  It would be a fit for the Cox.  The most importent is to make sure the engine runs well.    I have to admit I like the 1/2a size (easier to transport) and  think they are s good starting point with a plane that will not be to quick .  I finished 2nd in beginner stunt with this plabe in my first stunt contest .

[Bill Little]

I have A novell .061 and I have a Cox medalion 049 any suggestions on a good built up wing stunt trainer for either of these engines.

I was leaning more towards ARF's being that these planes might not last too long.

Steve

Hi Steve,

There is a large disparity between the power of those two engines.  Just an FYI if you were not aware.  The Norvel, as long as it is "healthy" will put out much more "power".

I will stray from my usual advice and say go ahead with the 1/2As for now.  A Baby Flite Streak or Baby Clown for Brodak (both are available as ARFs or ARCs IIRC).  However, I cannot sing the praises of the Lil' Hacker for a stunt trainer in the 1/2 A size.  It will take a LOT of punishment!

For learning inverted flight, the oldest, and a very safe, way to learn it is by doing lazy eights.  Do one "normally" then do one where you keep the "inverted portion" a bit longer.  Keep increasing the inverted section until you have done a lap, or more!  If you can already fly a lazy 8, then the mind is expecting to pull out through the application of "down", or "forward stick".  I have seen several people get flying inverted down with in one flight doing it this way.  I learned this way and then went to climbing while inverted and hitting "up" to recover.

Big Bear

[Steven Kientz]

You can get a set of 4 foam cores from the Corehouse for around $40.  Then build your Rm fuselages with a wing slot to fit these cores. I have a couple of Pyschos that have been beat on pretty well, but after repairs they still fly. To fix these foam cores I use a little gorilla glue under the covering and then cover with packing tape. After it sets up go back to flying.

Steve

[PerttiMe]

The plans were free from a web site called Hip pocket areonautics.  It is not a built up wing but it looks and flys like a larger model.  It builds quick and rebuilds quicker.  The little picture on this forumn shows me holding my first one.

White Lightning?

[M Spencer]

a Combat Wing , till the ground stops missbehaven . 

[Steve Helmick]

SIG Skyray 35 with a .25LA, Magnum .25 or .28. Use .012" lines, 58' i2i.  Steve

[Norvaldo]

Hook up with an experienced guy,(check for gray hair-maybe a pot belly too!!) and build a Magician without flaps.

“Experience is the name every one gives to their sum of mistakes."

So: Better to learn flying from someone that already crashed a few dozen on his journey than crashing 1/2  dozen of your own and still not learn to fly.
Then when it comes to the next step of trying to fly better today than last week is the time to select engines and models.

Why not start a post on the forum: 'Anyone know of a C/L club ind the area of xxxxx'
You say: 'I have 4-5 really nice planes, two Ringmasters, a P40, a Cardinal etc. I never got past doing loops.'

If you cannot find someone to teach you, the reply # 5 from David Johnson is i.m.o a very sensible suggestion.

After each crash, post a picture here of the 'sacrificed lamb' before startin the repair.
I can guarantee you that there will be many and good advices on how to fix it.

A crash proof model is not a good way to start. Most likely too heavy and too fast.
Like learning to swim with a lead belt instead of a float ring.

The Cardinal is i assume the Brodak profile Cardinal.
Once you learned the basics, that model ; balanced and straight  with a good running engine can take you from the first 'lazy eight'  and all the way to a full pattern.


Good luck.  
Norvald


Then a story:

I was on the field a few weeks ago. It was a nice evening. Perfect conditions. none to moderate wind.
No dogs and no soccer players.

Here come this fellow in his mid 20's and his  friend with a brand new  R/C Helicopter.
Not of the very expensive type but more than a Brodak Cardinal with engine.

I asked if he had flown R/C before. He answered something like 'No, but the guy in the shop said it was easy and i have a simulator on my computer.'

As i do not master R/C , i could not offer to help.

His first (and probably last)  flight  was like watching a half grown chicken being trown violently up in the air.
It traveled a very interesting pattern  some 40-60  feet, vaving the wings  (or rotors as some call them)  before meeting the planet again.

Using my 'experience', i helped pick up the 20+  pieces.

[Steve Helmick]

Good thought, Norvaldo. Everybody here would be eager to help a rookie progress, tho we might suggest various pathways, based on personal experience.

One problem is that we don't know where Steve Agrella is located. It would be great if everybody would post their city and state, or at least the state. We know Norvaldo is in Norway, and I bet it hasn't caused him any grief at all. I have my city and state listed, and it sure hasn't caused me any problems. It's NOT a good idea to put an email address in a post, because "web crawlers" can get it and spam you silly.  Steve 

[Norvaldo]

Steve H:
As for identifying ourselves:

Well, i have worked in the computer business for 40 years.
Mainly the 'Big Irons' IBM mainframe computers, software support.

I am not a hacker or anything like that. To old for that stuff.  But still:   It might be possible that he who started this post or  a relative (maybe father) likes riding Harley Davidsons in the sunny state of California , close to LAX Airport.

Please enlighten us Mr. Agrella!!

As for the remark from Steve H. : 'We know Norvaldo is in Norway, and I bet it hasn't caused him any grief at all.'
That is a topic to be discussed , but not here maybe. 

Less than 10 active stunt pilots, long winters ,  no Obama or Bush or Oprah Winfrey to turn to in momets of sorrow and despair.

( I think two out of three mentioned abobe are retired, so clear candidates for joining the C/L community)

Apart from that and a few other issues, it is not that bad.

N.

Rereading this, i decide it is bedtime...

[Howard Rush]

Steve, if you do live near LAX, you might mosey over to Whittier Narrows park in So. El Monte.  Guys fly there at least every weekend.  Look up Rich Lopez, who practices flying combat at the south end of the field.  He lives a few blocks from LAX and would be glad to meet you.

[George]

I agree with the group that suggests using a .25 to learn on.

That said, there are a whole lot of us who started on those bouncy little 1/2A planes. We bounced them into the ground until they no longer needed to bounce.

As someone mentioned, after level flight and the inside loop, the next thing should be the figure eight. That will allow you to stand in one place if you get dizzy. The figure eight can then be widened until you can fly inverted. Don't be surprised if you also learn the figure nine in the process.  

Good luck whichever way you go.

George

[Steve Agrella]

I live in Mission Hills California in the San Fernando Valley 30 miles North of LA X, thanks for all of the replies I really appreciate all of the advice.

I purchased the LIL Hackers, I will get my confidence on those before I attemp the Ringmaster, we have a club here local called the circle burners I will ask for some coaching.

Hers' my Grandson with one of the Ringmasters, he would kill me if I crashed it.....lol

[Norvaldo]

Well, if this is the club:

http://flyingsocal.com/2011/07/10/valley-flyers-and-circle-burners-swap-meet-teach-and-fly-2011/

The pictures and video shows it all.
And bring your grandson!!
Looks like they also have trainers available...

Norvald

[Dave Lajb]

I was fortunate to be at the flight field at one of the local clubs events.  One of the older guys had a solid balsa wing trainer with a .35 red head and a Higgly hub.  He helped me get started and I have to tell you that plane took a beating.  It flipped, twisted, nose dived and stayed together.  It had the motor mounted in the front (not a profile) and looked a little like a H.  I wish I could find that plane or the plans.  I could have sworn he said it was a Goldberg.  Anyone know if these are still available?
 

[FLOYD CARTER]

My suggestion: Whatever you decide for a 1/2A plane, don't try cowling in the engine!  Small engines seem to take a lot of fiddling so have it out in the open where you can work on it!

Floyd

[john e. holliday]

The old Guillow's trainers were great for getting started.   I keep telling guys that the take off, level flight and landing are the hardest parts to learn.  I am still trying to learn to land.