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[Motorman]

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[Matt Colan]

How long did it take you to go from a competitive beginner to someone who might win a big contest in expert? How much practice did you do on a weekly basis?

Thanks,
MM

My first beginner contest was May 2007. My first expert contest was August 2010. I fly ~2-3 times a week (x3 flights per day) depending on weather.

[Dan McEntee]

  Depends entirely on the individual. There is a guy here in my area, Mark Hughes, who called me up one day to ask me how to set the needle valve on hi Fox .35 for his Top Flite Tutor, his first large C/L model. Three years later he placed third,  I think it was, at VSC (with a model that made it's maiden flight when we got there,) which I also think fills the bill as a big contest, and against some pretty heavy hitters. For me, I can't remember exactly when I started to place on the podium. I started active competition in 1987 and it took two airplanes to finish my first contest in beginner. I have a first place expert trophy from our Broken Arrow contest in 2002, so it must have been somewhere in between! To tell you the truth, I really wasn't paying much attention, and the time just "flew" by!
   Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[Steve Helmick]

I think it's going to be different for everybody, starting with whether you can  already fly inverted, how is your climate, do you have a reliably available flying site, can you find a good coach, are you coach-able, are you already good with engines, tanks and props, and how much time, desire and $ are you able to devote? Know what I mean?  Steve

[Jerry Eichten]

I have zero chance of winning a big expert contest in this part of the country.  It took me 2 & 1/2 seasons to go from intermediate to low-level expert. 

Back then I had a circle a mile from work and flew a couple times a week. 

[Brett Buck]

How long did it take you to go from a competitive beginner to someone who might win a big contest in expert? How much practice did you do on a weekly basis?

    I flew my first contest in 1981 (Full pattern beginner, in the 380s) and flew my first legitimate 500-point pattern in 1983 (same contest two years later).  That's flying a few times a week. I moved to Expert in about 1989 (after a lull in 1986-87) and was at the top of the local "second rank" in maybe 1992. That second rank puts me at about the level of most local experts in most areas, although I was not in any danger of beating the big guys. In 1993-97 I went to the NATs and qualified in Open, but was not competitive and was in the second 10. I had a few very good days in the mid-late 90's and won Golden State in 96 and a few locals against Ted Fancher in that time frame. David was also restarting in this era and we ended up in near ties over and over again (which still continues at local contests). In 98 I was probably flying well enough to have a chance but the appearance points were a limiting factor. From 1999 on I have been competitive for the flyoff, made it in 2000 with some element of luck and ended up tied for third, missed narrowly in 2001-2003, was on track in 2003, came in a very strong 3rd in 2004, crashed and was 56th in 2005, won in 2006, made the flyoff and fell apart on the second and third flight and came in 5th in 2007, was on cruise control in 2008 and got too relaxed and lost by 1.25 points (second place), flew poorly and didn't make the flyoff in 2009, skipped 2010 for a launch, flew indifferently and came in 3rd in 2011, skipped 2012 for work reasons.

    Several points that were a little off the "normal" track. I flew very intensively from 1979-81 by myself, practically every day. I had no idea where contests were or how to enter them, but that was my plan. I flew my first practice flight in front of other people the weekend before the contest in 1981 (Dan Lutz, Ed Robbert, and Wynn Paul) and  got a lot of stuff to change over the next weekend. I blew away the field in beginner. After that, I knew I had to do something better but was embarrassed and went of an flew by myself for the next year. The next contest was in 1982, where I won Intermediate by a huge margin. Same again in 1983, I blew up the field in Advanced with a 500+ point pattern that would have been competitive in Expert at that particular contest.  In mid-1983 I moved to Northern California and started flying with Ted Fancher and crew that was an eye-opener. I would have imagined that I was almost ready to win in 1983 had I stayed where I was, but I was in no way competitive. As it is I was not really competitive until 1998. People can (and I did) delude themselves about their capabilities unless you go up against the very best competition.

    My early efforts were partly helped and partly hindered by my basic "lone wolf" approach. My airplanes were built better (although not finished better) than my competitors and trimmed much better because I forced myself to fly rule book sized patterns. My engines always ran properly and were set up better than many of my competitors. That alone would have been sufficient to win most of the contests in Beg/Int/ADV. What I didn't have and sometimes wouldn't listen to was feedback on flying. I listened to some extent from 83-93 and got a lot better, but not good enough. I didn't really realize how difficult it was until I went to the NATs, after that, I at least knew what I needed to work on.

    Brett

[john e. holliday]

This is where a good coach come into play.   I myself don't listen enough, just ask Jim Lee.  I have beaten myself in contests that I can't remember how many.   But, my excuse is I don't fly enough.   

[Tim Wescott]

I first flew Beginner in Salem, OR in October 2010 and took home a trophy (3rd out of 3!).  So far this year I've been mostly getting scores in the low 400's, with one flight (at Eugene in the wind) below 400.

Paul Walker is a regular at contests around here, we get a bunch of really good Californians and Canadians for the NW Regionals.  Since the "big contest" competition around here is world class, and since I don't seem to be a natural at this, I don't see ever taking home a 1st-place trophy.

I figure that with hard work and if my joints hold out I may be good enough to peak out in the middle of the pack for Expert at some point, but I couldn't say when that may happen.

I try to fly twice a week, and often only manage once.  The weather is mild here, so I usually do manage at least once, and often twice a week even through the winter, however.

[Randy Cuberly]

By Now you must realize that there is a lot involved in progressing to Expert, let alone being able to win a "Big" contest.
It depends a lot on individual talent and desire, but also on the kind of help available to you.

I have seen several individuals with a lot of talent progress from Beginner to Expert in as little as two years.

The two that I helped had the advantage of well trimmed Hand-Me-Down airplanes and the financial resources to crash an airplane and immediately get another one to fly.  Also they both did not mess with inferior equipment but started with 1st class engines and well built airplanes.

Yes they did learn to build and fly their own airplanes and at least one became a good builder and finisher, but they used purchased equipment to keep flying and practiced a lot.
Living in Arizona or some other climate where it's possible to fly year round is also a big help in progressing quickly.  Both of these folks quit flying before progressing to the top of any heap.  Burnout?  Maybe!

Now to the question of progressing to where it's possible to win a "Big Contest"; that's another matter. 

There are a bunch of guys around with "Super Talent" and the resources to be really serious about flying the "Big Contests" and the simple truth is that most of the "experts" in the world will never beat those guys in an even contest.  I fly with a couple of those kind of guys here in Tucson and while I can on occasion fly a pattern as good as thiers...they do it very consistently and seldom fly less than a stellar performance...even in practice.

The likes of Paul Walker, David Fitzgerald, Brett Buck, Bob Hunt, Bob Whitely, Derek Berry, Doug Moon, Orestes Hernandez, Bill Rich, Bill Werwedge, Ted Fancher, etc., will seldom, if ever, be outflown by one of us mere mortals.  So...if you're talking about progressing to that level all I can say is best of luck, and fly, fly, fly, and get a really good coach that you can trust explicitly.

Me I gave up any hope of being in that level and I've been a mid pack Expert for about 40 years, who has won a few local Expert level contests in the distant past, but do not have the desire to beat my head against the brick wall of talent anymore. 

It's still fun to fly with the likes of those folks and measure small improvements in myself without the inate ability to ever beat them. 

The simple reality is that most of us will never get to the top of the expert heap...guess that's why it's desirable to try! 

Randy Cuberly 

[Brett Buck]

The likes of Paul Walker, David Fitzgerald, Brett Buck, Bob Hunt, Bob Whitely, Derek Berry, Doug Moon, Orestes Hernandez, Bill Rich, Bill Werwedge, Ted Fancher, etc., will seldom, if ever, be outflown by one of us mere mortals. 

   All of the aforementioned are also  "mere mortals" with the same basic skill set as anyone else. If I can manage it, just about anyone without what was traditionally known as a handicap should be able to, as well. In some ways it's much easier now than it used to be- no particular special skills are required to get adequate engine/motor runs, the airplanes as a system are VASTLY better than they were 25 years ago, and just about everything there is to know about any topic can be found in a few minutes of research.

   The latter has led to a very interesting psychological phenomenon. Anything that anyone wants to know is documented in almost absurd detail by numerous world-class competitors and completely laid out. There is no special magic that anyone is keeping to themselves, anyone can find out anything about any airplane, building technique, finishing, or flying in a few minutes. But many times the people who can benefit most from it (ADV and EXP fliers that haven't gotten to the NATs qualifier level) will argue, disagree, dismiss the advice ("oh, sure, but Paul Walker could beat us all with a Ringmaster so winning 10 NATs doesn't mean anything", etc. ), or otherwise kick and scream to avoid following it, or go off and do the exact opposite just to prove they aren't following the herd or that they know better. And persist in it despite the clear results of the contests. Then, explain it away by saying that some other factor (judges being biased, etc).

   I know some people who are inclined to keep some of the tricks to themselves (certainly not me!) but the beauty of the psychology is that you can tell people exactly what to do, why to do it, and why it's important, and almost be assured that they will not do it or do the opposite. The best protection for good idea is to explain it in detail and trigger people to do the opposite. I have even seen some people exploit that to play mind games on a few likely candidates. It's like being a contrarian is more important than winning stunt contests. Or that not following the obvious competitive solutions somehow provides a ready-made excuse.

  In a way it's also kind of the same with beginners. They don't assume they know better, exactly, but they don't want anything that might be "complicated" - and then set themselves up with some built-in limitations that make their task much more difficult and complicated than it would be otherwise. Trying to plug along with "simple" 50/60/70's 4-2 break engines, or modern engines butchered to run that way and old vintage trainers is about the most difficult way to go their could be. An Impact and a 40VF is about the simplest d*mn thing I can imagine once you get it trimmed and is a far better trainer than any of the so-called "trainers". You put in the gas and fly it, you don't endless futz with head gaskets, venturis, muffler hole screw inserts, 5 different props, etc, required to get decent performance from a 4-2 break engine, or fiddling with the trim endlessly to optimize a Twister just to get through patterns in all conditions. I learned *some* things this way when there was no choice, but many of them were bad habits and negative training that I later had to "unlearn".

    I am not criticizing anyone or anything, but I see so many people struggle with things that are already long-solved problems just because they don't think they are in the right "class" to take advantage of it, or they actively want to follow an intentionally different path. We are ALL the same, there is no relevant distinction between Paul/David/Billy and the rankest beginner in terms of ultimate capability. All anyone has to do is work hard and smart, and take advantage of the knowledge available.

   Brett

[Howard Rush]

Brett speaks wisdom, as usual.  Stunt fliers tend to be pathologically original.  I can attest that you can take an ordinary, greasy combat flier, have him build a VF 40-powered Impact following instructions, give him some supervised practice, and he can be placing near the top of the West Coast Jr. Varsity in a couple of years. 

[Sean McEntee]

By Now you must realize that there is a lot involved in progressing to Expert, let alone being able to win a "Big" contest.
It depends a lot on individual talent and desire, but also on the kind of help available to you.

I have seen several individuals with a lot of talent progress from Beginner to Expert in as little as two years.

The two that I helped had the advantage of well trimmed Hand-Me-Down airplanes and the financial resources to crash an airplane and immediately get another one to fly.  Also they both did not mess with inferior equipment but started with 1st class engines and well built airplanes.

Yes they did learn to build and fly their own airplanes and at least one became a good builder and finisher, but they used purchased equipment to keep flying and practiced a lot.
Living in Arizona or some other climate where it's possible to fly year round is also a big help in progressing quickly.  Both of these folks quit flying before progressing to the top of any heap.  Burnout?  Maybe!

Now to the question of progressing to where it's possible to win a "Big Contest"; that's another matter. 

There are a bunch of guys around with "Super Talent" and the resources to be really serious about flying the "Big Contests" and the simple truth is that most of the "experts" in the world will never beat those guys in an even contest.  I fly with a couple of those kind of guys here in Tucson and while I can on occasion fly a pattern as good as thiers...they do it very consistently and seldom fly less than a stellar performance...even in practice.

The likes of Paul Walker, David Fitzgerald, Brett Buck, Bob Hunt, Bob Whitely, Derek Berry, Doug Moon, Orestes Hernandez, Bill Rich, Bill Werwedge, Ted Fancher, etc., will seldom, if ever, be outflown by one of us mere mortals.  So...if you're talking about progressing to that level all I can say is best of luck, and fly, fly, fly, and get a really good coach that you can trust explicitly.

Me I gave up any hope of being in that level and I've been a mid pack Expert for about 40 years, who has won a few local Expert level contests in the distant past, but do not have the desire to beat my head against the brick wall of talent anymore. 

It's still fun to fly with the likes of those folks and measure small improvements in myself without the inate ability to ever beat them. 

The simple reality is that most of us will never get to the top of the expert heap...guess that's why it's desirable to try! 

Randy Cuberly 

     I understand what Randy is trying to say, but might just need re-wording
Beginner, intermediate, and Advanced pretty much pit flyers of near equal skill level against each other, but expert does not.  Expert is the top of the ladder…nowhere else to go.  To make that jump from advanced to Expert is a big commitment.  The art of building, finishing and flying to a higher degree starts to become a necessity in order to compete, as well as regular practice.
I myself have experienced this.  I started flying beginner in 1996 at age 12 and after some “business trips” to foreign lands, finally made the bump up to expert in 2007.  I really didn’t want to do it for the reasons mentioned above.  I was living in the barracks at the time so I really had no place dedicated to building.  My practice schedule looked like Fat Albert’s workout schedule….VERY infrequent.  I hung on for as long as I could in advanced, until every single contest I entered ended with me 30+ points ahead of second.  At that point, I didn’t want to wear out my welcome so I made the move.  Now im competing against a bunch of really good flyers, not just Doug and Steve Moon, and my schedule really prohibits my participation at that level. 
Nowadays, I stick pretty close to home—not traveling to contests further than Dallas.  The contests I do go to I limit myself to OT and classic: simple, fun events.  And the flying is only my secondary purpose for going.  I really like the people and the social aspect.
So when you get to that point to where you want to jump into the big leagues, be ready to go all the way.

[Bill Little]

I have not made it to the Expert rank in competition.  When I was able to practice on a very regular schedule, I was on the move to make the jump, but work commitments, and family issues, stopped me in my tracks.  Since then I have not been able to participate in any manner close to making the move.

I believe the move up the ladder really is able if you can practice on a regular basis, you have a good coach that knows what things are supposed to look like and you actually pay attention, and you are dedicated to the event/sport.  It does take a fair amount of dedication to be able to reach Expert, a much greater dedication to reach the top of Expert, they are really in a whole other class!

BIG Bear
RNMM/AMM

[Howard Rush]

It does take a fair amount of dedication to be able to reach Expert.

No it doesn't.  It takes buying an AMA card and paying your entry fee.  Skill classes work, but I don't believe in them.  Fortunately, they don't apply to you if you don't want them to.  Just start out in Expert as soon as you can do the whole pattern.  You get the same judges as the good fliers, so you see exactly how you stack up.  If you ever win a prize, it will mean something.

[Bill Little]

No it doesn't.  It takes buying an AMA card and paying your entry fee.  Skill classes work, but I don't believe in them.  Fortunately, they don't apply to you if you don't want them to.  Just start out in Expert as soon as you can do the whole pattern.  You get the same judges as the good fliers, so you see exactly how you stack up.  If you ever win a prize, it will mean something.

Ok, Howard, I understand facing better competition usually makes us better, it is often the best thing to do in "most" endeavors.  However, it has to be done only if you can stand being embarrassed.  I do realize that my flights in Expert would mean an extra 20 minutes in the time taken to run that class. 

You do have a point, Howard, but in this case I am not sold on your idea.

Bill

[Dave_Trible]

Like many here I came up in the sport long before the skill classes.  There were only the age classes and from the first time you plunked an airplane down in the contest circle you flew against the top gurus.  Sure it was a while to be in trophies but here the learning was best and the challenge always there.  Maybe the skill classes are popular but I can see where one can entrench themselves and not propel forward as quickly.  I'd always opt to fly with those a little ahead for motivation,  and shoot for your name on that Walker Cup!

Dave

Bill , read your post.  Embarrassed?- not one of us would think anything of it,  we've all been there and just admire the effort.

[Randy Cuberly]

   All of the aforementioned are also  "mere mortals" with the same basic skill set as anyone else. If I can manage it, just about anyone without what was traditionally known as a handicap should be able to, as well. In some ways it's much easier now than it used to be- no particular special skills are required to get adequate engine/motor runs, the airplanes as a system are VASTLY better than they were 25 years ago, and just about everything there is to know about any topic can be found in a few minutes of research.

   The latter has led to a very interesting psychological phenomenon. Anything that anyone wants to know is documented in almost absurd detail by numerous world-class competitors and completely laid out. There is no special magic that anyone is keeping to themselves, anyone can find out anything about any airplane, building technique, finishing, or flying in a few minutes. But many times the people who can benefit most from it (ADV and EXP fliers that haven't gotten to the NATs qualifier level) will argue, disagree, dismiss the advice ("oh, sure, but Paul Walker could beat us all with a Ringmaster so winning 10 NATs doesn't mean anything", etc. ), or otherwise kick and scream to avoid following it, or go off and do the exact opposite just to prove they aren't following the herd or that they know better. And persist in it despite the clear results of the contests. Then, explain it away by saying that some other factor (judges being biased, etc).

   I know some people who are inclined to keep some of the tricks to themselves (certainly not me!) but the beauty of the psychology is that you can tell people exactly what to do, why to do it, and why it's important, and almost be assured that they will not do it or do the opposite. The best protection for good idea is to explain it in detail and trigger people to do the opposite. I have even seen some people exploit that to play mind games on a few likely candidates. It's like being a contrarian is more important than winning stunt contests. Or that not following the obvious competitive solutions somehow provides a ready-made excuse.

  In a way it's also kind of the same with beginners. They don't assume they know better, exactly, but they don't want anything that might be "complicated" - and then set themselves up with some built-in limitations that make their task much more difficult and complicated than it would be otherwise. Trying to plug along with "simple" 50/60/70's 4-2 break engines, or modern engines butchered to run that way and old vintage trainers is about the most difficult way to go their could be. An Impact and a 40VF is about the simplest d*mn thing I can imagine once you get it trimmed and is a far better trainer than any of the so-called "trainers". You put in the gas and fly it, you don't endless futz with head gaskets, venturis, muffler hole screw inserts, 5 different props, etc, required to get decent performance from a 4-2 break engine, or fiddling with the trim endlessly to optimize a Twister just to get through patterns in all conditions. I learned *some* things this way when there was no choice, but many of them were bad habits and negative training that I later had to "unlearn".

    I am not criticizing anyone or anything, but I see so many people struggle with things that are already long-solved problems just because they don't think they are in the right "class" to take advantage of it, or they actively want to follow an intentionally different path. We are ALL the same, there is no relevant distinction between Paul/David/Billy and the rankest beginner in terms of ultimate capability. All anyone has to do is work hard and smart, and take advantage of the knowledge available.

   Brett

Brett,
What you say discounts natural physical and mental talent and ability to coordinate physical attributes into coordinated action.
If what you say is true then anyone could be an NFL Quarterback if he just trys hard enough...Baloney!  Or a Major league pitcher if he really wants to and just learns how to do it...nonsense!  People have certain physical and mental traits...strengths and weaknesses that define limits in their ability to perform certain things...for instance  I can sing a high C...can you?  Probably not!  I have certain genetic traits that define the size and shape of my face and vocal chords that allowed the development of that ability.  Some folks have genetic traits that allow the development of quicker reflexes and finer muscle coordination than others. 
Still others have traits that make it easier to develop great strength.
Some atheletic ability definitely plays a part in Stunt flying.  No not great strength...but physical and mental coordination is definitely a requirement...We are not all created equal in those inate skills and to think that we are is simply wrong.
Certainly most folks can learn to fly reasonably well...but when one reaches the limit of his physical and mental ability to react and coordinate motions progress is going to become very slow if not nonexistent.
I played High school football with a fellow who became a NFL Hall of Fame Quarterback...no amount of desire or practice or learning could have ever made the rest of us on that team his equal...That is what we refer to as talent!!!

Randy Cuberly

[Brett Buck]

Brett,
What you say discounts natural physical and mental talent and ability to coordinate physical attributes into coordinated action.
If what you say is true then anyone could be an NFL Quarterback if he just trys hard enough...Baloney!  Or a Major league pitcher if he really wants to and just learns how to do it...nonsense!  People have certain physical and mental traits...strengths and weaknesses that define limits in their ability to perform certain things...for instance  I can sing a high C...can you?  Probably not!  I have certain genetic traits that define the size and shape of my face and vocal chords that allowed the development of that ability.  Some folks have genetic traits that allow the development of quicker reflexes and finer muscle coordination than others. 

   I can do it, and no one would confuse me with Joe Montana.

    Brett

[Randy Cuberly]

   I can do it, and no one would confuse me with Joe Montana.

    Brett

Hmmmmm...I'm not so sure.  I hear that you have a pretty mean Fox Hurl!!!

Randy Cuberly