beginner time limit

[bob whitney]

  what is the time limit for beginner stunt

[mike londke]

6 minutes.

[Russell Shaffer]

But it is nice to give them a break if possible.  Like help getting started.

[Jim Carter]

    It don't take 'dat long 'fer me ta' hit  'da ground!!   

[Bill Johnson]

  It don't take 'dat long 'fer me ta' hit  'da ground!!   

Wow! I was thinking the same thing. Now I don't even bother filling the tank. Half a tank is all I need and, hopefully, I won't end up throwing so much away. When I drain the tank. To attempt to repair the damage. From my early flight termination. 

[Dan McEntee]

     Is it really 6 minutes? I thought it was still the regulation 8 minutes. Been a long time since I flew beginner. I was coached and I also coach others to keep the time short just to keep things moving. Practice and figure in 10 or 12 laps after the last maneuver. I also encourage beginners to work on being ready when called to fly. Learn the difference between the WORK SHOP  and the FLYING FIELD!
   Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[Mark Scarborough]

pretty sure its 8 minutes

[Don Main]

I know at the Nats it is 6 minutes, I went over both flights a year ago.

[mike londke]

pretty sure its 8 minutes

  There are only 8 maneuvers. It only takes around 3 1/2 to get them all done. 6 minutes is what Alan Brickhaus gave us at Paducah.  Huntersville used 6 min as well.

[Norm Faith Jr.]

When I run a contest, a beginner will be treated the same way as the other three tiers. A beginner is just that...a beginner! They are there to learn, there to get experience. As beginners they have to ready their equipment within the allotted time frame, signaling the judges, starting the engine. I competed as a beginner under the 8 minute time limit and was glad I had the 8 minutes. I can't remember a contest I ever flew in that even mentioned a 6 minute time limit. Until I see something "written in stone," my contest will be 8 minutes for all contestants.
Norm 

[Steve Helmick]

It's always been 8 minutes around here. I still over-ran, but I eventually got it figured out! None of this stuff is easy, and if it was easy, would we still do it? I doubt it very much.  Steve

[john e. holliday]

The time limit is usually stated on the NATS entry form or at the NATS.   

[Brett Buck]

The time limit is usually stated on the NATS entry form or at the NATS.   

   The time limit is *8* minutes. Deviations from this must be published in the contest announcement.

     Brett

[bob whitney]

 with out our beginners we have nothing .here in FLA we give them as much help as possible it is great watching more experienced flyers jumping in when a beginner or lesser knowledgeable flyer needs help

[Brett Buck]

with out our beginners we have nothing .here in FLA we give them as much help as possible it is great watching more experienced flyers jumping in when a beginner or lesser knowledgeable flyer needs help

  Yes, that's why no one has changed the 8-minute limit. If nothing else, if you cut it too close (say, 5 minutes, which is PLENTY of time to complete the pattern) you end up with people taking a bunch of attempts, and lengthens the round rather than speeding it up.

     Everyone tries to help beginners, almost to a fault at times. So many people descend on them that sometimes it becomes overbearing.

     Brett

[mike londke]

I have only flown Beginner at 2 different locations and they both used 6 minutes that is the reason for my answer. Perhaps a CD can chime in as to why it may differ at varying contests.

[Steve Helmick]

   The time limit is *8* minutes. Deviations from this must be published in the contest announcement.

     Brett

Brett stated the facts, and nothing but the facts. It is the contest organizer's option, but is also required to be publicized in the pre-contest announcements...45 days prior, I believe. Also like Brett posted, it seems silly to reduce the 8 minutes to 6 minutes, for what is usually a very modest number of Beginners. We need to give them all the encouragement we can, so they'll come back for the next contest and then, hopefully progress up through the skill classes.  Steve   

[Jim Mynes]

We need to give them all the encouragement we can, so they'll come back for the next contest and then, hopefully progress up through the skill classes.

Carter, make a note of that last phrase.

[Will Davis]

I have only flown Beginner at 2 different locations and they both used 6 minutes that is the reason for my answer. Perhaps a CD can chime in as to why it may differ at varying contests.

Mike,

The official ama rule book has a 8 minute time limit for.  all  ama sanctioned stunt events. . This is what is normally used at local contest unless changed in the flyer for the event.

 Allen Brickhaus implemented a 6 minute time limit at his  local contest,  beginner  event at the ama nationals and at brodak's beginner events.  He did this as a measure to speed things up and was advertised in the flyer as announced at pilots meetings.

At Brodak's  , Mark Weiss and myself are the contest directors,  we decided to go back to 8 minutes  total run time to be consistent  with ama rules. We removed the 6 minute language  from the flyer.

At Huntersville contest , I am the event director of stunt , we also have the 8 minute  total run time per ama rules. for the same reasons as brodak's , we encourage the flyer to  monitor his engine run time as much as possable to help things  keep rolling on contest day.

So in short, unless the contest flyer advertises a deviation from rule book , the time is 8 minutes

[mike londke]

I stand corrected.

[Steve Helmick]

At one contest this summer, I saw multiple cases where Beginner, Intermediate or Advanced entrants clearly had no clue about how to get on the circle, ready to fly, when it was their turn. Most of these guys were old enough to know better, and had entered contests before. There's supposed to be a 5 minute limit to get on the circle and signal for your start. That is where a lot of time can be saved...or wasted.

In this case, time was wasted...a lot of it. And since it turned out that all events of a two day contest had to be flown on the Sunday, because it blew like a banshee all day Saturday. Steve

[Russell Shaffer]

Gee, Steve, you might actually have a point there.  5 minutes should be long enough to hook up your lines, fuel, and carry the plane to the circle and then go pee.  Even I am faster than that. How about at the pilot's meeting it is mentioned that a person should be ready to grab the plane and start towards the circle when the previous flyer lands?  Don't have to be rude about it, just a gentle reminder that a flyer should ask for someone to help him  out and be ready.  Most places I have flown, the previous flyer is carrying off while the next guy is going onto the circle.  The biggest delay is sweeping the crash pieces off the pad.

[Steve Helmick]

Russell, believe it or not, the subject contest wasn't the Fall Fallies. Sweeping and scrapping is usually a rare and special occasion that deserves suitable reverence and sensitivity, maybe even a special (participation) trophy.  Steve

PS: Are you coming to the NW Skyraider's Banquet this year? Looks like Jan 14 is it, same place. 

[Will Davis]

I have only flown Beginner at 2 different locations and they both used 6 minutes that is the reason for my answer. Perhaps a CD can chime in as to why it may differ at varying contests.

These are good questions and what is great about forums . As a question  about model airplanes and get a answer.

[peabody]

I am of the belief that Beginners have enough to worry about if, in fact, they are really new to contests....
That said, I usually start a watch when they signal, but only report the time.....I don't deduct points....
Most respond by figuring how to bring their time into the rule book allotted.

Have fun!

[Mark Scarborough]

Russell, believe it or not, the subject contest wasn't the Fall Fallies. Sweeping and scrapping is usually a rare and special occasion that deserves suitable reverence and sensitivity, maybe even a special (participation) trophy.  Steve

PS: Are you coming to the NW Skyraider's Banquet this year? Looks like Jan 14 is it, same place. 

OR you learn to crash without leaving balsa shards all over the circle,, witness my crash,, there was only a few pieces to be cleaned up,,
oh wait, you were talking about beginner not expert,, never mind

[John Rist]

I am thinking about trying stunt next summer at the beginners level.  Ain't electric wonderful!!!    5 minute runs with a 1 minute start every time.

[Bill Johnson]

I am thinking about trying stunt next summer at the beginners level.  Ain't electric wonderful!!!    5 minute runs with a 1 minute start every time.

OK, John. Enough bragging! Since the beginners pattern cane be flown in 4 minutes or less, I guess I can either adjust my fuel load or put smaller tanks in.

[Steve Helmick]

I am thinking about trying stunt next summer at the beginners level.  Ain't electric wonderful!!!    5 minute runs with a 1 minute start every time.

Unless it shuts down early because you didn't load a charged battery, or it's too cold and the aero drag is too high and battery capacity isn't up for the Fully Monty, or the motor implodes or the prop collet falls off or the motor flies out the front of the model before (or after) launch, or a wire breaks, or the gizmos let the smoke out, or the battery flies out, etc. I've seen a lot of electron powered flights/attempts with malfunctions. The failure modes are just different than IC.  Steve

[Dennis Moritz]

6 minutes is long enough. Part of stuff to learn. Same as the maneuvers. Many planes I've observed in beginner are done in a bit more than half the time. I used the six minute rule at our home contest and at Brodak. My mistake. I never thought to check it out. As someone pointed out we used 6 when Alan was CD. Folks have run longer than 6. They were not disqualified. Didn't loose pattern points. But were informed of the overage.


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[Mark Scarborough]

6 minutes is long enough. Part of stuff to learn. Same as the maneuvers. Many planes I've observed in beginner are done in a bit more than half the time. I used the six minute rule at our home contest and at Brodak. My mistake. I never thought to check it out. As someone pointed out we used 6 when Alan was CD. Folks have run longer than 6. They were not disqualified. Didn't loose pattern points. But were informed of the overage.


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Pattern points in beginner? ,guess I have been out of beginer to long, I dont remember pattern points in beginer....

8 minutes allows you to enforce rules and get them to start thinking about it without putting them under pressure,,

[Dan McEntee]

6 minutes is long enough. Part of stuff to learn. Same as the maneuvers. Many planes I've observed in beginner are done in a bit more than half the time. I used the six minute rule at our home contest and at Brodak. My mistake. I never thought to check it out. As someone pointed out we used 6 when Alan was CD. Folks have run longer than 6. They were not disqualified. Didn't loose pattern points. But were informed of the overage.


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    Well not enforcing time limits and rules is one thing I don't agree with. Everything in life has rules, and the sooner you learn what they are and how to work within them, the better off you are. Might as well start it at the very beginning! Help the new guys all all you can, and I do at every opportunity. But when the official flights start, they are and should be on their own.
   Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[Dan Berry]

I spoke with a fellow who judges last weekend.
He told me he wouldn't call someone on 8 minutes 3 seconds.
We weren't talking about beginner patterns.

[Mark Scarborough]

I have seen experts go 802 and loose pattern points and landing points,, its the rules,, we all play by them
Hence my support of enforcing the rules in beginner as they are, eight minutes,,

[Trostle]

(Clip)

 There's supposed to be a 5 minute limit to get on the circle and signal for your start. That is where a lot of time can be saved...or wasted.

(Clip)

Just for the record ---  from the rulebook:  "From the time they are called to the circle, contestants will have a maximum of five (5) minutes to give the hand signal to begin starting their engines(s).  Once the starting hand signal has been given, contestants will be allowed a maximum of three (3) minutes to become airborne. ... Failure [to meet these time limits] shall be charged with an attempt".

Now, it becomes a question about what constitutes "the time they are called to the circle"?  At well run contests, it is sometimes announced in the pilots' meeting that the 5 minute time period starts the instant the previous pilot has completely vacated the circle including pilot, airplane, lines and equipment.  Basically, the only time that I have witnessed that this is a problem at any contest is when the less experienced pilots do not understand it is their responsibility to get on the circle as soon as possible as a courtesy to the other contestants and officials to save time and to keep the contest moving.

Keith

[Trostle]

Pattern points in beginner? ,guess I have been out of beginer to long, I dont remember pattern points in beginer....

(Clip)

I will have to go back to when the Skill classes were brought into our rulebook, but I think Pattern Points have always been a part of the Beginner Class.

Keith

[Russell Shaffer]

Time limits are good, but you have to take into consideration the whole beginner thing.  Does this person belong to a club and have some coaching and advice or is he just walking in off the street?  My very first contest was a revelation.  I showed up, took my plane to the set up area, did my lines and stuff and stood around in a daze.  I did fuel up and was waiting to see what was happening.  It was announced that I was first up and I must have had the deer in the headlights look, because David Fitzgerald asked if I needed a launch.  I had no idea who he was, but he seemed like a nice guy and I said yes.  Anyhow, I crashed and David's kids both beat me.  But, I did learn how a contest runs and it was a great learning experience for me but time limits were the last of my worries.  So, my recommendation, for what it's worth, is to run the beginners off to the side by themselves so they can learn how to do it and not delay the big guys. If I had been first up on the main circle with the other classes looking at their watches wondering when I would get out of the way and let the real flyers get going, I probably would have just packed up and gone home, never to be seen again. There are people who don't belong to clubs because they are in the boonies.  Give the beginners help, not rules.  
 

[Norm Faith Jr.]

I just pulled one of my Beginner score sheets from about 15 years ago. Points were awarded for 'flight pattern" 0 or 25.  
Norm

[Brett Buck]

Basically, the only time that I have witnessed that this is a problem at any contest is when the less experienced pilots do not understand it is their responsibility to get on the circle as soon as possible as a courtesy to the other contestants and officials to save time and to keep the contest moving.

   And even then, this is *very rarely* enforced and virtually never with Beginner and Intermediate.

   The only of these limits that would ever come into play in Beginner stunt at a local contest is the 8 minutes. For that, you really do have to enforce it to the letter because letting someone get by with an overrun isn't fair to the rest of the people who made it. The watch is always started a few seconds late so there really shouldn't be any tolerance on the end.

      Brett

[Steve Helmick]

The only way for everyone to get the same "shake" is to enforce the rules 100%. And yes, Beginners get Pattern Points if they deserve them. A Beginner that gets PP's did a pretty good flight!  Steve

[Will Davis]

   And even then, this is *very rarely* enforced and virtually never with Beginner and Intermediate.

   The only of these limits that would ever come into play in Beginner stunt at a local contest is the 8 minutes. For that, you really do have to enforce it to the letter because letting someone get by with an overrun isn't fair to the rest of the people who made it. The watch is always started a few seconds late so there really shouldn't be any tolerance on the end.

      Brett

This is a screen shot of a flight from the huntersville contest, I time with a iPhone , we knew  he was close so on the rollout , I had the other judge call when model stopped rolling.

A good flyer and good friend , but he would have received 0 pattern and 0 for landing for anything over 8:00 minutes..

Too tough I guess, but a contest is a contest, rules are rules,

[Dan McEntee]

   And even then, this is *very rarely* enforced and virtually never with Beginner and Intermediate.

   The only of these limits that would ever come into play in Beginner stunt at a local contest is the 8 minutes. For that, you really do have to enforce it to the letter because letting someone get by with an overrun isn't fair to the rest of the people who made it. The watch is always started a few seconds late so there really shouldn't be any tolerance on the end.

      Brett

   
 
         And part of the time limit is when the time actually starts! I do believe it is NOT started with the signal, but when the contestant starts to flip the prop or flips the switch. The hand signal is just a courtesy to make sure the judges are ready and watching.
      When it comes to making "allowances" for rules infractions for beginners, one thing that you have to remember is that all of us flying in the expert started out in the beginner class! I don't remember anyone making allowances back then for beginners. It took me about 17 years of hard work and practice to go from beginner to expert, and countless numbers of airplanes, but I have seen some who have done it in a few years. Either way it was a level of competency and skill that was earned. I have been bitten in the butt by a few seconds over run on a flight, and have had to judge friends and hand out the penalties for infractions also. It's how the game is played. Remember the one minute starting bonus? I won and lost contests on that old rule but it was eliminated when carbon fiber props came along. I think it should still be part of scoring but electric starters could be allowed for safety.
    Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee

[John Rist]

Unless it shuts down early because you didn't load a charged battery, or it's too cold and the aero drag is too high and battery capacity isn't up for the Fully Monty, or the motor implodes or the prop collet falls off or the motor flies out the front of the model before (or after) launch, or a wire breaks, or the gizmos let the smoke out, or the battery flies out, etc. I've seen a lot of electron powered flights/attempts with malfunctions. The failure modes are just different than IC.  Steve

I also have seen lots of failures in electric flight however over runs are a rare beast.  Also rich or lean runs are rare.  However smoke and running out of juice is a real threat.  Electric is not magic - it just has a different set of problems.  So far with my electronic background I have had better luck with the problems associated with electric than I have had with wet fuel.   

[Brett Buck]

 
 
         And part of the time limit is when the time actually starts! I do believe it is NOT started with the signal, but when the contestant starts to flip the prop or flips the switch. The hand signal is just a courtesy to make sure the judges are ready and watching.

    The hand signal is certainly required:

8. Duration of Flights.
Eight ( minutes total elapsed time is allowed from the time the contestant gives a hand signal prior to starting his engine (this should be done with a prearranged plan, and upon signal to or from judges) to start, take off, complete the flight pattern and land. Timing ends at either 8 minutes, when the model stops moving after successful landing, or when the model crashes. No maneuver, including the landing, will be scored after the eight ( minutes allowed have elapsed. No restriction is placed on maneuvers a contestant may wish to practice between completion of the pattern and landing; however, a contestant may be disqualified, or points may be deducted from his total score, if he indulges in any manner of unsafe flying during this free period.

    (emphasis added)

     In FAI, it is different. We had a very long discussion at one of the team trials, where we determined that it was not required to give a hand signal. That was and is still true. The timing starts when the engine starts. HOWEVER, at the time, it was necessary to start your engine within 1 minute of the hand signal to get your 10 starting points, so, effectively, you still had to do it or forfeit the 10 points.

   Later, the 10 starting points were removed. Now it is absolutely not necessary to do a hand signal, a point that is pretty important if you are using an engine instead of electric.

       Brett

[Dan McEntee]

      Brett;
   IS that a recent rule book change?  I remember a group of us looking it up at the field some time ago, and finding the wordage about flipping the prop and for when times stops when the model comes to a complete stop. A flight also comes to a stop if the model touches ground or sheds parts in flight, correct? We have had to use the shed parts rule several times here. Once where a D speed model shed it's music wire skid from the model pan and hit a spectator. I was the spectator!
   Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee

[Brett Buck]

     Brett;
   IS that a recent rule book change?  I remember a group of us looking it up at the field some time ago, and finding the wordage about flipping the prop and for when times stops when the model comes to a complete stop. A flight also comes to a stop if the model touches ground or sheds parts in flight, correct?

    It was put in during the 2015/16 cycle. This thread discusses it:

http://stunthanger.com/smf/rules-discussions/rule-change-(1-of-several-)-define-end-of-landing-and-end-of-flight-timing/

    But note that it required a hand signal even before that. All this changed was the definition of the end of the flight = wheels stop rolling.

      Dropping parts or touching the ground doesn't stop the flight timing. The former now gets you a zero for the whole flight, not just no more scores afterwards. Merely touching the ground is a gray area (the definition of "crash") but I have seen many people whack the fin on the ground, including myself, and still get a score.

     Brett

[Dennis Moritz]

Good points about enforcing time limit. I can't remember it being an issue tho. Winners and those who place high were clearly the most proficient. Never had a protest or a discouraging word. Most difficult questions came from folks asking to critique their flight after a full day of judging. Hard to remember much after finishing the rounds in the hot sun.

[Jim Carter]

Carter, make a note of that last phrase.

    Hey Jim!!  Yeah, I read it .... I understand it .... I will comply .... as soon as I'm as good as you!!    Remember, my consolation/sympathy prize was a tube of superglue which, once all the pieces were picked up off the "Field of Glory" (or should that read "gory"), contest management realized I was going to need!!

[Steve Helmick]

Keep trimming that plane (or its replacement!). Get an Expert flier to fly it and watch it and make suggestions. The better the plane flies, the easier it is to do the tricks. To some extent, just making the plane quieter helps...don't read that as changing to electrons. I don't think electrons are good if you are still crashing due to PE.  Steve

[Pat Chewning]

There is a good reason to keep the time limit at 8 minutes for the BEGINNER, rather than altering it to 6 minutes:   It allows the beginner to set up an engine/tank/fuel/needle/stopwatch that will also work in the INTERMEDIATE class.   It allows the beginner to add laps between maneuvers, to calm the nerves and get prepared for the next maneuver.   It also allows the beginner to add new stunts during practice without changing the aircraft set-up (in preparation for moving to INTERMEDIATE).