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General control line discussion => Open Forum => Topic started by: Bill Heher on October 24, 2009, 12:47:09 AM
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I have been striving to complete a recognizable Beginner Pattern and am / was making progress - until the "Boss" decided I was needed in ABQ New Mexico more then Portland or Phoenix where I have planes stashed... sigh.
The description for the Outside loops gives 2 options for entry- Upright and inverted.
Upright -climb up and enter from a high altitude, do the loops and finish at the top and descend to level flight
Inverted- enter from level inverted flight and do the loops, finish at the top and descend to level flight. I can do this fairly well, but it just doesn't seem to have the same impression / impact as the inverted entry does.
Anyway- here is my question. What is the proper way to set up for inverted entry? And does it really matter if you are only being judged on the loops themselves?
Is it OK to fly past the entry point about 1/3 lap- do 1/2 of a "Lazy 8" and descnd to level inverted for the entry?
or are you supposed to do 1/2 of a reverse wingover and enter the outside loops once you pull out inverted and are flying level then doo the outside loops?
I know that doing the 1/2 of a reverse wingover for enrty is probably good prep for moving past the beginner stage, but at my level of flying when I try an inverted pull out from vertical I am pretty "ground shy" and pull out pretty high, so I end up descending to level flight anyway, but not as much as pulling inverted from a lazy 8.
All opinions and advice welcome - I really want to improve and actually earn a good score at a contest - yeah thats a challenge to you Robert Ladd! I'm gunnin for you!
I just hope the Fireballs don't run out of " Sacrifical Lambs" for me to obtain as I spread carnage across the various NW flying sites - I know Richard must be running low, so all you Fireballs need to build new planes this winter so there is a pool of old ones for me to draw on when I get back up there.
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I always started the outside loops from inverted flight - 3 inside loops, another half loop to inverted flight, 2 laps inverted flight, 3 outside loops, another half outside loop to recover to upright flight. In other words, just like the full pattern but only 2 laps of inverted flight. At the time starting the outside loops by diving straight down from 45 deg was a bit daunting, and I thought that flying the loops the same as they would be flown in the complete pattern would make it easier to progress later on. Those two laps of inverted flight were by far the hardest part of the beginner pattern to learn!!
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I have to agree with you Dave- I struggle with inverted flight - going for more than a lap usually ends up at about 20-30 fett above ground - or 1 foot below. Crazy thing is - before I got serious about learning the pattern I used to be able to go 2-3 laps inverted- now I overthink it and " scare myself stupid".
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When I started a couple years ago, I flew the begginer pattern at McMinneville I think it was? That is how I did it, do your inside loops, then continue around till your inverted, and level out to fly two laps inverted, then do your outside loops. Seemed like the most logical way for me as I planned on moving up as soon as I could.
Keep fightin Bill, the key is perseverence,, ( oh and an unending supply of airplanes ;) )
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I guess i never thought of adding an extra 1/2 loop to my insides to get to inverted flight, I assumed you were supposed to finish the 3rd loop at level flight upright- that is what the drawing of them shows.
As usual - there are more ways to skin a cat than a cat cares to think about!
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Bill
As you know this can be done a few ways, but if you are uncomfortable with the inverted flight then just inter from the top. Eventually you will need to learn how to inter the outside square from the top and that can give a little more of a pucker factor. I can not remember any one entering it from a wingover during a contest, but if you talk with the judges before you flight they would most likely let you do this.
Regards
Robert
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Either way is fine and should be scored the same on the loop quality itself, but when I'm judging Beg or OTS, I tell them at the pilots meeting to please tell me in advance of what style entry they will do on outside loops and overheads in OTS, etc.
Funny, most in Beg find it harder to enter outsides from the top and take the "easy" way out by entering from inverted... as mentioned in another post, learning the top entry prepares you for outside squares. If it were me and inverted entry bothers you, I'd force myself to use the inverted entry, so as to push myself to get past it. When I was in Beg, the top entry bothered me, and yes, I forced myself to use the top entry.
My .02
EricV
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When I was a beginner, I flew one lap inverted and then did my outside loops. I don't think it matters which way you do it, because it should still be counted as outside loops.
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I'd say to go with the inverted entry. Main reason is that it prepares you for the full pattern. No reason to unlearn something to go to the next step.
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Not having gotten the chance to fly beginner, I would think finish the inside loops and go a quarter lap and go inverted. Then fly two laps to the outsides. Have fun, DOC Holliday
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Bill,
It was just a year or so ago I was asking the same question. (in my own mind)
Long story short.... do your three insides and a 1/2 loop into inverted. This will get you in the habit of "doing it right the first time".
By the time you get ready to do the advance pattern doing outside squares will not be hard at all. You will feel more in control of the airplane and it will not bother you to do a nose dive at the ground. <=
IMHO
Paul
PS- and if you get back out to Delta Park the the gang I said "HOWDY Ya'll" H^^
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Here's what it says in the AMA Rule Book (current, online) for the Beginner Pattern, starting with the inside loops. The asterisk (*) and definition below the landing gives the options for the outsides pretty clearly. I was going to delete the squares, 8's and landing, but noticed that the Pattern Points are still shown in the Beginner rules... wrongly, as I see it. We did vote to get rid of PP's, right? I guess the rules experts don't think to look at the Beginner Rules. Why do you suppose that is? Since PP's are in the rule book for Beginner, have we been wrong to not use them in this year's contests? Here it is, copied & pasted from the AMA Rules, a few minutes ago:
(Begin)
5.1.3. Three inside loops 0–40 (recover right side up or inverted)
5.1.4. Three outside loops* 10–40 (recover right side up)
5.1.5. Two inside square loops10–40
5.1.6. Two horizontal eights 10–40
5.1.7. Two overhead eights 10–40
5.1.8. Landing 0–40 Flight pattern points 0–25
*May be entered from upright flight with the maneuver starting at the 45 degree elevation; or by executing a half loop into inverted flight and entering the maneuver from level flight elevation; or by exiting the inside loops inverted and staying inverted two (2) laps (minimum) until the outside loops can be started. (END)
Given the above is correct (except the PP's SNAFU), I would suggest doing the loops with inverted laps between the insides & outsides, to avoid relearning issues later on. If you can do the 6 laps inverted, help yourself!
Note that in Beginner, the recovery from the outsides must be to upright flight. In OTS, if you take the inverted start option, you must recover to inverted flight and then 1/2 loop to return to upright to continue the tricks.
n~ Steve
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Thanks Steve; once again it has been shown - " When all else fails, read the directions" !
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Bill...I just re-read the part I copied & pasted from the rulebook, and noticed that the points given to the inside loops are claimed to be 0-40...it should be 10-40...so another error in the rule book that needs fixin'. n~ Steve
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Tonight, I submitted a rule change proposal, to fix the 0-40 points for the Insides and the Pattern Points situation (that needs to be deleted to be 'current'). It's all your fault, Bill! H^^ Steve
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Can't blame one person as we all should have caught that. Especially the beginners. Have fun, DOC Holliday
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Doc...Maybe I shoulda used a different emoticon? Bill's post got me to look at the Beginner PA Rules, and I noticed a few problems. Which obviously didn't get looked at by the expert rules writers in awhile. It also tells me that judges don't read the Beginner rules, or this would have been mentioned and repaired previously. That's not right!
R%%%% Steve
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As one of the Beginner Judges at the NW Regonials, we had the AMA Rules mistakes taken care of prior to the event. Yes the score sheets in the rules need to be up dated.
As for entering the outside loops you start from the inverted position OR at 45 degrees and then do a death dive...lol...then your exit is at the top of the last loop.
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As one of the Beginner Judges at the NW Regonials, we had the AMA Rules mistakes taken care of prior to the event. Yes the score sheets in the rules need to be up dated.
Kudos for that, Scott. H^^ Steve
As for entering the outside loops you start from the inverted position OR at 45 degrees and then do a death dive...lol...then your exit is at the top of the last loop.