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Author Topic: Beginner Pattern overhead 8  (Read 2154 times)

Online gene poremba

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Beginner Pattern overhead 8
« on: July 08, 2017, 01:26:12 PM »

 I am learning the beginners pattern, (at 59yrs old) :) My question is on the overhead 8 ,once I'm overhead, do I fly the inside portion of the 8 first or do the outside part first, or doesn't it matter? I have watched several videos on u tube etc and see beginners doing it both ways. What is correct? I have flown it both ways and I would like to practice it correctly. Also on the horizontal 8, I am being told to fly the AMA 8., once again, I see beginners flying both the AMA 8 and a lazy 8. I can fly both, but want to fly the pattern correctly. I guess its never too late to learn the pattern! thanks.....Gene

Online Dan McEntee

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Re: Beginner Pattern overhead 8
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2017, 01:38:14 PM »
I am learning the beginners pattern, (at 59yrs old) :) My question is on the overhead 8 ,once I'm overhead, do I fly the inside portion of the 8 first or do the outside part first, or doesn't it matter? I have watched several videos on u tube etc and see beginners doing it both ways. What is correct? I have flown it both ways and I would like to practice it correctly. Also on the horizontal 8, I am being told to fly the AMA 8., once again, I see beginners flying both the AMA 8 and a lazy 8. I can fly both, but want to fly the pattern correctly. I guess its never too late to learn the pattern! thanks.....Gene

   Hi Gene;
  Makes no difference how old you are, just remember that we all have been where you are, just at a different age maybe! At least you are getting up off your butt and DOING something that you enjoy  and that says a lot about you!
   As far as the over heads, do them as described in the full AMA pattern description. It's no harder than any other way, and you may as well get used to it. From your description, you sound like you already have a good grasp of how to perform the maneuver, and have the desire to practice it correctly so you won't have to relearn anything, so run with that. Just pull up into the vertical climb from level flight, up wind in front of the judges. Then do the first inside loop, then the outside, then inside again, then outside and exit like you are completing a wing over. Pull out as nicely as you can at 5 feet. Do the horizontal 8 as described also. You will be miles ahead on learning the whole pattern and be getting good practice at hitting the intersections and such. Do everything the same way as you practice, time each flight as if it were a contest flight, and get to know your power plant as best you can. That all breeds confidence in yourself, your presentation, and that helps you progress and get better scores.
   Good luck and have fun!
  Dan McEntee
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Beginner Pattern overhead 8
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2017, 02:46:48 PM »
I am learning the beginners pattern, (at 59yrs old) :) My question is on the overhead 8 ,once I'm overhead, do I fly the inside portion of the 8 first or do the outside part first, or doesn't it matter? I have watched several videos on u tube etc and see beginners doing it both ways. What is correct? I have flown it both ways and I would like to practice it correctly. Also on the horizontal 8, I am being told to fly the AMA 8., once again, I see beginners flying both the AMA 8 and a lazy 8. I can fly both, but want to fly the pattern correctly. I guess its never too late to learn the pattern! thanks.....Gene

   Start upwind, go into vertical climb. When you get to the top, do one complete inside loop, and that will get yo back to directly overhead, then immediately transition to an entire outside loop, inside loop, outside loop, and then come straight back down on the downwind side of the circle.

     There are a number of issues people typically have. The most obvious and common is to start too early (partly because Gentlemen of a Certain Age cannot lean back far enough to keep it in sight if you put it where it is supposed to be) and have the maneuver turn out too low, or out in front of you.  One of the problems with that is that this puts the loops on the upwind side of the circle where it tends to hurt the line tension. A second issue (sometime caused by the first( is making the loops WAY too big, like down to 15-20 feet at the ends of the loops. The entire maneuver is intended to take place above 45 degrees elevation. This is caused, usually, by lack of line tension. It is generally to your advantage to get it directly overhead, or even past overhead, than to have it in front of you, so learn to bend back as far as you can.

      The third big problem is that the intersections are all over the place. Particularly on a beautiful cloud-free day, there is absolutely no reference for where you started or did the last part of the maneuver, so it just tends to wander. What I suggest is, right from the start, to set your body up as a reference. Get your feet ahead of yourself as you get ready to do teh maneuver, so that your feet are on a line perpendicular to the dead upwind point. As you get there, rotate your upper body until you turn, and when you get the airplane vertical, your feet and shoulders should be perpendicular to the vertical line. Then, don't move them and use your feet as a reference for where you started.

     Note that in the vertical climb, you don't have to jam that corner really hard and make it sharp. If you swoop into the climb, you lose less speed, which means you have more line tension when you start the maneuver. In fact, you can whip the airplane into the turn. If you do this, you have to start well before you get dead upwind, so anticipate the right spot and start early enough to adjust the radius to what you want. In a wind, it will turn *very easily* compared to regular turns so it will want to "jump" into the vertical faster and sooner than you want.

   If you are going to make a mistake on the positioning of the climb - *don't go past dead upwind*. If you do, you will have to crab the airplane back into the wind and you are going to have all sorts of problems.

   A lot of stuff to think about, but if you can at least get it vertical with some speed, and get pretty close to overhead, it's not that hard to just execute the maneuver. It's hard to get it exactly right (and I probably would have won the 2008 NATs had I been able to do even an average overhead 8), but that's why people stick with the event for decades.

    Brett

Online gene poremba

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Re: Beginner Pattern overhead 8
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2017, 03:00:29 PM »

 OK thanks guys, I understand the overhead better 8 now...... As far as the horizontal 8, for the entry, do I fly from level flight, then pull "up" into the first half of the 8 (inside loop), OR do I pull up and then (push over the top ) & do an outside loop back to center? ( I hope that makes sense). Its hard to follow those arrows on the stunt pattern diagrams. ???

Online Dan McEntee

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Re: Beginner Pattern overhead 8
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2017, 03:09:07 PM »
OK thanks guys, I understand the overhead better 8 now...... As far as the horizontal 8, for the entry, do I fly from level flight, then pull "up" into the first half of the 8 (inside loop), OR do I pull up and then (push over the top ) & do an outside loop back to center? ( I hope that makes sense). Its hard to follow those arrows on the stunt pattern diagrams. ???

     Do the inside loop first, started from level flight. Try to put the intersection directly down wind.
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Beginner Pattern overhead 8
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2017, 03:11:59 PM »
OK thanks guys, I understand the overhead better 8 now...... As far as the horizontal 8, for the entry, do I fly from level flight, then pull "up" into the first half of the 8 (inside loop), OR do I pull up and then (push over the top ) & do an outside loop back to center? ( I hope that makes sense). Its hard to follow those arrows on the stunt pattern diagrams. ???

  In all the AMA figure-8 maneuvers (round and square) you do one complete inside loop first, followed by the outside. So, enter, pull up, do an entire inside loop, keep going to you get to the intersection, then do the outside loop.

     Brett

Online gene poremba

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Re: Beginner Pattern overhead 8
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2017, 03:24:09 PM »

 Got it!

Online Tim Wescott

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Re: Beginner Pattern overhead 8
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2017, 04:49:55 PM »
OK thanks guys, I understand the overhead better 8 now...... As far as the horizontal 8, for the entry, do I fly from level flight, then pull "up" into the first half of the 8 (inside loop), OR do I pull up and then (push over the top ) & do an outside loop back to center? ( I hope that makes sense). Its hard to follow those arrows on the stunt pattern diagrams. ???

This is all in the rulebook.  I know that we'd wish our hobbies didn't come with homework -- but it's not a bad idea to read the rules at least once in a while (in fact, I should do some review myself).

You do 1 1/4 inside loop, 1 outside loop, 1 inside loop, then 1 outside loop at which point you're technically done -- but it's best to continue on and complete 1 1/4 outside loops for a nice-looking recovery (and because the judges may not have read the rule book recently, either).

If you're a typical beginner, your maneuvers will be barely recognizable -- that's OK, it's expected.  You just need to keep flying and get better.
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Offline Norm Furutani

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Re: Beginner Pattern overhead 8
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2017, 08:22:13 PM »
Like Gene, I'm trying to get to step one and learn the beginner's pattern. What puzzles me, is the footwork on the overhead eight. Can this be done in one position?, do you follow it around? Is there a set pattern or does everyone figure out there own dance step? It doesn't help that I have a stiff neck and back!

Norm

Online Tim Wescott

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Re: Beginner Pattern overhead 8
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2017, 08:30:15 PM »
Like Gene, I'm trying to get to step one and learn the beginner's pattern. What puzzles me, is the footwork on the overhead eight. Can this be done in one position?, do you follow it around? Is there a set pattern or does everyone figure out there own dance step? It doesn't help that I have a stiff neck and back!

If you're flexible enough, plant at the beginning of the maneuver and just lean waaaaay back, without ever moving your feet until you recover.

Recently, I've changed to entering the maneuver over my shoulder, getting planed directly downwind while the plane is climbing, and then doing the loop with the plane "in front" of me.  The advantage is that if I'm not overhead I'll tend to be downwind, and in a strong wind I can cheat things a bit by flying the plane downwind a bit on purpose.  I'll be able to detail the disadvantages in a few months.
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Beginner Pattern overhead 8
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2017, 10:27:29 PM »
Like Gene, I'm trying to get to step one and learn the beginner's pattern. What puzzles me, is the footwork on the overhead eight. Can this be done in one position?, do you follow it around? Is there a set pattern or does everyone figure out there own dance step? It doesn't help that I have a stiff neck and back!

   Read above, but yes, at least some of us do it without moving our feet. It's just like doing it the horizontal 8, just with you leaning back. Set your feet on a line perpendicular to the center of the maneuver, then keep your hand about 18"- 2 feet from the center of your chest, and turn either way, and use your (unmoving) feet as a reference. It's easier said than done, particularly since people tend to make the maneuvers about 50% oversized on a routine basis (mostly because their airplane can't to a lot better due to power and trim issues).

     We were just coaching a 14-time National and World champ about his body placement and posture on the overhead 8 *this morning*, so you can see the importance placed on this even for the very best.

    There are a lot of things to learn about stunt, but as far as flying goes, you do yourself a *tremendous favor* by having very simple and clean posture. Almost all of those perpetual shape errors that are made by everybody are the result of *very simple* posture issues or habits you get into, and can be fixed immediately (and stay fixed, or be fixed again later) by almost trivial posture changes. One individual was known to have a particular shape error for literally decades. After all that time, in one flying session, someone noticed that he was tilting his head to the right in inside maneuvers, and that the shape error was in exactly the direction and magnitude of the tilt. A couple of flights to get used to holding his head upright, fixed completely.

   Do the maneuvers right in front of you, stand up pretty straight, hold you head up straight, don't be tilting/crouching/jumping around in the maneuvers, and form a solid reference frame and fly with respect to it.

     Brett

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Beginner Pattern overhead 8
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2017, 12:18:41 AM »
Don't forget to read the maneuver descriptions in the rulebook, not only the diagrams. And don't neglect the opportunity to do some "dry flying" (aka shadow boxing!) at home, or even at the field under instructions from your coaching staff...

Some help is often available on the Judging Clinic Forum. Currently, the H8 is on the 1st page, while the OH8 is on the 2nd page at present. I haven't read the posts under those topics for answers to your questions.

The maneuver topics move around, which wasn't my desire, but Sparky said I couldn't pin them in order. I wanted to start at Takeoff and end at Landing, then have other topics as they came up. Now that everything has been thoroughly thrashed, there's not much activity there, but I still look for new posts.  D>K Steve
"The United States has become a place where professional athletes and entertainers are mistaken for people of importance." - Robert Heinlein

In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Offline Norm Furutani

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Re: Beginner Pattern overhead 8
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2017, 04:51:47 PM »
On Tim's suggestion, I looked up the OH8 in the rulebook. The diagram in the book makes no sense to me! Maybe if I was a lefty and flying clockwise?

https://www.modelaircraft.org/files/CLPrecisionAerobatics2017-2018.pdf

Pg.9, section 13.13

Norm

Online Tim Wescott

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Re: Beginner Pattern overhead 8
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2017, 05:23:50 PM »
On Tim's suggestion, I looked up the OH8 in the rulebook. The diagram in the book makes no sense to me! Maybe if I was a lefty and flying clockwise?

https://www.modelaircraft.org/files/CLPrecisionAerobatics2017-2018.pdf

Pg.9, section 13.13

Norm

Well, it does take some head scratchin' but then it becomes clear.  The caption "Looking up at top of circle" helps:

  • Print it out big
  • Tape it to the ceiling
  • Stand underneath
  • Lean back, like you're doing the stunt
  • Trace the circles

And, Bobs Yer Uncle.
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Offline Norm Furutani

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Re: Beginner Pattern overhead 8
« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2017, 08:33:14 PM »
Okay - that was weird, but I got it.
Gene, I appolgize if I horned in on your thread!

Norm


Well, it does take some head scratchin' but then it becomes clear.  The caption "Looking up at top of circle" helps:

  • Print it out big
  • Tape it to the ceiling
  • Stand underneath
  • Lean back, like you're doing the stunt
  • Trace the circles

And, Bobs Yer Uncle.

Online gene poremba

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Re: Beginner Pattern overhead 8
« Reply #15 on: July 11, 2017, 03:30:34 AM »

 Norm, no problems here. I got the answer I was looking for......Gene

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Beginner Pattern overhead 8
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2017, 04:05:55 PM »
Bob's Your Uncle has nothing to do with the OH8, and in fact, I'm not even sure he can do an OH8. All I've seen him do was take the outboard wing off a Strega ARF by hitting a pole with it.

KEY to STARTING the OH8 is to get your feet planted correctly. You need to have them on the same axis as the centerline of the loops. Your first decision is whether you want to do the OH8's while facing upwind, or facing downwind. Which will determine how you move your feet as you enter the climb into the OH8.

Since we're mostly pretty old and decrepit, I suggest facing downwind. While in theory it won't matter, the fact is that most of us do them "upwind", because we can't bend over backwards enough to look straight up at the intersection. IMO, you'll do better OH8's on the downwind side, with more line tension, rather than upwind, with less line tension. To do this, you'd start the climb with the plane off your right shoulder (not Alan, of course!) and then move your right foot to plant it at on the axis of the two loops. Do this dance during the climb. It's my intention to make this change, but it will take some dry flying to get the footwork imprinted. I have tried it, but either started with the outside loop first or just had to bail out on the maneuver to avoid crashing.  y1 Steve
"The United States has become a place where professional athletes and entertainers are mistaken for people of importance." - Robert Heinlein

In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Offline Christian Chacha

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Re: Beginner Pattern overhead 8
« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2022, 11:46:54 AM »
It would be nice to see a Beginner Pattern Video on YOUTUBE to reference. Especially the different entries for the outside loops. The patterns you see online is the full pattern.

Online gene poremba

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Re: Beginner Pattern overhead 8
« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2022, 12:14:40 PM »
Christian, i remember posting this almost 5 yrs ago! I searched thru threads looking for videos of guys flying the pattern and trying to freeze the videos to look at entry and exit points too. Shug Emery has several videos on the Tube that are good to watch, but im not sure if its the beginner pattern or not off hand. This is a great place to get answers though....gene

Online Tim Wescott

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Re: Beginner Pattern overhead 8
« Reply #19 on: January 08, 2022, 12:28:57 PM »
It would be nice to see a Beginner Pattern Video on YOUTUBE to reference. Especially the different entries for the outside loops. The patterns you see online is the full pattern.

I see your point -- but it's not _that_ bad.

With the exception of the round loops and the wingover, each maneuver in the beginner pattern is exactly the same as the full pattern, on purpose.

Even the "rulebook" portion of the inside loop is the same -- in the full pattern the half loop to inverted at 45 degrees is, technically, not part of the loop (but when you get that far, fly it like you're being judged -- I always try to fly like I'm being judged, to maintain concentration and because you never know if the judges are behind on their homework).

I wouldn't dwell too much on getting the maneuvers exactly right in Beginner -- really, at the point where you're not crashing all the time and you're comfortable flying upside down you should probably move up to Intermediate.  For Beginner, if the judges can look at your maneuver and tell what you meant it to be, you're doing pretty good.

If you're really a beginner then for all the maneuvers generally, and for the outside loops specifically, fly for survival rather than rulebook excellence.  Put the bottoms of your maneuvers as high as they need to be so that you can survive, and put the tops where they end up.  In the case of the outside, start high so that you have plenty of room to miss the ground at the bottom.  Once you can regularly fly the pattern without crashing, then start working on consistency.  As you get more consistent you can start bringing the bottoms down -- figure that as long as your unauthorized approaches to the ground are always above two or three feet, then you can lower your maneuvers by a foot.  Eventually you'll be really consistent, and you can put the bottoms where they belong.
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Online Tim Wescott

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Re: Beginner Pattern overhead 8
« Reply #20 on: January 08, 2022, 12:31:41 PM »
One more note:

On your first few contest outings, consider that your goal is to learn how to fly at a control line contest.  If you can show up at the circle with a plane that's ready to fly, get the thing running, in the air, and back on the ground in the allotted time, and do it all without tripping over anyone else's lines or strangling a bystander or a judge with your lines, then you're ready to move on to the part where you don't crash the airplane before your round is over.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Beginner Pattern overhead 8
« Reply #21 on: January 08, 2022, 12:41:19 PM »
As I recall, the diagrams are shown for a guy flying clockwise, because George Aldrich created the modern pattern and apparently drew the diagrams, and he flew clockwise. Maybe it would be a good idea to revise the diagrams to counter-clockwise during one of the rules revisions, or at least point that out in flashing lights?   :) Steve
"The United States has become a place where professional athletes and entertainers are mistaken for people of importance." - Robert Heinlein

In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Beginner Pattern overhead 8
« Reply #22 on: January 08, 2022, 12:51:12 PM »
As I recall, the diagrams are shown for a guy flying clockwise, because George Aldrich created the modern pattern and apparently drew the diagrams, and he flew clockwise. Maybe it would be a good idea to revise the diagrams to counter-clockwise during one of the rules revisions, or at least point that out in flashing lights?   :) Steve

    ???   Which diagrams are you referring to?

      Brett

Offline Trostle

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Re: Beginner Pattern overhead 8
« Reply #23 on: January 08, 2022, 01:29:54 PM »
    ???   Which diagrams are you referring to?

      Brett

He must be looking at the rule book from the inverse universe.  Few people have ever seen it or even know about it. Some flat landers maybe?

Keith


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