Who's going to be the first??

[Bill Little]

Breaking off from another thread...... (also listed in the Classic Section)

My "Challenge":

I want to see a Club/CD put on a contest next year with one extra class added.   It will only cost one more set of awards.

Run, concurrently with Classic, a new event.  (Choose 1 of the 2 listed below)
1.  All pilots will fly at the same time.

2.  Each pilot must only fly one event or the other.

Separate Score Board for each Class.

Choices:

1. "Super '70s"-  Planes from Jan.1, 1970 to Dec. 31, 1979 (same eligibility rules as PAMPA Classic)

2. "Nostalgia"- The original rules for what we now call Classic, i.e.;  a 25 year cutoff date.

No time is added to the overall meet time to run this event, no more judges are necessary.  All pilots in both classes fly in front of the same judges, at the same time, in random order.  No one can fly in both.  Score will just be separated at the Score Boards.

Now, what's so hard about that??  Everyone gets what they want!

I'm serious!

[Bill Little]

Awwwww............. come on............ 100 views and no comments??  what's up with that???

[Allen Brickhaus]

Good idea.  They only have to declare which class when they register.  Hoooorah!

I vote for the Super '70s.

Allen Brickhaus

[Bill Smith]

don't rush me I'm thinking and its a slowwww  process. 

[RandySmith]

Breaking off from another thread...... (also listed in the Classic Section)

My "Challenge":

I want to see a Club/CD put on a contest next year with one extra class added.   It will only cost one more set of awards.

Run, concurrently with Classic, a new event.  (Choose 1 of the 2 listed below)
1.  All pilots will fly at the same time.

2.  Each pilot must only fly one event or the other.

Separate Score Board for each Class.

Choices:

1. "Super '70s"-  Planes from Jan.1, 1970 to Dec. 31, 1979 (same eligibility rules as PAMPA Classic)

2. "Nostalgia"- The original rules for what we now call Classic, i.e.;  a 25 year cutoff date.

No time is added to the overall meet time to run this event, no more judges are necessary.  All pilots in both classes fly in front of the same judges, at the same time, in random order.  No one can fly in both.  Score will just be separated at the Score Boards.

Now, what's so hard about that??  Everyone gets what they want!

I'm serious!

HI Bill

Yes I have heard that idea before Bob Hunt came up with that quite a while back , and
NOPE  they don't get what they want, I have spoke with right at a hundred people about this and the VAST majority really like it when NEW planes come into CLASSIC.  I think I would have a very hard time telling Les McDonald  that his  37 year old Stiletto and  Tropicair is  not a  classic  airplane.
I would say the same  about Lew McFarlands 35 year old AkroMasters, and  many others out there.
Just because someone wasn't born earlier or got into the hobby sooner that does not change what Classic is.
We are talking about soon to be  39 year old airplanes that some do not want to say are Classic ships.
If A 38 year old design is not Classic  I don't know what is. Many many things such as guitars ,Cars, real airplanes are Classics at 25 to 30 years old.

I have also spoke with many that run contest and  they  DO NOT want to buy another set of trophies, make other score sheets and keep up with whatever else is required to run another event, even if it is ran with another.

What is wrong with letting the members\ flyers decide what they would prefer to have as Classic ships and hear everyones thoughts?
If some people had their way no one would have any say in this.
The beauty of the Classic event as It was written and ran was that new planes come into being able to be built every year. That was one of the  biggest appeals to many flyers. 

I say have a reasoned calm discussion about it and decide just what teh majority of people want.

Randy

[Clint Ormosen]

I ditto Randy's post. I would like to see new planes become classic designs. Every single eligible classic legal model right now is older than me. Why can't this issue be put to a members vote? What's stopping it from reaching a ballot?
Couldn't any CD state that 25 yr old models are classic legal at HIS contest? 'Cause if he can, I will.

[Bill Little]

OK, Randy, I am NOT against changing the rules for Classic, but I don't know if that is going to happen any time soon.

Yes it IS Bobby's idea.  I did not say I was taking credit for the idea.  I know all the points you make are valid, and I would not argue them with you since I agree with you.

BUT, it seems very few people, right now, want to fly a Stiletto in their PAMPA class.  And they cannot *right now* fly them in PAMPA's *Classic Event*.  So, this would AT LEAST get things rolling.

Extra plaques or Trophies?  Extra Scoresheet on the Scoreboard?  That *might* just well be offset by the *extra* entries a second class of *Classic* would bring.  There is OTS I and OTS II in the GSCB rules.  Not a big problem as I see it.

Would we rather see more of these planes flying *right now*, or wait on the *possibility* of the rules changing in the near future?   Maybe, just maybe, a large turnout of '70s, or 25 year old planes (either one!), could lend more power to getting a rule change.......

Asking the pilots is EXACTLY what I am doing.  If everyone wants to fly these planes, and not have to fly them in PAMPA, then they will build them and enter the class if someone actually would put it on.  I believe it could give us an instrument to evaluate the possibility of getting a rules change.  A *Pilot Program* if you will.

And yes, everyone does get what they want, if what they really want is to fly these planes.

I would really like to have a Stiletto, Stunt Machine, Macaluso F-8, and several other planes from the period.

I am on YOUR SIDE, Randy, so don't shoot the messenger!

[RandySmith]

HI Bill

Im not shooting the messenger, just putting out a differant thought to discuss

Regards
Randy

[peabody]

I am sitting in the Berkshires at the Stunt Contest ably CD'ed by Gerry Byers and Bill Hummel. They flew Classic today with a cut off date of 1985....


Great fun, and the evening at Camp Hummel was terrific as well.....


PA tomorrow!

[PatRobinson]

Hi Guys,
In answer to Clint's question.  "Classic" is an "unofficial event" and as such the sponsoring club and the CD are the final authority to set the rules for an given unofficial event. The only requirement is that the CD must clearly advertise in advance the rule changes from the previous practice in all it's contest announcements and promotions.  It also must meet AMA safety code.

Whether it is a "Vintage Stunt" with a rolling date with all the planes combined or Bill's plan for  separate classes that are flown together is strictly up to the club and the CD. Now if other clubs in your region that draw the same contest attendees  as your club, are doing their event in one of these ways it might be easier to adopt that clubs method to make it easier on flyers in the region to have consistent rules and build the plane they want that is appropriate to the event. 

Clint, he bottom line is the CD and the club have the power to run their unofficial event their way as long as it meets the AMA safety standards and any rules changes are announced in advance.
In other words, there is no higher authority to get permission from to change
how you run your event. Clint if you are the CD then you and your club are the authority.

Whatever you do don't mention VSC and and these ideas in the same sentence because I don't want to again listen to the war that insues from doing that.   

Clint, I hope that answers your question. I did some research for another post and after I pulled out all they key passages from the AMA rulebook I confirmed with Keith Trostle that there had been no rules changes or contest board changes that would change the status of unofficial events, so the rules for unofficial events are what I told you. I hope this helped.

                                                          Pat Robinson

[Rudy Taube]

I ditto Randy's post. I would like to see new planes become classic designs. Every single eligible classic legal model right now is older than me. Why can't this issue be put to a members vote? What's stopping it from reaching a ballot?
Couldn't any CD state that 25 yr old models are classic legal at HIS contest? 'Cause if he can, I will.

Clint,

Yes! You CAN. Therefore, you will. 

This is a PAMPA event, not an official AMA event. Therefore the CD can do what you stated.

BUT, because most CL contests (CLPA, Classic, P-40, etc.) are held under the sanction of the AMA, you would be doing yourself, and your entrants, a "favor" by using the AMA CD guidelines for announcing any event deviations as far in advance as possible. The AMA recommends using as many media outlets as possible; club newsletters, email, forums, AMA contest calendar, etc. to announce your deviation. More AMA CD details here:

http://www.modelaircraft.org/events/compreg.aspx

RE: PAMPA Classic Rules. They almost invite you to try a =/> 25 year classic rule contest, if you think it will fill your contestants with joy.  ......  Please read the BOLD comments on the 1st page of the classic rules:

http://www.control-line.org/Portals/57ad7180-c5e7-49f5-b282-c6475cdb7ee7/CLASSIC%20RULES.pdf

Personally, I like Classic the way it is, but I think it would be worth trying something new at a few contests to see if it is an improvement.

Regards,  

Edit:  I just saw Pat's post, sorry guys I did not mean to be redundant :-(

 

[Bill Little]

HI Bill

Im not shooting the messenger, just putting out a differant thought to discuss

Regards
Randy

Thanks, Randy,

I just want to get something going.  There is plenty support for *somethiing* to be done.

[Clint Ormosen]

Thanks Pat. That's all the info I needed. We're considering having a contest next year and I'd like to move up the cut-off date for classic to '82. That date is not set in stone either, we'll be discussing it.

[Peter Nevai]

From what I understand is that classic was created with a rolling cutoff date, so each year a new set of planes would be eligable. But somewhere along the line it was changed to a fixed cutoff date. At least according to Ted.

[Bill Little]

From what I understand is that classic was created with a rolling cutoff date, so each year a new set of planes would be eligable. But somewhere along the line it was changed to a fixed cutoff date. At least according to Ted.

HI Peter,

Tom Dixon initiated an event called "Nostalgia".  It had a 25 year rolling cut-off.  PAMPA changed thrules a while later to a Dec. 31.1969  cut-off.  The reasoning was that a shift in design occured especially during the decade of the '70s.  Hence the 1969 cut-off would put "Classic" more in tune with the OTS event which has a fixed cut-off.  1969 marked the first time a foam wing plane won the Walker Trophy.

[steven yampolsky]

My "Challenge":

I want to see a Club/CD put on a contest next year with one extra class added.   It will only cost one more set of awards.

Run, concurrently with Classic, a new event.  (Choose 1 of the 2 listed below)
1.  All pilots will fly at the same time.

2.  Each pilot must only fly one event or the other.

I guess, I am with Randy Smith on this.

I judged Classic(pre-1987) at Lee contest this past weekend. We had top three finishes: Big Jim Patternmaster, an Aries and an Oriental. All three were VERY close score wise. The ONLY reason PM won is because of its gorgeous finish and Jim Dammerel's superb flying. His second round flight was very good!

The point I am trying to make is that there is no need to separate classes. pre-1970 models can hold their own against PM's and Stiletto's. Separation just for the sake of trophies is not a very strong argument.

[Bill Little]

I guess, I am with Randy Smith on this.

I judged Classic(pre-1987) at Lee contest this past weekend. We had top three finishes: Big Jim Patternmaster, an Aries and an Oriental. All three were VERY close score wise. The ONLY reason PM won is because of its gorgeous finish and Jim Dammerel's superb flying. His second round flight was very good!

The point I am trying to make is that there is no need to separate classes. pre-1970 models can hold their own against PM's and Stiletto's. Separation just for the sake of trophies is not a very strong argument.

Then, Steven, "you" have more or less executed the "Challenge".  The PAMPA rules that MOST people use Do have the dec. 31, 1969 cutoff.  I am simply trying to get MORE people to fly an extended time period.  I am not "against" Randy at all, so you don't have "to be with Randy on this".  Randy wants a rule change, I do, too.   The rule change isn't happening right away. 

This "Challenge" could give an impetus to getting a rule change.  Now we "know" that you have judged a contest where the cutoff was different.  How many total entries?? How many that were "post" 1969??  These stats can be used to gather backing for a rule change.

Just because the Lee contest did it, doesn't mean everyone knew about it, get my point?  We need it to be made public knowledge when the rule has been altered, and just HOW it was altered.

I know there are some here who really don't want Classic to change, Bigiron, you listening??   But I don not bvelieve, in my heart of hearts, that changing the rule will make Ares, Novis, Nakkes, etc., disappear from the Contest scene.  We build the planes we like to build and fly for the most part.  And there is no reason as to why a JD Falcon, or other "pre-1970" plane, is at any disadvantage.

People forget too often that the USA-1 is PAMPA Classic legal!  That plane was fllying (with only different *looks*) at the WCs through the '90s! 

[steven yampolsky]

This "Challenge" could give an impetus to getting a rule change.  Now we "know" that you have judged a contest where the cutoff was different.  How many total entries?? How many that were "post" 1969??  These stats can be used to gather backing for a rule change.

14 entries, 2 models were post 1970.

Just because the Lee contest did it, doesn't mean everyone knew about it, get my point?  We need it to be made public knowledge when the rule has been altered, and just HOW it was altered.

Well, who will collect such info? Who do I contact?
The rule in effect for Lee Classic class was "25 year cut off". Mass Cup, which is taking place this weekend is going to use the same rule.