Author Topic: B-17 lost today... bummer =-( (Read 5239 times)

Paul Taylor · « **on:** June 13, 2011, 01:29:55 PM »

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_bomber_crash

wwwarbird · « **Reply #1 on:** June 13, 2011, 01:40:10 PM »

A major bummer, and an enormous loss of a great WWII Warbird. At least it sounds like everyone walked away without serious injury. Kudos to the pilot.

http://www.arlingtoncardinal.com/2011/06/13/world-war-ii-vintage-b-17-bomber-liberty-bell-crashes-in-oswego/

Ron Merrill · « **Reply #2 on:** June 13, 2011, 01:46:39 PM »

That SUCKS

big time. Ron

peabody · « **Reply #3 on:** June 13, 2011, 03:04:44 PM »

While I really enjoy old airplanes (went with my dad's Reserve group to salvage planes in Aurora, IL) I think it might be time to quit flying them and stick to replicas...

Brian Massey · « **Reply #4 on:** June 13, 2011, 03:25:53 PM »

That is a very sad loss, but there is hope. The famed "Piccadilly Lilly" (I think it was the B-17 used in "12 O'clock High") continues to make progress thanks to the effort of the Planes of Fame museum in Chino, CA, and many many volunteers! I'm not sure how many parts of the crashed plane are salvagable, but I'm sure many are, and will be. Those parts will help other B-17's continue to live.

http://www.planesoffame.org/index.php?mact=News,cntnt01,detail,0&cntnt01articleid=52&cntnt01origid=15&cntnt01detailtemplate=default-details&cntnt01returnid=57

This arial photo shows just how badly the plane is damaged. Really sad.

But I think these old warbirds should continue to fly. Young people need to see them up close, and the best way is for the old birds to tour.

Brian

FLOYD CARTER · « **Reply #5 on:** June 13, 2011, 03:30:52 PM »

The B-17, with 4 piston engines, just has too many parts. And any one failing can cause "lack of flying". Remember, these old bombers were built to last only 25 missions, a matter of weeks or a few months, if that long.

During WWII, my mom worked at Douglas Aircraft, building the "Dauntless" dive bomber. Final inspection before a test flight often revealed shoddy or careless workmanship, which could have terminated first flight rather suddenly! Needless to say, the planes that survived up to now have had many mechanics replacing and rebuilding stuff, and jury-rigging parts that had to be hand-made. Too many chances for error.
Floyd

Paul Walker · « **Reply #6 on:** June 13, 2011, 03:44:15 PM »

I flew in that EXACT aircraft about 2 years ago when it was on tour in Seattle. Magnificant ride. Nothing like it. It was a terrible loss!

Paul Walker

PJ Rowland · « **Reply #7 on:** June 13, 2011, 04:14:44 PM »

Ouch...... that will be expensive - I would hate to know the insurance on a B-17

a few points if I may.

1: I thought the Flying fortress was less prone to fine damage due to reinforced shell - that fire has ripped through it and left nothing.

2: Will this be rebuilt - or would it be considered too damaged?

3: How many Fully flying B-17s are there ? I know there are only 2 Lancasters in "operation "

A truely sad site - Such a beloved peice of american wartime and aviation history......

Paul : I Bet flying in that B-17 would have been exhilarating a child hood dream no doubt .. I'd love to take a ride in a lancaster or something with a merlin.. just to hear it. - who else more qualified to talk about the pain of a crashed B17 .. What do you think of that as a rebuild?

Douglas Ames · « **Reply #8 on:** June 13, 2011, 04:19:15 PM »

Sad...that was a preventable loss. I think the FAA needs to toughen the FARs (maintenance) on vintage aircraft, especially when they haul passengers in a commercial capacity.

Douglas Ames · « **Reply #9 on:** June 13, 2011, 04:23:37 PM »

Quote from: PJ Rowland on June 13, 2011, 04:14:44 PM

Ouch...... that will be expensive - I would hate to know the insurance on a B-17

a few points if I may.

1: I thought the Flying fortress was less prone to fine damage due to reinforced shell - that fire has ripped through it and left nothing.

2: Will this be rebuilt - or would it be considered too damaged?

High octane Avgas will melt aluminum like butter...higher temps than Jet A.

There's still some unrestored B-17's around. I would consider this a loss, but lots of donor parts!

Mike Scholtes · « **Reply #10 on:** June 13, 2011, 05:13:48 PM »

Stop flying vintage aircraft?

I got to see an authentic Spitfire thundering through the skies above the English countryside a few years ago, low level passes, victory rolls, the whole works. I am sure I was not the only person at the field crying tears of joy and absolute exhilaration at this magnificent sight. To imagine that these machines would someday be relegated to museum exhibits is unthinkable and would represent a huge loss to our collective spirit. The Brits certainly feel that way and are determined to keep them in the air as long as there are people who know what a Spit represents to our freedom.

wwwarbird · « **Reply #11 on:** June 13, 2011, 05:28:19 PM »

Quote from: Douglas Ames on June 13, 2011, 04:19:15 PM

Sad...that was a preventable loss. I think the FAA needs to toughen the FARs (maintenance) on vintage aircraft, especially when they haul passengers in a commercial capacity.

They say this was not a revenue (paid passenger) flight which is good in this case.

Please folks, we can't jump to panic mode everytime there is an incident, things do just happen sometimes. This country is already suffering so badly from being dumbed down by over regulation that I want to puke most days. Will people ever figure this out and knock off all the whining?

This particular incident appears to be a situation where the pilot made exactly the right decision. He was doing everything possible to save the aircraft, until the point where preventing loss of life, in the air and/or on the ground, became the absolute priority. Yes, it's very sad to lose such a great airplane, but losing lives would have made the incident much worse.

Costs are already extremely high to maintain and fly vintage aircraft, especially Warbirds. If you don't like fueling a car or truck with $4.00 a gallon gas, try pulling up to the pumps with a B-17. And fuel is only one item on the long list of expenses of Warbird operation. These airplanes belong in the air whenever the owners are willing to fund such activity and do it safely. I personally thank the owners who choose to do so, and I smile with pride everytime I see a Warbird take to the air. Keep'em flying!

Fred Cronenwett · « **Reply #12 on:** June 13, 2011, 05:42:05 PM »

Sad to see the Liberty Belle crash, The B-17 visited Wichita in 2007 and 2010. I have had the pleasure of seeing a A6M5 Zero and Bf-109E fly at the Chino Airport and remember it clearly. On Dec 7th, 1991 the Planes of Fame flew a SBD, the Zero and the P-40 over the airfield, it sent chills up my spine seeing those old aircraft fly like that, amazing site. I glad the owners decide to fly them, with extreme caution however.

there are some picture of Liberty Belle when she was in Wichita in 2010.

Fred Cronenwett

Bob Whitely · « **Reply #13 on:** June 13, 2011, 05:59:07 PM »

Any time we lose a plane it is a sad day.

I have a very hard time with some of the self serving comments on this thread.

1. We shouldn't fly these planes anymore and let them rot in museums. Totally stupid!

2. This was an avoidable accident. How would you know? Do you have any stick time in
a B17? Are you a licensed pilot? Maybe and A and P? Another stupid comment!

I am an avid warbird enthusiast and do have a couple of flying tickets. There are many
more knowledgeable individuals out there than me and they would not be saying
anything like the above statements.

Unbelievable!!! RJ

Paul Taylor · « **Reply #14 on:** June 13, 2011, 06:46:31 PM »

Quote from: Douglas Ames on June 13, 2011, 04:23:37 PM

High octane Avgas will melt aluminum like butter...higher temps than Jet A.

There's still some unrestored B-17's around. I would consider this a loss, but lots of donor parts!

We did have the Memphis Belle here in Memphis and it was outside for the most part. Most of the outside of the plane was there, but it was missing some inside parts. Hate to say it but now maybe they can get some of the missing part. Or better yet get is flying. It was moved up to Dayton OH, so they could store it inside and maybe get it restored.

http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=6740

Steve Scott · « **Reply #15 on:** June 13, 2011, 08:23:20 PM »

Liberty Belle was in St. Paul just 2 weeks ago. I was sent scurrying out of the house both Saturday and Sunday when I heard radial engines. She passed directly overhead at about 1000 feet. Awesome sight and tragic loss. Glad there was no one hurt.

M Spencer · « **Reply #16 on:** June 13, 2011, 08:55:15 PM »

Bugger. You can never have too many fire extinguishers about the place . Just in Case .

Douglas Ames · « **Reply #17 on:** June 13, 2011, 09:43:08 PM »

Quote from: wwwarbird on June 13, 2011, 05:28:19 PM

They say this was not a revenue (paid passenger) flight which is good in this case.

Please folks, we can't jump to panic mode everytime there is an incident, things do just happen sometimes. This country is already suffering so badly from being dumbed down by over regulation that I want to puke most days. Will people ever figure this out and knock off all the whining?

This particular incident appears to be a situation where the pilot made exactly the right decision. He was doing everything possible to save the aircraft, until the point where preventing loss of life, in the air and/or on the ground, became the absolute priority. Yes, it's very sad to lose such a great airplane, but losing lives would have made the incident much worse.

Costs are already extremely high to maintain and fly vintage aircraft, especially Warbirds. If you don't like fueling a car or truck with $4.00 a gallon gas, try pulling up to the pumps with a B-17. And fuel is only one item on the long list of expenses of Warbird operation. These airplanes belong in the air whenever the owners are willing to fund such activity and do it safely. I personally thank the owners who choose to do so, and I smile with pride everytime I see a Warbird take to the air. Keep'em flying!

I wasn't talking about the Pilot or his heroic actions. I was talking about the people responsible for the maintenance of that aircraft. When they haul around paying passengers whether it's a donation or a fee, they are responsible for their safety. Period.

About 5 yrs ago I helped rebuild the LH outbd wing section of CAF's B-29 "FIFI" in Coweta, OK along with half dozen other AMT's from American Airlines Overhaul facility in Tulsa. It was trucked up from TX while the rest was undergoing major overhaul. What we found was astounding...Unchecked heavy corrosion, illegal repairs to major structure and total neglect. Yeah it had a fancy free paint job by Boeing in the past, but it was obvious what repairs were vintage USAF and what was from "Inexperienced Volunteers". They just weren't concerned with "Airline quality" workmanship and wanted their wing fixed and shipped back (We replaced spar sections and had wing attach fittings made from raw stock-free) The entire trailing edge ribs were replaced with new fabricated parts-custom stamped from hand made molds.
From what I understand 3 of the 4 freshly overhauled engines were trashed by an overzealous Flight Engineer- The nose cases started to make metal (wear) You just don't chop the throttles on a geared engine! (backlash).

Sorry if i'm bitchin' but as an AMT w/ 31yrs exp. I see first hand what the flying public does not. That Foundation was damn lucky no one was killed.

wwwarbird · « **Reply #18 on:** June 13, 2011, 10:24:06 PM »

Douglas, please know that I wasn't dissing you above. I just used your comment to try and remind everyone not to immediately start jumping to assumptions and conclusions and turning this incident into another stop flying Warbirds thing.

Simply stated, it is up to the owners and operators of these aircraft to make sure airframes and systems are all up to snuff. Sadly, some of them don't. I'm not insinuating here that Liberty Belle's operators and crew are in that latter category, I certainly hope not. It will be interesting to find out the exact cause of the fire, and we will. Hopefully is was not just a stupid mistake that caused the incident today. (Remember what happened when Greenamayer attempted to fly a B-29 out?)

We Warbird fans do know there are some marginal operators out there. More legislation can and will never fix that reality. That potential operator problem is relative to everything humans are involved with, everywhere. Sorry, but I always just hate to see even hints of suggestions for more legislation that gradually chips away at our freedom, especially when it comes to any type of aviation.

One good thing is that modern Warbird restorations are typically more meticulous than ever these days. That development has been great to watch.

Norm Faith Jr. · « **Reply #19 on:** June 13, 2011, 10:37:41 PM »

Quote from: Douglas Ames on June 13, 2011, 04:23:37 PM

High octane Avgas will melt aluminum like butter...higher temps than Jet A.

There's still some unrestored B-17's around. I would consider this a loss, but lots of donor parts!

AV higher???
JET A...130,000 BTUs
AVGAS...125,000BTUs
Norm

wwwarbird · « **Reply #20 on:** June 13, 2011, 10:53:58 PM »

Quote from: PJ Rowland on June 13, 2011, 04:14:44 PM

Ouch...... that will be expensive - I would hate to know the insurance on a B-17

a few points if I may.

1: I thought the Flying fortress was less prone to fine damage due to reinforced shell - that fire has ripped through it and left nothing.

2: Will this be rebuilt - or would it be considered too damaged?

3: How many Fully flying B-17s are there ? I know there are only 2 Lancasters in "operation "

PeeJay,

(1) It would appear that the main reason the damage was so severe was because there were no fire crews available quickly enough. I am assuming here, but it looks to me like the plane was set down in the field safely on it's landing gear and the pilot got it stopped, but fire crews arrived too late to save it. The fact that all aboard got off safely also suggests some of this.

(2) Like many restorations that sometimes start with as little as an original data plate it may be "rebuilt" from the ground up at some time, but this airframe is definitely not repairable.

(3) Last I knew, including Liberty Belle, there was something like only a dozen flyable B-17's worldwide.

EDIT: I just found this group of photos. The plane was landed and stopped safely with the wheels down. Too bad fire crews didn't get there sooner, she would have been damaged but possibly saved largely intact. Notice that the number two prop is feathered so that engine may be the culprit.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-110613-b17-plane-crash-pictures,0,3672607.photogallery

Chris McMillin · « **Reply #21 on:** June 14, 2011, 12:53:37 AM »

Hi Guys,
The airplane had just taken off, had a chase plane with it, a Lima Lima T-6 aerobatic team airplane, along side. That pilot is heard telling the bomber that it was on fire. Shortly thereafter (can be heard on ATCLive.com) he is telling them to, "...get it on the ground now!" The crew fought the observed fire on the number two engine or system, probably shutting it down and pulling the fire-pull for that engine to try to reduce the flow of gasoline from the tank through the gascolator or boost pumps (the area where the inflight shots show the flames). Then made a high angle of bank turn while configuring to land (putting the gear and flaps down), lining up on the corn field and landing the airplane, coming to a full stop on the gear, without hitting anything, and then shutting down the engines. All escaped, someone bumped their noggin' getting out (the only injury) and the airplane burned to the ground because the gasoline ran down the dihedral angle to the bomb bay by gravity and fed itself with the many hundreds of gallons of fuel on board (the B-25 and DC-3's I've flown hold 940 and 800 respectively, double that for the B-17 easy)providing plenty of head pressure.
The crew did a great job, the chase plane was a great asset, and we're all glad that those fragile humans on board are here to fly another day.
Chris...

P.S. Floyd Carter, this airplane was rolled out of it's ground up restoration in 2004 from Tom Reilly's famous and esteemed shop. It's owned by a multi-millionaire and maintained by the maintenance crew that does all of the work for his foundation's fleet of warbirds. (This owner has another B-17 in restoration right now.) The airplane is on a progressive maintenance schedule approved by the FAA and this airplane is one of a few on a special issuance waiver to operate for hire, giving educational rides for compensation. They have a stricter FAA oversight than other warbirds. I can only assume one of two things from your post; 1) You don't like warbird operators and make disparaging remarks about them as a rule. 2) You restored your Focke Wulf in the manner you described this airplane to be and are speaking from your own experience.

PJ Rowland · « **Reply #22 on:** June 14, 2011, 02:45:30 AM »

Built to be Flown ... Not Shown

peabody · « **Reply #23 on:** June 14, 2011, 04:09:13 AM »

Some more pics...
http://photos.denverpost.com/mediacenter/2011/06/photos-wwii-b-17-bomber-crashes-outside-chicago

Was it '05 that FiFi made several passes over the AMA site?

Chris mentions Tom Reilly's facility.....if anyone is ever in the area, it's well worth the time to tour...they pretty much need only castings and forgings to manufacture B-25's and Corsairs, having patterns for the rest of the airframes "in stock".

Jo Ann Keville · « **Reply #24 on:** June 14, 2011, 05:09:02 AM »

That is so sad to see, They are such beautiful planes. I have had the pleasure of going up in one. The "Sentimental Journey"
She is housed just a few miles from where I live here in Mesa. I also get the pleasure of seeing he fly around the area once in a while. Seeing her fly by is like looking back in time. Absolutely the most beautiful sight. I love that plane and being able to fly in her was one of my most wonderful experiences ever. I was able to be up in the nose turret for take off and boy what a view that was, It was amazing. Every one who loves planes should experience a flight like that once in their lives. It is really sad to have lost one of those great birds.

john e. holliday · « **Reply #25 on:** June 14, 2011, 07:42:55 AM »

It is so sad when ever I hear of an old plane going down. But, accidents do happen. Even in modern equipment. I have had the privilage of seeing some of the old planes in the air flying into or out of the old Munipal Airport in KCMo. One of the best shows I ever saw was at the old Olathe Navel Air Station by the CAF. We got to get close to the planes until the sirens started going off. The action was close and it is hard to imagine what the air crews went thru during the war, any war. I am glad the crew made it out safe and sound.

wwwarbird · « **Reply #26 on:** June 14, 2011, 10:15:02 PM »

Thanks for the extra info Chris, and for refreshing my memory a bit on "Liberty Belle". I can't remember the name, but I do recall now that the owner runs a top notch operation. I read an article about him and his collection somewhere not all that long ago, maybe Air Classics or Warbirds Int'l. Tom Reilly's restoration work is as good as it gets as well.

Chris McMillin · « **Reply #27 on:** June 21, 2011, 06:16:50 PM »

Quote from: Douglas Ames on June 13, 2011, 09:43:08 PM

I wasn't talking about the Pilot or his heroic actions. I was talking about the people responsible for the maintenance of that aircraft. When they haul around paying passengers whether it's a donation or a fee, they are responsible for their safety. Period.

About 5 yrs ago I helped rebuild the LH outbd wing section of CAF's B-29 "FIFI" in Coweta, OK along with half dozen other AMT's from American Airlines Overhaul facility in Tulsa. It was trucked up from TX while the rest was undergoing major overhaul. What we found was astounding...Unchecked heavy corrosion, illegal repairs to major structure and total neglect. Yeah it had a fancy free paint job by Boeing in the past, but it was obvious what repairs were vintage USAF and what was from "Inexperienced Volunteers". They just weren't concerned with "Airline quality" workmanship and wanted their wing fixed and shipped back (We replaced spar sections and had wing attach fittings made from raw stock-free) The entire trailing edge ribs were replaced with new fabricated parts-custom stamped from hand made molds.
From what I understand 3 of the 4 freshly overhauled engines were trashed by an overzealous Flight Engineer- The nose cases started to make metal (wear) You just don't chop the throttles on a geared engine! (backlash).

Sorry if i'm bitchin' but as an AMT w/ 31yrs exp. I see first hand what the flying public does not. That Foundation was damn lucky no one was killed.

CAF Fifi and Liberty Belle are two different operations. You seem to be mixing the two together.

Liberty Belle had a fire from an, as of now unknown, origin within the number two engine's systems. The airplane was essentially new, a ground up resto first flying in 2004. Whatever happened to the fuel system will be of interest to every B-17 operator. The CAF and other operators have grounded their airplanes for inspections based on the assumptions of the cause of the Liberty Belle's operators.

I know people that know a lot about airplane structures that cannot get their own airplane flying because they are so busy "perfecting" it. There needs to be a balance of airworthiness to safety. I know you know what I mean.

BTW, the CAF's B-29, Fifi, has had a multi-million dollar overhaul with a re-engineering of the nacelles accepting new version R-3350 power sections installed as well as much needed maintenance in other areas. The airplane only resumed flight operations this year. I did not hear about any engine related problems associated with the new engines this year, so I would assume that you had a part in the restoration process that the B-29 had undergone over the past several years. This must make you feel a bit better that the discrepancies you repaired were also thought to need correction by those operators of the airplane.

Chris...

peabody · « **Reply #28 on:** June 21, 2011, 06:44:03 PM »

Chris....
Didn't Kermit Weeks fly a B-29 (mayhaps a B-50?) into Miami only to have a hurricane destroy it? I think it was apart for rehab, but his air force suffered a LOT of damage.....enough, I think, to spur the move to Lakeland?

Douglas Ames · « **Reply #29 on:** June 21, 2011, 06:49:40 PM »

Quote from: peabody on June 21, 2011, 06:44:03 PM

Chris....
Didn't Kermit Weeks fly a B-29 (mayhaps a B-50?) into Miami only to have a hurricane destroy it? I think it was apart for rehab, but his air force suffered a LOT of damage.....enough, I think, to spur the move to Lakeland?

B-17...

John Stiles · « **Reply #30 on:** June 21, 2011, 06:54:54 PM »

Quote from: Douglas Ames on June 13, 2011, 04:23:37 PM

High octane Avgas will melt aluminum like butter...higher temps than Jet A.

There's still some unrestored B-17's around. I would consider this a loss, but lots of donor parts!

Like JP-5? Most likely not JP-6

Douglas Ames · « **Reply #31 on:** June 21, 2011, 07:05:11 PM »

Quote from: Chris McMillin on June 21, 2011, 06:16:50 PM

BTW, the CAF's B-29, Fifi, has had a multi-million dollar overhaul with a re-engineering of the nacelles accepting new version R-3350 power sections installed as well as much needed maintenance in other areas. The airplane only resumed flight operations this year. I did not hear about any engine related problems associated with the new engines this year, so I would assume that you had a part in the restoration process that the B-29 had undergone over the past several years. This must make you feel a bit better that the discrepancies you repaired were also thought to need correction by those operators of the airplane.

Chris...

I was involved when they first disassembled the aircraft for overhaul and only on the LH outbd wing section. I had heard they were exploring options in regard to a hybrid R-3350 engine. The "serviceable" parts for the early versions have dried up.
I'm glad to see it's back in the air!
I think the standard for Warbird restorations is the P-38 "Glacier Girl". I visited their shop in KY when it was about 60% - absolutely beautiful workmanship!
There is a another B-29 undergoing restoration in Witchita- "Doc"
www.b-29doc.com/

peabody · « **Reply #32 on:** June 21, 2011, 07:56:12 PM »

Nope Doug....it was either a 29 or a 50 that was lost in Miami....I saw it prior to disassembly and post hurricane.
He has a B 17 inside his place that he uses as an exhibit...

Paul Taylor · « **Reply #33 on:** June 22, 2011, 06:08:43 AM »

Read the rest of the story here..... http://www.libertyfoundation.org/index.html

Sad that the fire department did not try and put the fire out. They just sat and watched it burn. $:-\$

john e. holliday · « **Reply #34 on:** June 22, 2011, 08:46:26 AM »

Have you ever got a fire truck stuck in a muddy field. From what I could see of the pictures a lot of it can be salvaged.

Douglas Ames · « **Reply #35 on:** June 22, 2011, 03:34:42 PM »

Quote from: peabody on June 21, 2011, 07:56:12 PM

Nope Doug....it was either a 29 or a 50 that was lost in Miami....I saw it prior to disassembly and post hurricane.
He has a B 17 inside his place that he uses as an exhibit...

The B-17 was heavily damaged by Hurricane Andrew in `92 but if you look at the picture, above the White forklift...? Not sure what his current inventory is since he moved.

Chris McMillin · « **Reply #36 on:** June 23, 2011, 03:38:02 AM »

Fertile Myrtle, Kermit's B-29, was disassembled and under resto when Andrew hit. I saw the nose in Chino, CA around 1994 being reskinned by the Sanders. The airplane had been in nearly ferriable shape in the 80's at Oakland, CA but after two attempts at flying it with two catastrophic engine failures it was decided to move it to FL on a truck. I think it is still in pieces.
The B-17 flew about a mile on it's own and landed in the grass on the field during Andrew. It has been restored and on display at the Fantasy of Flight for years.
The A-26 Whistler's Mother in the picture is at Chino, CA with Aero Trader being restored, again.
AFAIK.
Chris...