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Author Topic: Appearance points revisited  (Read 1989 times)

Offline Matt Brown

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Appearance points revisited
« on: August 02, 2022, 03:22:23 PM »
No complaining here about the system. I’m in the middle of my first paint job. I’m realizing that this is a buttload of work and so many questions I have no answers for. I do have some local help but that’s not the same as experience of my own. As I’m slathering on the dope with filler, coat after coat, I’m starting to think it’s just not worth it! Not to mention the thought of the many hours of sanding I have to look forward to! I have 30ish years of experience with iron on films and can do a fairly decent job with them. My question is how bad does film covering versus paint hurt you on the points? I was asking a number of flyers with painted planes at the Nats what they scored on appearance points. I realistically can’t hope for more than 13 points on this first paint job.
I’m wondering if I should just iron on a finish and shoot it with some clear and hope for the best. I’d hope I could get 11-13 points with a decent iron on job. Just have to resign myself to not getting those 5-7 extra points.
What are your thoughts?

Thanks, Matt

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Appearance points revisited
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2022, 04:52:03 PM »
No complaining here about the system. I’m in the middle of my first paint job. I’m realizing that this is a buttload of work and so many questions I have no answers for. I do have some local help but that’s not the same as experience of my own. As I’m slathering on the dope with filler, coat after coat, I’m starting to think it’s just not worth it! Not to mention the thought of the many hours of sanding I have to look forward to! I have 30ish years of experience with iron on films and can do a fairly decent job with them. My question is how bad does film covering versus paint hurt you on the points? I was asking a number of flyers with painted planes at the Nats what they scored on appearance points. I realistically can’t hope for more than 13 points on this first paint job.
I’m wondering if I should just iron on a finish and shoot it with some clear and hope for the best. I’d hope I could get 11-13 points with a decent iron on job. Just have to resign myself to not getting those 5-7 extra points.
What are your thoughts?

Thanks, Matt

  It is certainly possible to get 14-15 points with Monokote, and that has happened several times. 15 is close enough to most of your competitors that it doesn't knock you out.

    You are making it hard on yourself with dope, I think either automotive colors and urethane clear, or epoxy colors and urethance clear, are a lot easier to deal with.

        Brett

Offline Matt Brown

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Re: Appearance points revisited
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2022, 05:16:09 PM »
Those products may be great and much easier than dope but I have good experience locally with dope that I can draw on. No known experience locally with those other products. On top of that, I’m really not a good artistic/detail kind of guy. I do extremely well with the mechanical aspects but the creative side is completely foreign to me.

Matt

Offline John McFayden

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Re: Appearance points revisited
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2022, 08:23:08 AM »
What "clear" works well over the iron-kotes? Seals and doesn't crack with sun, heat and age?

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Appearance points revisited
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2022, 08:29:08 AM »
What "clear" works well over the iron-kotes? Seals and doesn't crack with sun, heat and age?
I have used Rustoleum over MonoKote with no problems after 2 years, even with occasional heat gun tightening.

Ken
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Offline Shorts,David

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Re: Appearance points revisited
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2022, 09:41:22 AM »
Hi Ken, I'm sharing here on behalf of my dad. He does monocote and although there are one or two who are better than him, his finishing is superb.
But, It depends on the judge. Larry Fernandez is an excellent finisher and he awarded my dad 18 one time for a monocote finish. The same quality of finish got a scathing 12 one time by a judge who noticed it was monocote and not paint. Rumor is, one of Kaz Minatos concours winning planes was monocote with some paint trim. I think that's the real secret. Put some paint on your monocote, but again, all depends on the judge. An outstanding monocote job takes as much skill, though admittedly not as much time, as an outstanding paint job. Of course, a dope job takes more time than other paints out. Are we judging time or finish quality? Depends still on the judges biases.
Another argument in favor of monocote. There are great finishers on here who could silkspan, prime and paint a model with minimal effort and get a fifteen point finish (I suspect), while putting in less work than a superb monocote job.

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Appearance points revisited
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2022, 10:21:03 AM »
Hi Ken, I'm sharing here on behalf of my dad. He does monocote and although there are one or two who are better than him, his finishing is superb.
Couldn't agree more.  Same was true for pipes and electric power when they were introduced.  MonoKote has been around for a long time so the biases are deep seated.  Still, if you don't have the ability to have a nice paint shop then it is viable option.  One of our local experts is very good at it.  He sands the seams and buries them in the trim.  Then he clear coats.  You can't tell if he didn't tell you.  The key, as you said, is to paint your trim and have enough of it take your attention away from the covering.  Another huge plus - the masking tape doesn't pull or blead as much!

Ken
« Last Edit: August 03, 2022, 10:58:34 AM by Ken Culbertson »
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Offline Matt Brown

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Re: Appearance points revisited
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2022, 10:44:28 AM »
The idea of monokote base and painted trim is intriguing. What kind of paint and what surface prep is needed for the trim colors to stick?
I really was wanting to paint initially because I know film finishes don’t last long. A clear over the top of the film (and proper clean up after flights) may get durability similar to a painted finish.

Thanks, Matt

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Appearance points revisited
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2022, 11:45:18 AM »
The idea of monokote base and painted trim is intriguing. What kind of paint and what surface prep is needed for the trim colors to stick?
I really was wanting to paint initially because I know film finishes don’t last long. A clear over the top of the film (and proper clean up after flights) may get durability similar to a painted finish.

Thanks, Matt
I have only used spray paints.  Rustoleum and Krylon but others I know have used dope and some of the auto stuff, don't know the specifics.  Prep is simple.  Thoroughly clean the surface, mostly to get oil from your hands, etc off then lightly sand with 800.  Sand the seams a little harder but not more that is needed to take the edge off.   I use vinyl tape for masking.  You can really press the edges of the tape because is not going to pull when you take it off.  It might lift the MonoKote from time to time, but it is easily reattached.  The only color I have been able to find an exact match for with spray paints is Jet White and Rustoleum Bright White Gloss.  The biggest drawback to monokote is the inability to do concave curves - fillets, nose scoops and the like.  This is one of the big reasons I think a lot of us paint fuselages. I have found several ways to get around this if you are not after that 20-point finish but all of them show a little up close.  The Convex curve is where MonoKote shines.

A word on masking - I have had bad luck with vinyl masks.  No idea why, maybe it is the brand - I use self-adhesive shelving paper which I have used with great success on polyspan/paint but for some reason they bleed on MonoKote.  The vinyl masking from 3M works like a charm.

I can't speak to the longivity issue.  My planes tend to fall victim to the many forces dedicated to eliminating PA planes from the face of the earth well before the covering fails.  Most I have had is 5 years with no degradation when it burned.

As to points - the two MonoKote entries from our group got 13 and 16 points at the Nats this year.

Ken
« Last Edit: August 03, 2022, 12:05:25 PM by Ken Culbertson »
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Offline Matt Brown

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Re: Appearance points revisited
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2022, 01:34:07 PM »
Thank you Ken! My abilities are likely limited to the sub 15 point range no matter the finish materials. I’ll be happy if I can get 13-15 points with the reduced efforts of film! Completely agree on the difficulty of monokote and concave surfaces. I’d probably forego external fillets using film.

Matt

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Appearance points revisited
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2022, 02:11:27 PM »
Thank you Ken! My abilities are likely limited to the sub 15 point range no matter the finish materials. I’ll be happy if I can get 13-15 points with the reduced efforts of film! Completely agree on the difficulty of monokote and concave surfaces. I’d probably forego external fillets using film.

Matt

  I very strongly encourage you to use Monokote on the wings and tail, and paint everything else - I would recommend Klass-Kote but dope could be used. Doing only the fuselage greatly cuts down on the amount of work involved and is much better suited to all the compound curves.

     Brett

Offline Matt Brown

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Re: Appearance points revisited
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2022, 02:51:30 PM »
What is the procedure for where the film meets the paint? Fillets over covering?

Matt

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Appearance points revisited
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2022, 03:03:21 PM »
What is the procedure for where the film meets the paint? Fillets over covering?

Matt
Probably mulitple cats to be skinned here but I say do the fillets first on the bare wood.  Remember you do not dope anything to be MonoKoted.  Monokote right up to the fillet then use some very thin filler to smooth the joint, smooth it and sand the joint with 800.  When you paint the fuselage, paint about 1/2" OVER the monokote. 

Ken
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Appearance points revisited
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2022, 03:35:50 PM »
What is the procedure for where the film meets the paint? Fillets over covering?

  That's what I always did, assemble the airplane, silkspan/dope the fuse, Monokote up to about 1/4" from the fuselage, apply fillets over the monokote, finish the fuselage.

    As mentioned, I got 15 points at the Lubbock NATs on an airplane that had been crashed a day and a half before we left, and I was painting on the canopy with a brush in the parking lot of the appearance judging site. I was aided by my friends (Bill and David Fitzgerald) and the fact that it was well over 100 degrees in David's garage, so paint and glue cured rapidly.  That airplane (before and after) qualified in Open 7-8 different times, I think my highest finish was 9th.

              Brett

     

Offline Matt Brown

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Re: Appearance points revisited
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2022, 04:08:21 PM »
Thank you for the help! Ken and Brett, you’ve both convinced me film on wing and tail with paint on the fuse is probably my best bet. I have a Pathfinder LE and a Dreadnought next in line for glow and a rehashed SV11/Genesis for electric power. This may take some of the stress off of me for these builds. I don’t expect to get them all done by ‘23 Nats but I can hope!

Matt

I’m sure there will be more questions but this should help me for a while.

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Appearance points revisited
« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2022, 04:17:58 PM »
Some of the Salt Lake City guys are famous for nice finishes (and trim) with Monokote over silkspan with one or two coats of dope. When Monokote first came out, that was the recomended method, but that was also when the stuff was sticky without heat. Maybe Brent Williams can give more details? Sealing the seams with Monokote Solvent or some sort of topcoat is probably very important for slimers.

I have an ex-Norm Whittle model that is 2-tone white/red (both epoxy) with the trim (blue) done with Monokote, apparently applied and sealed with Monokote solvent (I read that they don't sell it anymore). There is no topcoat, but that trim will NOT come off the white epoxy with any method I've tried, including Monokote solvent, heat, and sharp objects.

My FF experience (weighing between coats of clear dope) has convinced me that the first coat of clear dope over tissue  adds almost all the weight, and subsequent coats (clear) added almost nothing. I can't say that this applies to silkspan or polyspan, but for certain, clear is MUCH lighter than pigmented dope, so I'm all for building up the substrate with clear dope before you change to primer, silver, grey or white basecoat. 

If you are ok with a "colored tissue" look, using 10% pigmented dope with 90% clear will look much the same but won't fade nearly as bad as real colored tissue, and will be much lighter. You can also add UV blocker to some types of top coats, but not sure if you can add it to dope. A lot of guys locally have added pigment in paste form to clear dope. Both methods look similar to colored tissue, but often better...and the reduced fade is HUGE, long term.   y1 Steve
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Offline Brent Williams

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Re: Appearance points revisited
« Reply #16 on: August 03, 2022, 05:12:00 PM »
Some of the Salt Lake City guys are famous for nice finishes (and trim) with Monokote over silkspan with one or two coats of dope. When Monokote first came out, that was the recomended method, but that was also when the stuff was sticky without heat. Maybe Brent Williams can give more details? Sealing the seams with Monokote Solvent or some sort of topcoat is probably very important for slimers.

I have an ex-Norm Whittle model that is 2-tone white/red (both epoxy) with the trim (blue) done with Monokote, apparently applied and sealed with Monokote solvent (I read that they don't sell it anymore). There is no topcoat, but that trim will NOT come off the white epoxy with any method I've tried, including Monokote solvent, heat, and sharp objects.

My FF experience (weighing between coats of clear dope) has convinced me that the first coat of clear dope over tissue  adds almost all the weight, and subsequent coats (clear) added almost nothing. I can't say that this applies to silkspan or polyspan, but for certain, clear is MUCH lighter than pigmented dope, so I'm all for building up the substrate with clear dope before you change to primer, silver, grey or white basecoat. 

If you are ok with a "colored tissue" look, using 10% pigmented dope with 90% clear will look much the same but won't fade nearly as bad as real colored tissue, and will be much lighter. You can also add UV blocker to some types of top coats, but not sure if you can add it to dope. A lot of guys locally have added pigment in paste form to clear dope. Both methods look similar to colored tissue, but often better...and the reduced fade is HUGE, long term.   y1 Steve

I have one of Norm's old Sultans as well.  His last glow powered Sultan, actually.  My task upon receiving this plane from Norm was to complete the electric conversion he started and to recover the one wing panel.   Norm covered the geodetic wing with silkspan, one or two coats of thinned dope, and then white Monokote.  I am not sure if Norm used nitrate or butyrate dope on the silkspan.  The fuselage finish is Klass Kote epoxy.   The 10+ and 2 year old Monokote has remained nicely tight on both wing panels. 
 John Miller has written about this method a few times as well.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2022, 10:41:31 PM by Brent Williams »
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Offline Matt Brown

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Re: Appearance points revisited
« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2022, 05:17:10 PM »
I have one of Norm's old Sultans as well.  Norm covered the geodetic ribs wing with silkspan and maybe one or two coats of dope and then with white Monokote.  The Monokote on my plane has stayed tight.  I had to recover one wing panel and the Monokote stuck to the previously doped silkspan nicely.  John Miller has written about this method a bit as well.

I’m surprised covering over doped silkspan doesn’t trap a lot of air leaving a bubble behind.

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Appearance points revisited
« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2022, 05:30:20 PM »
I’m surprised covering over doped silkspan doesn’t trap a lot of air leaving a bubble behind.

The idea is to use 1-2 coats of clear (and lightly sanded to remove any bumps), leaving the covering porous enough for the bubbles to be a non-issue.

Brent...mine is an Eagle, not a Sultan. I do have a Sultan that I got from Pete Peterson. It needs a new nose grafted on, as the OEM nose has structural softness and way too much lead glued in. I still need to "get right on that". Norm designed some very good ones.  H^^ Steve
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Offline Brent Williams

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Re: Appearance points revisited
« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2022, 06:10:05 PM »
Here is the uncovered wing panel on my Sultan.  There wasn't much dope on the silkspan at all. 

Steve...this plane is also getting a new nose right now... I hooked up the lines backwards and knocked the nose off. n~
It is/was an exceptionally good flying plane.  It will be back in the air later this summer.  I am very excited to fly this one again.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2022, 07:29:35 PM by Brent Williams »
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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Appearance points revisited
« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2022, 06:35:14 PM »
Since we are stuck on MonoKote, I just paid $30 for two rolls of Jet White at Horizon with free shipping.  That is better than our LHS, much better.  Free shipping for Military & Vets.

Ken
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Offline Matt Brown

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Re: Appearance points revisited
« Reply #21 on: August 03, 2022, 06:53:35 PM »
Since we are stuck on MonoKote, I just paid $30 for two rolls of Jet White at Horizon with free shipping.  That is better than our LHS, much better.  Free shipping for Military & Vets.

Ken

Was that with shipping?

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Appearance points revisited
« Reply #22 on: August 03, 2022, 07:29:42 PM »
I’m surprised covering over doped silkspan doesn’t trap a lot of air leaving a bubble behind.

  Norm's airplanes worked pretty good, but, I would just do it normally, it is perfectly satisfactory.

    Brett

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Appearance points revisited
« Reply #23 on: August 03, 2022, 08:25:45 PM »
Was that with shipping?
No shipping was $4.99

ken
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Offline Shorts,David

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Re: Appearance points revisited
« Reply #24 on: August 04, 2022, 09:11:31 PM »
Painting over silkspan, polyspan is much different than painting a composite molded surface. Correct? It looks like an easier process to get a composite surface smooth and shiny than a fabric surface. Therefore, if a composite surface can get 19 or 20 when done equisitely, why not monocote? Or do some have biases against composite surface same as against monocote?
« Last Edit: August 04, 2022, 11:23:58 PM by Shorts,David »

Offline Perry Rose

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Re: Appearance points revisited
« Reply #25 on: August 06, 2022, 09:20:24 AM »
 I have painted over Monokote many times with all the mentioned paints including Dupli-Color. (except epoxy) I have roughed the surface on some and only cleaned it with lacquer thinner and/or acetone on others with the same results. The worst paint to use, I have found, is dope. I've had sheets of it fly off in flight. I stripped the rest with masking tape. Rustoleum enamel is the best as it's a bit flexible,lays flat and shiney and not at all fuel proof. The trick is to keep it away from where the exhaust will be. I don't paint anything within 6 inches of the fuselage. Electric your golden. I found a can of Rustoleum Lacquer that went on very well and didn't do anything under a coat of auto two part clear. Dupli-Color engine colors work extremely well.
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Offline Matt Curtis

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Re: Appearance points revisited
« Reply #26 on: August 06, 2022, 10:20:08 PM »
I have tried the monokote over silkspan and can always see the grain of the silkspan underneath the monokote. It looks bad. You can't sand the silkspan much if it doesn't have much dope on it and you don't want much dope on it to keep air bubble out.  You are supposed to iron the monokote down on the silkspan to get a good bond to keep it from sagging and wrinkling. Any tips to make this look good ? Should the silkspan be sanded with 1200 grit sandpaper to get it really smooth? Maybe I should do another test panel to experiment with this to make it look good?

Offline kevin king

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Re: Appearance points revisited
« Reply #27 on: August 06, 2022, 10:31:10 PM »
20 year old Tsunami prepped and ready to fly at the RC Fun Fly event. Dope and silkspan finish of course.


Offline Shorts,David

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Re: Appearance points revisited
« Reply #28 on: August 06, 2022, 11:13:36 PM »
I have tried the monokote over silkspan and can always see the grain of the silkspan underneath the monokote. It looks bad. You can't sand the silkspan much if it doesn't have much dope on it and you don't want much dope on it to keep air bubble out.  You are supposed to iron the monokote down on the silkspan to get a good bond to keep it from sagging and wrinkling. Any tips to make this look good ? Should the silkspan be sanded with 1200 grit sandpaper to get it really smooth? Maybe I should do another test panel to experiment with this to make it look good?
I don't understand why you're putting monocote over silkspan rather than over bare wood. All the rc and cl planes I've done have been over bare wood. My brother still has some 20+ year old monocote planes too.

Offline Matt Brown

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Re: Appearance points revisited
« Reply #29 on: August 08, 2022, 04:42:44 PM »
David touched on it, but why do you put down some silkspan first then cover with Monokote? Only thing I can think of is structural strength and stability.

Thanks, Matt

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Re: Appearance points revisited
« Reply #30 on: August 08, 2022, 04:53:09 PM »
If you're after structural strength and stability, along with the use of an iron on covering....SLC over silkspan/polyspan is the way to go. Just do a quick search on it - the 2 gurus of that technique are Larry Renger and John "Doc" Holliday.

Here's a quick link to the thread that started it all: https://stunthanger.com/smf/paint-and-finishing/slc-over-polyspan/

Steve

Offline Matt Brown

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Re: Appearance points revisited
« Reply #31 on: August 08, 2022, 04:55:01 PM »
If you're after structural strength and stability, along with the use of an iron on covering....SLC over silkspan/polyspan is the way to go. Just do a quick search on it - the 2 gurus of that technique are Larry Renger and John "Doc" Holliday.

Here's a quick link to the thread that started it all: https://stunthanger.com/smf/paint-and-finishing/slc-over-polyspan/

Steve

Isn’t SLC the combat film that Phil Cartier sold?

Online Steve Berry

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Re: Appearance points revisited
« Reply #32 on: August 08, 2022, 05:13:38 PM »
Isn’t SLC the combat film that Phil Cartier sold?

Yep, sure is. That's exactly what it is. And, once you put it on, a light scuffing with a 3M pad and you're good to go for painting.

Steve

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Appearance points revisited
« Reply #33 on: August 08, 2022, 07:03:20 PM »
David touched on it, but why do you put down some silkspan first then cover with Monokote? Only thing I can think of is structural strength and stability.

  You would have to ask Norm, but, presumably, that is why - it's stiffer than straight monokote.

    I question whether it is worth it compared to just stiffening the structure. Just my opinion, but I stick with my earlier advice, just Monokote it normally, because putting it over silkspan and dope seems highly prone to problems for minimal improvement.

   Brett

Online fred cesquim

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Re: Appearance points revisited
« Reply #34 on: August 09, 2022, 05:39:59 AM »
monokoted wings & tail and painted fuse/trim colors are my choice finishing method for the last 10 years. light, strong. i paint over the monokote ( 800grid ligtly sanded) with lacquer auto paint ( solid colors) and polyester for metallics. do the panel lines and then clear coat with 2 part clear.
one advice: stick to monokote, nothing else will last longer and beat the finish result. I was advocate of orakover but found some 10 years old planes i´ve built for others delaminating. so i switched to monokote.

Offline kevin king

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Re: Appearance points revisited
« Reply #35 on: August 09, 2022, 10:17:58 AM »
Fred, Do you have any more pictures of the first plane, with the transparent red covering?

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Re: Appearance points revisited
« Reply #36 on: August 09, 2022, 11:21:46 AM »
Fred, Do you have any more pictures of the first plane, with the transparent red covering?
yes Kevin quite a few
this is my version of Bob Hunt´s Holeshot ( i beam wing, full body and some 10% bigger)
translucent red monokote and lacquer/polyester paint over

Online Steve Berry

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Re: Appearance points revisited
« Reply #37 on: August 09, 2022, 11:23:25 AM »
That is....gorgeous!

Nicely done. Any chance for updated plans?

Steve

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Re: Appearance points revisited
« Reply #38 on: August 09, 2022, 12:14:35 PM »
That is....gorgeous!

Nicely done. Any chance for updated plans?

Steve
thanks Steve!
i am waiting a friend to draw for publishing, hopefully soon! thanks!
she´s a nice flyer, will try to make a film

Offline kevin king

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Re: Appearance points revisited
« Reply #39 on: August 10, 2022, 12:51:38 AM »
Really is a fantastic looking plane Fred. Thanks for posting it! What engine is in it?

Kevin

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Re: Appearance points revisited
« Reply #40 on: August 10, 2022, 03:54:43 AM »
Really is a fantastic looking plane Fred. Thanks for posting it! What engine is in it?

Kevin
thank you Kevin, Max 35 FP x 10x4 prop
working on the plans for a future article or even a kit
regards

Offline George Grossardt

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Re: Appearance points revisited
« Reply #41 on: August 10, 2022, 10:08:10 AM »
20 year old Tsunami prepped and ready to fly at the RC Fun Fly event. Dope and silkspan finish of course.

God, I love that thing Kevin!

Offline kevin king

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Re: Appearance points revisited
« Reply #42 on: August 10, 2022, 11:32:01 AM »
God, I love that thing Kevin!
Thanks George. It flew well out at the demonstration we did for the RC club. No practice flights or anything. They allowed us 10 minutes. Dead reliable user friendly ST 60 and Tsunami did well considering it was the 1st and only flight this year. Lots of pressure!

Offline kevin king

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Re: Appearance points revisited
« Reply #43 on: August 10, 2022, 11:35:19 AM »
thank you Kevin, Max 35 FP x 10x4 prop
working on the plans for a future article or even a kit
regards
Yes, an article and plans will be great. I can appreciate the extra effort of not only doing a nice finish on the outside but having to have the wood work perfect as well, being transparent. Very impressive. I wish i had more experience with Iron on coverings now!

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Re: Appearance points revisited
« Reply #44 on: August 10, 2022, 12:39:57 PM »
Isn’t SLC the combat film that Phil Cartier sold?

Still selling it, Matt.  It's readily available now.  Only change, a forced one. I had to go with 0.001" instead of 0.00075".  The 75 guage material is apparently out of production.  You could probably get them to make it if you bought 20-30 tons.

Phil C
phil Cartier


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