Appearance points for beginners?

[Bob Reeves]

OK, What are your views on appearance points for beginners? I know that normally beginners are exempt from appearance points because the odds are pretty good they are flying an airplane built by someone else.

But what about the guy that built his own airplane or put together his own ARF shouldn't they be rewarded? Also wouldn't this give the ones that didn't have much to do with building a little incentive to get involved in the building process..

On the other hand, as far as I know, no other club in the USA gives appearance points for Beginner. Why should Tulsa do it?

[Alan Hahn]

It would seem like to me that the incentive to build should be an internal thing, not imposed.

[Mark Scarborough]

Personally I dont think that is one that should be different. Flying in contests for the first few times is intimidating enough. adding appearance points would be another thing to overcome for a newby, well at least a contest newby. Beginner should remain a way for inexperienced, or less skilled pilots to get their feet wet, I beleive that If you add appearance points you will hurt the class.
My two cents worth.
and for what its worth, I built my own planes for flying in begginer but still dont think it would ba  good idea.

[Bob Reeves]

Another ingredient in the mix is we are using Marvin's appearance point system and ARF's will receive points. I think this changes the recipe enough that including Beginners in the appearance judging process might be a good thing.

[john e. holliday]

Read your rule book.  No appearance points for the beginner stunt pattern.  If they want appearance points have them fly Intermediate.  DOC Holliday

[catdaddy]

Read your rule book.  No appearance points for the beginner stunt pattern.  If they want appearance points have them fly Intermediate.  DOC Holliday

Gee Doc doesn't the rule book also say that a CD can add or subtract from the rules as long as it doesn't create a saftey issue and plenty of prior notice is given?

It's funny that the guys that always preach that this is a building/flying event don't think beginners’ should get appearance points. Everyone including beginners’ knows that appearance points are part of the sport. When I was flying beginner I resented the fact that I received NOTHING for my effort in building yet some of the models I saw in intermediate looked like they belonged in beginner. I'm sure I'm not the only one that ever felt this way. It's not going to scare a beginner off anymore than having to do an overhead 8. Please...I was more intimidated by the prospects of doing the hour glass than I was at the possibility of being judged for my building/finishing efforts.

Bob I think it's another idea that's long over due. Even though I think it's too late to do it this year I think we should do it next year and make note of the response. It will be another example of how Tulsa leads and not follows.

edit
One additional thought. The strong BOM supporters should realize there may be a strong benefit to starting beginners off wanting to build their own models for appearance points. It may be the only way to add supporters to the BOM camp. It rewards EFFORT. How can you expect beginners to develop skills if you don't reward them for it?

[walter weatherford]

Usually when I agree with Catdaddy, I am either feverish, or sick.  Unfortionately in this case I believe that he is correct.  Unless someone has time invested in an activity there is no reason to stay with that activity.  I have seen a number of folks go and buy a RTF RC plane, and get tired of it (the plane) and drop out of the hobby.
Usually the folks that stay with our hobby are those that have invested time and money building building an airplane and then learning how to fly the airplane.  Otherwise it is just like a video game!!

I am feeling feverish!!!!

[Bob Reeves]

<snip>
Leave well enough alone. 

And if we all think like that how are we ever going to really know if the status quo is as good as it gets. Might be that someones hair brained idea could lead to something as significant as instating PAMPA skill classes was.

[catdaddy]

Usually when I agree with Catdaddy, I am either feverish, or sick. 

I am feeling feverish!!!!

Take two asprin and build a Guided Muscle you old fart

BTW It was good to see photographic evidence that you still know how to fly! I personally think Lee should have put it on the home page of the web site!

[james dean]

There I was....at the "Raider Roundup" back in '90 or so. A rank beginer, never been to a C/L contest before till this one. A box stock SIG twister with an OS FP .40on the front, painted like a Blue angles FA 18. My heart all up in my throat and nervious as heck.  Jack Pitcher by my side showing me how to arrange my lines and plane so it would be ready on the flight line when my turn came.  He said: don't fuel the plane till just befor you'er up next. (don't want your engine to flood while you're waiting) Oh, and did I mention that guys like Bob Palmer, Paul walker, ect. where there? WATCHING? There were a hundred other things to know when you're at a contest the first few times you fly at one. You know, I don't think it ever entered into my mind  about the appearance points. I hoped to just not make a fool of myself in front of all those people over concrete!  My finish on that airplane just needed to stay put on the ribs till I got done shredding the beg. pattern and got back to my seat.   Appearance points? I would rather have not had anyone looking at this plane for appearance points other than to make sure it was built and prepared to fly in a safe manner. 


For what it's worth

James dean (a rebel for A cause)

[catdaddy]

There I was....at the "Raider Roundup" back in '90 or so. A rank beginer, never been to a C/L contest before till this one. A box stock SIG twister with an OS FP .40on the front, painted like a Blue angles FA 18. My heart all up in my throat and nervious as heck.  Jack Pitcher by my side showing me how to arrange my lines and plane so it would be ready on the flight line when my turn came.  He said: don't fuel the plane till just befor you'er up next. (don't want your engine to flood while you're waiting) Oh, and did I mention that guys like Bob Palmer, Paul walker, ect. where there? WATCHING? There were a hundred other things to know when you're at a contest the first few times you fly at one. You know, I don't think it ever entered into my mind  about the appearance points. I hoped to just not make a fool of myself in front of all those people over concrete!  My finish on that airplane just needed to stay put on the ribs till I got done shredding the beg. pattern and got back to my seat.   Appearance points? I would rather have not had anyone looking at this plane for appearance points other than to make sure it was built and prepared to fly in a safe manner. 


For what it's worth

James dean (a rebel for A cause)

I can appreciate your feelings on this, but it sounds like there at the end you are saying it wouldn't have affected you negatively if someone would have said "Your plane is built poorly and is unsafe to fly!", but if someone would have looked at your plane and said "Hey, that's a cool scheme...Blue Angles...9 points for effort." this would have increased your anxiety? I would think it would have pumped you up with a little confidence not to blow those PAMPA 8's. Any Beginner that doesn't want his plane judged for appearance certainly should have the right to ask that it not be, it is a competition, and it is just model planes...It will make them better modelers in the long run. Those that get chased off by this aren't going to stick with it for very long anyway.

[james dean]

Catdaddy,

I'm sure you're right.  Staying with this sport is partly on account of improving my "game" of building and finishing.

I'm just trying to say that as a beg. there was so much more to be concerned with at the first few contests than appearance points.    

Why would anyone want to remain looking like a beginer?

Anyway, my first stunter's qaulity made me want to learn how to do a better job of building and finishing.

I'd like to say thanks to all those who contributed to my growing success in this sport! All the guilty, you know who you are!  

[Andrew Hathaway]

Most beginners don't have the most beautiful planes, and really they shouldn't be required to build to impress just to compete at that level.  It's more important that the plane flies OK and survives the flight.  By giving appearance points, it may mislead a beginner to invest so much time and effort into a finish, that a crash (not uncommon at that skill level) could throw away a huge investment.  I could see that kind of disappointment driving people away from wanting to jump right in and do it again.  The pattern, and the nature of competition is already enough for the beginners to worry about.  The ones that want to put the time into their finishes certainly can, and already do, but it shouldn't be a requirement or concern for every beginner entry.  The added beauty points will come up later, and most beginners aren't going to stay in beginner very long anyway.  If the flyer wants beauty points, let them learn the rest of the pattern.  Keep beginner stunt as uncomplicated as possible!

[catdaddy]

The ones that want to put the time into their finishes certainly can, and already do, but it shouldn't be a requirement or concern for every beginner entry.  The added beauty points will come up later, and most beginners aren't going to stay in beginner very long anyway.  If the flyer wants beauty points, let them learn the rest of the pattern.  Keep beginner stunt as uncomplicated as possible!

It's not a requirement at the Int, Adv, or even Exp levels (except the NATS). I Fly all the time with out appearance points. We are talking about rewards and encouragement.

Look, if a beginner is only concerned with learning the ropes then so be it they probably aren't flying something they built anyway which would disqualify them for points just like all the other skill classes. He/She probably isn't going to be bothered that someone else was rewarded for their efforts. But if there is one that takes the time to be creative then reward them or he/she may be discouraged. Which one would you rather discourage, the person that doesn't care about how their plane looks or the one that does? Which one is more likely to remain with the sport and advance to the next level? What the heck is so complicated about receiving a reward for your efforts? Some of you fellas think it might be too much for beginners, that's cool, but it may be that it's NOT ENOUGH for the ones that might see the challenge in this hobby/sport.

Not trying to be obnoxious, I just think this is a good idea.

[Bob Whitely]

Appearance points for beginner? I don't think so.  It's enough for them just to get a plane together that is flyable and safe.  The odds that they are going to crash it after not too many flites makes the idea of building a really nice plane just obnoxious!  Besides it is just about all they can do to even get the plane off the ground and if they do a good job flying it then they should be in Novice, not Beginner anyway.

No appearance points for Beginner or Arfs, Barfs, and all the rest that has been talked about.  If you built it you get them.   If not, you don't!  This is not a difficult concept  to grasp.  Ahhh well...........RJ

[Andrew Hathaway]

Hey, everyone has the right to their own opinion... I remember my first contest very well.  I was so nervous I picked up my handle upside down and promptly did 2-3 inside loops panicking, trying to figure out why I was giving the plane full down and it was going up before it smacked the pavement... I had destroyed my best plane in a practice flight at 8:30am the day of the contest before anyone had even put in an official flight.  The last thing I wanted to worry about was a few points, or who built my plane, or blah blah blah.  I don't feel that beginner is the place to be encouraging everyone to build concourse planes.  The current status quo already is beginning to suggest that a beginner needs a plane that's well beyond the requirements of the beginner pattern.  It's the wrong direction to go IMHO.  The goal should be to get MORE beginner entries, not to scare them off with 'Oh well you need a plane with 600 square inches, a piped wonder engine, a $30 carbon fiber prop, and a concourse finish if you want to win beginner'.  

Beginner should be a place for newbs to get their feet wet with the least trouble.  The problem with recognizing extra effort is when it comes at the expense of penalizing the other competitors.  It's not unusual for a few points to make the difference between winning and losing in stunt.  Is it fair for one guy to place first because he's spent his life laying candy paint on hot rods when some other guy flew a more accurate pattern but can't get as nice a finish?  I appreciate a well built plane as much as the next guy, but really the place for that sense of accomplishment is an afternoon at the field with your buddies, giving and receiving compliments on the nice finish on someones new plane.  Or the morning of the contest when someone notices how neat and clean your finish is and sparks up a conversation asking about your process.  It means so much more in that environment then a number on the bottom of a scoresheet that nobody else ever sees.  There's already a reward that recognizes beauty, in the concourse award that most contests give in one form or another.  

It's not a requirement for anyone to put a nice finish on their plane in INT/ADV/EXP, unless of course they actually want to place.  One point can mean the difference between placing, even the worst finish is likely to get 8 points... A finish with any attention to detail is going to be good for at least 10 points, and if you give up those points in INT or ADV you really have to fly hard to make up for the loss.  Take a look at OTS, note how many flyers are willing to give up the 10 point non-flapped bonus.  Even though a 52 Nobler might fly a better pattern, there sure are a lot more Ringmasters, Humongous, etc...  You may think you're encouraging one aspect, but you'll be discouraging something else at the same time.  

[Brett Buck]

OK, What are your views on appearance points for beginners? I know that normally beginners are exempt from appearance points because the odds are pretty good they are flying an airplane built by someone else.

But what about the guy that built his own airplane or put together his own ARF shouldn't they be rewarded? Also wouldn't this give the ones that didn't have much to do with building a little incentive to get involved in the building process..

   I don't see that many Beginners flying OPPs or ARFs - seem to be hardly any different mix than the other events, say. 10% or so. But naturally I think it would be a good idea to put appearance points back in, using the same rules for the other classes. I am no fan of the beginner pattern, either, but it doesn't seem to hurt anything too much either.

    The original idea was to "encourage participation" (but as always, it's not clear to me that it actually does that), not necessarily because it was assumed beginners were going to fly borrowed airplanes. Bear in mind that when the change to a separate Beginner pattern and rules was made, there were no ARFs and everybody up to then had to either comply with the BOM or not have appearance points. It was no different from the other classes in that regard. So not a lot of people considered this a burning question.

     Of course, appearance points or not made (and would make) precious little difference in the outcome in Beginner - even less than Advanced and Intermediate, just because the very wide variation in scores and skill in Beginner swaps the appearance points difference. I recall my first contest in Beginner, I got a 380 or so and just blew everybody else out of the water, and that was pretty much how it always was - range would be from 20-30 points (crash early on) to about 400.  And, I might add, all the beginners managed some shot at a complete pattern to various degrees of recognizability.  I haven't paid a lot of attention or analysis to current beginner scores, but I would be surprised if it was any different now aside from the overall score being lower.

On the other hand, as far as I know, no other club in the USA gives appearance points for Beginner. Why should Tulsa do it?

      For the reasons you mention. All you have to do is announce it in the sanction and the contest ads.  \

    Brett

[ray copeland]

Point of view from a 54 year old beginner. I drive 2 hours once a month to be around some control line flyers. I try to learn from the Forums in which i am a member and the help is very appreciated. I have made a lot of good and bad decisions in buying engines and accesories , but i am learning. I am not sure of the difference between basic and beginner, i stare at the "patterns" in the Brodak catalog and wonder if this is what i supposed to try to learn to do. I have cleared a 35 foot flying field in my back yard against the wishes of my lovely bride in which to fly and practice with my small planes. I build my own planes, some from kits, some 1/2a's from scratch, even my flite streak arf has a fuselage and nose that i built. Up until this thread this has been fun and inviting for me. I am scared to death of tearing up my "good" airplanes after the first lap of inverted flight. I am determined to participate in next months contest.  Let them judge my rustoleum if they feel that is a factor in my abilities!!  Ray Copeland ,  Whitsett, NC

[Steve Helmick]

We had a guy show at a local contest with a piped rear exhaust engine of some sort...nice plane...freely admitted he bought it. And he flew it pretty well, could obviously do at least most of the full pattern with no sweat. But he entered Beginner...excuse me, but that's just wrong! Appearance Points have nothing to do with that being wrong! Steve

[Bruce Hautamaki]

    Just my two cents worth but I don't think its a good idea. When I flew beginner way back then I flew with planes I didnt build. Not because I couldn't build but others were better than mine. Beginners are nervous enough with out the added stress. It isn't a big deal either way tho. Just hate to see something not broke get fixed again.
    When I was 15 I worked at a hobby shop and all the guys would bring thier planes in when they were done. I built a Flite Streak. Testors Lime gold fuse with burgandy purple on the wings. I thought it was sooo beautiful I came to work early to hang it on the ceiling to show. When the others came in they were asking who built that ugly piece of sh*t hanging there. I snuck it into the backroom by lunch time and took it home that night crushed. Me that is, not the plane. Looking back it truly was one heck of an ugly plane, but in my eyes back then it was something. Leave the beginners alone and let them fly. Just my two cents, I don't think its a big deal either way.


      Have fun, Bruce

[Mike Keville]

Bruce, I feel your pain!  Going way back to '52 with this one:

At age 12 I built a then-new-on-the-market (at $2.95) S-1 Ringmaster, lovingly finishing it with about a pound's worth of yellow & black Testors 'STA'.  It was my first 'big' model, and I thought it was just about the prettiest thing I'd ever seen.  At last...I could be 'one of the guys'.

Took it to the local field, proudly set it down near the circle.....then watched in shock as the guys laughed their buns off while proceeding to point out various, ahh, 'shortcomings'.  Their overall theme seemed to be that perhaps I should become familiar with something apparently unknown to me: a product named 'sandpaper'.

Here I should add that this was in New Jersey, across the river from Philly---where unsolicited comments are often, shall we say, 'direct'.

Man, I was crushed!  (Not nearly as 'crushed', however, as the Ring' itself when I gave it full Up on takeoff, wondered why the lines were slack, watched it disappear behind me then heard the sickening 'Thump'.)  But the guys then became supportive.  That is: their laughter became a bit more restrained.  And they repeated their advice about that as-yet-undiscovered tool when I began the S-2 Yak-9 waiting at home:

Sandpaper.  Yeah, that's it...

[catdaddy]

Bruce, I feel your pain!  Going way back to '52 with this one:

Mike, Bruce
Those are certainly sad stories and any judge that would laugh at a beginners efforts is a prick and shouldn't be allowed to judge. What happened to you guys happened without appearance points, what makes you think this is going to happen at a contest with app. points?
Those things didn't seem to have discourage you from continuing with the hobby/sport.

Ty,
15 beginners at Brodaks this past year and not one 12 year old. In fact only one Senior and all the rest were AMA open members.
I spent alot of time in the beginner pits because my sons were flying beginner. There were many planes that were very well constructed and finished regardless of what Bob W. says. I wish I'd thought to ask all the beginners how they would feel about having their efforts judged for app. points. Something tells me from what I saw the answer would be positive. I definetly plan to do so this weekend and encourage everyone else to poll your beginners at your contests. Let's see how the beginners feel.

Bob W.
Well I spend alot of time around beginners I'm assuming you do as well, although I never saw you in the beginner area at Brodak's.
How many beginners in your area anyway? I sure hope you can help them manage to get into the air, it's such a difficult thing to do. Of the 15 at Brodak's not a ONE had a problem of getting into the air and I would say most if not all completed the pattern. What we do is only extremely difficult if you're competing at the very top levels. Are some beginners nervous at a contest? Perhaps a few and perhaps at their very first one. If I were a beginner I'd find your attitude extremely condesending.

[catdaddy]

    I recall my first contest in Beginner, I got a 380 or so and just blew everybody else out of the water, and that was pretty much how it always was - range would be from 20-30 points (crash early on) to about 400. 
    Brett

WOW BRETT
Isn't the maximum beginner score 345 points? How did you manage 380?
I am glad that you think appearance points should return for beginner.

[Marvin Denny]

  I was not going to get involved in this discussion as I  (having been a beginner  once upon a time in ancient history) can see plusses AND minusses on both sides of the discussion. Back then there was NO beginner class only Junior, senior, and open classes.  The BOM was put in place to get away from "Daddy Built" and "Pro Built" planes from being put in the hands of juniors and thus put other juniors at a terrible disadvantage.  THERE WERE NO APPEARANCE POINTS IN THE RULE as there is none today EXCEPT in STUNT.  The appearance points were put in to "REWARD" those who built their own models (A requirement) by those who wanted it in stunt (no other BOM required event awards  such to my knowledge).
  So, the "appearance points"  are basically a reward for work performed by those who follow the rule that requires  such work. 
  Some more "history" is that nowhere in the BOM rule is there ANY requirement that the FINISH be applied by the builder.  It says " ... "up to and including the covering , where used..".  It always has been and still is and probably will always will be (at least as long as PAMPA is in general control of the rules)  silent on the application of the finish. I know of many (more than a handful) of  expert class fliers who have the finishes put on their planes by painting specialists.  I also know some of those specialists.


  REMEMBER    there is no requirement for the finish to be applied by the builder of the model.

 
  Bigiron

[Bruce Hautamaki]

   Catdaddy, I agree it didn't stop me from building more. I too learned about sandpaper then but someone should have told me they had more than just 80 grit paper! I got my inspiration from seeing Dave Platt's BF 109 museum scale plane that hung in Stanton's hobby for a while. Well anyway back on the subject. I do thinks it's a good idea to ask the beginners what they think, but what you will be missing are the votes from the guys or girls that have not entered yet. I got talked into entering my first contest because I could borrow Wallys plane and fly it and be even right from the start ( as far as points). Beginner should be just a way to get them involved. If you can get someone to enter you have a good chance they will stay involved. I hope you see my point or what I am trying to say. Again I don't see it hurting the event either way but it has worked so well so long why complicate it. Not having it gave me the push to enter. Just my two cents worth.


         Have fun, Bruce

[catdaddy]

   Catdaddy, I agree it didn't stop me from building more. I too learned about sandpaper then but someone should have told me they had more than just 80 grit paper! I got my inspiration from seeing Dave Platt's BF 109 museum scale plane that hung in Stanton's hobby for a while. Well anyway back on the subject. I do thinks it's a good idea to ask the beginners what they think, but what you will be missing are the votes from the guys or girls that have not entered yet. I got talked into entering my first contest because I could borrow Wallys plane and fly it and be even right from the start ( as far as points). Beginner should be just a way to get them involved. If you can get someone to enter you have a good chance they will stay involved. I hope you see my point or what I am trying to say. Again I don't see it hurting the event either way but it has worked so well so long why complicate it. Not having it gave me the push to enter. Just my two cents worth.


         Have fun, Bruce

Bruce,
I do see your point, I agree with Marvin, there are pros and cons to this just like everything else. I respect your opinion and appreciate your view. That being said and as much as I dislike the phrase we'll have to agree to disagree. I believe we will probably try this here in Tulsa at some point and we will let everyone know how it is received. As of now I feel the pros outweigh the cons.

[Dalton Hammett]

" What we do is only extremely difficult if you're competing at the very top levels. "[/quote]
****

     I don't understand this.  If you want youngsters in the 12 yr bracket to particapate you have to understand what they are confronted with - They don't have building talent and they are just learning how to fly.  In my opinion it would be easier for someone to move to Expert from Advanced than for a new flyer to go into beginner. They are trying something new as opposed to the Advanced flyer getting better at what he is doing.
      I agree with the "if it's not broke, don't fix it statement".  Our club is almost all beginners, it was started by
stunt flyers but people seem to be swaying toward racing.   You don't have to have the nicest looking  plane to
race.

    Dalton H.

[catdaddy]

" What we do is only extremely difficult if you're competing at the very top levels. "
****

     I don't understand this.  If you want youngsters in the 12 yr bracket to particapate you have to understand what they are confronted with - They don't have building talent and they are just learning how to fly.  In my opinion it would be easier for someone to move to Expert from Advanced than for a new flyer to go into beginner. They are trying something new as opposed to the Advanced flyer getting better at what he is doing.
      I agree with the "if it's not broke, don't fix it statement".  Our club is almost all beginners, it was started by
stunt flyers but people seem to be swaying toward racing.   You don't have to have the nicest looking  plane to
race.

    Dalton H.

How many 12 yr olds do you have in your club?

[Bill Little]

AP in Beginner?  All you have to do is announce and publicize it before hand.  See if it makes a difference. 

I, personally, don't believe there is any real reason for or against having AP in Beginner.  One exception:  I don't believe a Beginner should EVER get in a situation where AP would cost him/her a podium finish.  Well, maybe I do have a reason then!

Big Bear

[Patrick Rowan]

Why not let the beginners vote on it at the pilots meeting? After all it's their game.

[dave siegler]

How about this,

I understand that getting some appearance points might be positive feed back to a beginner, but this might even be better.

Sarcasm on
Every advanced, open and expert competitor gets 5 points for going over and telling the beginner what a good job he did. 

Sarcasm off


Really I think the experts should be doing this to further the hobby. 

I see too many guys that can just about fly the pattern stay in beginner too long.  Pretty airplane points might be another reason not to move up into int.

[Bob Whitely]

Here goes one more time.  Beginners shall not have a say as to how a contest is run as they have no background. That is why they are beginners.  Beginners shall not get nor should they receive APs' because they are beginners and have no background.  Beginners should receive all the   verbal  approval that is needed to keep them coming back and wanting to move up in the contest ladder.

Yes, I was a beginner in the early '50s' when all there was was JSO.  I know what it takes to get from there to here as I had to fly in the open class right from the gitgo.  Since there were appearance points I had to learn how to build, finish, paint and all the rest if  I wanted to win.  I did and I did.

As for helping beginners anyone remember Mike Duffy?  He was a beginner not too long ago and is now doing real well as an advanced flyer.  I am presently working on teaching an autistic kid how to fly our trainer.  So  yeah, I know about beginners.  And no, they do not get appearance points and they do not make the rules. If they did they would not be beginners.  RJ

[Trostle]

(clip)

As for helping beginners anyone remember Mike Duffy?  He was a beginner not too long ago and is now doing real well as an advanced flyer.  I am presently working on teaching an autistic kid how to fly our trainer.  So  yeah, I know about beginners.  And no, they do not get appearance points and they do not make the rules. If they did they would not be beginners.  RJ

Bob's comment deserves some amplification in response to Rick Blankenship's pointed jab that could be construed that Bob might not concern himself with beginners.  Mike Duffy is now 15 years old.  Over the past 3 years and with considerable guidance/help from Bob Whitely, Mike went from the Beginner category, through Intermediate and is now competitive here in the Southwest in the Advanced category against some stiff and serious competition.    Bob spent considerable time guiding Mike as Mike assembled his Nobler and then in getting that Nobler trimmed.  Mike made a good showing for himself in the Junior event at the Nats several years ago, with Bob helping Mike travel to the Nats and even for Mike to participate at that Nats.  Mike placed 32nd using that same Nobler at the last VSC in Classic against the 80 or so that flew.

Bob is always one of the first to step forward to help any flyer at the flying field to work out problems, either during practice sessions or at a contest.  One should not cast stones without knowing where he is standing.

Keith

[Jo Ann Keville]

GOOD FOR YOU KEITH, YOU ARE RIGHT ON THERE. BOB WHITELY IS ONE OF THE NICEST AND MOST HELPFUL PEOPLE I HAVE EVER MET AND I SEEM TO HAVE MET A GOOD NUMBER OF MODELERS OVER THE YEARS AT VSC AND HAVE SEEN FIRST HAND, MR. WHITLEY'S HELPFUL ATTITUDE.
JO ANN KEVILLE

[Mike Keville]

Ditto.  What HE (and SHE) said.

mk

[Dick Fowler]

Here goes one more time.  Beginners shall not have a say as to how a contest is run as they have no background. That is why they are beginners.  Beginners shall not get nor should they receive APs' because they are beginners and have no background.  Beginners should receive all the   verbal  approval that is needed to keep them coming back and wanting to move up in the contest ladder.

SNIP

Wow, I had this visual of the above being written on clay tablets by lighting bolts,... somewhere on a mountain top!

So why can't beginners have any say about their part of the contest? Isn't it their little piece of the world? Who better to have a say than those directly affected? The above statements defy logic

[ray copeland]

I believe there is a flaw in this logic when we are assuming or desperately hoping that all beginners are 12 years old.

[Steve Helmick]

After all the Beginners get to scope out their competitor's planes is maybe not the best time for them to vote on whether to allow AP's, regardless of age.  They might just think one way or the other would give them some advantage...not a good idea. If there is going to be any voting by any contestants about how the contest will be run, it has to be publicized well in advance (45 days?). Basically, I don't think contestants should be voting on anything. Pay the fees and have fun, help if you can, and smile.  Steve

[john e. holliday]

I see this is still going on.  I agree about Bob Whitely being one fine gentleman.  He will answer your questions and help you as long as you listen and do what he says wether your a beginner or even in advanced.  Why put the other beginners that don't build/finish at a disadvantage with appearance points?   Most I have met love to fly, but, do not care to build yet or don't have the time.  Let alone the finances.  Having fun with two crashed planes after last weekend.  DOC Holliday

[catdaddy]

One should not cast stones without knowing where he is standing.
Keith

Good advice Mr Trostle. I wish you and others would follow it as well.
I'm sure Bob wasn't nearly as offended as you and others were.
His skin is as thick as mine...we touched on that in person at Brodak's this past year.

[catdaddy]

 Most I have met love to fly, but, do not care to build yet or don't have the time.  Let alone the finances.  Having fun with two crashed planes after last weekend.  DOC Holliday

And probably could care less if someone in their class recieved points for building a model.

It was good to see you and your grandaughter I forgot to ask her how she would feel about getting points for something she might build. Perhaps you could ask her for me, I'd like to know what she thinks.

[FLOYD CARTER]

First, how do you define "beginner"?  The past couple years has seen a few new members in our C/L club.  Beginner, yes.  But they are all modelers with sometimes a lot of building experience, only either new to C/L or "retreads".

I suppose, somewhere, there are a few 'teen-agers struggling to get their first plane in the air, without help from another modeler.  More likely, a young person would become interested in C/L by watching other more experienced flyers. 

It is a credit to our hobby that most C/L flyers are happy to assist a new or young person.

My first few models, at age 11, were pretty crude, but I eventually improved (I think) because I wanted my models to at least equal those of my more experienced friends.

Therefore, I'm in favor of appearance points for all classes of stunt.

Floyd