Appearance points

[John Skukalek]

Could someone please explain how appearance points play into the Nats scoring? Are they added to each flight?

[Dave_Trible]

Could someone please explain how appearance points play into the Nats scoring? Are they added to each flight?

Yes the appearance score is added to the bottom of each score sheet.

Dave

[Tim Wescott]

I have a follow-on question.  I think I know the answer, but I haven't gotten a chance to go to the Nats, so I'm only almost sure.

Per the rules the appearance points are determined once, before the first flight.  Then you get the same appearance points through the rest of the contest unless the airplane is involved in a crash, at which point the appearance is re-judged and that's what you get for subsequent flights.

Am I correct that this is how it's done at the Nationals?

[Crist Rigotti]

Yes

[John Skukalek]

If there is an unrepairable crash, can a substitute airplane be used?

[Ken Culbertson]

 

Yes the appearance score is added to the bottom of each score sheet.

Dave

Most of the time anyway, long story.

Ken

[Dave_Trible]

I have a follow-on question.  I think I know the answer, but I haven't gotten a chance to go to the Nats, so I'm only almost sure.

Per the rules the appearance points are determined once, before the first flight.  Then you get the same appearance points through the rest of the contest unless the airplane is involved in a crash, at which point the appearance is re-judged and that's what you get for subsequent flights.

Am I correct that this is how it's done at the Nationals?

I've never seen that happen.  One score, the original score is used for the whole contest.  In the event an airplane is damaged seriously,  and the contestant convinces the Event Director it cannot be repaired to flyable condition before the pilot's next round flight,(cosmetics not considered)  a second airplane can be processed and assigned an appearance score so the pilot can continue.  We did this with a Junior contestant two or three years ago.  In real-world terms, at the Nats,  your chances of picking up a second airplane mid-round and being competitive with it to complete the contest are quite small.  Where a back up ship makes sense (to me) is if you have a major problem during practice BEFORE the contest starts and if you can adapt yourself quickly to the second airplane then maybe.  Once the Appearance Judging is over you have to play the hand you are dealt.
FAI is slightly different.  There, you are allowed to process TWO airplanes (no appearance scored) and use either or both at will.  Again few do that but it has paid off for me at the last trials-although I didn't expect great end results I did get to complete my flying after cracking the wings of my first ship in practice.

Dave

[Brett Buck]

Per the rules the appearance points are determined once, before the first flight.  Then you get the same appearance points through the rest of the contest unless the airplane is involved in a crash, at which point the appearance is re-judged and that's what you get for subsequent flights.

Am I correct that this is how it's done at the Nationals?

    If you crash your airplane and rebuild it/fly it, you get the *original* appearance points. This has happened several times, Bob Hunt at the 76 NATs, and one I witnessed, Mike Pratt at Lubbock in 94*.

     If you have to replace your airplane, it gets judged for appearance on its own.

    Brett

*a classic panic rebuild. This was in Lubbock, TX, in July. There were maybe 20 people in Mikes room, doors were left open, and I went over there once, and the epoxy smell (not to mention some other smells...) damn near knocked me out. They got it back together, he flew it, qualified, and he and I tied for 15th place. I note that *mine* was also crashed shortly before the NATs, also rebuilt (new wing and many repairs, and monokote and paint in a day and a half), including painting the canopy on witha  brush in the parking lot at appearance judging. Dope dries really quick when it's 105 degrees and 5% humidity.

    Mike's airplane was a really nice one, he had gotten 18 points, so he carried that through. Mine got 15 points, which is one of the higher-scoring Monokote jobs.

[John Skukalek]

Enjoyed your story Brett.

[MikeyPratt]

Brett is right,
The down lead-out snapped just before entering the overhead eights, at level flight it went nearly straight in, you wouldn’t believe it would turn that tight but it did and exploded on impact.  I swept every piece that I could (there were many parts).  On my way back to the motel room I was thinking what do I have I could fly as a back-up, I had with me was my polywog Veco Chief Fox .35, and my OTS Yates Dragon, again powered with an even older Gold case Fox .35.  Even though they both flew quite well, they were not going to handle the winds in Texas.

I knew I had to get it repaired somehow.  Sam Schjoritta went to two hobby shops and he must have bought whatever he could find, glass, epoxy, ca glue, some balsa.  The Super Dave was not heavy at 62 ounces at 720 sq inches of wing area.  As I was looking at the mess I had on my hands, the room started filling up with people wanting to help, I wish I could remember all of them, there were so many helping.  Ted, Paul, Windy, Dave, Sam, Bobby, McMillian and many more.  The Super Dave received 19 appearance points, it was a really nice model.  I was escorted out of the room and taken to the bar while repair work continued on Super Dave.

As Randy Smith checked out the OPS .40, header, and pipe, they were fine, the Bolly 3 blade and spinner were toast.  I would have never finished the repair if it hadn’t been for all their help, Stunt Flyers are the Absolute Best People in The World.  After all of that, I finished 15thaq tied with Brett.  Super Dave now weighs a portly 75 ounces but it finished the Nat’s.  And Paul Walker Gave me memento for that Nat’s. The pilot bust that was in Super Dave was now glued to the bill of my hat.  Thanks Paul, aI still haveit.

Never Give Up
Mike Pratt

PS. One of the appearance Judges told me it would have earned 20 if I hadn’t installed one of the wheel pants on missaligned after cleaning it up for A/P.

[Frank Imbriaco]

Way back, up to 40 points were awarded.

[Trostle]

If there is an unrepairable crash, can a substitute airplane be used?

From the rule book:

"2.3

Contestants will be allowed the use of a second model if the first is damaged or destroyed.  Appearance points will be awarded to the second model following verification of substantial damage to the first model.  The second model and it appearance points will be used for subsequent attempts."

[John Skukalek]

That's interesting Keith. The standard required is "substantial damage" not "unflyable".

[Brett Buck]

That's interesting Keith. The standard required is "substantial damage" not "unflyable".

   I think that is parsing it a bit too much, the idea is to give someone who had an issue a chance to recover and have a good contest, not to punish a mistake or an accident.

     Brett

[Ken Culbertson]

Is there any thread here that goes into the why we went from 40 to 20 appearance points?  Personally I think dropping realism and originality was a mistake.  Granted we needed better definitions for the judges but I think dropping them has made our planes far too generic in appearance.  Can anyone point to a place in the rules or judges guide defining just what "appearance" really is.

Ken

[Paul Smith]

Way back, up to 40 points were awarded.

In the 40-point days there was a 16-point minimum, so only 24 points were actually in play.  Not so much different than 20.

Back then, builders really worked for the difference between 16 & 40, just like now.

[Russell Graves]

How much of the plane do you need to build to qualify as Builder Of the Model and get the appearance points? 

[Brett Buck]

How much of the plane do you need to build to qualify as Builder Of the Model and get the appearance points?

   The requirements are in the rule book, more-or-less, you can have some partially per-fabricated components but, essentially you have to "completely construct" and finish your model.

     Brett

[Frank Imbriaco]

In the 40-point days there was a 16-point minimum, so only 24 points were actually in play.  Not so much different than 20.

Back then, builders really worked for the difference between 16 & 40, just like now.

Yeah, and  I'll wager very few sub 10 pointers awarded since the change.

[Clint Ormosen]

Yeah, and  I'll wager very few sub 10 pointers awarded since the change.

Probably true. But I did fly a 8 point Banshee for a few contests in my early days.🙄

[Dave_Trible]

Yeah, and  I'll wager very few sub 10 pointers awarded since the change.

I too sort of long for the 40 point days in that they awarded new designs and semi scale airplanes much more and stimulated designers.  However I can see the point of putting more emphasis on piloting skills and flying in a PA event and a little less on a beauty contest where that in itself could become the winning issue in what is really more of a sporting event.  Even so when a Top 5 (or 10) point spread can be as little as 5-8 points,  even one or two points on the 'Concours floor' can make or break you. More so when scores of multiple flights are added together for a final score.

Dave

[katana]

I wonder how things would change (if at all) if appearance scores were not added till AFTER all flight scores were in ie. NO ONE knew them (except judges) until?