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Author Topic: Appearance Points  (Read 9687 times)

Offline Dennis Moritz

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Appearance Points
« on: June 27, 2021, 07:55:07 AM »
It's my impression that fit and finish are the criteria for awarding appearance points. In other words a common kit model finished in a single color could potentially receive the same points as a comparatively original design with an elaborate color scheme. Am I missing something?

Online Dave_Trible

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2021, 08:33:15 AM »
In a purely technical matter you are correct.  The working terms are "workmanship" and "finish".  However since the judges are typically modelers themselves with their own tastes and types of things that appeal to them even sub consciencely,  you can't guess an outcome.  This MIGHT have been some of the reason the value of the appearance score was reduced from 40 points to 20 points some time back.  The point spread from 'perfect' to above average is usually less than five points.  Flying a couple maneuvers just a tad better makes up the difference and may be worth saving a few 'finish' ounces of weight. (IMHO)

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Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2021, 08:54:29 AM »
Yes. Workmanship. Better term

Offline phil c

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2021, 07:11:17 PM »
"finish" includes the design of the paint scheme.  Even a modest color scheme design would score better than a single solid color, perhaps with the pilot's name on it.

The design of the color scheme can get to overdone, crowded, poorly laid out etc.  That would detract from the "finish", along with pebbling, smears, wobbly straight lines that appear meant to be straight, curves that don't have pleasant execution-wobbly edges to no visible purpose,  lumps and bumps showing through the covering from construction faults, etc.
Like any piece of art, which what it is, it needs balance, layout, design, details, a coherent theme(you can't slap mixing decals for AMA, Airforce, US Navy, Army, the Eiffel Tower, the Russian flag,  The US flag, and others, random insignia here and there.

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Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2021, 10:54:03 PM »
First time I heard about that Phil. Some plain designs got 19. Is this a correct elaboration of the quality of finish criteria?

Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2021, 10:56:43 PM »
To those who think appearance points are moot, check out the top 5 scores.

Offline John Rist

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2021, 09:07:53 AM »
"finish" includes the design of the paint scheme.  Even a modest color scheme design would score better than a single solid color, perhaps with the pilot's name on it.

The design of the color scheme can get to overdone, crowded, poorly laid out etc.  That would detract from the "finish", along with pebbling, smears, wobbly straight lines that appear meant to be straight, curves that don't have pleasant execution-wobbly edges to no visible purpose,  lumps and bumps showing through the covering from construction faults, etc.
Like any piece of art, which what it is, it needs balance, layout, design, details, a coherent theme(you can't slap mixing decals for AMA, Airforce, US Navy, Army, the Eiffel Tower, the Russian flag,  The US flag, and others, random insignia here and there.

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To be sure I don't have a dog in the fight because I will never be in a stunt competition that has appearance point (I am too old).  The problem is appearance points are some one's opinion.   I used to do wedding photography.  Some of my best work was hated by the customer.  Some of my worst got rave revues.  I don't have a solution for the problem.  Any time you have a score dependent on a matter of opinion you will have a difference of  opinions.  A contestant has two choices. Accept the opinion of the judges knowing it is an opinion, or don't compete. A third option is become the judge.  Then your opinion is the only one that counts!  LL~   D>K
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2021, 09:28:36 AM »
To those who think appearance points are moot, check out the top 5 scores.

   It has never been, and as far as I know, no one has ever claimed it was, moot in the Top 5. That is *as intended*, that was the goal, that is why we have appearance points. We would not have them if they did not make a difference. The recent trend toward a larger score range in the flyoff has led to a few discussions about increasing the appearance points (to 30 or 40) to make sure it still makes a difference.

     They are moot in local PAMPA competition, aside from a few hotbed areas. The range of scores in these contests is such that you can *easily* overcome a few points simply by spending the time you freed up not building your own airplane to practice and trimming better. This is also *by design* - before there were the accursed ARFs and RTFs, there were OPPs - other people's airplanes. The PAMPA rules were designed to permit borrowing airplanes to fly, which *could not be done* before. If  you didn't have an airplane you built yourself, you were a spectator.

    Brett
 
   

Offline Shorts,David

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2021, 09:45:55 AM »
Counting myself as a newcomer, relatively speaking. I keep reading and applying what I read from my venerable elders in PA (yes, you Brett). This applies to appearance points. Fortunately, as Brett points out, at local competitions there is a small change due to appearance points. And, as a new comer, I was delighted to have beaten my dad at VSC two years ago on flight score, just not on the scoreboard because I was borrowing another person's plane.  After all, neither of us were taking home hardware.

However, it did get me wanting to revisit the building board to rectify this for future situations. This is part of the sport which I delightfully accept as the next challenge, because I suck at painting. I have several akromasters and other such ilk which I built for the sole purpose of figuring out how to put monocote or fabric on a wing, how to paint and sand, etc. And just like going out and practicing fifteen foot pullouts from wingovers, I mean, five foot pullouts, I too must practice how much primer, how much paint, how much clear coat, etc., and practice I shall.

If I didn't like it, I'd stick with borrowed planes, but I DO like it. What fun is a hobby you master in ten years?

David

p.s. I just watched the beginning of my nats video where people stood in line with such a wide variety of hand crafted aircraft waiting to be judged. For some competitors, THIS IS THE NATS--Presenting your personally labored over aircraft for judging. I tried to imagine everyone standing around with nearly identically molded aircraft coming from somewhere else, with only variations in color schemes. That would just be stupid.

Just listen to modern pop music where songs are crapped out from song writing factories, given to artists, and have no depth or soul. Do you like it? Or would you take, "God only Knows," by the Beach Boys and Brian Wilson? Point being, you can fly somebody else's planes and have a lot of fun, but it isn't a hobby anymore. Europe needs to move into the past which is really the future. Because even with its faults, appearance points make this a true hobby and discipline.

Offline Shorts,David

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2021, 10:09:17 AM »
But one other thought regarding Concours d'elegance. It would be great if in someway, planes were not arranged into rows for concours judging, although this would take more time. But, point being, I believe contestants are subliminally predisposed to vote for front row planes for concours. That isn't quite right.

Offline Derek Barry

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2021, 06:46:37 PM »
But one other thought regarding Concours d'elegance. It would be great if in someway, planes were not arranged into rows for concours judging, although this would take more time. But, point being, I believe contestants are subliminally predisposed to vote for front row planes for concours. That isn't quite right.

Sorry, but you are incorrect.  I personally own two planes that won concours awards from the second row. Most pilots have decided who they plan on voting for, before appearance judging even begins. (So final placement is pretty irrelevant) Many others vote for their own plane every year. It usually comes down to 2 planes that have 10-15 votes each. The winner and 2nd place are usually pretty close.

Derek

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2021, 06:58:29 PM »
But one other thought regarding Concours d'elegance. It would be great if in someway, planes were not arranged into rows for concours judging, although this would take more time. But, point being, I believe contestants are subliminally predisposed to vote for front row planes for concours. That isn't quite right.

Well, maybe, but usually I have decided long before we get to appearance judging, and the only thing the lineup does for me is maybe draw attention to an airplane I had overlooked or hadn't been at the field.   

     Brett

Offline Shorts,David

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2021, 07:34:13 PM »
Sorry, but you are incorrect.  I personally own two planes that won concours awards from the second row. Most pilots have decided who they plan on voting for, before appearance judging even begins. (So final placement is pretty irrelevant) Many others vote for their own plane every year. It usually comes down to 2 planes that have 10-15 votes each. The winner and 2nd place are usually pretty close.

Derek

Okay, fair enough. The plane I was considering to vote for, I didn't vote for because it may have been a third row plane, so I gave into the peer pressure of first two rows. Next time I'll stick with my gut.

Offline fred cesquim

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2022, 03:34:56 AM »
where can i get the set of rules for appearance points?
looking forward to do something similar here in brazil

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2022, 08:25:21 AM »
It's my impression that fit and finish are the criteria for awarding appearance points. In other words a common kit model finished in a single color could potentially receive the same points as a comparatively original design with an elaborate color scheme. Am I missing something?

     Yes, I would say you are missing quite a bit.

    A nicely finished model that is multicolored, with some ink line detail, some air brush work and a detailed cockpit SHOULD get more points than a nicely finished model that is one solid color with no other detailing. More work and imagination is involved. One guy went only so far and then quit, while the other guy kept working and improving. To put them in the same row for the same score, or to even think about and suggest it, is incorrect and wrong. It is in the same vain as the instance of the superbly painted, detailed and weather F4F Wildcat that was given a low score one year because it wasn't shiny and the work involved in it's finish wasn't correctly accounted for. Just because a model that is smooth and shiny but only one color and no other details doesn't put it on the same level as one that had 3 colors, pin stripes, ink lines and a detailed cockpit. You have to make your model up to the standard required, not bring the standard down to your model.
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Offline John Rist

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2022, 09:10:46 AM »
If you think this sucks try building scale.  S?P
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Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2022, 09:44:19 AM »
where can i get the set of rules for appearance points?
looking forward to do something similar here in brazil
For AMA, this is it.

10. Appearance.
Models shall be judged for appearance complete and ready to fly. After model has
been judged, nothing will be removed from or added to the model which, in the
judges’ opinion, changes in any manner the appearance of the model from the
way it was when presented for appearance judging. However, during an attempt
for official flight after the contestant has begun to crank the engine, if it becomes
necessary to remove the propeller spinner for change of propeller, etc., then it is
permissible to leave off the spinner for that particular flight. Any damage to the
model after judging, or changes that may be made as a result of such damage, will
not be cause for loss of appearance points. Appearance judging will take place
just before contestant’s first flight. Judges shall exercise prudence in assigning
points, and reserve excellent point values for those models which are decidedly
above average.
Appearance (Minimum-0 Maximum-20)
10.1.
Appearance points are added to the contestant’s flight points for scoring
purposes.


Maybe someone else knows where there is more.

Good Luck - Ken
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Online Dave_Trible

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2022, 10:23:07 AM »
     Yes, I would say you are missing quite a bit.

    A nicely finished model that is multicolored, with some ink line detail, some air brush work and a detailed cockpit SHOULD get more points than a nicely finished model that is one solid color with no other detailing. More work and imagination is involved. One guy went only so far and then quit, while the other guy kept working and improving. To put them in the same row for the same score, or to even think about and suggest it, is incorrect and wrong. It is in the same vain as the instance of the superbly painted, detailed and weather F4F Wildcat that was given a low score one year because it wasn't shiny and the work involved in it's finish wasn't correctly accounted for. Just because a model that is smooth and shiny but only one color and no other details doesn't put it on the same level as one that had 3 colors, pin stripes, ink lines and a detailed cockpit. You have to make your model up to the standard required, not bring the standard down to your model.
   Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

   
Dan a few years ago I did not prevail in a discussion about how a hand rubbed dope finish (maybe 300 hours) should be worth a bit more than a spray on automotive coating or even monocote.  There isn’t really an “effort bonus”.  It’s more like just a snapshot in time with the current rules.

Dave

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Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2022, 01:11:43 PM »
Dan a few years ago I did not prevail in a discussion about how a hand rubbed dope finish (maybe 300 hours) should be worth a bit more than a spray on automotive coating or even monocote.  There isn’t really an “effort bonus”.  It’s more like just a snapshot in time with the current rules.

Dave

Dave


  Well, the "effort" is what augments any skill involved! With out any effort, the paint just lays there!! Shine don't come in a can. When you spray on the "easy " stuff, it still has to be sprayed on a substrate that has been properly sanded, processed and prepped, other wise it's just clear extra weight. To do a GOOD monokote job is a lot of work also! To do one that just looks decent is a lot of work! What lies underneath it is where the effort is there. Monokote won't cover up and hide laziness and poor fit ups and lack of craftsmanship. When the base is good, then the fun begins with the covering and that takes effort To not take into account and recognize the effort is stupid. You might as well allow manufactured models and finishes then, and we don't do that now. I guess it's just another sign of the times, where we are having trouble coming up with the proper personnel for appearance judging along with everything else. 
  Type at you later,
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Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2022, 04:04:35 PM »
Since the rule book doesn't tell us much, I thought appearance points are what you get for showing up. LL~
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Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2022, 04:35:54 PM »
I think one more aspect of appearance points should be part of this discussion.

Probably the single most influential event that (as a young barely teenager) convinced me that CLPA was going to be a significant part of my life was when a fella showed up at a meeting of a model building club for kids my brother Gary and I belonged to that was conducted for us by Boeing aircraft employees (the site was just a mile or so from the then major Boeing assembly plant at the Renton (Washington) Municipal Airport).

At one meeting a fella showed up with two of the most beautiful things I'd ever seen; two "stunt" ships (first I'd heard of that nomenclature).  One a magnificent Black Tiger with glorious dragon teeth on the nose just behind the propeller, the other a gorgeous ship I later learned was a Veco Thunderbird with a finish like fine China. 

The builder of those ships was a new Boeing guy out from "back East" named Bob Emmett who quickly became a significant part of my life and counseled me on all things "stunt."  From that day on I was hooked and determined someday to be able to create ships just half as beautiful as Bobs...and, hopefully fly them as well as did he.

I bring this up to initiate into this discussion the huge degree to which...for me and, I suspect, many others...craftsmanship and beauty were and are nearly as significant a part of the Stunt event as the "tricks" we put 'em thru in the air...be it at a local practice site or the field of competition.  To this day I remain convinced that, had such "devices" been available ready to fly off the shelf at Walgreen's, my love affair with the event and the airplanes themselves would never have taken root. 

I wanted to do what Bob Emmet did.

To this day it is my firm belief that the handful of appearance points available even before the lines are hooked up are worthy of that place in the competition.  The availability of multi thousand dollar examples of another's craftsmanship and artistry are a poor substitute for what that artistry from the hands of the pilot brings to the game.

In other words; IMHO, we diddle with them at our own risk.

Ted

Offline Brent Williams

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2022, 05:31:15 PM »
There aren't many kids attending model airplane clubs in every city all over the country to be influenced by the local masterful building and finishing.  They generally don't care and if they do...they don't care about the finish, good or bad.  They are the future of the hobby. 
There aren't many folks under 40 attending model airplane clubs in every city all over the country to be influenced by masterful building and finishing.  They don't care, or don't care that much about the airplane provenance or finish quality.  They are the future of the hobby.
There are a lot of current participants of the hobby that appreciate the effort involved, but don't care that much about the masterful building and finishing despite the historical norm.
There are a lot of current participants, that for a variety of reasons struggle with the building and finishing, allergy to fumes, dust, lack of space, time constraints, ect.
I don't think the sky would fall if BOM and appearance points just faded away.  The rising cadre just.does. not. care. about. it. at. all.
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #22 on: April 26, 2022, 05:35:19 PM »
Dan a few years ago I did not prevail in a discussion about how a hand rubbed dope finish (maybe 300 hours) should be worth a bit more than a spray on automotive coating or even monocote.  There isn’t really an “effort bonus”.  It’s more like just a snapshot in time with the current rules.

Go into your shop and make a Monocoat finish that's flawless enough to get 20 points at the Nats.  No wrinkles, no visible seams, no scuff marks, no light spots where the underlying adhesive was stretched, no dark spots where it significantly shrank, no wood grain showing through, etc., etc.

Let us know if it took you three hours or four.

Or 300.  Or if you managed it at all.

The world is waiting.
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #23 on: April 26, 2022, 05:39:31 PM »
I don't think the sky would fall if BOM and appearance points just faded away.  The rising cadre just.does. not. care. about. it. at. all.

  Which "rising cadre" is that?

     Brett

Offline Brent Williams

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #24 on: April 26, 2022, 05:41:09 PM »
  Which "rising cadre" is that?

     Brett

Exactly.
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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #25 on: April 26, 2022, 06:05:18 PM »
I agree with Ted Fancher’s view.  Without the craftsmanship aspect, stunt would be greatly diminished for me and many others.

Witness that there are many beautiful OTS models where no appearance pts exist

Frankly, my carrier ships get quality finishes and craftsmanship too.


Online Brett Buck

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #26 on: April 26, 2022, 06:11:12 PM »
Exactly.

  My point being, of course, is that at least now, you have an event that appeals to *someone*, actually a fair number of someones. Cheapening it will certainly drive out a lot of the current participants, on the vain hope that others will take their place.

   Brett

Offline Shorts,David

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #27 on: April 26, 2022, 11:37:08 PM »
There aren't many kids attending model airplane clubs in every city all over the country to be influenced by the local masterful building and finishing.  They generally don't care and if they do...they don't care about the finish, good or bad.  They are the future of the hobby. 
There aren't many folks under 40 attending model airplane clubs in every city all over the country to be influenced by masterful building and finishing.  They don't care, or don't care that much about the airplane provenance or finish quality.  They are the future of the hobby.
There are a lot of current participants of the hobby that appreciate the effort involved, but don't care that much about the masterful building and finishing despite the historical norm.
There are a lot of current participants, that for a variety of reasons struggle with the building and finishing, allergy to fumes, dust, lack of space, time constraints, ect.
I don't think the sky would fall if BOM and appearance points just faded away.  The rising cadre just.does. not. care. about. it. at. all.

This  :)!is a deeper dichotomy than some consider and has successfully existed for decades. It is that average new flier and even average intermediate guy fly planes that typically don't look that great. Even an advanced flier or two still haven't figured out the final stages of finishing (yours truly).  These planes attract more new fliers who see the hobby as accessible because the planes don't look that great. Eventually a few will go on to make beautiful models and inspire the middle echelon. The problem is if there are nothing but beautiful models at the local level, many absolutely pass on the hobby. But this has always been true.
As a child our local club was still active and filled with brush painted banshees, etc. There was one guy who had the amazing looking models (Arlie Preszler).
When I fly at Woodland Davis club, there are usually planes running the gamut from patched up ringmasters to Jim Aron's planes.
The problem only exists when you have newer fliers and nothing to make them feel welcomed by way of similar beginner finishes. Even the nats can be very humbling if you're in the back row with no company.
It's true in every pastime. A brushed banshee inspires the rookie. A front row finish may blow them away...
All that to say, there's no reason to get rid of BOM.

Offline fred cesquim

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #28 on: April 27, 2022, 04:22:21 AM »
This  :)!is a deeper dichotomy than some consider and has successfully existed for decades. It is that average new flier and even average intermediate guy fly planes that typically don't look that great. Even an advanced flier or two still haven't figured out the final stages of finishing (yours truly).  These planes attract more new fliers who see the hobby as accessible because the planes don't look that great. Eventually a few will go on to make beautiful models and inspire the middle echelon. The problem is if there are nothing but beautiful models at the local level, many absolutely pass on the hobby. But this has always been true.
As a child our local club was still active and filled with brush painted banshees, etc. There was one guy who had the amazing looking models (Arlie Preszler).
When I fly at Woodland Davis club, there are usually planes running the gamut from patched up ringmasters to Jim Aron's planes.
The problem only exists when you have newer fliers and nothing to make them feel welcomed by way of similar beginner finishes. Even the nats can be very humbling if you're in the back row with no company.
It's true in every pastime. A brushed banshee inspires the rookie. A front row finish may blow them away...
All that to say, there's no reason to get rid of BOM.
when i started this hobby what caught my attention was the shiny well finished planes on the hobby shops, immediatly i set my goal.
what would be more appealing for a newcomer: watching a flight with no loops, inverted fligts or wing-overs or a full pattern? one may think that a level uneventfull flight would be boring. when i fly C/L at my R/C filed jet pilots came around and says "that looks interesting and challenging, i thought C/L was just flying around a circle"
Seems people have different ways to face challenges. There´s a local filed near me with a culture of low quality finishes, it´s so strong that if you arrives with a well finished plane, people stay away from it not to be contaminated. I would love to have the BOM/appearance points kind of competition here in brazil, there is a few who would love to attend, and a lot who would not.
that´s what makes hobby interesting, the options and the personal goals
« Last Edit: April 27, 2022, 05:30:01 AM by fred cesquim »

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #29 on: April 27, 2022, 08:18:58 AM »
There aren't many kids attending model airplane clubs in every city all over the country to be influenced by the local masterful building and finishing.  They generally don't care and if they do...they don't care about the finish, good or bad.  They are the future of the hobby. 
There aren't many folks under 40 attending model airplane clubs in every city all over the country to be influenced by masterful building and finishing.  They don't care, or don't care that much about the airplane provenance or finish quality.  They are the future of the hobby.
There are a lot of current participants of the hobby that appreciate the effort involved, but don't care that much about the masterful building and finishing despite the historical norm.
There are a lot of current participants, that for a variety of reasons struggle with the building and finishing, allergy to fumes, dust, lack of space, time constraints, ect.
I don't think the sky would fall if BOM and appearance points just faded away.  The rising cadre just.does. not. care. about. it. at. all.


Y'know, this is a self-solving problem.  The rising cadre can just become the old guard, say "we don't care about appearance points", and lobby their local contest board member (or become their local contest board member) to remove appearance points and the BOM from stunt.  Done deal.

Or they can just organize meets that fly by FAI rules, and start using the Team Trials as their Nationals.  Done deal (unless you win, and don't actually want to go to furrin' parts and fly the next year).

On a different note:

Oh, I put so much effort into my first control line model intended for competition.  It was a Ringmaster, probably would have gotten between 14 and 16 points at a local contest (so, not too shiny, but three different colors, silkspan & dope).

Pulverized it on the first flight.  It never even got to land in one piece.

I've never talked to someone who expressed discouragement at people's pretty airplanes.  Everyone I've seen come up through the ranks starts with ratty planes, often ratty old other people's planes.
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Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #30 on: April 27, 2022, 09:33:23 AM »
Y'know, this is a self-solving problem.  The rising cadre can just become the old guard, say "we don't care about appearance points", and lobby their local contest board member (or become their local contest board member) to remove appearance points and the BOM from stunt.  Done deal.

Or they can just organize meets that fly by FAI rules, and start using the Team Trials as their Nationals.  Done deal (unless you win, and don't actually want to go to furrin' parts and fly the next year).

On a different note:

Oh, I put so much effort into my first control line model intended for competition.  It was a Ringmaster, probably would have gotten between 14 and 16 points at a local contest (so, not too shiny, but three different colors, silkspan & dope).

Pulverized it on the first flight.  It never even got to land in one piece.

I've never talked to someone who expressed discouragement at people's pretty airplanes.  Everyone I've seen come up through the ranks starts with ratty planes, often ratty old other people's planes.
I am in near 100% agreement with your take.  The more we debate this issue the more I become convinced that both sides are right and that is the textbook formula for doing nothing.  I missed the debates over the last two changes to the points, the dropping of the 40 and the combining of the 20 and I don't really understand either.  If you are going to have appearance as a category there should be some guidelines and balance between workmanship and finish.  I can get my brain around dropping realism and originality, but I think better definitions would have been better than dropping the categories all together.   I miss the detailed cockpits and flawless workmanship of the 60's and 70's.  I would suggest a rule change to quantify "Appearance" but that would require me to come up with a definition and no matter how I would try, it would be my subjective opinion.

Maybe some form of dual awards.  Most of the locals give an award for best appearance separate from the event standings.  Why not one for high flight score?  Just my thoughts.

Ken
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Offline Tom Luciano

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #31 on: April 27, 2022, 10:06:06 AM »
Interesting that people think the event won't grow because of BOM/Appearance points. There are very competitive ARF's available that will work at 99% of the contests in the country. Also, at the national's level except for open you can compete with a gifted/bought/ ARF airplane(0 appearance points). The 2 years I attended the Nats there were SV-11 Arf's/purchased aircraft in the top 10 in Advanced. Also, a 16 point airplane won open 3 years ago. It still is a flying comp in open and, if your good enough you can make the top 5 with a 14 point airplane. If You are commited enough to make the top 20 in open you have had the time to put in to practice. Building a airplane is a small fraction of that time commitment. 

My $.02

Tom
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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #32 on: April 27, 2022, 10:39:56 AM »
Remember we are talking about ONE contest per year. The NATS where BOM applies. If I am wrong let me know. If left up to me it would be ALL contests and 40 points. It should be worth at least one maneuver score not half MAX.
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Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #33 on: April 27, 2022, 12:51:53 PM »
The part of BOM that applies to the NATS is eligibility, not appearance.  I doubt that the BOM rule stops anybody from attending the NATS.  A week-long and 1500 miles away, now that keeps a lot of people from attending.   Appearance on the other hand is part of every contest.  It should be part of all events, not just PA.  I agree with Sparky that 40 points is a proper reward, but at that high figure it is also a death sentence.   If originality and realism no longer apply, then it really is workmanship and finish so why not define what that really means and maybe allow ARCs and restored OCCs in with a 10 point penalty?

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #34 on: April 27, 2022, 02:30:37 PM »
I feel 20 is a good number.  I know it takes a billion hours to finish a plane out the best it can be.  I have been lucky enough to be on the 2nd row before.  But 20 is a good amount for that portion of the event.

To get top points in that portion of the event you need to execute the attempted project with a high amount accuracy. I was told that once by an appearance judge at the nats. As long as the judges judge with that as the basis of their evaluation the color scheme, style, layout, model type, will have no bearing on it.  They cant judge on what "they like".  We don't build and finish based on what they "like" or prefer.  We build what we like and they judge on how well we executed the attempted project.

The BOM itself should NEVER be removed from Event 322 JSO. The BOM is what makes the event what it really is, an modeling contest. Having the appearance portion of the event enhances it even more so. To be competitive at the top of our discipline you have to be a well rounded modeler in all phases.

 
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Offline Frank Imbriaco

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #35 on: April 27, 2022, 05:02:57 PM »
Remember we are talking about ONE contest per year. The NATS where BOM applies. If I am wrong let me know. If left up to me it would be ALL contests and 40 points. It should be worth at least one maneuver score not half MAX.
I agree with the 40 Points.

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #36 on: April 27, 2022, 06:00:20 PM »

I don't think the sky would fall if BOM and appearance points just faded away.  The rising cadre just.does. not. care. about. it. at. all.


The sky wouldn't suddenly fill with stunt models either.  I would be willing to bet any amount of money that that there isnt a single soul IN the hobby currently, that has anywhere near the flying ability needed to make the top 20, let alone the top 5, and their obstacle is the BOM rule.  I would also be willing to bet that any that there isnt a soul on the planet who was super amped up about CL stunt until they heard about the BOM rule in Open at the Nat's.   The BOM rule is not the reason for the lack of newcomers and eliminating it will do absolutely nothing to draw beginners.  The argument against BOM is part of the hauteur that is CL stunt in general: that every single stunt flier has the end goal of hoisting the Walker Cup.  They don't.  I've flown several off-the-path contests throughout the country.  They are littered with flyers--some in the advanced and expert classes--who have no interest in flying in the Nat's, and that is perfectly fine.  The Nat's is a marriage-like commitment; one can't decide to go the week before and be successful.  Building and finishing one's own airplane is part of that commitment.

There isn't a single contest currently within a weekend drive to and from Colorado Springs, but I'm not on here whining, crying and complaining that someone needs to put on a contest here and everyone needs to jump in their cars and come out to fly in it.  That would be silly...


I am in near 100% agreement with your take.  The more we debate this issue the more I become convinced that both sides are right and that is the textbook formula for doing nothing.

     Both sides are right, and examples of both sides currently exist. 

Every stunt event in the country BUT the Nat's (to my knowledge) allows models that aren't BOM legal, and the inclusion of appearance points is at the discretion of the contest director.  I've flown quite a few contests over the years that omitted appearance points.  As Brett mentioned, practice can overcome a lack of appearance points but, in my own humble opinion: there is absolutely no reason that anyone concerned with appearance points can't build their own airplane.  There are no indoor CL contests in the winter months to take up building time.  A monokoted Sig Twister can be thrashed together in a week or less and can put a few appearances points up on the board. If you want appearance points, then build.  If you want to fly sooner, than buy.  You can pick your friends and you can pick your nose, but you can't pick your friend's nose.

Then there's the Nat's and, well, it's the Nat's.  It's the apex of CLPA in the US, and BOM and appearance points is part of the event at that level.  There's a reason you dont see figure skaters skating at the olympics in sweatpants and a hoodie.  Presentation is part of figure skating.  It's the same thing with appearance points in Event 322.  It's part of the event.


  Why not one for high flight score?  Just my thoughts.

Ken

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #37 on: April 27, 2022, 06:16:53 PM »
*this is for laughs...don't freak out*

One should propose that THE builder of the model should be judged on his/her appearance as well, if the artistry and pageantry is part of being a complete modeler.  Break out the botox, hair dye and start with the ab crunches.  Winter building is about building muscle and making balsa dust, bro!
 Bring back the sabre dance whipping routines of flying the pattern while dressed the white polyester pants and nurses shoes.  All this should be worth 40 points too!   ;D
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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #38 on: April 27, 2022, 06:37:52 PM »
*this is for laughs...don't freak out*

One should propose that THE builder of the model should be judged on his/her appearance as well, if the artistry and pageantry is part of being a complete modeler.  Break out the botox, hair dye and start with the ab crunches.  Winter building is about building muscle and making balsa dust, bro!
 Bring back the sabre dance whipping routines of flying the pattern while dressed the white polyester pants and nurses shoes.  All this should be worth 40 points too!   ;D

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Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #39 on: April 27, 2022, 07:26:23 PM »
Interesting that people think the event won't grow because of BOM/Appearance points. There are very competitive ARF's available that will work at 99% of the contests in the country. Also, at the national's level except for open you can compete with a gifted/bought/ ARF airplane(0 appearance points). The 2 years I attended the Nats there were SV-11 Arf's/purchased aircraft in the top 10 in Advanced. Also, a 16 point airplane won open 3 years ago. It still is a flying comp in open and, if your good enough you can make the top 5 with a 14 point airplane. If You are commited enough to make the top 20 in open you have had the time to put in to practice. Building a airplane is a small fraction of that time commitment. 

My $.02

Tom


      There is quite a bit of truth here and I agree with Tom 100%. It's still all the same old arguments by a very small minority about one event that none of them attend. Then attracting and bringing in new blood gets brought up and the focus is put on kids. When kids are brought into the picture it is like having one foot nailed to the floor, things just go in circles back to the original starting point. We have an event that is pretty well defined and has been refined over the years to be as inclusive as possible to get new blood involved. You can't hold a gun to someone's head and make them like model airplanes of any kind. When you do get some kids involved, what happens to them? You can probably count the number of Junior and Senior Class entrants at the NATS since the year 2000 on both hands. And where did they end up?  Only two have posted to this thread. It takes a certain type of person to be "One of Us." It takes a certain "thing" in their DNA that draws them into this hobby and keeps them there. They are getting fewer and fewer, but there are still some out there. They may not even know what control line is, let alone what CLPA is, and all we can do is keep putting it out there for people to find and discover. The event is plenty inclusive enough to get them involved at a local level and get them started. Getting to the NATS level is just a matter of time and practice and knowing what you need to do to get to the pinnacle of the event. You can beg, borrow and steal models to get to that point and then you need to build and finish ONE model airplane, for ONE class at ONE event to get to the top.. Name any other event, hobby or endeavor where it is easy or even meant to be easy? Hell, even Golf is a game that you never really win, you just play to see who gets the lowest score. What we have in our event is really a pretty good thing. I have spent the better part of this winter digitizing Windy videos and watching quite a few of them It's been fun seeing some of the old familiar faces that we don't have with us any longer. These are the people that help put together what we have here and now. Those of us still haunting this planet and still involved with the event in any manor have a lot more runway behind us than we have in front of us. I think what we have in this event is solid and can last past us into the future if there are still people willing to do some of the work necessary to keep it going. Tearing anything down or breaking anything up in a feeble attempt to 'improve" things will just seal it's fate to dry up and blow away.
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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #40 on: April 27, 2022, 09:59:09 PM »
Remember we are talking about ONE contest per year. The NATS where BOM applies. If I am wrong let me know. If left up to me it would be ALL contests and 40 points. It should be worth at least one maneuver score not half MAX.

Brodak has BOM for advanced and expert, pretty sure some of the big west coast contests do as well.
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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #41 on: April 27, 2022, 10:26:12 PM »
Brodak has BOM for advanced and expert, pretty sure some of the big west coast contests do as well.

   No. All the contests that I know about in the USA use PAMPA classes, which has no BOM, you lose appearance points for not building your own airplane, but you can certainly enter and compete.

   Brett

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #42 on: April 27, 2022, 10:34:23 PM »
   No. All the contests that I know about in the USA use PAMPA classes, which has no BOM, you lose appearance points for not building your own airplane, but you can certainly enter and compete.

   Brett

From the Brodak flyer:

Quote
Precision Aerobatics (1st Flight)
Four Classes…Beginner - Intermediate - Advanced - Expert (all ages combined)
BOM & Appearance Points for Advanced & Expert Models Only
Jr-Sr Trophies Awarded Separately in PA only

https://brodak.com/PDF/2022_Flyin_Brochure.pdf

Perhaps they mean that you only get the points if you are the BOM? But either way, BOM is "applied" in some respect.
And perhaps that is what Sparky meant when he said:
Quote
where BOM applies

If you don't get points then BOM "applies", but is not disqualifying. Two different things.

Not taking a position on either side of this, just trying to make sure everyone is on the same set of facts.
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #43 on: April 27, 2022, 11:15:38 PM »

Not taking a position on either side of this, just trying to make sure everyone is on the same set of facts.

     Indeed.

     The Builder of the Model Rule is a rule that *does not permit someone to fly an airplane that they did not build* (AMA Event 322, J/S/O)

     Skill Class Aerobatics (AMA Events 323-326) AKA Pampa Classes *permits someone to fly an airplane they did not build*  but does not award appearance points for models not built by the pilot. BOM does not apply, in fact, the entire scheme was specifically designed to give a rules alternative permitting people to borrow airplanes from others to add participation, while still rewarding people for their modeling craftsmanship skill.

     Virtually all contest in the USA, and in particular, all the "big west coast contests" (and all the little ones, too) use the PAMPA classes, event 323-326, there is no BOM in those classes. 

    Some contests in the East apparently use the PAMPA Classes, but also have a special rule that also does not award appearance points, which is a real shame. So, read the contest sanction papers and see what special rules apply.

    The Brodak contest is something I haven't and probably won't participate in (if for no other reason that it is 2800 miles away), they have completely independent rules that they come up with themselves. So, that not be "a contest I would know about" .

   The BOM as a concept is not in any way hard to grasp, and Skill Class Aerobatics are also, conceptually straightfoward. Neither is going to go away, time after time, in every possible way, 80ish percent of the participants want to keep it. And, in real life at contests, I have spent at total of about 3 minutes in 40ish years talking about it.

    Brett

     

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #44 on: April 28, 2022, 03:20:44 AM »
The design of the color scheme can get to overdone, crowded, poorly laid out etc.  That would detract from the "finish", along with pebbling, smears, wobbly straight lines that appear meant to be straight, curves that don't have pleasant execution-wobbly edges to no visible purpose,  lumps and bumps showing through the covering from construction faults, etc.

I take it you've seen my new airplane. 
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #45 on: April 28, 2022, 03:26:39 AM »
The builder of those ships was a new Boeing guy out from "back East" named Bob Emmett who quickly became a significant part of my life and counseled me on all things "stunt."  From that day on I was hooked and determined someday to be able to create ships just half as beautiful as Bobs...and, hopefully fly them as well as did he.

I was similarly in awe of the stunt planes I saw at the 1962 Nats.  I planned to get around to stunt someday.  That day came when I read your first magazine column, where you mentioned your mentor Bob Emmett.  "Hey," I thought, "I know Bob Emmett.  Between him and that new guy in town Walker, I'll bet I could learn stunt."
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Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #46 on: April 28, 2022, 07:02:04 AM »
Somehow this thread has drifted off into the BOM black hole.  Any chance of getting back to the intent of how we award those 20 points?  Here is all I can find in the rules:

"Judges shall exercise prudence in assigning points, and reserve excellent point values for those models which are decidedly above average."

Appearance has near the weight of any of the maneuvers, yet you have no control over it since every judge is free to determine what he/she considers average and where that number is in the scope of things. What does a zero look like?  What does a 20?  What gets extra points, what is simply expected?

Ken



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Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #47 on: April 28, 2022, 07:15:13 AM »
     Indeed.

     The Builder of the Model Rule is a rule that *does not permit someone to fly an airplane that they did not build* (AMA Event 322, J/S/O)

     Skill Class Aerobatics (AMA Events 323-326) AKA Pampa Classes *permits someone to fly an airplane they did not build*  but does not award appearance points for models not built by the pilot. BOM does not apply, in fact, the entire scheme was specifically designed to give a rules alternative permitting people to borrow airplanes from others to add participation, while still rewarding people for their modeling craftsmanship skill.

     Virtually all contest in the USA, and in particular, all the "big west coast contests" (and all the little ones, too) use the PAMPA classes, event 323-326, there is no BOM in those classes. 

    Some contests in the East apparently use the PAMPA Classes, but also have a special rule that also does not award appearance points, which is a real shame. So, read the contest sanction papers and see what special rules apply.

    The Brodak contest is something I haven't and probably won't participate in (if for no other reason that it is 2800 miles away), they have completely independent rules that they come up with themselves. So, that not be "a contest I would know about" .

   The BOM as a concept is not in any way hard to grasp, and Skill Class Aerobatics are also, conceptually straightfoward. Neither is going to go away, time after time, in every possible way, 80ish percent of the participants want to keep it. And, in real life at contests, I have spent at total of about 3 minutes in 40ish years talking about it.

    Brett

     

I have entered The Brodak many times.  They run Stunt by "The Book" all the way.  In advanced and expert stunt the models are lined-up on the lawn and judged by the same group of judges.  What could be fairer and clearer?
Paul Smith

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #48 on: April 28, 2022, 07:20:36 AM »
I agree with the 40 Points.

Back in the day there was a 16-point FLOOR to the 40 points, so only 24 points were on the table.  So now it's 20 points.  The net difference is only 4 points.

The thing is that in the past you had to either actually build the model or get by with lying that you built it.  Now you just forfit part of 20 points.
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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #49 on: April 28, 2022, 09:46:25 AM »
I have entered The Brodak many times.  They run Stunt by "The Book" all the way.  In advanced and expert stunt the models are lined-up on the lawn and judged by the same group of judges.  What could be fairer and clearer?

    Seems straightforward - but I also know that they also have had a variety of rules over the years, which has led to great confusion on occasion. In one particular incident over *exactly* what is being confused (or obfuscated) in this thread.

    Brett

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #50 on: April 28, 2022, 10:06:27 AM »
How do you factor in foam wings/foam flaps and foam elevator, made by someone else?
And what about lazer cut kits?

Shouldn't we all be cutting out from plans?

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #51 on: April 28, 2022, 10:26:14 AM »
Appearance has near the weight of any of the maneuvers, yet you have no control over it since every judge is free to determine what he/she considers average and where that number is in the scope of things. What does a zero look like?  What does a 20?  What gets extra points, what is simply expected?

Ken
[/quote]

And how is that different than the flight scores. Both are subjective evaluations.

20 points is 1/2 of a maneuver score. I don't consider it "near". I agree with Sparky, bring back 40 points!

But will all of this discussion make any difference...no!

The original question was about how it is judged. Trying to define a set of guidelines that can be used is a difficult task. The current rule that specify how much can be purchased and how much has to be done by the pilot is a compromise that was finally voted into the rules. The question of who built what on the model is very difficult to get agreement on. The foam wing is an example. The pilot didn't build it, but was generally accepted as being BOM legal. The current rules define what is acceptable in that area.  The finish is another story. How do you put objective rules on such a subjective evaluation.

The appearance score is a giant can of worms. Good luck trying to put objective guidelines on that one.

FWIW, I won most of my Nat's while scoring only 17 points.  That was my goal for many years. I figured I would make that up in the first maneuver or two. In other words,  it never bothered me. In fact it inspired me to work harder at flying. Maybe some should take that attitude.


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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #52 on: April 28, 2022, 10:28:12 AM »
Somehow this thread has drifted off into the BOM black hole.  Any chance of getting back to the intent of how we award those 20 points?  Here is all I can find in the rules:

    Yes, inexplicably a troll post about BOM drew a lot of responses. Particularly this one, which sat with no responses for the better part of a year. Fred revived it with a reasonable question- and then it, wonder of wonders, turned into yet another BOM flamefest.


Quote
"Judges shall exercise prudence in assigning points, and reserve excellent point values for those models which are decidedly above average."

Appearance has near the weight of any of the maneuvers, yet you have no control over it since every judge is free to determine what he/she considers average and where that number is in the scope of things. What does a zero look like?  What does a 20?  What gets extra points, what is simply expected?

    You have exactly the same "control" you have for the maneuvers, and the judging is just exactly as subjective. The "solution" to how to award points for appearance is exactly the same as for maneuver scores - the opinion of the judges. The one material difference is that, unlike maneuver scores, you have *all* the airplanes there at once, so you can determine what "average" and "decidedly above average" might be for the entire group at once. That makes appearance judging, for the most part, easier and more definitive. Since the absolute number doesn't matter, you can spread it out however you want from 1-20, for any set of airplanes. Since it is only used at that particular contest, you apply relative values in the same way for everyone.

   So, even if you give someone a 20 and someone a 1 - you at least be pretty sure that the judge thought the 20 was much better than the 1 by comparing them side-by-side. Since it is all relative, that's all you need to do.

   But aside from that, and some examples of what *some* experienced judges use as criteria (like Keith Trostle did over on SSW - and then, predictably, got raked over the coals by the anti-modeling crowd, including a claim that he rigged his criteria to favor *Windy*!), it is exactly like maneuver scores - a matter of opinion.

   So, you have no "control" over any of the scores - you do the best you think you can, you ask someone to give their opinion, and maybe they like it and maybe they don't. If you don't like the results, tip your cap to the winner, shake everyone's hand, and resolve to try harder or do something different next time.

    Brett

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #53 on: April 28, 2022, 10:30:25 AM »
How do you factor in foam wings/foam flaps and foam elevator, made by someone else?
And what about lazer cut kits?

Shouldn't we all be cutting out from plans?

   Sheeted foam components have been allowed for a long time. They still need to ne finished further, assembled into a fuselage that you built and then the final finishing system applied. The wording in the rules is or was something about being components found in an average kit. A lot of those kinks were worked out several years ago. Go to the AMA website and read up on it.

    As far as a guide for what to judge for appearance points, if one does not exist, we should coral the remaining 20 point winners that are still living and have them collaborate on something and /or any of the past, better appearance judges throwing in their 2 cents worth.

   Type at you later,
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Offline fred cesquim

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #54 on: April 28, 2022, 11:00:41 AM »
    Yes, inexplicably a troll post about BOM drew a lot of responses. Particularly this one, which sat with no responses for the better part of a year. Fred revived it with a reasonable question- and then it, wonder of wonders, turned into yet another BOM flamefest.
 
    Brett
thanks Brett, my intention was to find the set of rules ( still nothing) and not to open this topic again
i forsee what will happen here in brazil if i suggest such event.... modellers here spend 90% of the "modelling available time" on whatsapp and the 10% remaining sorting throught terabytes of plans saved on their hd´s....

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #55 on: April 28, 2022, 11:15:12 AM »
thanks Brett, my intention was to find the set of rules ( still nothing) and not to open this topic again
i forsee what will happen here in brazil if i suggest such event.... modellers here spend 90% of the "modelling available time" on whatsapp and the 10% remaining sorting throught terabytes of plans saved on their hd´s....

  Understood, but there are too many people taking every opportunity to get in their digs again. In real life, there is no consequential debate about it and very little controversy aside from the occasionally whining. While the internet has brought immense value to our hobby, allowing every random twit to spew nonsense to thousands for free is the cost.

     The appearance point "rules" are mostly non-existent. Almost anything goes, and it is entirely subjective. As mentioned above, several world-class modelers have provided their general guidelines, but usually that gets them a lot of grief, so I could understand why they might be a bit reluctant - and clearly nothing has changed.

  In my personal opinion, Keith's were far and away the clearest and most reasonable, perhaps we can prevail upon him to post them again.

     Brett

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #56 on: April 28, 2022, 11:55:59 AM »
20 points is 1/2 of a maneuver score. I don't consider it "near". I agree with Sparky, bring back 40 points!
But will all of this discussion make any difference...no!
When I refer to the value as being equal to a maneuver I am thinking more in terms of the spread than the absolute score.  In an Expert class in the parts of the country I am familiar with the individual maneuver scores for all fliers are going to average somewhere in the mid 30's.  The range will narrow closer to the top where you have maybe 2 or 3 points per maneuver between the best and worst(excluding screwups) of those making the podium.   To me, that makes the high/low range on appearance just as valuable as a maneuver.

Will the discussion make a difference?  It may to Fred who posed the question in the first place and from what I can gather did not get answer.

I was shocked when I returned from Vietnam to find the 40 appearance points gone.  I didn't like the differences in opinion over what made up originality and realism but some rule clarification would have fixed that. 
« Last Edit: April 28, 2022, 12:13:23 PM by Ken Culbertson »
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #57 on: April 28, 2022, 12:09:23 PM »
I have read through this stuff several times.  Why does people just leave the appearance points where they are required, Open, Senior and Junior classes.  The PAMPA classes let you fly any plane you want, with out the worry of appearance points.   If you want to win you have to try harder and learn more.  I myself do not like finishing planes as many will attest to.  I do like to build/contruct planes.   So why don't we leave things as they ar as far as appearance points.   R%%%%
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #58 on: April 28, 2022, 01:12:45 PM »

I was shocked when I returned from Vietnam to find the 40 appearance points gone.  I didn't like the differences in opinion over what made up originality and realism but some rule clarification would have fixed that.

  I think it would prove a little trickier than you think, particularly "originality". I would lobby against "realism" if it were to come back - I don't think we should be attempting to emulate full-scale aviation, since the rest of the event holds very little correspondence with full-scale.

      Brett

Offline curtis williams

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #59 on: April 28, 2022, 02:19:00 PM »
An extra maneuver , I like that Paul W.
I vote to never bring this up ever again.

Can I hear, a hell ya?

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #60 on: April 28, 2022, 02:20:25 PM »
A good friend of mine built a Jetco Shark and painted it just like the kit box.

I built a Midwest PT-19 and painted it a different way.  I beat him by 3 points in originality.

You would really need an original design that didn't look like a modified Nobler to bag the whole 10 for Originality.

The original BOM Rule said the modeler had the build The Whole Model.  At some time they allowed store bought props.  That was the original sin.  The crack in the wall the brought modeling down to just flying toys.
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Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #61 on: April 28, 2022, 03:28:21 PM »
  I think it would prove a little trickier than you think, particularly "originality". I would lobby against "realism" if it were to come back - I don't think we should be attempting to emulate full-scale aviation, since the rest of the event holds very little correspondence with full-scale.

      Brett
Actually, I think it would be very tricky!  What I miss are the full "scale" cockpits, jet style planes with realistic markings.  Some judges carried originality and realism to ridiculous levels.  I once got the minimum for a 63" 620 sq twin tailed original design with wing mounted gear because the judge claimed it was a modified Nobler.  At least he could have called it a modified Fury or Olympic, neither of which I had heard of at the time.  I wasn't there for the change to 20 so I don't have a clue what prompted it other than the difficulty of judging those categories.  Having known both Gieseke and Rabe, they probably were part of that discussion, maybe even started it LL~. Perhaps in the late 50's there were still a lot of new looking designs.  Today, original is really moot.  I have never quite grasped the concept of minimum points for appearance either.  So Curtis, since I can assume that there will be no concrete standards coming forth, I can add my "hell ya".

Ken
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Offline RC Storick

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #62 on: April 29, 2022, 04:02:31 AM »
This is for the people who think the spirit of the BOM is to build everything It's not. Who is going to open a mining company to mine Ore for aluminum steel  ETC... Open a chemical plant for the manufacture of paint a paper company for the paper and most of all fly down to Ecuador to open a balsa plantation Harvest saw and plane every stick. Don't be ridiculous. That is not the spirit of the rule.

Think about a common pencil. How many people and companies did it take to manufacture it? A whole lot of people had a hand in the making of it. If you want to fly with the big dogs build your own airplane.

in 2017 My dad came to NATS with me. A modeler in his own era 1949 (speed). While in the 180 building he saw a ratty airplane on the last row He told me he felt bad for the Kid but remembered when he built it like that. He said if the kid has the desire he would improve and move up.
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Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #63 on: April 29, 2022, 06:11:51 AM »
Windy got a few 19s and a 20 or two without elaborate color schemes. If I remember correctly. Workmanship. Originality of design, his twins for instance, may have been given consideration. I think Derek's eye popping original, intricate, work was second row not first row, one year. Some planes score very high in appearance while repeating a similar color scheme or modeling a known shape. Originality of design (functional and aesthetic) does not count towards the 20 points, far as I can tell. Which is why I brought up my initial point. In Open at the NATs emphasis is on fit and finish (workmanship), no points for originality. Is that an Impact I see before me on the first row. Again.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2022, 08:35:13 AM by Dennis Moritz »

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #64 on: April 29, 2022, 10:02:37 AM »
This is for the people who think the spirit of the BOM is to build everything It's not.

  Just remember - these guys claiming to insist on making your own wheels, etc,  don't believe that, either. They are taking the reasoning to an absurd extreme, just to make the entire notion seem fraudulent or ridiculous. It's call arguing reductio ad absurdum, and while sometimes it's valid, it certainly isn't in this case. They are trying to win a silly rhetorical argument, because they know for certain that they can't win in a sensible argument.  Just another silly and pointless word game.

    There are certainly people with good sense and an understanding of the event that we should probably at least pay attention to (Bob Hunt, for instance). But snipers from the sidelines, people who don't fly now but "I might be interested if you changed the rules" or using sophistry to try to find a "gotcha" (frequently so they or their buddies can make money selling airplanes) - dismiss out of hand or ignore them.

   I think many times we make a big mistake as a group bothering to treat obviously silly points like they were sober truth - instead of just blowing it off.

    Brett

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #65 on: April 29, 2022, 12:24:40 PM »
where can i get the set of rules for appearance points?
looking forward to do something similar here in brazil

Beyond the AMA rules it's all tribal knowledge, and inexperienced judges following experienced judges until they, too, are experienced.

Personally, and I'm just a local yokel not a Nationals judge, when I judge for appearance I'm looking for flaws, and I'm looking for a plane that's subjectively pretty.

So a plane that's absolutely flawless, and has a nice color scheme is going to get 19 or 20 points from me.  I'm not a big fan of undue panel lines, or other complication in the color scheme that's just for the sake of complication.  If your complicated color scheme looks ugly to me or there's so many panel lines I think it detracts, rather than adds, you may get a lower score than the next guy who has a simple but pretty (to me) color scheme.

If you want to start the ball rolling in Brazil, then the best thing you could do would be to come up and visit.  Next to that, get some of the people around you who make the best-looking planes, and see if you can get them to judge for appearance.

I think if I had any personal guide at all, it'd be something like:

First five points for the attempt.  I think someone would have to show up with the World's Rattiest Airplane to get just five points from me.  If all the wheels are different sizes, and the finish is a patchwork of monocoat, silkspan & dope, shipping tape, and maybe an unpatched hole or two, if I'm on the verge of saying "nope, you can't fly, it's going to fall apart in the air" -- then five points.

Fifteen points if you have a plane that's freshly but inexpertly covered, or that was nice ten years ago and you haven't maintained the finish.

(obviously there's a vast wasteland of judgement calls in between five and fifteen).

I think the lowest appearance score I've given someone was 11.

I'd probably max out at 16 or 17 points for a profile, unless the tank is painted in a matching color and someone obviously went to some effort to detail the engine, landing gear, and other usually-ugly exposed parts.  A profile with a matching-color tank, an engine that's either obviously polished or obviously black anodized just for looks, and has all the exposed tubing covered in metal braid with fake Aeroquip fittings on the ends -- that may get 20 points just for chutzpah, if the rest of the airframe was equally worthy.  But you'll probably have to work harder to make a profile that'll get 20 points from me than a full-fuselage model, and when you're done, I may not be judging.

(In other words -- show up with a profile and I won't say "ugh, profile, 16 points".  I'll say "hmm, engine could look better, oh my, the exposed pushrod doesn't match the color scheme, my, those pink fuel tubes look horrid against the blue and white overall color scheme", etc.)

If everything is shiny, and if I can't find any flaws (like seams, or unfinished spots where ribs meet spars, or uneven spots in silver paint, or paint lines top & bottom that don't meet at the tip), and the bottom looks nice, and the color scheme isn't too bad -- 20 points, and good for you!
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Online EricV

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #66 on: April 29, 2022, 12:55:33 PM »
I was always under the impression, and it seems to hold true in my experience at the 180 building for AP day (with a relative hack like me being able to garner 17AP being the proof), that the simpler you kept it, the less opportunities you give the judges to ding you an AP point. IE: Lots of panel lines, more opportunity to ding you for a wavey line or X'ed line intersection. More trim colors, more opportunity to ding you for a raised paint line bump, color bleed, etc. It can work against but also for you too, a busy scheme can help hide surface variations, etc. too. I think of it just like one of the maneuvers, the AP judge is starting with perfection, and deducting from there. Give him less to deduct.

The trick is to do good carpentry work to start with so as to minimize fill, which can / will shrink and show over time, block sand and level everything, including trim colors edges at the appropriate stages. If you are trying to keep it light, (who isn't?) picking the time to stop filling is very tricky and takes experience to know when you are 99.9% filled, and you know that paint & clear will take that last bit out...I'd rather error on the side of having a little grain show than have a chunky monkey, but that's me. As long as you block sand the clear and put a second coat of clear so the clear itself is flat/level before you buff a shine into it, grain in the color underneath is very hard to see.

Picking a scheme and colors to your best advantage, not just for static judging, but for in-flight as well, could be a consideration if you like playing that game. Long straight lines on the fuse can give the impression of a flying yard stick and make your flats look flatter, but can also make your rounds look less than round, and if you make an over turned square, it can emphasize your dropped tail, and so can a flashy tail paint scheme. A descending line can make it look like you flying tail low, etc. You get the point.

It's all give and take and calculated risk, and is part of the fun of building a better mouse trap. It's showmanship, art, sport, strategy, etc all rolled into one and what makes the event such a fun challenge that people chase it their whole lives, like Jack Lemon still chasing that perfect golf game at the end of Bagger Vance, LOL! Do tempers flare and people feel slighted at times? Sure! Do they get over it and keep having fun? YUP!

That may all sound like total BS to some, but it's been my personal take and has worked well for me. YMMV.
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #67 on: April 29, 2022, 02:22:12 PM »
Is that an Impact I see before me on the first row.

It's but an Impact of the mind, a false creation, Proceeding from the heat-oppressèd brain. 
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Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #68 on: May 03, 2022, 10:54:46 PM »
Yes. Thank you Howard. I was having a Macbeth delusion. Again.

Offline kevin king

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #69 on: May 04, 2022, 12:58:51 AM »
As Windy pointed out, Having the bottom painted just like the top as opposed to nothing on the bottom really increases the Wow factor and i definitely agree! If the bottom of your plane looks as nice or nicer than the top of the plane beside it...You're going up a Row. I love it! 😁 Practice on the bottom then knock it outta the park on the top. The fastest way to separate the men from the boys is ask to see the bottom of their plane.

Kevin

« Last Edit: May 04, 2022, 03:33:35 AM by kevin king »

Offline fred cesquim

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #70 on: May 04, 2022, 08:52:27 AM »
  Just remember - these guys claiming to insist on making your own wheels, etc,  don't believe that, either. They are taking the reasoning to an absurd extreme, just to make the entire notion seem fraudulent or ridiculous. It's call arguing reductio ad absurdum, and while sometimes it's valid, it certainly isn't in this case. They are trying to win a silly rhetorical argument, because they know for certain that they can't win in a sensible argument.  Just another silly and pointless word game.

    There are certainly people with good sense and an understanding of the event that we should probably at least pay attention to (Bob Hunt, for instance). But snipers from the sidelines, people who don't fly now but "I might be interested if you changed the rules" or using sophistry to try to find a "gotcha" (frequently so they or their buddies can make money selling airplanes) - dismiss out of hand or ignore them.

   I think many times we make a big mistake as a group bothering to treat obviously silly points like they were sober truth - instead of just blowing it off.

    Brett
one of the best things iv´re read in years, and this is not only model related, anything "web" can benefit from this.

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #71 on: May 04, 2022, 09:13:38 AM »
At contests in St Louis, they judge the model just before you start it, in the circle, like the rules say. At another contest, farther west, I found begging will get me an 18 vs a 17 for appearance points. I think the judge  did this just to shut me up.  LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~

Back in the day, when they did the 16-40 point thing, the judge would just walk by when you were fueling and write down a number just like the other fifteen 4-point stunts.

If you argued for one more point on appearance, you might get the one point and lose a lot more than one point from the other 600 judgement points.
Paul Smith

Offline Trostle

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #72 on: May 10, 2022, 09:44:00 AM »


     The appearance point "rules" are mostly non-existent. Almost anything goes, and it is entirely subjective. As mentioned above, several world-class modelers have provided their general guidelines, but usually that gets them a lot of grief, so I could understand why they might be a bit reluctant - and clearly nothing has changed.

  In my personal opinion, Keith's were far and away the clearest and most reasonable, perhaps we can prevail upon him to post them again.

     Brett

I have been traveling for the past several weeks and missed out on this discussion.  Since Brett brought up the "guide lines" that were written several years ago regarding appearance judging, these are attached.  This package was prepared by Charles Reeves and myself after a Nationals more than a few years ago.  Charlie and I did the appearance judging at several Nats.  One of those times, there was an uproar created when a particular model received only a moderate number of appearance points.  Its builder had received the Concours award at the previous Nats.  At this Nats, the builder had a new airplane.  It was quite attractive, in fact from a distance, it was just outstanding.  However, the bottom of the airplane was not finished in the same manner as the top and there were other quite obvious flaws in the construction and finish.  The Event Director asked us what we saw in the airplane.  We pointed out why we made the assessment we made and he understood  our score.  Nevertheless, there was a considerable discussion on the forums about the lack of any written standards on how appearance should be judged.  So, around 2001, Charlie and I prepared an outline of what we considered to be a reasonable guide on how appearance of a model could be judged.  This outline was published in Stunt News and later, it was published in an issue of Flying Models.  This package was not intended to be a hard and fast "rule" on appearance judging.  It was intended to serve as a guide for the various factors that could be considered while assessing the number of appearance points for any given model given what the rule book contains.

One interesting side note here regarding cockpit detail.  Clear canopies, painted on canopies and cockpit detail is discussed in our package.  Is a lot of cockpit detail necessary for maximum appearance points?  I think not.  I can remember at one Nats when I was an appearance point judge, there were maybe five airplanes on the front row, like the 19 point row.  Three of those airplanes had painted on canopies.

Here is the package that Charlie and I prepared at that time.

Keith

From about 2001: 

There have been some questions and discussions of the method of appearance judging at the recent Nationals, and in this article we will attempt to explain how we have done it for the last three years.  In 1999, Arlie Prezler, Keith Trostle, and Charles Reeves did appearance judging.  In 2000 and 2001, in Arlie’s absence it was done by Keith, and Charles.

In most local contests, the appearance is judged just prior to the contestant’s first flight, many times with the lines hooked on and the starting equipment close at hand.  However, at the Nationals the judging is done on the afternoon prior to the start of flying competition, and all planes are judged together in one room in a two to three hour period.  Initially during this process, the planes are roughly grouped with the better planes in the front of the room and the others toward the rear.  Then each plane is closely inspected both on top and on the bottom for the quality of workmanship and its overall appearance for its final placing in the group.  In general, the front row will be 19 or 20 points with the rows behind it receiving fewer points, as the judges deem appropriate.  Only after the planes are arranged in the rows of similar quality are points assigned to each row.  Sometimes there are enough planes of similar quality that two rows will be assigned the same appearance points.  The appearance points assigned to a particular airplane/row in this process are relative to the appearance of other airplanes/rows.  There is no set standard that establishes what score a model will or will not receive based on specific aspects of a model’s appearance.  We emphasize that no particular plane is given a certain number of points unless it is judged to be so outstanding that it is given a perfect 20 point score.  Similar points are given to each group of similar quality.

The inspection of each plane is as thorough as can be done in the time period allowed.  In most cases, a particular plane is inspected several times prior to its final placing.  Both judges inspect and agree to the placement of each plane before its final placing, asking each other if the plane is where it should be placed, or should it go one row forward or one row backward.  They also consider if there is a plane in the row ahead of it or behind it that should take its place.
The quality of the workmanship is judged by many factors.  Some of these are listed below.  This list is not all-inclusive, but is our interpretation of craftsmanship and aesthetics that determine the appearance of a model.

Finish
If the plane has a painted finish, was enough paint put on the bottom of the plane to fill the grain of the wood or the pores of the covering material, or was just the top of the plane filled, painted, and rubbed to a high gloss?  The bottom is judged just like the top, and the better planes look just as good on the bottom as they do on the top.  We realize that sometimes less paint is applied to the bottom than to the top to keep weight down and improve the flying ability of the plane.  That may help the flying, but it doesn’t help the appearance!  It’s the pilot/builder’s choice.  Models with film covered surfaces can receive maximum appearance points if the application of the film is accomplished in a manner that shows skill the overall appearance is attractive.

Gloss
Some paint schemes call for a high uniform gloss over the entire airframe.  Other color schemes/airplane designs can be awarded high appearance points with a semi-gloss or even a matte finish if the finish is uniform and appropriate for the model and/or paint scheme.  Inappropriate gloss of lack thereof, or the non-uniform appearance of the finish will result in loss of appearance points.

Color Trim
The color trim is judged higher if there are no places where the color has bled under the masking material, the adjoining trim colors such as checker trim meet properly, the edge is not discernible to the touch, and lines such as pin stripes are straight and not irregular in width.  Use of many colors do not make a first class color scheme.  Many colors applied well in and aesthetic manner do warrant consideration of higher appearance points.

Panel Lines
If you are going to put panel lines on your plane, make sure that the lines do not cross where they are not supposed to, that there are no runs under the straight edge, that the ends meet where they are supposed to, and that the screw slots start and stop where they are supposed to.  Again, lots of panel lines do not make a first class job.  Lots of panel lines done well do add to the appearance of most planes.

Construction
Quality of the fit of components, glue joints, alignment, symmetry, and straight/unwarped flying surfaces all contribute to the appearance of a model.   Poor construction techniques that detract from the appearance of the model will result in a loss of appearance points.  An example would be flaps that are tweaked unevenly, or a tab added to a flap to correct a warped wing.

Cowl and Removable Panels/Components
A nicely fitted cowl and any other removable components with closely fit and barely visible parting lines and hidden bolts or at least flush mounted attaching bolts/screws are  judged higher than a poorly fitted ones and/or those attached with visible bolts and/or screws, Particularly if the bolts/screws extend beyond the surface of the airframe.  Flush or hidden methods of attachment are judged higher than extended and/or visible bolts, screw heads or threads.  Uncovered access holes are a cause for loss of points.  On some planes, the cowl extends or panels are used to cover the pipe tunnel (if the plane is so equipped), and if well executed will be judged higher than models with an open pipe tunnel.  Generally accepted and uniform clearances around the power plant components that extend beyond the cowling such as the engine head, glow plug, needle valve, muffler or pipe exhaust are judged higher when done well than if such openings are wide open or not executed well or if the entire engine area is uncowled.

Landing Gear
A landing gear bolted on with no cover over the bolted connection is not judged as highly as one that is covered, with bolts hardly visible, or not visible at all as in some cases such as permanent gear.  Socket head bolts used as axles on aluminum or carbon fiber gear should be cut off flush with the nut and filed or polished for maximum points.  Wheel pants attached with a couple of screws with visible heads not flush with the mounting surface are certainly not judged as highly as those faired and filleted to the landing gear for a permanent attachment.  Removable wheel pants that show a high degree of workmanship will be judged higher than those that appear just bolted onto the model.  Wheel well covers and landing strut details if well executed will receive more appearance points that a poorly executed assembly.  A tail wheel is judged higher if the attachment is not visible, or is at least recessed and faired in.

Hinge Lines
Close fitting hinge lines with no paint sticking in them are judged better than widely gapped hinge lines with paint broken loose from the surfaces.  Some pilots use hinge line tape to close the gap.  That may help the flying ability of the plane, but it doesn’t help the appearance.  In the case of cloth hinges, no deduction of appearance points will result if their installation is neat and consistent with the overall appearance of the model.

Canopy/Cockpit
Well-executed realistic cockpit detail enhances the appearance and contributes to the award of more appearance points.  Bare, few, or poorly executed cockpit details detract from the appearance of a model.  However, it is possible to have a Precision Aerobatic model design that does not incorporate any semblance of a cockpit or canopy, yet can receive maximum appearance points.  This could happen if the model design is clearly for the function of flying Precision Aerobatics and its appearance clearly not be enhanced by the addition of a cockpit and/or canopy.  A nicely fitted clear canopy with interior cockpit detail is judged higher than a painted canopy.  However, a painted canopy with a simulated frame that appears straight and finely masked is judged higher than a clear canopy not faired in or poorly attached and finished.  For instance, a canopy just glued on top of the fuselage with tape poorly covering the edge of it shows poor craftsmanship.


Spinner and Propeller
A very closely fit spinner (or spinners) that matches the contours of the model is a sign that the pilot has worked hard to fit his engine(s) and spinner(s) to the front of the plane.  A uniform 1/32” gap between the back of the spinner(s) and the nose ring(s) is excellent.  A 1/8” gap isn’t.  The spinner(s) should be cut to fit the propeller(s) closely, and highly polished or finished in a manner consistent with the rest of the finish/design of the airplane to get maximum points.  The propeller(s) should be free of obvious service wear and tear.  It is to be remembered that the propeller(s) installed for appearance judging is(are) to be the same propeller(s) or exactly similar in appearance to the propeller(s) used for the competition flights.

Fillets
Are the fillets smooth or bumpy?  Do they have paint bubbled over them?  Do they have pits in them?  Are they symmetrical and uniform?  The smooth and uniform fillets with no paint bubbles or pits are judged higher.

Details and Protuberances
Other details that might appear on the model not described in the preceding sections could include but not be limited to visible provisions for an adjustable tip weight and adjustable leadouts as well as visible tank vents, vent lines and fuel lines.  Though these elements may be inherent to the overall function and/or look of a particular design, their appearance, if not executed in a neat and workmanship like manner will be cause for loss of appearance points.


Wear and Tear
The model is judged as it is presented to the judges, not as it might have appeared at some earlier time.  Visible service wear resulting in such things as scrapes, dings, weathering, age discoloration and deterioration, finish erosion due to fuel spills, and noticeable repairs all result in lower appearance points.

Aesthetics
The judges try to ignore their own prejudices and preferences and asses the appearance of an airplane on the basis of what should be accepted as reasonable standards of visual appeal.  However, some color combinations, decoration schemes and component shapes just do not fit on a model airplane regardless of how well the airplane has been constructed and finished.  Simply stated, a model that looks attractive will receive more points than one that is not attractive.

(As a literary work, this paper would not score very high in a writing class.  We have some inconsistencies where we use passive/active sentences and using past and present tense.  Some of the sentences are too long.  But if the purpose is to outline some guidelines that we use when we judge a model for appearance, we think this provides a basic foundation for that.)
« Last Edit: May 11, 2022, 08:48:50 PM by Trostle »

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #73 on: May 10, 2022, 11:02:36 AM »
  Just remember - these guys claiming to insist on making your own wheels, etc,  don't believe that, either. They are taking the reasoning to an absurd extreme, just to make the entire notion seem fraudulent or ridiculous. It's call arguing reductio ad absurdum, and while sometimes it's valid, it certainly isn't in this case. They are trying to win a silly rhetorical argument, because they know for certain that they can't win in a sensible argument.  Just another silly and pointless word game.

    There are certainly people with good sense and an understanding of the event that we should probably at least pay attention to (Bob Hunt, for instance). But snipers from the sidelines, people who don't fly now but "I might be interested if you changed the rules" or using sophistry to try to find a "gotcha" (frequently so they or their buddies can make money selling airplanes) - dismiss out of hand or ignore them.

   I think many times we make a big mistake as a group bothering to treat obviously silly points like they were sober truth - instead of just blowing it off.

    Brett

      And like the Junior problem, this is nothing new! You should read some of the letters to the editor in the model mags when Top Flite started to come out with their molded sheet parts and machined leading and trailing edges!! Some of those guys were pretty hot under the collar!  Top Flite's line of C/L scale kits was a particular target. What we call "ARC" models these days aren't new either. Cavacraft and a few others had kits with constructed sub assemblies and only needed to be covered and assembled.  I have an SE-5A ( or is it a Fokker D-7??) like that and it is actually pretty nice., So, really nothing new, but time and technology really kicked it up several notches.
   Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #74 on: May 10, 2022, 11:39:11 AM »
      And like the Junior problem, this is nothing new! You should read some of the letters to the editor in the model mags when Top Flite started to come out with their molded sheet parts and machined leading and trailing edges!! Some of those guys were pretty hot under the collar!  Top Flite's line of C/L scale kits was a particular target. What we call "ARC" models these days aren't new either. Cavacraft and a few others had kits with constructed sub assemblies and only needed to be covered and assembled.  I have an SE-5A ( or is it a Fokker D-7??) like that and it is actually pretty nice., So, really nothing new, but time and technology really kicked it up several notches.

    Right. And, always recall that this argument is almost entirely a matter of people exaggerating the issue or simply making stuff up from whole cloth to try to win the argument. A few responsible people also think we should get rid of it and make arguments based on their legitimate perceived points, but they are greatly in the minority and they don't make fools of themselves by making ridiculous wild claims and pointing the finger at people.

    Almost everything you see, however, is a few people who are not really involved in stunt, or hanging around the fringes, try to annoy the rest of us to death, hoping  that the rest of us get sick of it and give up. Unfortunately, this sort of thing has *kind of* worked in the past and we have indulged some of the same people and people using similar tactics on other topics - greatly to the detriment of the event. This sort of appeasement had the expected effects - emboldened them to try again.

     Of course, the line was crossed long ago, and now they have far less chance of success than ever.

      Brett


 

Online Will Hinton

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #75 on: May 10, 2022, 11:58:32 AM »
Referring to Keith's last post about his and Charlie's experiences, I had the honor, pleasure, and whatever super adjective you wanna use to judge two years in a row with Charlie and Jim Lynch and if anyone ever doubted the integrity and knowledge of those two, don't.  I have never enjoyed judging anything as much as I loved that with them and the learning experience those two nats were!  The outstanding feature of each year was the common sense approach of those two joined to the care and honest interest in each and every airplane.
You wanna learn about judging appearance points, go see Charlie.  (And Keith.)
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #76 on: May 10, 2022, 02:36:47 PM »
As Windy pointed out, Having the bottom painted just like the top as opposed to nothing on the bottom really increases the Wow factor and i definitely agree! If the bottom of your plane looks as nice or nicer than the top of the plane beside it...You're going up a Row. I love it! 😁 Practice on the bottom then knock it outta the park on the top. The fastest way to separate the men from the boys is ask to see the bottom of their plane.

I had the top and bottom match and Phil Granderson berated me for not having the patterns meet at the leading edge, hence not meeting JCT standards.  Top and bottom patterns meet at the leading edge of my new dog.
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #77 on: May 10, 2022, 04:49:40 PM »
I had the top and bottom match and Phil Granderson berated me for not having the patterns meet at the leading edge, hence not meeting JCT standards.  Top and bottom patterns meet at the leading edge of my new dog.

But do they meet at the trailing edges?

A note on undersides of planes:  At local contests, where we all more or less know each other, I'll almost always judge the appearance of just the top of the plane -- because I'm lazy.  The one time they allowed me to judge appearance at the NW Regionals, we spent a lot of time looking at bottoms, and boy, were we judgy.
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline kevin king

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #78 on: May 10, 2022, 11:48:58 PM »
I had the top and bottom match and Phil Granderson berated me for not having the patterns meet at the leading edge, hence not meeting JCT standards.  Top and bottom patterns meet at the leading edge of my new dog.
Atta boy Howard! 😁👍I must have touched up and resprayed the invasion stripes on my Spitfire 10 times trying to get the wing and flap's invasion stripes to come out correct at the hinge line top and bottom.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2022, 12:29:36 AM by kevin king »

Offline phil c

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #79 on: May 11, 2022, 04:52:12 PM »
This talk, mostly towards the bottom of the list, kind of got lost in the details.

Went to a speed limit combat event a couple weeks ago.  I had two planes and no matches for over a year and was still very tired from illness.
I had fun and scored some good points but the best part was a young gentleman named Jesse.  He wondered onto the field about half way through.
He stood around for awhile watching and then started questions-  Where do you get the planes and motors?  What's the fuel made of?  How do you control them.
He kept making comment like "this is really neat" or" so you fly here often?
He had walked a couple miles through the Pinelands and found the field by hearing!

Anyway, we're going to try and keep in touch for later this year and maybe next year.
Younger people who are smart and inquisitive and know what they want are still around.
phil Cartier

Offline fred cesquim

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Re: Appearance Points
« Reply #80 on: May 18, 2022, 01:26:32 PM »
I have been traveling for the past several weeks and missed out on this discussion.  Since Brett brought up the "guide lines" that were written several years ago regarding appearance judging, these are attached.  This package was prepared by Charles Reeves and myself after a Nationals more than a few years ago.  Charlie and I did the appearance judging at several Nats.  One of those times, there was an uproar created when a particular model received only a moderate number of appearance points.  Its builder had received the Concours award at the previous Nats.  At this Nats, the builder had a new airplane.  It was quite attractive, in fact from a distance, it was just outstanding.  However, the bottom of the airplane was not finished in the same manner as the top and there were other quite obvious flaws in the construction and finish.  The Event Director asked us what we saw in the airplane.  We pointed out why we made the assessment we made and he understood  our score.  Nevertheless, there was a considerable discussion on the forums about the lack of any written standards on how appearance should be judged.  So, around 2001, Charlie and I prepared an outline of what we considered to be a reasonable guide on how appearance of a model could be judged.  This outline was published in Stunt News and later, it was published in an issue of Flying Models.  This package was not intended to be a hard and fast "rule" on appearance judging.  It was intended to serve as a guide for the various factors that could be considered while assessing the number of appearance points for any given model given what the rule book contains.

One interesting side note here regarding cockpit detail.  Clear canopies, painted on canopies and cockpit detail is discussed in our package.  Is a lot of cockpit detail necessary for maximum appearance points?  I think not.  I can remember at one Nats when I was an appearance point judge, there were maybe five airplanes on the front row, like the 19 point row.  Three of those airplanes had painted on canopies.

Here is the package that Charlie and I prepared at that time.

Keith

From about 2001: 

There have been some questions and discussions of the method of appearance judging at the recent Nationals, and in this article we will attempt to explain how we have done it for the last three years.  In 1999, Arlie Prezler, Keith Trostle, and Charles Reeves did appearance judging.  In 2000 and 2001, in Arlie’s absence it was done by Keith, and Charles.

In most local contests, the appearance is judged just prior to the contestant’s first flight, many times with the lines hooked on and the starting equipment close at hand.  However, at the Nationals the judging is done on the afternoon prior to the start of flying competition, and all planes are judged together in one room in a two to three hour period.  Initially during this process, the planes are roughly grouped with the better planes in the front of the room and the others toward the rear.  Then each plane is closely inspected both on top and on the bottom for the quality of workmanship and its overall appearance for its final placing in the group.  In general, the front row will be 19 or 20 points with the rows behind it receiving fewer points, as the judges deem appropriate.  Only after the planes are arranged in the rows of similar quality are points assigned to each row.  Sometimes there are enough planes of similar quality that two rows will be assigned the same appearance points.  The appearance points assigned to a particular airplane/row in this process are relative to the appearance of other airplanes/rows.  There is no set standard that establishes what score a model will or will not receive based on specific aspects of a model’s appearance.  We emphasize that no particular plane is given a certain number of points unless it is judged to be so outstanding that it is given a perfect 20 point score.  Similar points are given to each group of similar quality.

The inspection of each plane is as thorough as can be done in the time period allowed.  In most cases, a particular plane is inspected several times prior to its final placing.  Both judges inspect and agree to the placement of each plane before its final placing, asking each other if the plane is where it should be placed, or should it go one row forward or one row backward.  They also consider if there is a plane in the row ahead of it or behind it that should take its place.
The quality of the workmanship is judged by many factors.  Some of these are listed below.  This list is not all-inclusive, but is our interpretation of craftsmanship and aesthetics that determine the appearance of a model.

Finish
If the plane has a painted finish, was enough paint put on the bottom of the plane to fill the grain of the wood or the pores of the covering material, or was just the top of the plane filled, painted, and rubbed to a high gloss?  The bottom is judged just like the top, and the better planes look just as good on the bottom as they do on the top.  We realize that sometimes less paint is applied to the bottom than to the top to keep weight down and improve the flying ability of the plane.  That may help the flying, but it doesn’t help the appearance!  It’s the pilot/builder’s choice.  Models with film covered surfaces can receive maximum appearance points if the application of the film is accomplished in a manner that shows skill the overall appearance is attractive.

Gloss
Some paint schemes call for a high uniform gloss over the entire airframe.  Other color schemes/airplane designs can be awarded high appearance points with a semi-gloss or even a matte finish if the finish is uniform and appropriate for the model and/or paint scheme.  Inappropriate gloss of lack thereof, or the non-uniform appearance of the finish will result in loss of appearance points.

Color Trim
The color trim is judged higher if there are no places where the color has bled under the masking material, the adjoining trim colors such as checker trim meet properly, the edge is not discernible to the touch, and lines such as pin stripes are straight and not irregular in width.  Use of many colors do not make a first class color scheme.  Many colors applied well in and aesthetic manner do warrant consideration of higher appearance points.

Panel Lines
If you are going to put panel lines on your plane, make sure that the lines do not cross where they are not supposed to, that there are no runs under the straight edge, that the ends meet where they are supposed to, and that the screw slots start and stop where they are supposed to.  Again, lots of panel lines do not make a first class job.  Lots of panel lines done well do add to the appearance of most planes.

Construction
Quality of the fit of components, glue joints, alignment, symmetry, and straight/unwarped flying surfaces all contribute to the appearance of a model.   Poor construction techniques that detract from the appearance of the model will result in a loss of appearance points.  An example would be flaps that are tweaked unevenly, or a tab added to a flap to correct a warped wing.

Cowl and Removable Panels/Components
A nicely fitted cowl and any other removable components with closely fit and barely visible parting lines and hidden bolts or at least flush mounted attaching bolts/screws are  judged higher than a poorly fitted ones and/or those attached with visible bolts and/or screws, Particularly if the bolts/screws extend beyond the surface of the airframe.  Flush or hidden methods of attachment are judged higher than extended and/or visible bolts, screw heads or threads.  Uncovered access holes are a cause for loss of points.  On some planes, the cowl extends or panels are used to cover the pipe tunnel (if the plane is so equipped), and if well executed will be judged higher than models with an open pipe tunnel.  Generally accepted and uniform clearances around the power plant components that extend beyond the cowling such as the engine head, glow plug, needle valve, muffler or pipe exhaust are judged higher when done well than if such openings are wide open or not executed well or if the entire engine area is uncowled.

Landing Gear
A landing gear bolted on with no cover over the bolted connection is not judged as highly as one that is covered, with bolts hardly visible, or not visible at all as in some cases such as permanent gear.  Socket head bolts used as axles on aluminum or carbon fiber gear should be cut off flush with the nut and filed or polished for maximum points.  Wheel pants attached with a couple of screws with visible heads not flush with the mounting surface are certainly not judged as highly as those faired and filleted to the landing gear for a permanent attachment.  Removable wheel pants that show a high degree of workmanship will be judged higher than those that appear just bolted onto the model.  Wheel well covers and landing strut details if well executed will receive more appearance points that a poorly executed assembly.  A tail wheel is judged higher if the attachment is not visible, or is at least recessed and faired in.

Hinge Lines
Close fitting hinge lines with no paint sticking in them are judged better than widely gapped hinge lines with paint broken loose from the surfaces.  Some pilots use hinge line tape to close the gap.  That may help the flying ability of the plane, but it doesn’t help the appearance.  In the case of cloth hinges, no deduction of appearance points will result if their installation is neat and consistent with the overall appearance of the model.

Canopy/Cockpit
Well-executed realistic cockpit detail enhances the appearance and contributes to the award of more appearance points.  Bare, few, or poorly executed cockpit details detract from the appearance of a model.  However, it is possible to have a Precision Aerobatic model design that does not incorporate any semblance of a cockpit or canopy, yet can receive maximum appearance points.  This could happen if the model design is clearly for the function of flying Precision Aerobatics and its appearance clearly not be enhanced by the addition of a cockpit and/or canopy.  A nicely fitted clear canopy with interior cockpit detail is judged higher than a painted canopy.  However, a painted canopy with a simulated frame that appears straight and finely masked is judged higher than a clear canopy not faired in or poorly attached and finished.  For instance, a canopy just glued on top of the fuselage with tape poorly covering the edge of it shows poor craftsmanship.


Spinner and Propeller
A very closely fit spinner (or spinners) that matches the contours of the model is a sign that the pilot has worked hard to fit his engine(s) and spinner(s) to the front of the plane.  A uniform 1/32” gap between the back of the spinner(s) and the nose ring(s) is excellent.  A 1/8” gap isn’t.  The spinner(s) should be cut to fit the propeller(s) closely, and highly polished or finished in a manner consistent with the rest of the finish/design of the airplane to get maximum points.  The propeller(s) should be free of obvious service wear and tear.  It is to be remembered that the propeller(s) installed for appearance judging is(are) to be the same propeller(s) or exactly similar in appearance to the propeller(s) used for the competition flights.

Fillets
Are the fillets smooth or bumpy?  Do they have paint bubbled over them?  Do they have pits in them?  Are they symmetrical and uniform?  The smooth and uniform fillets with no paint bubbles or pits are judged higher.

Details and Protuberances
Other details that might appear on the model not described in the preceding sections could include but not be limited to visible provisions for an adjustable tip weight and adjustable leadouts as well as visible tank vents, vent lines and fuel lines.  Though these elements may be inherent to the overall function and/or look of a particular design, their appearance, if not executed in a neat and workmanship like manner will be cause for loss of appearance points.


Wear and Tear
The model is judged as it is presented to the judges, not as it might have appeared at some earlier time.  Visible service wear resulting in such things as scrapes, dings, weathering, age discoloration and deterioration, finish erosion due to fuel spills, and noticeable repairs all result in lower appearance points.

Aesthetics
The judges try to ignore their own prejudices and preferences and asses the appearance of an airplane on the basis of what should be accepted as reasonable standards of visual appeal.  However, some color combinations, decoration schemes and component shapes just do not fit on a model airplane regardless of how well the airplane has been constructed and finished.  Simply stated, a model that looks attractive will receive more points than one that is not attractive.

(As a literary work, this paper would not score very high in a writing class.  We have some inconsistencies where we use passive/active sentences and using past and present tense.  Some of the sentences are too long.  But if the purpose is to outline some guidelines that we use when we judge a model for appearance, we think this provides a basic foundation for that.)
thank you Trostle, that´s exactly i was searching for!


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