Appearance Points

[Dennis Moritz]

It's my impression that fit and finish are the criteria for awarding appearance points. In other words a common kit model finished in a single color could potentially receive the same points as a comparatively original design with an elaborate color scheme. Am I missing something?

[Dave_Trible]

In a purely technical matter you are correct.  The working terms are "workmanship" and "finish".  However since the judges are typically modelers themselves with their own tastes and types of things that appeal to them even sub consciencely,  you can't guess an outcome.  This MIGHT have been some of the reason the value of the appearance score was reduced from 40 points to 20 points some time back.  The point spread from 'perfect' to above average is usually less than five points.  Flying a couple maneuvers just a tad better makes up the difference and may be worth saving a few 'finish' ounces of weight. (IMHO)

Dave

[Dennis Moritz]

Yes. Workmanship. Better term

[phil c]

"finish" includes the design of the paint scheme.  Even a modest color scheme design would score better than a single solid color, perhaps with the pilot's name on it.

The design of the color scheme can get to overdone, crowded, poorly laid out etc.  That would detract from the "finish", along with pebbling, smears, wobbly straight lines that appear meant to be straight, curves that don't have pleasant execution-wobbly edges to no visible purpose,  lumps and bumps showing through the covering from construction faults, etc.
Like any piece of art, which what it is, it needs balance, layout, design, details, a coherent theme(you can't slap mixing decals for AMA, Airforce, US Navy, Army, the Eiffel Tower, the Russian flag,  The US flag, and others, random insignia here and there.

Phil C
717-566-3810

[Dennis Moritz]

First time I heard about that Phil. Some plain designs got 19. Is this a correct elaboration of the quality of finish criteria?

[Dennis Moritz]

To those who think appearance points are moot, check out the top 5 scores.

[John Rist]

"finish" includes the design of the paint scheme.  Even a modest color scheme design would score better than a single solid color, perhaps with the pilot's name on it.

The design of the color scheme can get to overdone, crowded, poorly laid out etc.  That would detract from the "finish", along with pebbling, smears, wobbly straight lines that appear meant to be straight, curves that don't have pleasant execution-wobbly edges to no visible purpose,  lumps and bumps showing through the covering from construction faults, etc.
Like any piece of art, which what it is, it needs balance, layout, design, details, a coherent theme(you can't slap mixing decals for AMA, Airforce, US Navy, Army, the Eiffel Tower, the Russian flag,  The US flag, and others, random insignia here and there.

Phil C
717-566-3810

To be sure I don't have a dog in the fight because I will never be in a stunt competition that has appearance point (I am too old).  The problem is appearance points are some one's opinion.   I used to do wedding photography.  Some of my best work was hated by the customer.  Some of my worst got rave revues.  I don't have a solution for the problem.  Any time you have a score dependent on a matter of opinion you will have a difference of  opinions.  A contestant has two choices. Accept the opinion of the judges knowing it is an opinion, or don't compete. A third option is become the judge.  Then your opinion is the only one that counts!     

[Brett Buck]

To those who think appearance points are moot, check out the top 5 scores.

   It has never been, and as far as I know, no one has ever claimed it was, moot in the Top 5. That is *as intended*, that was the goal, that is why we have appearance points. We would not have them if they did not make a difference. The recent trend toward a larger score range in the flyoff has led to a few discussions about increasing the appearance points (to 30 or 40) to make sure it still makes a difference.

     They are moot in local PAMPA competition, aside from a few hotbed areas. The range of scores in these contests is such that you can *easily* overcome a few points simply by spending the time you freed up not building your own airplane to practice and trimming better. This is also *by design* - before there were the accursed ARFs and RTFs, there were OPPs - other people's airplanes. The PAMPA rules were designed to permit borrowing airplanes to fly, which *could not be done* before. If  you didn't have an airplane you built yourself, you were a spectator.

    Brett
 
   

[Shorts,David]

Counting myself as a newcomer, relatively speaking. I keep reading and applying what I read from my venerable elders in PA (yes, you Brett). This applies to appearance points. Fortunately, as Brett points out, at local competitions there is a small change due to appearance points. And, as a new comer, I was delighted to have beaten my dad at VSC two years ago on flight score, just not on the scoreboard because I was borrowing another person's plane.  After all, neither of us were taking home hardware.

However, it did get me wanting to revisit the building board to rectify this for future situations. This is part of the sport which I delightfully accept as the next challenge, because I suck at painting. I have several akromasters and other such ilk which I built for the sole purpose of figuring out how to put monocote or fabric on a wing, how to paint and sand, etc. And just like going out and practicing fifteen foot pullouts from wingovers, I mean, five foot pullouts, I too must practice how much primer, how much paint, how much clear coat, etc., and practice I shall.

If I didn't like it, I'd stick with borrowed planes, but I DO like it. What fun is a hobby you master in ten years?

David

p.s. I just watched the beginning of my nats video where people stood in line with such a wide variety of hand crafted aircraft waiting to be judged. For some competitors, THIS IS THE NATS--Presenting your personally labored over aircraft for judging. I tried to imagine everyone standing around with nearly identically molded aircraft coming from somewhere else, with only variations in color schemes. That would just be stupid.

Just listen to modern pop music where songs are crapped out from song writing factories, given to artists, and have no depth or soul. Do you like it? Or would you take, "God only Knows," by the Beach Boys and Brian Wilson? Point being, you can fly somebody else's planes and have a lot of fun, but it isn't a hobby anymore. Europe needs to move into the past which is really the future. Because even with its faults, appearance points make this a true hobby and discipline.

[Shorts,David]

But one other thought regarding Concours d'elegance. It would be great if in someway, planes were not arranged into rows for concours judging, although this would take more time. But, point being, I believe contestants are subliminally predisposed to vote for front row planes for concours. That isn't quite right.

[Derek Barry]

But one other thought regarding Concours d'elegance. It would be great if in someway, planes were not arranged into rows for concours judging, although this would take more time. But, point being, I believe contestants are subliminally predisposed to vote for front row planes for concours. That isn't quite right.

Sorry, but you are incorrect.  I personally own two planes that won concours awards from the second row. Most pilots have decided who they plan on voting for, before appearance judging even begins. (So final placement is pretty irrelevant) Many others vote for their own plane every year. It usually comes down to 2 planes that have 10-15 votes each. The winner and 2nd place are usually pretty close.

Derek

[Brett Buck]

But one other thought regarding Concours d'elegance. It would be great if in someway, planes were not arranged into rows for concours judging, although this would take more time. But, point being, I believe contestants are subliminally predisposed to vote for front row planes for concours. That isn't quite right.

Well, maybe, but usually I have decided long before we get to appearance judging, and the only thing the lineup does for me is maybe draw attention to an airplane I had overlooked or hadn't been at the field.   

     Brett

[Shorts,David]

Sorry, but you are incorrect.  I personally own two planes that won concours awards from the second row. Most pilots have decided who they plan on voting for, before appearance judging even begins. (So final placement is pretty irrelevant) Many others vote for their own plane every year. It usually comes down to 2 planes that have 10-15 votes each. The winner and 2nd place are usually pretty close.

Derek

Okay, fair enough. The plane I was considering to vote for, I didn't vote for because it may have been a third row plane, so I gave into the peer pressure of first two rows. Next time I'll stick with my gut.

[fred cesquim]

where can i get the set of rules for appearance points?
looking forward to do something similar here in brazil

[Dan McEntee]

It's my impression that fit and finish are the criteria for awarding appearance points. In other words a common kit model finished in a single color could potentially receive the same points as a comparatively original design with an elaborate color scheme. Am I missing something?

     Yes, I would say you are missing quite a bit.

    A nicely finished model that is multicolored, with some ink line detail, some air brush work and a detailed cockpit SHOULD get more points than a nicely finished model that is one solid color with no other detailing. More work and imagination is involved. One guy went only so far and then quit, while the other guy kept working and improving. To put them in the same row for the same score, or to even think about and suggest it, is incorrect and wrong. It is in the same vain as the instance of the superbly painted, detailed and weather F4F Wildcat that was given a low score one year because it wasn't shiny and the work involved in it's finish wasn't correctly accounted for. Just because a model that is smooth and shiny but only one color and no other details doesn't put it on the same level as one that had 3 colors, pin stripes, ink lines and a detailed cockpit. You have to make your model up to the standard required, not bring the standard down to your model.
   Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

   

[John Rist]

If you think this sucks try building scale. 

[Ken Culbertson]

where can i get the set of rules for appearance points?
looking forward to do something similar here in brazil

For AMA, this is it.

10. Appearance.
Models shall be judged for appearance complete and ready to fly. After model has
been judged, nothing will be removed from or added to the model which, in the
judges’ opinion, changes in any manner the appearance of the model from the
way it was when presented for appearance judging. However, during an attempt
for official flight after the contestant has begun to crank the engine, if it becomes
necessary to remove the propeller spinner for change of propeller, etc., then it is
permissible to leave off the spinner for that particular flight. Any damage to the
model after judging, or changes that may be made as a result of such damage, will
not be cause for loss of appearance points. Appearance judging will take place
just before contestant’s first flight. Judges shall exercise prudence in assigning
points, and reserve excellent point values for those models which are decidedly
above average.
Appearance (Minimum-0 Maximum-20)
10.1.
Appearance points are added to the contestant’s flight points for scoring
purposes.

Maybe someone else knows where there is more.

Good Luck - Ken

[Dave_Trible]

     Yes, I would say you are missing quite a bit.

    A nicely finished model that is multicolored, with some ink line detail, some air brush work and a detailed cockpit SHOULD get more points than a nicely finished model that is one solid color with no other detailing. More work and imagination is involved. One guy went only so far and then quit, while the other guy kept working and improving. To put them in the same row for the same score, or to even think about and suggest it, is incorrect and wrong. It is in the same vain as the instance of the superbly painted, detailed and weather F4F Wildcat that was given a low score one year because it wasn't shiny and the work involved in it's finish wasn't correctly accounted for. Just because a model that is smooth and shiny but only one color and no other details doesn't put it on the same level as one that had 3 colors, pin stripes, ink lines and a detailed cockpit. You have to make your model up to the standard required, not bring the standard down to your model.
   Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

   

Dan a few years ago I did not prevail in a discussion about how a hand rubbed dope finish (maybe 300 hours) should be worth a bit more than a spray on automotive coating or even monocote.  There isn’t really an “effort bonus”.  It’s more like just a snapshot in time with the current rules.

Dave

Dave

[Dan McEntee]

Dan a few years ago I did not prevail in a discussion about how a hand rubbed dope finish (maybe 300 hours) should be worth a bit more than a spray on automotive coating or even monocote.  There isn’t really an “effort bonus”.  It’s more like just a snapshot in time with the current rules.

Dave

Dave

  Well, the "effort" is what augments any skill involved! With out any effort, the paint just lays there!! Shine don't come in a can. When you spray on the "easy " stuff, it still has to be sprayed on a substrate that has been properly sanded, processed and prepped, other wise it's just clear extra weight. To do a GOOD monokote job is a lot of work also! To do one that just looks decent is a lot of work! What lies underneath it is where the effort is there. Monokote won't cover up and hide laziness and poor fit ups and lack of craftsmanship. When the base is good, then the fun begins with the covering and that takes effort To not take into account and recognize the effort is stupid. You might as well allow manufactured models and finishes then, and we don't do that now. I guess it's just another sign of the times, where we are having trouble coming up with the proper personnel for appearance judging along with everything else. 
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[Ken Culbertson]

Since the rule book doesn't tell us much, I thought appearance points are what you get for showing up.

[Ted Fancher]

I think one more aspect of appearance points should be part of this discussion.

Probably the single most influential event that (as a young barely teenager) convinced me that CLPA was going to be a significant part of my life was when a fella showed up at a meeting of a model building club for kids my brother Gary and I belonged to that was conducted for us by Boeing aircraft employees (the site was just a mile or so from the then major Boeing assembly plant at the Renton (Washington) Municipal Airport).

At one meeting a fella showed up with two of the most beautiful things I'd ever seen; two "stunt" ships (first I'd heard of that nomenclature).  One a magnificent Black Tiger with glorious dragon teeth on the nose just behind the propeller, the other a gorgeous ship I later learned was a Veco Thunderbird with a finish like fine China. 

The builder of those ships was a new Boeing guy out from "back East" named Bob Emmett who quickly became a significant part of my life and counseled me on all things "stunt."  From that day on I was hooked and determined someday to be able to create ships just half as beautiful as Bobs...and, hopefully fly them as well as did he.

I bring this up to initiate into this discussion the huge degree to which...for me and, I suspect, many others...craftsmanship and beauty were and are nearly as significant a part of the Stunt event as the "tricks" we put 'em thru in the air...be it at a local practice site or the field of competition.  To this day I remain convinced that, had such "devices" been available ready to fly off the shelf at Walgreen's, my love affair with the event and the airplanes themselves would never have taken root. 

I wanted to do what Bob Emmet did.

To this day it is my firm belief that the handful of appearance points available even before the lines are hooked up are worthy of that place in the competition.  The availability of multi thousand dollar examples of another's craftsmanship and artistry are a poor substitute for what that artistry from the hands of the pilot brings to the game.

In other words; IMHO, we diddle with them at our own risk.

Ted

[Brent Williams]

There aren't many kids attending model airplane clubs in every city all over the country to be influenced by the local masterful building and finishing.  They generally don't care and if they do...they don't care about the finish, good or bad.  They are the future of the hobby. 
There aren't many folks under 40 attending model airplane clubs in every city all over the country to be influenced by masterful building and finishing.  They don't care, or don't care that much about the airplane provenance or finish quality.  They are the future of the hobby.
There are a lot of current participants of the hobby that appreciate the effort involved, but don't care that much about the masterful building and finishing despite the historical norm.
There are a lot of current participants, that for a variety of reasons struggle with the building and finishing, allergy to fumes, dust, lack of space, time constraints, ect.
I don't think the sky would fall if BOM and appearance points just faded away.  The rising cadre just.does. not. care. about. it. at. all.

[Tim Wescott]

Dan a few years ago I did not prevail in a discussion about how a hand rubbed dope finish (maybe 300 hours) should be worth a bit more than a spray on automotive coating or even monocote.  There isn’t really an “effort bonus”.  It’s more like just a snapshot in time with the current rules.

Go into your shop and make a Monocoat finish that's flawless enough to get 20 points at the Nats.  No wrinkles, no visible seams, no scuff marks, no light spots where the underlying adhesive was stretched, no dark spots where it significantly shrank, no wood grain showing through, etc., etc.

Let us know if it took you three hours or four.

Or 300.  Or if you managed it at all.

The world is waiting.

[Brett Buck]

I don't think the sky would fall if BOM and appearance points just faded away.  The rising cadre just.does. not. care. about. it. at. all.

  Which "rising cadre" is that?

     Brett

[Brent Williams]

  Which "rising cadre" is that?

     Brett

Exactly.

[Jim Hoffman]

I agree with Ted Fancher’s view.  Without the craftsmanship aspect, stunt would be greatly diminished for me and many others.

Witness that there are many beautiful OTS models where no appearance pts exist

Frankly, my carrier ships get quality finishes and craftsmanship too.

[Brett Buck]

Exactly.

  My point being, of course, is that at least now, you have an event that appeals to *someone*, actually a fair number of someones. Cheapening it will certainly drive out a lot of the current participants, on the vain hope that others will take their place.

   Brett

[Shorts,David]

There aren't many kids attending model airplane clubs in every city all over the country to be influenced by the local masterful building and finishing.  They generally don't care and if they do...they don't care about the finish, good or bad.  They are the future of the hobby. 
There aren't many folks under 40 attending model airplane clubs in every city all over the country to be influenced by masterful building and finishing.  They don't care, or don't care that much about the airplane provenance or finish quality.  They are the future of the hobby.
There are a lot of current participants of the hobby that appreciate the effort involved, but don't care that much about the masterful building and finishing despite the historical norm.
There are a lot of current participants, that for a variety of reasons struggle with the building and finishing, allergy to fumes, dust, lack of space, time constraints, ect.
I don't think the sky would fall if BOM and appearance points just faded away.  The rising cadre just.does. not. care. about. it. at. all.

This  !is a deeper dichotomy than some consider and has successfully existed for decades. It is that average new flier and even average intermediate guy fly planes that typically don't look that great. Even an advanced flier or two still haven't figured out the final stages of finishing (yours truly).  These planes attract more new fliers who see the hobby as accessible because the planes don't look that great. Eventually a few will go on to make beautiful models and inspire the middle echelon. The problem is if there are nothing but beautiful models at the local level, many absolutely pass on the hobby. But this has always been true.
As a child our local club was still active and filled with brush painted banshees, etc. There was one guy who had the amazing looking models (Arlie Preszler).
When I fly at Woodland Davis club, there are usually planes running the gamut from patched up ringmasters to Jim Aron's planes.
The problem only exists when you have newer fliers and nothing to make them feel welcomed by way of similar beginner finishes. Even the nats can be very humbling if you're in the back row with no company.
It's true in every pastime. A brushed banshee inspires the rookie. A front row finish may blow them away...
All that to say, there's no reason to get rid of BOM.

[fred cesquim]

This  !is a deeper dichotomy than some consider and has successfully existed for decades. It is that average new flier and even average intermediate guy fly planes that typically don't look that great. Even an advanced flier or two still haven't figured out the final stages of finishing (yours truly).  These planes attract more new fliers who see the hobby as accessible because the planes don't look that great. Eventually a few will go on to make beautiful models and inspire the middle echelon. The problem is if there are nothing but beautiful models at the local level, many absolutely pass on the hobby. But this has always been true.
As a child our local club was still active and filled with brush painted banshees, etc. There was one guy who had the amazing looking models (Arlie Preszler).
When I fly at Woodland Davis club, there are usually planes running the gamut from patched up ringmasters to Jim Aron's planes.
The problem only exists when you have newer fliers and nothing to make them feel welcomed by way of similar beginner finishes. Even the nats can be very humbling if you're in the back row with no company.
It's true in every pastime. A brushed banshee inspires the rookie. A front row finish may blow them away...
All that to say, there's no reason to get rid of BOM.

when i started this hobby what caught my attention was the shiny well finished planes on the hobby shops, immediatly i set my goal.
what would be more appealing for a newcomer: watching a flight with no loops, inverted fligts or wing-overs or a full pattern? one may think that a level uneventfull flight would be boring. when i fly C/L at my R/C filed jet pilots came around and says "that looks interesting and challenging, i thought C/L was just flying around a circle"
Seems people have different ways to face challenges. There´s a local filed near me with a culture of low quality finishes, it´s so strong that if you arrives with a well finished plane, people stay away from it not to be contaminated. I would love to have the BOM/appearance points kind of competition here in brazil, there is a few who would love to attend, and a lot who would not.
that´s what makes hobby interesting, the options and the personal goals

[Tim Wescott]

There aren't many kids attending model airplane clubs in every city all over the country to be influenced by the local masterful building and finishing.  They generally don't care and if they do...they don't care about the finish, good or bad.  They are the future of the hobby. 
There aren't many folks under 40 attending model airplane clubs in every city all over the country to be influenced by masterful building and finishing.  They don't care, or don't care that much about the airplane provenance or finish quality.  They are the future of the hobby.
There are a lot of current participants of the hobby that appreciate the effort involved, but don't care that much about the masterful building and finishing despite the historical norm.
There are a lot of current participants, that for a variety of reasons struggle with the building and finishing, allergy to fumes, dust, lack of space, time constraints, ect.
I don't think the sky would fall if BOM and appearance points just faded away.  The rising cadre just.does. not. care. about. it. at. all.

Y'know, this is a self-solving problem.  The rising cadre can just become the old guard, say "we don't care about appearance points", and lobby their local contest board member (or become their local contest board member) to remove appearance points and the BOM from stunt.  Done deal.

Or they can just organize meets that fly by FAI rules, and start using the Team Trials as their Nationals.  Done deal (unless you win, and don't actually want to go to furrin' parts and fly the next year).

On a different note:

Oh, I put so much effort into my first control line model intended for competition.  It was a Ringmaster, probably would have gotten between 14 and 16 points at a local contest (so, not too shiny, but three different colors, silkspan & dope).

Pulverized it on the first flight.  It never even got to land in one piece.

I've never talked to someone who expressed discouragement at people's pretty airplanes.  Everyone I've seen come up through the ranks starts with ratty planes, often ratty old other people's planes.

[Ken Culbertson]

Y'know, this is a self-solving problem.  The rising cadre can just become the old guard, say "we don't care about appearance points", and lobby their local contest board member (or become their local contest board member) to remove appearance points and the BOM from stunt.  Done deal.

Or they can just organize meets that fly by FAI rules, and start using the Team Trials as their Nationals.  Done deal (unless you win, and don't actually want to go to furrin' parts and fly the next year).

On a different note:

Oh, I put so much effort into my first control line model intended for competition.  It was a Ringmaster, probably would have gotten between 14 and 16 points at a local contest (so, not too shiny, but three different colors, silkspan & dope).

Pulverized it on the first flight.  It never even got to land in one piece.

I've never talked to someone who expressed discouragement at people's pretty airplanes.  Everyone I've seen come up through the ranks starts with ratty planes, often ratty old other people's planes.

I am in near 100% agreement with your take.  The more we debate this issue the more I become convinced that both sides are right and that is the textbook formula for doing nothing.  I missed the debates over the last two changes to the points, the dropping of the 40 and the combining of the 20 and I don't really understand either.  If you are going to have appearance as a category there should be some guidelines and balance between workmanship and finish.  I can get my brain around dropping realism and originality, but I think better definitions would have been better than dropping the categories all together.   I miss the detailed cockpits and flawless workmanship of the 60's and 70's.  I would suggest a rule change to quantify "Appearance" but that would require me to come up with a definition and no matter how I would try, it would be my subjective opinion.

Maybe some form of dual awards.  Most of the locals give an award for best appearance separate from the event standings.  Why not one for high flight score?  Just my thoughts.

Ken

[Tom Luciano]

Interesting that people think the event won't grow because of BOM/Appearance points. There are very competitive ARF's available that will work at 99% of the contests in the country. Also, at the national's level except for open you can compete with a gifted/bought/ ARF airplane(0 appearance points). The 2 years I attended the Nats there were SV-11 Arf's/purchased aircraft in the top 10 in Advanced. Also, a 16 point airplane won open 3 years ago. It still is a flying comp in open and, if your good enough you can make the top 5 with a 14 point airplane. If You are commited enough to make the top 20 in open you have had the time to put in to practice. Building a airplane is a small fraction of that time commitment. 

My $.02

Tom

[RC Storick]

Remember we are talking about ONE contest per year. The NATS where BOM applies. If I am wrong let me know. If left up to me it would be ALL contests and 40 points. It should be worth at least one maneuver score not half MAX.

[Ken Culbertson]

The part of BOM that applies to the NATS is eligibility, not appearance.  I doubt that the BOM rule stops anybody from attending the NATS.  A week-long and 1500 miles away, now that keeps a lot of people from attending.   Appearance on the other hand is part of every contest.  It should be part of all events, not just PA.  I agree with Sparky that 40 points is a proper reward, but at that high figure it is also a death sentence.   If originality and realism no longer apply, then it really is workmanship and finish so why not define what that really means and maybe allow ARCs and restored OCCs in with a 10 point penalty?

Ken

[Doug Moon]

I feel 20 is a good number.  I know it takes a billion hours to finish a plane out the best it can be.  I have been lucky enough to be on the 2nd row before.  But 20 is a good amount for that portion of the event.

To get top points in that portion of the event you need to execute the attempted project with a high amount accuracy. I was told that once by an appearance judge at the nats. As long as the judges judge with that as the basis of their evaluation the color scheme, style, layout, model type, will have no bearing on it.  They cant judge on what "they like".  We don't build and finish based on what they "like" or prefer.  We build what we like and they judge on how well we executed the attempted project.

The BOM itself should NEVER be removed from Event 322 JSO. The BOM is what makes the event what it really is, an modeling contest. Having the appearance portion of the event enhances it even more so. To be competitive at the top of our discipline you have to be a well rounded modeler in all phases.

 

[Frank Imbriaco]

Remember we are talking about ONE contest per year. The NATS where BOM applies. If I am wrong let me know. If left up to me it would be ALL contests and 40 points. It should be worth at least one maneuver score not half MAX.

I agree with the 40 Points.

[Sean McEntee]

I don't think the sky would fall if BOM and appearance points just faded away.  The rising cadre just.does. not. care. about. it. at. all.

The sky wouldn't suddenly fill with stunt models either.  I would be willing to bet any amount of money that that there isnt a single soul IN the hobby currently, that has anywhere near the flying ability needed to make the top 20, let alone the top 5, and their obstacle is the BOM rule.  I would also be willing to bet that any that there isnt a soul on the planet who was super amped up about CL stunt until they heard about the BOM rule in Open at the Nat's.   The BOM rule is not the reason for the lack of newcomers and eliminating it will do absolutely nothing to draw beginners.  The argument against BOM is part of the hauteur that is CL stunt in general: that every single stunt flier has the end goal of hoisting the Walker Cup.  They don't.  I've flown several off-the-path contests throughout the country.  They are littered with flyers--some in the advanced and expert classes--who have no interest in flying in the Nat's, and that is perfectly fine.  The Nat's is a marriage-like commitment; one can't decide to go the week before and be successful.  Building and finishing one's own airplane is part of that commitment.

There isn't a single contest currently within a weekend drive to and from Colorado Springs, but I'm not on here whining, crying and complaining that someone needs to put on a contest here and everyone needs to jump in their cars and come out to fly in it.  That would be silly...

I am in near 100% agreement with your take.  The more we debate this issue the more I become convinced that both sides are right and that is the textbook formula for doing nothing.

     Both sides are right, and examples of both sides currently exist. 

Every stunt event in the country BUT the Nat's (to my knowledge) allows models that aren't BOM legal, and the inclusion of appearance points is at the discretion of the contest director.  I've flown quite a few contests over the years that omitted appearance points.  As Brett mentioned, practice can overcome a lack of appearance points but, in my own humble opinion: there is absolutely no reason that anyone concerned with appearance points can't build their own airplane.  There are no indoor CL contests in the winter months to take up building time.  A monokoted Sig Twister can be thrashed together in a week or less and can put a few appearances points up on the board. If you want appearance points, then build.  If you want to fly sooner, than buy.  You can pick your friends and you can pick your nose, but you can't pick your friend's nose.

Then there's the Nat's and, well, it's the Nat's.  It's the apex of CLPA in the US, and BOM and appearance points is part of the event at that level.  There's a reason you dont see figure skaters skating at the olympics in sweatpants and a hoodie.  Presentation is part of figure skating.  It's the same thing with appearance points in Event 322.  It's part of the event.

  Why not one for high flight score?  Just my thoughts.

Ken

Some places do.  Petition your local CD.

[Brent Williams]

*this is for laughs...don't freak out*

One should propose that THE builder of the model should be judged on his/her appearance as well, if the artistry and pageantry is part of being a complete modeler.  Break out the botox, hair dye and start with the ab crunches.  Winter building is about building muscle and making balsa dust, bro!
 Bring back the sabre dance whipping routines of flying the pattern while dressed the white polyester pants and nurses shoes.  All this should be worth 40 points too!   

[Matt Colan]

*this is for laughs...don't freak out*

One should propose that THE builder of the model should be judged on his/her appearance as well, if the artistry and pageantry is part of being a complete modeler.  Break out the botox, hair dye and start with the ab crunches.  Winter building is about building muscle and making balsa dust, bro!
 Bring back the sabre dance whipping routines of flying the pattern while dressed the white polyester pants and nurses shoes.  All this should be worth 40 points too!   

Summer bodies are made in the winter!

[Dan McEntee]

Interesting that people think the event won't grow because of BOM/Appearance points. There are very competitive ARF's available that will work at 99% of the contests in the country. Also, at the national's level except for open you can compete with a gifted/bought/ ARF airplane(0 appearance points). The 2 years I attended the Nats there were SV-11 Arf's/purchased aircraft in the top 10 in Advanced. Also, a 16 point airplane won open 3 years ago. It still is a flying comp in open and, if your good enough you can make the top 5 with a 14 point airplane. If You are commited enough to make the top 20 in open you have had the time to put in to practice. Building a airplane is a small fraction of that time commitment. 

My $.02

Tom

      There is quite a bit of truth here and I agree with Tom 100%. It's still all the same old arguments by a very small minority about one event that none of them attend. Then attracting and bringing in new blood gets brought up and the focus is put on kids. When kids are brought into the picture it is like having one foot nailed to the floor, things just go in circles back to the original starting point. We have an event that is pretty well defined and has been refined over the years to be as inclusive as possible to get new blood involved. You can't hold a gun to someone's head and make them like model airplanes of any kind. When you do get some kids involved, what happens to them? You can probably count the number of Junior and Senior Class entrants at the NATS since the year 2000 on both hands. And where did they end up?  Only two have posted to this thread. It takes a certain type of person to be "One of Us." It takes a certain "thing" in their DNA that draws them into this hobby and keeps them there. They are getting fewer and fewer, but there are still some out there. They may not even know what control line is, let alone what CLPA is, and all we can do is keep putting it out there for people to find and discover. The event is plenty inclusive enough to get them involved at a local level and get them started. Getting to the NATS level is just a matter of time and practice and knowing what you need to do to get to the pinnacle of the event. You can beg, borrow and steal models to get to that point and then you need to build and finish ONE model airplane, for ONE class at ONE event to get to the top.. Name any other event, hobby or endeavor where it is easy or even meant to be easy? Hell, even Golf is a game that you never really win, you just play to see who gets the lowest score. What we have in our event is really a pretty good thing. I have spent the better part of this winter digitizing Windy videos and watching quite a few of them It's been fun seeing some of the old familiar faces that we don't have with us any longer. These are the people that help put together what we have here and now. Those of us still haunting this planet and still involved with the event in any manor have a lot more runway behind us than we have in front of us. I think what we have in this event is solid and can last past us into the future if there are still people willing to do some of the work necessary to keep it going. Tearing anything down or breaking anything up in a feeble attempt to 'improve" things will just seal it's fate to dry up and blow away.
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[pmackenzie]

Remember we are talking about ONE contest per year. The NATS where BOM applies. If I am wrong let me know. If left up to me it would be ALL contests and 40 points. It should be worth at least one maneuver score not half MAX.

Brodak has BOM for advanced and expert, pretty sure some of the big west coast contests do as well.

[Brett Buck]

Brodak has BOM for advanced and expert, pretty sure some of the big west coast contests do as well.

   No. All the contests that I know about in the USA use PAMPA classes, which has no BOM, you lose appearance points for not building your own airplane, but you can certainly enter and compete.

   Brett

[pmackenzie]

   No. All the contests that I know about in the USA use PAMPA classes, which has no BOM, you lose appearance points for not building your own airplane, but you can certainly enter and compete.

   Brett

From the Brodak flyer:

Precision Aerobatics (1st Flight)
Four Classes…Beginner - Intermediate - Advanced - Expert (all ages combined)
BOM & Appearance Points for Advanced & Expert Models Only
Jr-Sr Trophies Awarded Separately in PA only

https://brodak.com/PDF/2022_Flyin_Brochure.pdf

Perhaps they mean that you only get the points if you are the BOM? But either way, BOM is "applied" in some respect.
And perhaps that is what Sparky meant when he said:

where BOM applies

If you don't get points then BOM "applies", but is not disqualifying. Two different things.

Not taking a position on either side of this, just trying to make sure everyone is on the same set of facts.

[Brett Buck]

Not taking a position on either side of this, just trying to make sure everyone is on the same set of facts.

     Indeed.

     The Builder of the Model Rule is a rule that *does not permit someone to fly an airplane that they did not build* (AMA Event 322, J/S/O)

     Skill Class Aerobatics (AMA Events 323-326) AKA Pampa Classes *permits someone to fly an airplane they did not build*  but does not award appearance points for models not built by the pilot. BOM does not apply, in fact, the entire scheme was specifically designed to give a rules alternative permitting people to borrow airplanes from others to add participation, while still rewarding people for their modeling craftsmanship skill.

     Virtually all contest in the USA, and in particular, all the "big west coast contests" (and all the little ones, too) use the PAMPA classes, event 323-326, there is no BOM in those classes. 

    Some contests in the East apparently use the PAMPA Classes, but also have a special rule that also does not award appearance points, which is a real shame. So, read the contest sanction papers and see what special rules apply.

    The Brodak contest is something I haven't and probably won't participate in (if for no other reason that it is 2800 miles away), they have completely independent rules that they come up with themselves. So, that not be "a contest I would know about" .

   The BOM as a concept is not in any way hard to grasp, and Skill Class Aerobatics are also, conceptually straightfoward. Neither is going to go away, time after time, in every possible way, 80ish percent of the participants want to keep it. And, in real life at contests, I have spent at total of about 3 minutes in 40ish years talking about it.

    Brett

     

[Howard Rush]

The design of the color scheme can get to overdone, crowded, poorly laid out etc.  That would detract from the "finish", along with pebbling, smears, wobbly straight lines that appear meant to be straight, curves that don't have pleasant execution-wobbly edges to no visible purpose,  lumps and bumps showing through the covering from construction faults, etc.

I take it you've seen my new airplane. 

[Howard Rush]

The builder of those ships was a new Boeing guy out from "back East" named Bob Emmett who quickly became a significant part of my life and counseled me on all things "stunt."  From that day on I was hooked and determined someday to be able to create ships just half as beautiful as Bobs...and, hopefully fly them as well as did he.

I was similarly in awe of the stunt planes I saw at the 1962 Nats.  I planned to get around to stunt someday.  That day came when I read your first magazine column, where you mentioned your mentor Bob Emmett.  "Hey," I thought, "I know Bob Emmett.  Between him and that new guy in town Walker, I'll bet I could learn stunt."

[Ken Culbertson]

Somehow this thread has drifted off into the BOM black hole.  Any chance of getting back to the intent of how we award those 20 points?  Here is all I can find in the rules:

"Judges shall exercise prudence in assigning points, and reserve excellent point values for those models which are decidedly above average."

Appearance has near the weight of any of the maneuvers, yet you have no control over it since every judge is free to determine what he/she considers average and where that number is in the scope of things. What does a zero look like?  What does a 20?  What gets extra points, what is simply expected?

Ken

[Paul Smith]

     Indeed.

     The Builder of the Model Rule is a rule that *does not permit someone to fly an airplane that they did not build* (AMA Event 322, J/S/O)

     Skill Class Aerobatics (AMA Events 323-326) AKA Pampa Classes *permits someone to fly an airplane they did not build*  but does not award appearance points for models not built by the pilot. BOM does not apply, in fact, the entire scheme was specifically designed to give a rules alternative permitting people to borrow airplanes from others to add participation, while still rewarding people for their modeling craftsmanship skill.

     Virtually all contest in the USA, and in particular, all the "big west coast contests" (and all the little ones, too) use the PAMPA classes, event 323-326, there is no BOM in those classes. 

    Some contests in the East apparently use the PAMPA Classes, but also have a special rule that also does not award appearance points, which is a real shame. So, read the contest sanction papers and see what special rules apply.

    The Brodak contest is something I haven't and probably won't participate in (if for no other reason that it is 2800 miles away), they have completely independent rules that they come up with themselves. So, that not be "a contest I would know about" .

   The BOM as a concept is not in any way hard to grasp, and Skill Class Aerobatics are also, conceptually straightfoward. Neither is going to go away, time after time, in every possible way, 80ish percent of the participants want to keep it. And, in real life at contests, I have spent at total of about 3 minutes in 40ish years talking about it.

    Brett

     

I have entered The Brodak many times.  They run Stunt by "The Book" all the way.  In advanced and expert stunt the models are lined-up on the lawn and judged by the same group of judges.  What could be fairer and clearer?

[Paul Smith]

I agree with the 40 Points.

Back in the day there was a 16-point FLOOR to the 40 points, so only 24 points were on the table.  So now it's 20 points.  The net difference is only 4 points.

The thing is that in the past you had to either actually build the model or get by with lying that you built it.  Now you just forfit part of 20 points.

[Brett Buck]

I have entered The Brodak many times.  They run Stunt by "The Book" all the way.  In advanced and expert stunt the models are lined-up on the lawn and judged by the same group of judges.  What could be fairer and clearer?

    Seems straightforward - but I also know that they also have had a variety of rules over the years, which has led to great confusion on occasion. In one particular incident over *exactly* what is being confused (or obfuscated) in this thread.

    Brett