ANZAC day

[Craig Beswick]

TO all the Australians and New Zealanders out there.

"Lest We Forget"

[cory colquhoun]

Thank you Anzacs !

                          “Lest we forget”

[Brett Buck]

  Unfortunately, a lot of people have forgotten (or never knew) about the various campaigns leading to the creation of ANZAC Day, particularly Gallipoli.  Worthy of some study, if so.

    Brett

[qaz049]

  Unfortunately, a lot of people have forgotten (or never knew) about the various campaigns leading to the creation of ANZAC Day, particularly Gallipoli.  Worthy of some study, if so.

    Brett

A mega bloodbath amongst many bloodbaths.

Attached is a very poor photo from one of our family photo albums. I suspect it was taken at sunset. It shows my maternal Uncle with his shipmates from the warship HMAS Australia in 1936, when it visited Gallipoli in Turkey. They are collecting the bones of Australian soldiers that have eroded from the makeshift graves on the hillside at what's called "Lone Pine". The monument is in the background.  The bones were sorted into individual calico bags for reburial.

[Brett Buck]

A mega bloodbath amongst many bloodbaths.

   Illustrating the tendency of the British Empire to use colonial/commonwealth troops as cannon fodder and/or putting them into situations with little support or forethought.  It happened to the Canadians a few times in WW II as well (like at Market Garden). Churchill, for all the good he did, was on about repeating Gallipoli or something like it in World War II, fortunately, saner heads prevailed - unfortunately only slightly saner, leading to the nearly hopeless Italian Campaign (the "soft underbelly") stalemate. Plenty of blame to go around on that one, of course.

    Brett 

[John Carrodus]

The whole affair was a bloody mess from go to woe. The Kiwis lost almost 3000 ( from approx 15,000 men) and the Aussies 9000 ( from approx 50,000 men). It was a steep mountainous, well defended bluff. Some sources say the ANZACs were given the crappy end of the stick, while the British and French were given flat beaches and rolling ground to take. Some say the landing crafts strayed off course and they were put in peril by mistake.
The fighting was uphill all the way - literally up a cliff. ( which was to be repeated in WW2 in Italy when the Kiwis almost took Monte Cassino - the Maori Battalion playing a major role, the Polish finally taking the Monastery.) The Kiwis, Aussies, Canadians, South Africans, French, etc went on to fight with the British and US in Europe until Germany fell. Each April 25th we have Dawn Parades to mark ANZAC Day. We remember them.

[Dennis Adamisin]

God Bless the brave ANZAC forces sacrificed at Gallipoli

[qaz049]

   Illustrating the tendency of the British Empire to use colonial/commonwealth troops as cannon fodder and/or putting them into situations with little support or forethought.  It happened to the Canadians a few times in WW II as well (like at Market Garden). Churchill, for all the good he did, was on about repeating Gallipoli or something like it in World War II, fortunately, saner heads prevailed - unfortunately only slightly saner, leading to the nearly hopeless Italian Campaign (the "soft underbelly") stalemate. Plenty of blame to go around on that one, of course.

    Brett

Ironically both the IJN at Guadalcanal in WW2 and the WW1 Leadership at Gallipoli relied on British Admiralty Maps. The topographical details of which stopped at the high tide mark. Both suffered greatly for this error. The whole campaign to force the Dardanelles would have been the single worst prepared  in British History even compared with the Malayan (Fall of Singapore .

Most of the Dominion Governments lost patience with Churchill as WW2  progressed and demanded full control back of troops subject to British command. The Norwegian campaign was under his control, St Nazaire Raid, Dieppe Raid, Greek Campaign, and parts of the Italian Campaign. The fall of Singapore was the last straw for the Australian Government.

In the Anglo-sphere History has rightfully judged him harshly. When the British kicked him out of office in the elections of 1945, he was asked by a journalist how he  thought  history would judge him. He said words to the effect that it would be kind to him, because he himself would write it. He did, with a team of salaried writers. This skewered the narrative. Modern writers take a more critical view of the "Great Man" theory of leadership.

[Brett Buck]

Most of the Dominion Governments lost patience with Churchill as WW2  progressed and demanded full control back of troops subject to British command. The Norwegian campaign was under his control, St Nazaire Raid, Dieppe Raid, Greek Campaign, and parts of the Italian Campaign. The fall of Singapore was the last straw for the Australian Government.

   The Italian campaign was very ill-conceived and served very little strategic purpose, and was a tactical failure. That's why it generated so many heroes (like the greatest of them all, Audie Murphy) - because there were many more opportunities for heroism. Just like Gallipoli - the more heroes, the worse the underlying plan. It also had some of the worst leadership. Mark Clark got a medal for it, he probably should have been court-martialed. Much like MacArthur.

In the Anglo-sphere History has rightfully judged him harshly. When the British kicked him out of office in the elections of 1945, he was asked by a journalist how he  thought  history would judge him. He said words to the effect that it would be kind to him, because he himself would write it. He did, with a team of salaried writers. This skewered the narrative. Modern writers take a more critical view of the "Great Man" theory of leadership.

      "Great" certainly doesn't mean "perfect" and not necessarily even "good". He was exactly the right man in exactly the right place at the beginning of the war. I think the British might have collapsed without him. By the end, he had nearly no influence on the conduct of the war, having been very deftly pushed aside by Eisenhower and Marshall, then quickly got voted out of office. After Market Garden, same with Montgomery - again, maybe a great man, but also because he happened to be exactly the right guy for the job in Africa. Another "great" man - Franklin Roosevelt. He was exactly the right guy in the lead-up to the war - but also perpetrated the evil of the New Deal, from which we (and the rest of the world) still suffers greatly.

   Compare and contrast to the genuinely good men of the same era - like George Marshall, who was very nearly the perfect public servant his entire life. You need both types.

    Brett

[Ted Fancher]

Thank you , Brett and all.

Pretty much exposed my insufficient knowledge of, at the very least, this episode of our past.  One wonders how our current "event" will be judged...if, in fact, there remains someone to reside in the judge's chair.

Ted

[John Carrodus]

Well put Ted. Let's hope so!