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General control line discussion => Open Forum => Topic started by: Steve Helmick on September 04, 2016, 09:14:02 PM
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I'm wondering just what aluminum alloy "Military Grade" might be. Seems to me like I've machined or inspected a lot of Military or AeroSpace parts that were made from a wide assortment of aluminum alloys, depending on the function. I reckon this "Military Grade" is just some Madison Avenue (or would that be Woodward Ave.?) invented buzzword. Sorry for the inconvenience, I've just been puzzling over this, and knew somebody here would know the answer. D>K Steve
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From what ad campaign is this?
I'll bet that if you're ordering siding for a temporary camp, 1001 is "military grade".
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Fjord Pickup truck ads. F-150's, specifically.
Yeah, the way I look at it, it all depends on the specification, & most anything can be specified by The Military. I'd bet they're most all in the catalog! Well, maybe not 7050-t7451, but who knows what the goobermint might want? ??? Steve
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I think Reagan obsoleted it with his off the shelf campaign, but at one point there was a mil-spec for brownies. Probably for instant mashed potatoes and condensed milk, too.
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I think Reagan obsoleted it with his off the shelf campaign, but at one point there was a mil-spec for brownies. Probably for instant mashed potatoes and condensed milk, too.
Yeah, I got that. One shop I worked at, we got a little job for the USN at the Bangor Sub base, Silverdale, WA. It was a semi-spherical bit, lathe turned from Aluminum Nickle Bronze, with a blind hole from the flat side and a cross-hole through. Would have been nice if we'd had a CNC lathe, but no such luck. They came out lovely, with a hand ground & lapped radius tool and very little hand work on the finished parts. Then, I spent about 4 hours reading Mil-Spec rules to see how to package it. Luckily, the purchasing agent at Bangor called and inquired. "We've got the parts done, and you'll like them, but we're trying to figure how to package them so as not to offend the Mil-Spec inspectors." Turned out they really didn't care at all about that. And I really can't recall how I made them. I may have one around here, because I know there was a spare, and the shop went TU shortly after. If I find it, I'll bring it to Salem for your entertainment. LL~ Steve
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Don't know but if it's good enough for the Bradley Infantry Fighting Vehicle (also aluminum) it's good enough for my pickup. Yup, bought one, awesome vehicle. Ecotec turbo so far is an incredible engine. 8)
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Well to what's already been said I would only add that probably the most common Mil Spec aluminum used by Aerospace for machined parts is 6061-T6. It's a medium-High Tensile strength aluminum that takes anodizing readily and is fairly easy on tools when machining. It also can be formed and bent to somewhat sharper radisus than the higher tensile strength stuff such as 2024-t4. High strength parts are often made from 7000 series 7075 probably being the most common. It is not so easy on tooling due to it's high silicon content and does not anodize as readily, and does not form or bend very readily without cracking, but is used in a lot of aircraft wings and fuselages where high tensile material is needed such as gusseting etc. For cast parts there is a myriad of choices but most are similar in content and strength to the first two mentioned.
Randy Cuberly
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Take it from an Aircraft Inspector, Mil-Spec aluminum is whatever the military specification calls out for... it's that simple. It isn't a one fits all spec.
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It's ad hype bologna. I'm sure Ford makes a fine product... but just like GMC's "Professional Grade", or Dodge's "Ram Tough", etc. It's all smoke n' mirrors with a catch phrase.
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Regarding mil-specs, I heard this line years ago: An elephant is a mil-spec mouse.
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Ford probably buys it's aluminium To a mil spec #. I myself have used 6061-T6 aluminum. Where the false advertising come in is that the aluminum Ford uses is not certified by the government to meet the mil speck. On the other hand the aluminum manufacture may be a government certified supplier and guaranties that all it's products meet the mil-speck. The real falsehood in the advertising is that mil-specks covers all type of aluminum from hard as a rock to the dead soft - the add does not specify what Ford is using. LL~
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Ford doesn't say its MIL SPEC , it says military grade.
Not the same thing at all military grade is just a marketing catch phrase. A lot better than pop can grade aluminum?
Since FORD buys right from the foundry, they can make it what it needs to be.
They don't give the alloy to prevent mindless discussion about why they should have used something else.
They have some smart people working there (including my mechanical engineer son) and a lot of the metal forming processes are a need to know type information.
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They also say things like " you could save up to seven thousand dollars or more!"
Which also means that you could pay double bust-out retail and the ad hasn't been a lie.
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The only FORD parts I own are 6 Model T spark coils. Now, I only need the rest of a "T".
Floyd
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My younger brother had a F-150 of steel body make up. He traded it in, in rather short order, due to the issues he read about related to the Eco-Boost engine. His truck spent some time in the shop related to some sort of drainage issue on the intake ducting/aircleaner system or some such. He can be a worry wart when it comes to most things. My take on it is if you want V-8 like power...buy the proven technology of the ole' V-8. He's now driving a Dodge RAM 4X4 Hemi powered.
And the alum. body thing?..ha. Here in Ontario we put enough salt on the roads to corrode anything and everything. Time will tell on the Ford Mil Spec body thing. I'am somewhat waiting for something to come from the "dis-similar metals" discussion group, ha ha. Of course Ford have worked out all the possible issues right? na#
T.
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Porsche 356 engine cases (and heads) were cast of 356 T6. (Hmmm...356?)
I have used 6061 to death...but now choose a different path.
My 1927 Model T Touring and 1927 Model T Roadster insist on Genuine Ford parts, but hardly anything post 1948!
Oh, my Ford truck is of 1955 vintage, F100. (no F150 stuff here!)
I have some McCoys, and some other stuff...
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Allways thought FORDS were how you got across a RIVER . But got across a river in a LEYLAND . But thats another story .
Someone got around a lake in one , put an outboard on the back . :## LL~. ;D .
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-niWd67zqYAY/UYC4kQ9e7MI/AAAAAAAAGbY/JnHGuuAwsc8/s1600/brut-1.JPG)
If you sprayed the underside with OIL , after steam cleaning , before and after winter , like a certain pom with a MGB , it willnaye ROT .
Main Fing'd be to keep the salt outta the seams . The Electro Phosphoric paint trip these days , stops the salt if you get parked in a Spring Tide . :-X
Thissisa 87 250 six with a Yamaha Designed alloy head . With headers & a freeflow zorst , imperial 32 mpg out west . ( only about 27 US Gal. :()
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My one and only Ford was a 1936 coupe that I drove every day to school (USC Los Angeles). That was in 1951, so the Ford wasn't very old!
Floyd
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Take it from an Aircraft Inspector, Mil-Spec aluminum is whatever the military specification calls out for... it's that simple. It isn't a one fits all spec.
I don't think anyone said it's a one fits all spec. For my part I'm speaking as a senior Engineering stress analyst that was employed in Aerospace for over 40 years. I'm one of the guys that did the specifying as to what goes where!
I certainly agree that there is no one fits all specification, but there are generalities in what is specified according to needs and cost! The generalities I mentioned cover most of what is used. Certainly not all. I will say that Automotive manufactures often have their own specifications for materials but in general they use what is most commonly available that will do the job consistently. More often than not that is one of the materials mentioned in my previous post.
Randy Cuberly
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I don't think anyone said it's a one fits all spec. For my part I'm speaking as a senior Engineering stress analyst that was employed in Aerospace for over 40 years. I'm one of the guys that did the specifying as to what goes where!
I certainly agree that there is no one fits all specification, but there are generalities in what is specified according to needs and cost! The generalities I mentioned cover most of what is used. Certainly not all. I will say that Automotive manufactures often have their own specifications for materials but in general they use what is most commonly available that will do the job consistently. More often than not that is one of the materials mentioned in my previous post.
I had assumed that it was 6061 of some temper, mostly because it's reasonably tough and relatively inexpensive. I would assume most if not all the other grades are too expensive.
Brett
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This has nothing to do with ford trucks, but I have had a customer for years, that I make chambers ( special size boxes ) from 1100 series aluminum.
They are doing research with cryogenic, trying to reanimate cells and organs. When I started making the chambers they were the size of a bread box,
at the time they were working with rabbits, the last ones were for pigs about 4' x 3' x 2'. The thing about 1100 series is it is pure aluminum and very soft
0 condition, but it conducts heat/cold better than any other aluminum, or so I was told.
W.W.
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Well...my guess was that the Fjord F-150's are made of 6061 (Brett and I agree!), but was kinda sorta hoping that somebody would know for a fact what it was. Relatively cheap, 6061 is relatively easy to weld, and malleable enough at any HT spec. to be hammered back into shape if the need arises. I'm just curious about this. I figure Big Art or one of his kids would know.
Sometime back in the '90's I machined or inspected a Boeing casting that was 356 T6. Surprised, I did a little research, and found that darned near anything made of cast aluminum was made from 356 T6. Yes, there are some high silicon alloys used for weird stuff like Vega blocks and AAC Enya pistons, but that's pretty rare stuff. Also found out that if you wanted a particular extrusion & alloy, you'd best plan ahead, 'cause they only make so much a year of something, and you may have a tough time finding what you require. God, I miss Boeing Surplus! y1 Steve
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I had assumed that it was 6061 of some temper, mostly because it's reasonably tough and relatively inexpensive. I would assume most if not all the other grades are too expensive.
Brett
Most parts that are manufactured from aluminum alloys such as 2014,2024, 6061 and 7075, started their existence in the "O" (annealed "soft") condition. 6061-O and 7075-O Billet does not machine very well, however in the T-6 (heat treated "tempered") condition it machines nicely. Referring back to the O condition, aluminum sheet can be shaped into almost (reasonably) any type of form. Once the desired shape is achieved, the part will receive a heat treating process I.A.W. engineering specifications. The most common material (aluminum) use to manufacture airframes that still use aluminum, is 2024 T-3. The alloys 6061 are common to high strength components. Most 7075 I've encountered was found in the numerous fighters and high performance aircraft that I have worked on. 6061 is very weld-able along with 5052 and 1100, however 7075 and 2024 are not. Anyway, back to the original question...I believe this is what "Military Grade" (MIL Specifications) means.
Norm
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One mo' thing....I was shocked to find how much heavier 7075 was than 6061. It's all the copper content, also explains why it's more expensive to some extent. Another part of the extra cost is that 6061 typically doesn't come with "certs", which is the paperwork that traces that particular lump, while any "aircraft" grade is normally accompanied with that paperwork. Paperwork costs money. I hate paperwork, but there was that one time when they gave me something weird to machine and I wouldn't touch it until they got me a copy of the MSDS. I liked that! Dumbasses should have gotten it with the material... LL~
6061T6 is your garden variety commercial grade aluminum. Most of the aluminum I machined during my last 10-15 years of my life as a machinist was 6061. It's gummy and doesn't machine real well unless you have good cutter selection and much attention to chip control (getting chips out of the cutter and on their way). If your average aluminum gizmo isn't cast, it's very likely 6061, so IMO, it's a joke for Fjord to call it "Military Grade" if that's what they're using. Nevertheless, I know it's just advertising crap. y1 Steve
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see
http://finance.yahoo.com/live/ford
Yahoo Finance will have an exclusive livestream from Ford headquarters in Dearborn, Michigan as the company unveils its new Fusion Autonomous, Ford's first self-driving vehicle. The special coverage will include behind the scenes access to a test drive of the new Fusion, live interviews with Ford CEO Mark Fields and Executive Chairman Bill Ford on stage at the event, and a 360 video tour of the Ford F-150 aluminum plant. Yahoo Finance will bring you exclusive coverage of what's ahead for the company, the new technologies in the pipeline and insights into the transportation of the future. Check out all the coverage live on Yahoo Finance September 12 and 13th.
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What are these college supposedly educated people thinking? I think too many people are relying on all the safety features of new vehicles and that is why there are more accidents. The new vehicle the wife is driving has a screen that shows up when the car is put in reverse. She then asks me why I still use the mirrors when backing up. She has already been hit once while backing up.
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What are these college supposedly educated people thinking? I think too many people are relying on all the safety features of new vehicles and that is why there are more accidents. The new vehicle the wife is driving has a screen that shows up when the car is put in reverse. She then asks me why I still use the mirrors when backing up. She has already been hit once while backing up.
I think we'll agree, Doc, that what we really need is better drivers. Or more to the point...fewer crappy drivers. I'm constantly amazed that there aren't more wrecks than there are. People don't seem to know the rules of the road, or they just don't care. It's a scary ("me, me, me") world out there! R%%%% Steve
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My "Ford" 2004 Mustang is about 70% Military Grade Plastic,fiberglass LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~
Doors and fenders are Military grade Tin LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~
Ed
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2016 Ford crash photos.
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Sorry, Steve. I've become a Dodge guy, myself.
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Randy, I hope your Dodge is better than mine was. If it didn't start on the first try, it wouldn't start, for an hour or more. I took off the automatic choke and put on a hand choke. Turned it into a reliable starter, but a cold-blooded beast. I also had to carry around a 2 lb ball peen to smack the crap out of the rear brakes when they locked up in cold weather. Looked like it was made on NYE, too.
I know "your" Dodge has EFI and 4 wheel discs, so with any luck, it will not have those problems. But I can't imagine that it won't have other problems. OTOH, they all seem to have some sort of problems. The more complex they get, the less reliable they are. Much of that is directly related to government mandates. No big surprise there. :o Steve
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My Ford PU (1940) has strong enough steel to deflect that tool box.