P-47 Scale Model

[Dave Hull]

Here is a P-47 scale model that came into a club members hands, and we don't know anything about it, really. It was pretty nicely done probably more than 20 years ago--but that's just a guess.

It is control line, but unlikely that it has ever been flown. There is no wingtip line guide, for example. And the controls seem to have some geometry and smoothness issues beyond just age-induced problems. The engine that is only partially screwed into the mounts is a McCoy .19 complete with a spark plug. No, not a glow plug, and no it has no ignition setup. The prop would appear to be a display-only unit, made by splicing two wooden 2-blade props together and reshaping to Juggish outlines.

The structure, including the wing is fully planked.

Was this likely a kit? Perhaps by Berkeley? Or maybe a Musciano design?

It is nice enough to look at, so I started cleaning it up a bit. (The photos are the "before" condition.) I haven't touched the detailed cockpit yet.

It sure would restore the looks if I had a new set of decals that would replace those on the model, as they are in really rough shape. Not just insignia, but a lot of the placard/stencil labels that military planes get.

Dave

[Dan McEntee]

   A wild guess of mine is it's a Berkeley/SIG kit, but the wings don't look quite right. Have you pulled the plug to verify it's a spark plug?  Old early Champion glow plugs looked like spark plugs, but had a full "idle bar" piece of wire across the element.  Spark plugs, of course, gad a center and side post with a gap. I have a set of cufflinks and tie tack made with Champion glow plugs on them. I can't remember the number on the percaline, VG something, will have to dig some out.
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[john e. holliday]

I say go for a restoration.  Might be fun to fly.

[wwwarbird]

 I'd bet Berkeley/SIG also, and estimate it as at least a 30 year old build. It's very well done, I'd hang it on the wall and admire it's vintage just as it is. At this point any refinishing work would completely ruin the cool factor IMO.

[Dave Hull]

It is a handsome little model, for sure. Someone put in some effort when they built it. But it looks like it was always going to be a display model, with a number of omissions and shortcomings in the actual flying features. I really can't see doing the kinds of things needed to make it safe to fly and it would be a shame to bust it up in a crash....

That said, it seems like a gentle restoration of simply putting identical decals back on would be respectful. No way am I going to entertain repainting it. Paint just isn't my thing....

Good catch on the glow plug, Dan. It is a Champion VG-2 with the idle bar wire. Shockingly, the engine is not frozen up, but wasn't really bolted in, either. Just kind of trapped by some baffles with one screw installed. And some glue put in two of the holes to "stake it down" to the mount. Since it wasn't bolted down, I had to pull the engine to loosen the plug to avoid breaking things. Once out, I could see that the backplate was installed 90 degrees from where it should have been. It was thoughtful of McCoy to print "UP" right on the backplate so that the flow passage in the backplate lines up with the case bypass.

The wingspan is about 26-1/2" if that helps with identification. I saw one advertised Berkeley kit that called out 32-3/4" wingspan in the description. Maybe another hint is that the depth of the fuselage below the wing seems shallow?

Dave

[Trostle]

Dave mentioned that this could be a Walt Musciano design.  I have a listing of all the Musciano airplanes.  He had a 1" = 1',  41" wing span published American Modeler, Sept, 1961.  .19 - .60 engines.  Musciano also did a 3/4" = 1' model in the Air Trails 1954 Annual.    For .14 to .35 engines. 

I am not sure what scale was for the Berkeley kit of the P-47.  I am pretty sure that Musciano did not have anything to do with the Berkeley P-47  (A bit off topic but according to Musciano's listings, the only Berkeley kit that Musciano did was the P-38 with carved nacelles.  The Berkeley P-47 kit design was likely from some other source.)

Keith

[Miotch]

Great find !!  That is so cool as is, even with decal deterioration.

[Tom McClain]

The engine is a McCoy 35 and the backplate in on sideways.  It needs to  be reinstalled for proper airflow to the cylinder.  Walt Musiciano did a P-47 and there is a good chance this is one.

[bill bischoff]

By the wingspan and the way the cowl opens, it is from the Top Flight CL scale kit with the molded fuselage shells. This ID was made possible thanks to my 1970's era Kit Plan Book. How many of you know what that is?

[Mark Gerber]

I've got a copy.  Picked it up at the '83 NATS in Chicopee.

Coincidentally, this photo just showed up on eBay.  No information in the posting, just the picture.

Mark Gerber

[Dan McEntee]

By the wingspan and the way the cowl opens, it is from the Top Flight CL scale kit with the molded fuselage shells. This ID was made possible thanks to my 1970's era Kit Plan Book. How many of you know what that is?

    I have both editions of the book, the blue cover and the pink, might even have two of each. I also have the Top Flite kits , the Berkeley kit, and the SIG kit. I just didn't think of the Top Flite kit as being the origin of the model.

  Type at you later,
   Dab McEntee.

[Dennis Leonhardi]

    I have both editions of the book, the blue cover and the pink, might even have two of each. I also have the Top Flite kits , the Berkeley kit, and the SIG kit. I just didn't think of the Top Flite kit as being the origin of the model.

  Type at you later,
   Dab McEntee.

Dan, where do you store all that stuff!?!

 

[Ara Dedekian]

     Here's my Berkeley P-47 built in 1959 also powered with a McCoy 19. The fuselage planking is what determines that it's a Berkeley kit.
     I think Berkeley referred to it with a fancy name but it is rounded planks that Sig referred to as 'rounded edge planking'. The concave bottom fit into the convex top of the next plank.

     My Sig kit shows it's a Don McGovern design with a 32.25" wingspan. Knowing nothing about flying a pattern, I built in stunt flaps only because I saw them in the magazines. It flew round and round quite well but met it's demise because the Dacron lines in my Thimble Drone 1/2A U-reely handle, attached to the steel flying lines, broke. (What did I know back then?)

    PS - Those were the days when a brushed on dope finish was possible.
     
Ara

[wwwarbird]

That said, it seems like a gentle restoration of simply putting identical decals back on would be respectful. No way am I going to entertain repainting it. Paint just isn't my thing....

 I'll say it again..."I'd hang it on the wall and admire it's vintage just as it is. At this point any refinishing work would completely ruin the cool factor IMO."

 Clean it up a bit maybe but leave it at that, don't change a thing, it's a great time capsule.

[Brett Buck]

By the wingspan and the way the cowl opens, it is from the Top Flight CL scale kit with the molded fuselage shells. This ID was made possible thanks to my 1970's era Kit Plan Book. How many of you know what that is?

This was the first “big” model I ever flew. My dad built it and used the previously-mentioned modified McCoy 29 RR. Way too much pull for me, fortunately the engine quit before it got away from me.

Brett

[wwwarbird]

By the wingspan and the way the cowl opens, it is from the Top Flight CL scale kit with the molded fuselage shells.

 Forgot about that one, sounds like Bill has it pegged?

[Fred Cronenwett]

make sure the leadout guide is in the right place to have at least 2 or 3 degrees of line rake.

Scale models typically do not do any aerobatic stuff, seeing as how it does not have throttle it's going to fly fast, be prepared to whip the model for landing when the engine quits.

The four blade prop is for scale effect only, put on the proper 9 or 10 inch 2-blade prop, make sure you have enough clearance.

I am so use to flying with throttle control the best I can say is do a short tank of fuel for the first test flight and perhaps have grass nearby just in case.

If the model has the 32" or smaller span it's the older type of model from that era that was small, the average size that we are building now for CL scale is larger (45" or larger). I have a friend with a 65" span P-47 with an OS-90 four stroke, flaps, retracts and throttle. The flaps on the model you have are just for looks, I am guessing they are either just drawn on with an ink pen and do not actually move with the elevator.

Fred

[Fred Cronenwett]

If remember right the top flite kit from era was the P-47N, that explains the shape the wingtips!

Fred

[Dan McEntee]

   The SIG version was the first big airplane I ever flew. It was one my cousin Joe Paul started as some therapy for a hand injury he got at work. He was a member of the Yellow Jackets out of Art Schaefer's Hobby Shop and lived in Afton. He got about half way through it, screwed up the wing, and tried replacing it with one built up in layers from solid balsa. My little brother Jim and I finished it up with the custom planking that has been described and slapped on what ever dope we had. There was a McCoy of some flavor that we got from some where and it was fitted, along with a tank. No landing gear, and I don't think we even put the canopy on. There was a large grass field at a nearby church and that was where the first flights happened. I don't remember anything about the lines but they were steel and longer than the 1/2A lines that we had been flying. The engine was fired up, Jimmy launched it and I was airborne!! I still remember the pull, was not expecting it, and I remember that it was just so positive and solid. I get that feeling just about every time I fly a model today!! I flew it a couple of times, probably 4 or 5 minute flights. Then let my brother have a turn. he could fly, and I really don't remember what happened, but his flight only lasted about a lap or two. Something might have broken in the controls, who knows. We were greener than a pool table felt!! But that is when the bug of the big models bit me!! I still have the plans that came with the model when my cousin gave it to us, and have spent the better part of my adult life looking for another one before I found it. Then I found a Berkeley version. The TopFlite kit was acquired along the way also and I have the Musciano plans  with a canopy for it. I think Musciano did a couple different scales but not real sure.  Hey Dennis!! When I was a kid, we didn't have much money, and my Mom raised 9 of us by herself, so I spent a lot of time looking for things. Soda bottles, quarters laying in the parking lot of the IGA, , any piece of junk that I thought would be useful to me. When I started out on my own I kept on looking for anything that I wanted as a kid, and have been doing that for almost 50 years!! And I started back when a lot of this stuff really didn't mean anything to any one. Working at the hobby shop for 35 years or so helped a lot because some stuff found me!! Everywhere I went I was looking during this time. Newspaper adds, toy shows, swap meets, garage sales. Then eBay came along and I got a lot of good deals on there when it had just started. I belonged to a lot of clubs and had a lot of friends along the way to clue me in if something came up. All this time I was reading anything I could find and buy, listening to the old timers stories and learning as much history as I could along the way. To me, having the stuff doesn't mean much with out knowing the history behind it. When Dave Thornburgh came out with his book, "Do You Speak Model Airplane ?" , that filled in some gaps and stoked the fire even more. The magazine and book collection really took off and I am as proud of that as I am anything else that I have. I learned to never pass up a good deal, and the time to by something is when you see it, and just tried to be prepared for that at all times!!

  Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee

[Paul Wescott]

Hi Dave.  You might try Callie at “Callie Graphics” for new labels.  Figure out what the scale of your orphan is and if Callie has ever done graphics for that model (pretty safe bet) she can scale you a set.  You might even get to choose from several color schemes and trim levels (a row of fake bullet holes would be cool).  Keep up the good work!

Paul

[Juan Valentin]

    Hello Dave
                          The plane is a top flite Superform P-47N looking at the plans it shows a detachable top cowling. here is a pic of the fuse plan.
                                                                                                                                                                   Juan

[Juan Valentin]

By the wingspan and the way the cowl opens, it is from the Top Flight CL scale kit with the molded fuselage shells. This ID was made possible thanks to my 1970's era Kit Plan Book. How many of you know what that is?

          Hello Bill
                          I had not seen your post and I got to the same conclusion after looking at the top flite and Berkeley P-47N plans. I have both of the kit plans books issued by tha AMA compiled by Frank Ehling. They were a gift from my friend David Duren for helping him by building an r/c Goldberg P6E and an ACE all star. He taught me on how to fly radio control in 1980.
                                                                                                                                                                                       Juan

[Dave Hull]

Some followup:

--This particular plane has about a 26-1/2" wingspan.

--There are no moving controls except the elevators.

--It is fully planked everywhere.

--The engine is a McCoy .19 Redhead, which sure looks to be un-run. No idea why the backplate would be installed incorrectly. Unfortunately, to get the display prop on, the drive hub was removed (and lost....)  No needle valve and no hole in the cowl for one. Again, display model status.

--The is no line guide, and as far as I can tell, never was one.

--The canopy is pretty trick. It is installed in an open position and you can easily see the rails, and everything else in the cockpit. I haven't cleaned that up yet, and getting a closeup with an iphone is a challenge.

--The removeable cowl top looks just like the plans that Juan posted. It has a straight pin inside going sideways for a rubber band hold-down--just like the FlopTite plans suggest.

--The picture of the control installation on the elevator is just as odd/rough as it looks. Clearly not assembled by someone with any real flying experience. The bellcrank motion is "rubbery" as well, suggesting that thru the friction and squeaking, that the pusrod flex on the outside might not be the only location with issues. Another reason to believe it has never been flown.

My thought remains that this was built by someone who had built a lot of plastic models and had skills for detailing, painting, cockpit building, etc. But little to no skills in building the systems into a flyable plane. Another possible theory is that it was his very first wooden flying model, and he had crazy abilities to do so many things so well....

Dave

[Fred Cronenwett]

The model is slightly larger than a modern 1/2a scale model. CL scale models use to be smaller than 30". Then throttled engines were available, then have a separate fuel tanks and install a 3-line bellcrank for throttle control and that means the models get larger. Frank Beatty built a model in the 45" span range years ago and someone told him he was building ... "giant scale".

I often wonder what people would think if they saw the size of planes that we are flying today

Fred