Vertical Eight Exit Point

[Brendan Eberenz]

As relatively new fliers, my son and I are working on some of the maneuvers beyond the Beginner Pattern. As I review the Vertical Eight rules (picture below) the maneuver ends at the intersection point in an inverted position. To get get upright it seems that the process is to finish the bottom half loop OR stay inverted and half outside loop at the next pass. For most flying vets, finishing the bottom half loop is rather simple, however, with a 10 year old, finishing that half loop may finish the plane. I wanted to figure out...  1) how MOST fliers get upright after the vertical eights and 2) if both options are acceptable. Thanks.    - Brendan

[Peter in Fairfax, VA]

Well, since two vertical eights are needed, plus the entry and exit parts, you actually pass through the bottom loop aspects three times, twice through the upper.  I'd say that most learners tend to adjust where the intersection between the upper and lower loops is placed, as well as the shape of the intersection.  The shape for a less skilled pilot on a vertical eight, as well as an overhead eight, may resemble an X instead of two lines.

To answer your question, I've never seen a competitor move the vertical eight exit away from the maneuver, nor have I seen the exit in the opposite direction.

[john e. holliday]

As he has done two vertical 8's just keep going until at bottom and level off.   

[Ken Culbertson]

One of the things I look for in the V8 when I am judging is the early exit which shows up with the last 1/2 loop being much tighter than the others and usually entered before the ship gets horizontal.  I have to watch carefully to make sure that the plane reached level before the exit.  It is legal to put a flat leading up to the entry and following the exit.  I keep mine very small but they do put an exclamation point as to the planes attitude.  The size of the loops and the relationship to 45 degrees is very important in the learning process. 

I would shy away from any process that teaches anything except proper shapes and elevations.  SO, that leaves open the entry and exit.  Nothing wrong with stretching the exit out a bit and maybe climbing up a bit before that final 1/2 inside.  That should be for a very short time though.  You don't want to train your brain that way.  That turn is no different from the 2nd half of a loop or the two insides you just did in the V8. 

What I see in new pilots mastering the verticals is a floating intersection.  It is hard enough for an Expert to hit 45 on the way down from the top and the tendency is to overlap with both loops being too big or doing a "snowman" with the top loop too small.  That can put you at about 40 degrees on the exit and that can be scary to a newcomer.

Another thing you might try is to demonstrate to yourself just how tight your plane will turn.  You might be surprised.  Go up to about 30 degrees and do a couple of progressively tighter loops to blead off energy then on the third one give it full control.  You will be shocked how tightly the plane will turn.  This is just about how it will respond in the 8 if you ask it too and is one of the things I do on the 1st trim flight after I get it leveled and the CG right.

This is just one way.  I am sure others will weigh in.  We all flew combat when I was a kid and I didn't learn the pattern till I was 13.  Inverted and tight maneuvers were natural by the time I approached the pattern.  Ted has written *allot* about "Holistic Visualization" (my words not his).  You might read up on his theories, they work.  Especially if you can learn them as a kid! 

Sorry to be so long winded - Good Luck - Ken

[Tim Wescott]

Brendan, my suggestion is to teach him to exit in upright level flight, but make it high.  When you're learning you should make it big, make it high, and try to make it climb.  As he gets better, he can work on getting the altitude of the intersection and pull-out consistent.

[pmackenzie]

As a flyer, I say practice to make the exit at the bottom in level flight and fly the half loop like it matters.
 As stated previously: you did this full bottom loop once already, so a second time should not be a problem.

If you think you are too low, for example if the wind blew you out in the top loop, then continue the outside loop a bit more so you can climb inverted
giving you enough room to obey the first rule of stunt flying: " Don't crash the model".

This will also help obey the second rule :" Don't scare the judges".

Judges on the other hand should stop judging when you go from outside to inside 180 degrees before that.

Pat MacKenzie

[Ken Culbertson]

After re-reading your first post and all that has followed I am of the conclusion that you need to use the Snowman until you get feel of the maneuver.  Two reasons.  Both of Pat's rules apply here.  First having the intersection a bit higher, and I am not saying you should go real high with it but say 50 degrees, will let you learn to get the plane to the top of the circle so you get the mental training of where directly overhead really is and also let you learn how to find intersections without thinking about how hard the ground is at the bottom of that 8.  If you learn to fly to the intersections, all you are going to have to do later is make the first loop smaller and the rest will happen automatically.

Some other free advice.  Don't get into the trap of thinking Up is Down, Down is Up.  That will get you convicted under Pat' first rule.  Think like you have the top of a control stick - Pull for inside, push for outside.  Watch the plane and ignore the ground and you will never get confused which control to give it.

Ken

[Brendan Eberenz]

Thanks for all your advice. I also wonder how or if the judges would hold the unofficial bottom half loop against us if we didn't complete it like most people do. Yes, it shouldn't factor in to scoring, but even if we are technically correct in getting upright a different way after the full maneuver, doing something different than others could make the judges rethinking how good the official maneuver was. Essentially, if we look odd immediately after the stunt, then the mind shifts to thinking we must have been odd during the stunt. Stop me if I am overthinking this (I can't help it, I am a Psychologist).

[Brendan Eberenz]

I like the snowman idea and focusing on getting the top of the 8 directly overhead (as it's supposed to be). Focusing on getting it high will hopefully give us the cushion to keep it out of the ground! Thanks.

[Ken Culbertson]

Thanks for all your advice. I also wonder how or if the judges would hold the unofficial bottom half loop against us if we didn't complete it like most people do. Yes, it shouldn't factor in to scoring, but even if we are technically correct in getting upright a different way after the full maneuver, doing something different than others could make the judges rethinking how good the official maneuver was. Essentially, if we look odd immediately after the stunt, then the mind shifts to thinking we must have been odd during the stunt. Stop me if I am overthinking this (I can't help it, I am a Psychologist).

Actually you have hit a very large nail with a big hammer!  Judges, well most of them, are human and a lot of things that are not in the rule book or judges guide do influence score.  What you observed is 100% true.  Although I have been told that I am full of it by some pretty good flyers I have always contended that the reverse wingover is an 80 point maneuver.  40 in the rules and 40 from the tone it establishes for the rest of the pattern.  I know this from my own flying.  I am capable of a 40 point RWO on one flight and a 20 pointer on the next.  It has haunted me since I was a kid.  I nail it and I am in a zone, blow it and it is just another pattern to finish.   You are lucky to have grasped the simple concept that it is better to give a judge a reason to give you points than to give him/her a reason to take them away.

Ken

[EddyR]

 Not mentioned here but I think the flyer can enter in the eight at the 45 angle doing the inside loop first and the exit after the outside loop at 45 degrees.  It is much easer doing it this way.

[Steve Helmick]

I've never seen anybody enter/exit the V8 except from/to level flight, so I would not suggest trying any other entry/exits. I doubt if the judges will look favorably upon any alternatives. Perhaps would get out the rule book to see if others are even allowed, slowing the contest to a halt...not good. 

I've seen a lot of not so wonderful V8's, and have personally crashed more from the V8 than any other maneuver. IMO, it's a pretty tricky trick!  Steve

[phil c]

Thanks for all your advice. I also wonder how or if the judges would hold the unofficial bottom half loop against us if we didn't complete it like most people do. Yes, it shouldn't factor in to scoring, but even if we are technically correct in getting upright a different way after the full maneuver, doing something different than others could make the judges rethinking how good the official maneuver was. Essentially, if we look odd immediately after the stunt, then the mind shifts to thinking we must have been odd during the stunt. Stop me if I am overthinking this (I can't help it, I am a Psychologist).

You're not overthinking it.  Most judges you will fly in front of are, shall we say, not highly trained.  At most contests they are flyers from another class that might be flying.  So, rather than surprise them, do exactly what the book shows.  Start with the half a loop, then start the maneuver with the upper outside.  Recover from the send eight by simply completing the third pass at the bottom loop.  With practice you can astonish the judges with how smoothly round the loops are and how precise the elevations are and how spot on the intersections are.

[pmackenzie]

You're not overthinking it.  Most judges you will fly in front of are, shall we say, not highly trained.  At most contests they are flyers from another class that might be flying.  So, rather than surprise them, do exactly what the book shows.  Start with the half a loop, then start the maneuver with the upper outside.  Recover from the send eight by simply completing the third pass at the bottom loop.  With practice you can astonish the judges with how smoothly round the loops are and how precise the elevations are and how spot on the intersections are.

First loop is the bottom inside one, not the upper outside

You do a half loop to enter, then a full inside loop, then a full outside, another full inside, another full outside to the exit, then a 1/2 inside to recover to level flight.

(Full disclosure - since I have not flown any Control line, let alone an F2B pattern, this year due to Covid  ,  I had to confirm this by checking the rule book )

[EddyR]

 Starting 1n 1957 until 20 years ago the runebook showed entering at 45 degrees and the older  rules states you may do the inside or out side first. I did not suggest anyone change how they were doing the V eight just mentioned how it may be done.   Did anyone look at the rules?

[john e. holliday]

Just came from the rules for precision aerobatics.  According to what I read and see from level flight you do a complete inside loop and going in to outside loop on the top.  Do a full inside loop, actually a loop and a half going into out side loop on top.  Once the second outside is done continue on to a half inside to level flight.   Scoring starts and stops at the inter section.   At least this is the way I was taught and have done.   Now the vertical 8 for old time is different in that the vertical 8 is started and ended  3 vertical 8's at level flight  Of course old time ahs different points to start the vertical 8.  Just noticed there is no vertical 8 in the beginner class.   

I suggest that anybody flying stunt spend some time reading the rule book.  I also noticed the suggestion of scores for each skill classes.

[Trostle]

I did not suggest anyone change how they were doing the V eight just mentioned how it may be done.   Did anyone look at the rules?

Just what Pat  Mackenzie just wrote.  It is not a question about "how it may be done".    From the rule book:  Vertical eights are to be started at the point of 45 degrees elevation and finished at the same point in inverted flight.  The inside loop must be flown first."  That means the first inside loop is the bottom loop of the figure and is started in the inverted position.

The rule book is mute on how and when the inverted flight at the beginning of the maneuver is to be attained other than the diagram suggests the entry is a half inside loop, though the rule book does not require or suggest that this is mandatory.  In the same manner, the rule book suggests the exit is followed by a half inside loop, though the rule book does not require or suggest that this is mandatory.  It only makes sense to execute the exit as a bottom of an inside loop just as the bottoms of the previous two inside loops were flown during the maneuver.   Then you are already at the "normal flight level" preceding the entry of hourglass.  There seems to be little need to make it any more complicated than that.

Keith

[john e. holliday]

Looking at the diagram posted on the AMA rule book the 8 is started from normal level flight as viewed from the pilots position.  But then again maybe I do need glasses, but eye doctor says wait until after catarac surgery.

[Trostle]

Looking at the diagram posted on the AMA rule book the 8 is started from normal level flight as viewed from the pilots position. 

The diagram in the AMA rule book shows the start arrow of the vertical eight to be at the intersection of the figure.  That means the model is inverted in the intersection at the start of the vertical eight.  The rule book does not specify how that position is to be attained.  The diagram "suggests" that a half inside loop from normal level flight is a method to get inverted at the start in the intersection, but the words do not require it.  The only requirement is that the model be inverted in the intersection where that is the start of the figure.  The errors section of the figure explains that it is an error if the "Model is not horizontal at entry."  It does not need to be made more complicated than that.

Keith

[EddyR]

 It was just a teaser to make you think a little out of the box.    Here is how it was originally written in 1957
 " Vertical Eights (2 Req'd.): Entered at 45° point, exit from same point. Either inside or outside loop may be flown first. Correct when model makes two eights, each 2 round circles or loops of same size, tangent to each other, in vertical line. Enter in inverted flight, be horizontal at intersection point or tangency of circles. Eights must be symmetrical, tops at point 5' less than 90° directly above flyer's head, bottoms at normal level flight altitude. Diagram #11."
 "Errors: Model not horizontal at entry. Entry not within 2' of 45° point. Tops of eights not 3-7' less than 90° point. Bottoms not at 4-6' height. Loops not round, equal. Point of intersection varies. Second eight not in same position."
  The 1957 rules are the same except they say you can do inside or outside first. Both new and old rules require inverted flight for start of stunt at 45 degrees. What I said about entering at 45 Degrees is correct.
Ed