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Author Topic: Anniversary of Flight  (Read 4137 times)

Offline Tom Niebuhr

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Anniversary of Flight
« on: December 17, 2012, 09:50:02 AM »
This date is lost to most of the public. The Wright Brothers made the powered aircraft flight at Kitty Hawk, NC on December 17th.
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Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Anniversary of Flight
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2012, 10:08:56 AM »
The French did it almost a year before.  n~

Charles
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Anniversary of Flight
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2012, 10:31:50 AM »
Oi!  Controversy rages.

I think the Wright Brothers can claim to the first sustained, controlled, powered flight.  Yes, other people made hops (and with as much energy as was being put into it at the time, someone was going to get there around that time).  But the Wright Brothers were the first put all the pieces together.
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Anniversary of Flight
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2012, 10:38:38 AM »
Oi!  Controversy rages.

   Please ignore the troll. Not even the French claim this, it's just more gibberish. The French were absolutely amazed by the performance of the Wrights in 1908, they had nothing remotely comparable.


I think the Wright Brothers can claim to the first sustained, controlled, powered flight.  Yes, other people made hops (and with as much energy as was being put into it at the time, someone was going to get there around that time).  But the Wright Brothers were the first put all the pieces together.

   Arguably, the 1902 glider should be considered the real "first flight" since that was the first time that full control was achieved. The powered part was almost anti-climactic.

    Brett

Online Matt Colan

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Re: Anniversary of Flight
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2012, 10:39:16 AM »
Oi!  Controversy rages.

I think the Wright Brothers can claim to the first sustained, controlled, powered flight.  Yes, other people made hops (and with as much energy as was being put into it at the time, someone was going to get there around that time).  But the Wright Brothers were the first put all the pieces together.

They were also the first to patent such a device..

If only the Wright brothers could see what airplanes are like today and how much their simple design has grown
Matt Colan

Offline Larry Renger

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Re: Anniversary of Flight
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2012, 10:51:25 AM »
One of them, I don't recall which did get to fly in a jetliner.
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Anniversary of Flight
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2012, 10:54:51 AM »
One of them, I don't recall which did get to fly in a jetliner.

   Orville, but it was a Constellation, not a jetliner.

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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Anniversary of Flight
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2012, 11:08:10 AM »
They were also the first to patent such a device..

If only the Wright brothers could see what airplanes are like today and how much their simple design has grown

And yet, just about every airplane flying with the exception of some ultralights use the Wright Brothers' essential invention of 3-axis control based on altering the geometry of the flying surfaces with respect to the aircraft (yes, the Wrights did it with wing warping and wholly pivoted surfaces, where most planes today do it with ailerons, rudders and elevators -- but you sure don't see jetliners that steer by shifting weights around).
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Offline Andrew Borgogna

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Re: Anniversary of Flight
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2012, 11:37:49 AM »
Here is a piece of airplane trivia.  The Wright brothers held the patten for wing warping and coupling the rudder to the wing warping for coordinated turns.  But did you know that the patten for ailerons was held by Alexander Graham Bell, yep the same guy the invented the telephone.  He form a company to get into the airplane business and hired Curtis (of Curtis pusher fame) can't remember his first name to be his pilot.  They couldn't use wing warping because the Wright's had a patten on it so they came up with ailerons, and Bell's name is on the patten.
Andy
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Anniversary of Flight
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2012, 11:46:59 AM »
Glenn Curtis.  And yes, the aileron came about because of the grand Western tradition of Dodging the Other Guy's Patent.

It took a few years, by the way, for people to figure out that ailerons are (usually) best mounted at the trailing edges of the wings, not in between the wings of a biplane.
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Offline Trostle

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Re: Anniversary of Flight
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2012, 12:28:10 PM »
I am not trying to start any controversy here, but----

There are some that claim that Gustave Whitehead flew a powered aircraft in Connecticut several years before the Wright Brothers first flight.  There has been some serious research into this and the concensus is that those claims are false.  Nevertheless, Whitehead did have some accomplishements in those early years of aviation.  Interesting reading on Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustave_Whitehead

KT

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Anniversary of Flight
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2012, 02:05:56 PM »
There were many, many people making progress in aviation around the turn into the 20th century.  It may even be accurate to say "hundreds" if you include the people who look like crackpots to us now, but who weren't that far off of what little was known at the time.  Gustav Whitehead was one of many.

There's an interesting note about Whitehead and the Wrights and the politics of the time: Langley was head of the Smithsonian, and doing experimentation in aviation around the same time as the Wright Brothers.  When he failed, he tried to suppress the work of the Wright Brothers as well.  This created so much bad blood between the Wright family and the Smithsonian that when they donated the Wright Brothers materials to the Smithsonian it was with the stipulation that the Smithsonian would never do anything to undermine the Wright's precedence in manned flight.  In the 1970's, the proponents of Whitehead used this to form a conspiracy theory, claiming that the Smithsonian was bound by its agreement with the Wright family to undermine what they were claiming was Whitehead's valid claims.
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Re: Anniversary of Flight
« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2012, 02:32:08 PM »
I'll take Neiburh's word for it...I think he was there....

Offline Douglas Ames

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Re: Anniversary of Flight
« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2012, 03:43:02 PM »
I think Charles Taylor's contribution to Aviation and his sad plight after the war is just as notable and historic.
He lived until 1956 when the B-52 was state of the art.

Charles Taylor designed and built the engine for the Wright flyer with hand tools.
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Offline Mike Keville

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Re: Anniversary of Flight
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2012, 06:32:11 PM »
The French did it almost a year before.  n~

Charles

As always, an absolutely absurd comment.
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Re: Anniversary of Flight
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2012, 06:34:50 PM »
Found this on a web site.
http://www.wrightstories.com/kittyhawk.html#Home%20for%20Christmas

They sent a telegram home with the exciting news of their success. According to their niece, Ivonette Miller, who was 7 in 1903, the children were more excited that Wilbur and Orville would be home for Christmas. She recalled that they said something like:

"Oh, goody, Uncle Will will be home in time to carve the Christmas turkey!"

Amanda Wright Lane, the great-grand niece of Wilbur and Orville, speaking at the Wright Memorial in Dayton on the occasion of the annual Wreath-laying ceremony commemorating the 102nd anniversary of the first flight said:

"The Wright family was thrilled to learn about that first flight, but they were happier yet to know that meant the boys, great cooks, would be home in time for Wilbur to stuff the Christmas turkey and for Orville to make his cranberry bunny, served at holiday meals."

They arrived home the evening of Dec. 23 in time for a merry family Christmas.

-----------------------------------------
I also heard the story that the guy in the telegraph office missed the message about the brothers flight and was glad to hear they would be home for Christmas as well.
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Offline Norm Faith Jr.

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Re: Anniversary of Flight
« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2012, 10:15:48 PM »
I think Charles Taylor's contribution to Aviation and his sad plight after the war is just as notable and historic.
He lived until 1956 when the B-52 was state of the art.

Charles Taylor designed and built the engine for the Wright flyer with hand tools.


The process (he helped developed) used to heat treat the aluminum engine block, is still the mainstay of today's aluminum engine industry. Precipitation heat treating.

Side Note: I remember reading somewhere, that after the Wright's plane had crashed, killing the first passenger and person;  Lt. Thomas Etholen Selfridge; that Glenn Curtiss, secretly climbed under a tarp covering the crashed plane to discover the method of how the wings were being warped, thus leading to the development of the aileron.
Just something I once read or heard. H^^
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Offline Andrew Borgogna

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Re: Anniversary of Flight
« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2012, 10:30:29 PM »
I had the very good fortune a few years back to visit Kitty Hawk and climb to the top of Kill Devil Hill and look out over the landscape where it all took place.  As someone who loves all things that fly, with the possible exception of mosquitoes, it was a thrill of a life time.  The monument that was erected to the what that took place there is very fitting for the mans first power flight.  If you are ever in the area take the time and go visit Kitty Hawk, you will not regret it.
Andy
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Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Anniversary of Flight
« Reply #18 on: December 18, 2012, 01:27:40 AM »
   The Wrights and Glenn Curtis were fierce competitors in the early days of aviation. I feel that Curtis brought a lot to the table of advancement with his back ground in high performance engines. He already had a great reputation as a builder and racer of motorcycle and held many records. This back ground gave him the understanding that any airplane engine needed to be light, powerful and reliable, and his early engines fit the bill.  Where the Wright Brothers were pretty much content to rest on their laurels after their early notoriety, Curtis was was always looking to improve and to go faster, farther and higher. The basic Wright Flyer didn't change for several years, and the rapid advancement on both sides of the ocean soon past them up. Think about the time frame for a minute. The Wrights first flights were in 1903, and World War One started in what, 1917? That is just 14 short years and look at the advancement in performance at that time, and the Wrights were pretty much out of the picture. It's been a while since I read anything on the subject, but I think that the Wright Flyer in the Smithsonian isn't the original Wright Flyer. I think the original went to France for demonstration purposes, and the first air races, and what was left of it after the European tour was turned over to the Museum when the First World War was immanent and the Wrights struck their deal with them do donate the airplane and reconstruct the display airplane using original parts. I think there is a stipulation that if the Museum ever acknowledged an others as achieving the first flight before the Wrights, then the ownership of the Wright Flyer reverts back to the Wright family. It was an interesting time and this thread makes me want to break out some books and brush up on the history, but I think I'm going to go to bed instead!
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Re: Anniversary of Flight
« Reply #19 on: December 18, 2012, 04:55:59 AM »
Mustn't forget their achievements in the wind tunnel and propeller efficiency.  y1
Here's a few interesting pics....

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Wes Eakin

Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Anniversary of Flight
« Reply #20 on: December 18, 2012, 11:02:01 AM »
Interesting stuff?
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Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Anniversary of Flight
« Reply #21 on: December 18, 2012, 02:36:57 PM »
The three key elements of the Wright Brothers' success:

1.  An engine with a power-to-weight ratio that stomped anything previously available.
2.  Big props, geared down to let both the props and engine run at optimum RPM, still a MUST in powered flight.
3. A catapult.  To this day the key element in naval aviation.  Their 1600-pound dropweight catapult could have thrown a Lazy Boy sleeper couch farther than their airplane "flew".  The brothers experienced more G force than an F-4 pilot.

The original flying machine now resides in the Warp Museum in Nebraska.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2012, 05:37:28 AM by Paul Smith »
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Offline Chris McMillin

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Re: Anniversary of Flight
« Reply #22 on: December 18, 2012, 03:23:36 PM »
Hey, I remember this date. It's kinda important!

The catapult and the 20 mph wind at Kittyhawk is what made the flight possible as the engine at the 1903 point of evolution wasn't powerful enough for a sustained flight. Wilbur got 900 yards out of it before they balled it up and came home.

Dan, WWI started in 1914, c'mon!

Chris...

Offline EddyR

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Re: Anniversary of Flight
« Reply #23 on: December 18, 2012, 05:15:30 PM »
Many years ago Model Aviation had a article about Gustave and were very favorable about him. I found the article interesting and did some research at that time. The one thing that I did find as mentioned by Tim is that the Smithsonian had to agree to the Wrights demands that Gustave name or his possible flight would never be mentioned. They would loose the flyer if anyone associated with the Smithsonian ever acknowledged him at all. The Wrights demanded the same about several others that were involved in early aviation. One thing I did find out about Gustave was his plane from 1901 was a good design as replicas did fly but his later designs were not very good. He may have lucked unto the correct configuration and did not understand it well enough to move forward as the Wrights did. I doesn't seem all that important now who did it first. Back then the Wrights were looking for patent's to stop others and they were very successful.
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« Last Edit: December 20, 2012, 11:29:20 AM by Ed Ruane »
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Offline Bob Heywood

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Re: Anniversary of Flight
« Reply #24 on: December 18, 2012, 07:46:29 PM »
Perhaps the most important thing the Wright brothers accomplished was developing the first comprehensive body of knowledge on aeronautics. They rigorously applied the scientific method and systematically solved each of the elements necessary for sustained and controlled powered flight. Some of the pioneers got some of the answers and some just tinkered at trying to get something off the ground. The Wrights put the whole package together with proper documentation.

After Kittyhawk, the Wrights returned to Dayton and continued their work at Huffman Prairie. By 1905 they has effectively solved the problems and validated powered flight. The land used by the Wrights is still largely as it was. It is within the boundaries of WPAFB but is accessible to the public. This place is hallowed ground.

The 1903 photo is said to be the most copied and published photo ever.
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Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Anniversary of Flight
« Reply #25 on: December 19, 2012, 10:01:34 AM »
Hey, I remember this date. It's kinda important!

The catapult and the 20 mph wind at Kittyhawk is what made the flight possible as the engine at the 1903 point of evolution wasn't powerful enough for a sustained flight. Wilbur got 900 yards out of it before they balled it up and came home.

Dan, WWI started in 1914, c'mon!

Chris...

   Hey, I might have been sick that day when they covered that in History class! At least I got close! In the year or two leading up to the 100th anniversary, they had several neat displays at Oshkosh. One was a group that had a display of the different Wright engines. Most were replicas, but one was an actual Wright constructed engine, and was the 9th or 10th engine they built and they ran it several times over the week. I wish I could remember all the little details of the thing but it was amazing. I'm sure google could turn up something on it. The other was a flight simulator that Microsoft had of the Wright Flyer that you flew in the same position as the original. Quite difficult but I managed to get a few circuits in around the patch on it after a few tries. In addition to the Model Aviation article, there was an article in an old American Modeler about Whitehead that is very interesting. Hi engines were powered by acetylene, if I remember correctly. Cliff Robertson sponsored a build of a replica of his design at one time I think. I think his control was largely weight shifting and was the biggest limiting factor of his design, I think. Once you got airborne in it, what do you do then?
    Early and pioneer aviation is pretty cool when you actually think about what was done and how they did it.
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Offline Norm Faith Jr.

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Re: Anniversary of Flight
« Reply #26 on: December 19, 2012, 08:36:12 PM »
Early development and advancements in aviation can be summed up with the following: "Well...that didn't work...go tell his wife."
« Last Edit: December 20, 2012, 07:13:25 AM by Norm Faith Jr. »
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Offline Serge_Krauss

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Re: Anniversary of Flight
« Reply #27 on: December 20, 2012, 01:01:10 AM »
The catapult and the 20 mph wind at Kittyhawk is what made the flight possible as the engine at the 1903 point of evolution wasn't powerful enough for a sustained flight. Chris...

Chris-

I'll have to take issue with that. Note revision necessary here, due to a lame brain in early morning hours...No catapult was used at Kittyhawk. To use one would have violated the Wright's principles of leaving no work or achievement open to question. However, The Huffman Prairie catapult had nothing to do with sustained flight. It allowed a plane without wheels to get off sandy rough ground in a reasonable distance in a restricted space. Once airborne, the catapult was history - it had no effect. At Kittyhawk, the engine that the Wrights designed along with the propellers that the Wrights invented (yes, invented) provided the thrust necessary for sustained flight. The wind reduced the ground speed necessary for takeoff, but once in the air, it also greatly reduced the distance traveled; the air distance was much greater than the ground distance. This was for safety reasons as well. The reason the plane came to earth when it did was that flight had been achieved, and a safe landing on the first flight needed to be assured. With porposing at low altitude and perhaps some divergence in the gusts, discretion was in order. So a rough landing. But they flew more and progressively further that afternoon.

The Wrights believed in a control-configured, rather than stable configuration, probably mostly in response to Lillienthal's death in a weight-shift plane in which he had inadequate control. That's what they meant by "controlled" flight. The Wrights had to teach themselves to fly in a very methodical way over many glider flights, but their plane required concentration to control. That it flew straight in gusty weather in which the wind could not have remained steadily along their path is a testament to their control. They deliberately flew low and slow in a plane that under ideal conditions could have turned at higher altitude.

They took a step backward the next year, before recovering late. They were then soon circling their field at Huffman's Prairie in flights of many minutes eventually approaching an hour, and landing at will. They were unable to press forward much while promoting and guarding their discoveries and waiting for the U.S. to purchase their plane, which didn't happen for too many years. By the time they flew in France in 1908, they had had fully balanced control and great range for 3 to four years. The Europeans, who had mocked them because they hadn't put on aerial displays, were absolutely shocked and made them heroes. When Bleriot barely flew the channel, the Wrights had been capable of that feat for years.

The Wright's feat was complex and the result of perhaps the most systemmatic, disciplined, and patient series of hypotheses and experiments I've ever encountered. They never worked precipitously, even knowing that Langley was preparing to attempt flight. They were indeed visited by more than one person who reported their schemes to others, including Curtiss. At least one of these people pretended to make friends, while their friend Chanute pressed for them to share secrets freely before they had been given credit and any reward for their hard work and expenses. On one occasion he even published privileged information they had shared with him.

I have my doubts about the alleged prohibition of facts about Caley, Stringfellow, or any of the others. The Wrights' complaint was well grounded in the Smithsonian's assertion that their guy, Langley, had created the "first plane capable of controlled, sustained flight" - which was obviously untrue. Langley's was not even as controllable as his model might have become, it was structurally unsound (proved), and it did not create sufficient lift. Glenn Curtis fraudulently rebuilt Langley's "Aerodrome" with his own control and lift modifications that made it marginally able to get off the water, as he did Gouple's and other planes, with the sole intention of discrediting the Wrights. When the Smithsonian would not back down on its claims that Langley was first, Orville Wright (the surviving brother) sent the "Flyer" to England, and it did not return to this country until the Smithsonian capitulated during the year of Orville's death. In view of that battle and the Smithsonian's bad faith, I don't blame Orville for getting a legal document, which I doubt prohibited anything except false claims concerning who was really first.

The Wrights had to perfect their plane and guard its secrets while spending much time defending their patent. THIS slowed their experimenting. In fact, their achievement of the first soaring flights in history at Kitty Hawk only came several after their original Kitty Hawk flights. Then Wilbur died during the litigation and the spark went out. Progress was fast, and the Wright configuration, despite modifications in favor of speed and stability, fell behind. Curtiss-Wright, just like Edison-General Electric, was the fruit of a bitter battle. I do not blame them at all for defending five years of courageous, systemmatic research for no gain. They were the first to fly controlled, and they deserved the recognition and some financial reward. Just how fair would it have been for them to have invested all that time and ingenuity, only to have Glenn Curtiss reap the profits?

The "Frenchman", Clement Ader, who "flew" did so in an ingenious contraption, too complex to control, especially by someone with no valid idea how to do so. He did indeed get barely off the ground while crashing out of control about a decade earlier. I'm a fan of his efforts, but see his achievement as very small compared to the Wrights', and  ultimately just one of a number of truly unsuccessful attempts. Richard Pearse of New Zealand probably came closest "flying" further, but again apparently without any control. He lived though.

Each year at this time there is some denigration of the Wrights, and I used to flood the forums with listings of their accomplishments and method. You can find some very interesting stuff with the search engines for SSWF, SH, or the Nurflugel list, where you'll also get a lot of wisdom from NASA's Al Bowers. Anyone who wants the real story may read any of several fine, well researched and written Wright bios and analyses from the last couple decades or - even better - look up their entire papers on the internet and see how marvelous their method and accomplishements really were. It's all there to see and enjoy on photographed pages. They were spectacular engineers and scientists who had a marvelous synergy.

Note: this is my third attempt to get pictures totalling less that 1000kB to be accepted. 'guess I'll take out another...

« Last Edit: December 20, 2012, 11:09:12 PM by Serge_Krauss »

Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Anniversary of Flight
« Reply #28 on: December 20, 2012, 05:48:34 AM »
Serge,

Wow! Thanks for that information. I do know a Historian who has writter and who has had 30 books published , some on Aviation. He actually has done work for the Smithsonian on some Aviation subject. I think I'll give him a call and ask a few questions.

Serge,

Here's your first photo, reduced from 200 dpi's to 72 dpi's. See if there's a difference.

Some cameras can be set for "internet" photos at 72 dpi's. I think?

Thanks again for taking the time to post that information.

Charles 
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Offline EddyR

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Re: Anniversary of Flight
« Reply #29 on: December 20, 2012, 11:28:40 AM »
Serge
 With respect for all your effort your statement here is rather easy to disprove.
"I have my doubts about the alleged prohibition of facts about Caley, Stringfellow, or any of the others. The Wrights' complaint was well grounded in the Smithsonian's assertion that their guy, Langley, had created the "first plane capable of controlled, sustained flight" - which was obviously untrue. Langley's was not even as controllable as his model might have become, it was structurally unsound (proved), and it did not create sufficient lift. Glenn Curtis fraudulently rebuilt Langley's "Aerodrome" with his own control and lift modifications that made it marginally able to get off the water, as he did Gouple's and other planes, with the sole intention of discrediting the Wrights. When the Smithsonian would not back down on its claims that Langley was first, Orville Wright (the surviving brother) sent the "Flyer" to England, and it did not return to this country until the Smithsonian capitulated during the year of Orville's death. In view of that battle and the Smithsonian's bad faith, I don't blame Orville for getting a legal document, which I doubt prohibited anything except false claims concerning who was really first."

This link shows it

http://chrisbrady.itgo.com/pearse/smithsonian.htm

Also Karl Jathro flew several months before the Wrights but he did not have there expertise at controlled flight
Ed
 
 

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Offline EddyR

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Re: Anniversary of Flight
« Reply #30 on: December 20, 2012, 11:48:34 AM »
This is a very long article but if you take time to read it all your thinking about Whitehead  may change quite a bit

http://www.historynet.com/gustave-whitehead-and-the-first-flight-controversy.htm

I don't know who flew first and it doesn't mater to me. Some are very passionate about it and maybe this will help in there quest for the answer.
Ed
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Offline Serge_Krauss

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Re: Anniversary of Flight
« Reply #31 on: December 20, 2012, 05:18:28 PM »
Well, first I should recant one statement. Late at night - very late - I'd forgotten about the iconic rail that was so laboriously laid out upwind for the 1903 "Flyer" at Kitty Hawk. The plane did roll and take off there without a catapult. The catapult was used at Huffman's Prairie to eliminate the need to continually move and re-install the rail for take-offs in limitted space, until they finally added wheels.  I should never have "forgotten" this, since it was in the Wrights' characters never to leave their work and results open to question. So Chris' statement becomes a mute point anyway.

Ed-

Except for whether Whitehead actually flew in controlled flight before the Wrights, I'm not sure where your disagreement lies, other than perhaps advocating the tone of the first article you cite. I had read the second one (in Aviation History ). The first contains some inaccuracies, but does say what I said I believed regarding the restrictions ensuring that the Wright "Flyer" remained at the Smithsonian. It does seem somewhat charged with resentment toward the Wrights in it's use of the words "conspiracy", "covetted", and "intervened", which appear to me to be literally false as well as prejudicial. The long article otherwise scores well though. I have read contemporary remarks and Wm. O'Dwyer/Stella Randolph's "History by Contract" about Whitehead. They have often swayed me, but so many contradictions in reports have left me pretty skeptical there. I do think of him as a true pioneer, regardless of whether he was really successful. My opinion comes here from a pretty wide base of reading and lurking in old libraries.

Again, regarding the link that you said makes my statement "rather easy to disprove," I cannot find anything that proves anything other than we both characterize the Smithsonian-Wright agreement the same way. I disagree on other facts and tone though: in all my reading,  I have seen no evidence of Orville's "intervention" (no one would move such a precious item during the war anyway) or "covetting". Langley's position at the Smithsonian seems contrary to anything either of the Wrights would ever have wanted anyway; that would go against the literature and character sketches of the pair. Their character and personalities are fairly well recorded and backed up by their actions throughout their lives. I have read several articles and booklets by a somewhat bitter Notre Dame professor, A. F. Zahm, who seems to have lived to discredit the Wrights, through allegiance to Curtiss and/or feeling snubbed by them during their intense efforts at flight. This article seems to follow that sort of bias, and that bias does not inspire my confidence in its tone nor characterizations. The contract and wording is as I described it, and it was originally specified many years earlier in direct reaction to dishonesty regarding Langley. Whatever Orville did in his old age, contrary to either article, he is still not considered the "brain" of the two. I believe that his mechanical pragmatism and drive were well suited to Wilbur's theoretical and organizational strengths, despite their arguments. Regardless of his personality in old age, he clearly did not believe that Whitehead had flown, and it is just as clear that if the Wrights ever met the man, they used none of his aeronautical ideas. They had a history of developing from scratch and re-engineering their own ideas, having found that they could not even trust their foundation of data from Lillienthal's work. They turned down offers of technical help. Manley, on the other hand, went straight back to Langley with Wright information.

Overall, I base my opinions on a rather broad reading in the earliest aviation. I have read about and have as extensive a file on some of these pioneers as was possible for me to obtain over a couple decades of haunting public, NASA, Smithsonian National Air and Space Museum, and university libraries. In addition to my library, I have Ader's patents and articles about him, Pearson, Yatho, and the rest, including many contemporary accounts, like Smithsonian papers and yearbooks covering Langley. While I am inclined to give Whitehead and Pearse some credit, my scientific and historical perspective from this overview pretty much supports things as I've presented them. I will however revisit Whitehead though by re-perusing my "History by Contact" book. It's pretty hard to penetrate the revised histories so often presented as fact. I view the Whitehead book as sincere though. - SK

Offline Serge_Krauss

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Re: Anniversary of Flight
« Reply #32 on: December 20, 2012, 05:29:58 PM »
OK,...deletion of a redundant post, of original mistakenly quoted when editing was attempted. - SK
« Last Edit: December 20, 2012, 06:09:19 PM by Serge_Krauss »

Offline Serge_Krauss

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Re: Anniversary of Flight
« Reply #33 on: December 20, 2012, 05:31:15 PM »
Wow, that worked (on the second try!). So...deletion of a redundant post, of original mistakenly quoted when editing was attempted. - SK
« Last Edit: December 20, 2012, 06:10:24 PM by Serge_Krauss »

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Anniversary of Flight
« Reply #34 on: December 20, 2012, 05:36:54 PM »
Serge knows what he's talking about.  If anybody's interested in the whole, real story, I recommend this book: http://www.amazon.com/History-Aerodynamics-Machines-Cambridge-Aerospace/dp/0521669553/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1356049785&sr=8-1&keywords=history+of+aerodynamics+anderson  The author was a famous aero professor at the U of Maryland and is now equally famous as an aeronautical historian.
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Offline Serge_Krauss

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Re: Anniversary of Flight
« Reply #35 on: December 20, 2012, 05:45:49 PM »
OK, I give up!

I've deleted my redundant last two posts several times, but they won't go away. I can't report them, because a message says that reporting one's own post "doesn't make sense." These are here because I hit the wrong key when attempting to correct the original and ended up copying it instead. I think I'm drowning in my own words here. I have deleted my erroneous posts in the past....?

'found a compromise solution. It seems that something must be typed in the window
« Last Edit: December 20, 2012, 06:12:51 PM by Serge_Krauss »

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Anniversary of Flight
« Reply #36 on: December 20, 2012, 05:55:08 PM »
Don't worry about it.  I read all three and don't regret having done so.
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Offline Douglas Ames

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Re: Anniversary of Flight
« Reply #37 on: December 20, 2012, 07:38:05 PM »
AMA 656546

If you do a little bit every day it will get done, or you can do it tomorrow.

Offline Serge_Krauss

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Re: Anniversary of Flight
« Reply #38 on: December 20, 2012, 11:07:10 PM »
Yes,  a very good read, and Charlie Taylor was quite a guy to have around!

From the article: "And, as with their aircraft, the brothers began with a mathematical description of the problem, however inadequate. An index card preserved in the Wright papers gives the formula for torque, horsepower and rpm."

Here's the picture I removed to get reduce my total picture load for inclusion above. 'might be that card...

Offline EddyR

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Re: Anniversary of Flight
« Reply #39 on: December 21, 2012, 07:32:27 AM »
Serge
 Your deep interest in the early pioneers of flight can be seen and appreciated. Thank you for your effort.
I had your type of interest but in electronice many years ago. Today you would think RCA invented most of the Radio and TV ,FM from the 1930's onward yet they just crushed others achievements into I never heard of them category. I don't think anything has been taken away from the Wright Brothers by this discussion. I am surprised that fake pictures have not been brought forward to show someone flying in the 1890's It would be easy to do today's technology. ~^
Ed
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Offline Serge_Krauss

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Re: Anniversary of Flight
« Reply #40 on: December 22, 2012, 01:17:27 PM »
Thanks, Ed. Interestingly enough, Dad worked for RCA from about 1935 to 1947 in his first secure job out of high school. He designed vacuum tubes, amplifiers, broadcast equipment, and in the war, submarine detectors, bomb sites, anti-aircraft gun guidances things, etc. Among other things, he designed the sound equipment for the theaters that premiered Disney's "Fantasia" in 1938, I think. The reason I was born in Indianapolis and have attended so many "500's" is that RCA moved it's secret government projects to the old Stutz factory in Indianapolis to avoid spies and shelling from U-boats that came up river from the Atlantic. 'great stories of the time. RCA was pretty big then. But as you say, the big guys often eclipsed other worthy ventures.

SK

Offline Chuck_Smith

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Re: Anniversary of Flight
« Reply #41 on: December 24, 2012, 07:51:52 PM »
What makes the Wright's achievemnt even greater was that the Wright Flyer is statically unstable. I Found this out during my final exam in Stability and Control at UB. Dr. Rae gave us the data and we had to do a Bode plot for the Wright Flyer. I was panicked during the exam because I couldn't get a result that made sense. So with 15 minutes left I raised my hand and got waived down to the Doc who was proctoring his own exam. I went over what I had done and explained that his data had to be wrong. He just smiled a little and told me hand in what I had, it was adequate.

After the exam was over he came clean.

It was a dirty trick. But it explained why the first day of flyign for the Wrights ended up with a PIO that broke off the canard!

Chuck
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Offline Chuck Feldman

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Re: Anniversary of Flight
« Reply #42 on: December 25, 2012, 12:19:47 PM »
Tom,

  Thanks for that reminder. Did you know that the arguing that is so common here would happen? Even the first reply is reprehensible.

Chuck
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Offline Steve Thornton

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Re: Anniversary of Flight
« Reply #43 on: December 26, 2012, 02:55:51 PM »
Tom I think that you threw a piece of bloody meat into a cage just full of hungry tigers! Thanks for the reminder of such a historic occasion...what would we have done with our lives if they couldn't see past bicycles?
Hope to see you 01-01-2013!
Steve Thornton
"Most of us won't make it out of this world alive."
Steve Thornton


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