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General control line discussion => Open Forum => Topic started by: Ty Marcucci on January 06, 2025, 07:07:09 PM
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At tonights club meeting two of our members said they saw on local news that the AMA was going to declare backruptcy. Anyone else heard this? D>K
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Wow. Hope that is not true.
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There are a bunch of AMA's. American Medical Association, American Marketing Association for starters. No mention of any of them on the Web. Where were they that the local news would even know what our AMA was?
Ken
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It talked about our academy.. Saying no one was joining, or they were leaving and the membership was going down.. I guess the monthly catalog isn't paying the way.
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It talked about our academy.. Saying no one was joining, or they were leaving and the membership was going down.. I guess the monthly catalog isn't paying the way.
I am not sure why anyone would be surprised by that, of course it is going down. That doesn't mean they are going bankrupt. But (just like we had in PAMPA) they should *stick to the task* and not keep trying to expand and expand their empire with ever more desperate and off-mission activities.
It's not supposed to be a business, it is a service organization. Of course that ship sailed a long time ago, expanding their scope until it collapses wouldn't be a huge surprise. It also collapses if there is not a constituency to service.
Brett
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According to data the AMA has filed for 2023:
Income: $9,093,789
Expenses: $10,015,829
Net Income: $922,040 (operating loss)
For 2022 the operating loss was $984,382
For 2021 the net income was $125,021
For 2020 the net income was $177,199
The data is available on ProPublica. You can also view the Form 990 Federal Return for this tax-exempt 501(c)3 organization.
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Is AMA still self insured? Have they touched their nest egg for payouts?
Funny thing is, I was just thinking about something like this after the kid got hit by a drone during that public display and had to be rushed into surgery. Not sure if an AMA pay out type situation...
Wouldn't it be ironic if the drones that were supposed to save AMA financially ended up bankrupting them.
Either way, I know I am getting way ahead of myself, but if AMA does go under for some reason, is it going to make the Nats a roaming contest again? Will there be a Nats? Should PAMPA request transfer of the trophy before it gets caught up in the assets?
EricV
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Funny thing is, I was just thinking about something like this after the kid got hit by a drone during that public display....
That was a commercial drone from a Dallas based drone show company. I have watched some of their shows locally. It is really amazing what they can do BUT if you take 100 drones you have 100 ESC's 100 Receivers, 100 batteries, 400-600 motors 1600-2400 prop blades thousands of solder connections and any one of them can cause a midair if they fail. Then there are .....Birds.
As fun as these shows are I am surprised this doesn't happen all the time.
I am pretty sure AMA is clear on this one - Ken
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I don't know of course but somehow I doubt there is any truth to this. I am under the impression they may have benefitted from one or more large donors in the last couple years. They spent a tremendous sum just re-doing the Lpad and have set in motion huge renovation plans for the site just in the last year or so. I don't see how any of this could/would have happened if they had been on the brink unless they borrowed the money to do this-and I doubt that. I'd bet this was mistaken identity or idle speculation. I know that up until two or three years ago any talk of a major makeover of the Lpad was written off over the costs involved. Suddenly there seemed to be lots of money for projects.
Dave
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I've read that the insured's homeowner's policy can cover the insured's damage(s) to another's property away from the insured's physical address- if that makes any sense. As far as injuries, quite certain a modeler's personal health insurance will cover them, but as expected , it won't cover someone else who is injured by a model aircraft.
I once submitted a claim to the AMA following a deep cut from a prop. The guys at the field called the police who called for an ambulance to transport me to a hospital. The AMA's position was that my medical insurance was primary. Fortunately, it was covered by my personal medical insurance ;including the deductible.
I've always felt that the AMA over-extended themselves by purchasing the property in Muncie. It's great to have a venue for the NATS. When they were based in Ralston, Va and previously Washington, DC they likely had much lower operating expenses. Of course, the membership back then was larger and we had the NAVY NATS.
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According to data the AMA has filed for 2023:
Income: $9,093,789
Expenses: $10,015,829
Net Income: $922,040 (operating loss)
For 2022 the operating loss was $984,382
For 2021 the net income was $125,021
For 2020 the net income was $177,199
The data is available on ProPublica. You can also view the Form 990 Federal Return for this tax-exempt 501(c)3 organization.
Do you have a link for this? I am a CPA (haven't practiced for years but..) and I would like to have a look at the whole picture. Operating income for a 501(c)3 does not tell the whole story and is a poor indicator of their overall health. The trend line is the wrong direction but NFP's are not supposed to make money, they distribute it. I would like to see what their funds look like and any endowments. Having said that, their RC/Drone fetish is killing them.
Ken
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https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/520799408 (https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/520799408)
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Something does not sound right. If bankruptcy was in the cards and imminent, it seems to me the AMA management would first owe the members an explanation of what is going on internally to the AMA, and what the organization is proactively doing about it. Cut unnecessary spending, raise member dues, whatever to stay solvent.
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At tonights club meeting two of our members said they saw on local news that the AMA was going to declare backruptcy. Anyone else heard this? D>K
What is the source? TV news? What channel?
900000 loss on 10000000 in assets is not fatal
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A google search brought up nothing. If anything had been filed, published or announced it would have come up......I'd bet no news.......is good news.
Dave
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A google search brought up nothing. If anything had been filed, published or announced it would have come up......I'd bet no news.......is good news.
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It may be no more than an unfounded rumor, but they had darn well better have a plan to deal with shrinking revenue and membership, because things are only headed one way. That doesn't mean "The End", necessarily, but it will if they don't recognize that and try to desperately "grow" by going even further off their charter.
My concern is that many of the people involved think they are running a toy catalog business, it gets them lots of fancy stuff as long as the advertising keeps selling. It's completely tangential to their stated purpose, but plenty of them are "businessmen" who "know" you have to keep growing and expanding. Any plan that counts on the hobby business continually expanding is going to fail, hard, very soon.
There are two ways to deal with it - try to keep growing the reach into side topics (like selling life insurance, selling member addresses/contact information to third parties, as they are currently doing, trying to be the gatekeepers on flying sites and drone registration, etc) - or try to cut the scope to live within the means they have.
I anticipate that they will choose the former, try ever-more-desperate attempts to keep the current system, until it suddenly collapses, because they can't bring themselves to give up a lot of these side issues, like the 120-page glossy "magazine". I don't think they are bad guys, but just like drones, they don't see it coming.
Brett
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It may be no more than an unfounded rumor, but they had darn well better have a plan to deal with shrinking revenue and membership, because things are only headed one way. That doesn't mean "The End", necessarily, but it will if they don't recognize that and try to desperately "grow" by going even further off their charter.
My concern is that many of the people involved think they are running a toy catalog business, it gets them lots of fancy stuff as long as the advertising keeps selling. It's completely tangential to their stated purpose, but plenty of them are "businessmen" who "know" you have to keep growing and expanding. Any plan that counts on the hobby business continually expanding is going to fail, hard, very soon.
There are two ways to deal with it - try to keep growing the reach into side topics (like selling life insurance, selling member addresses/contact information to third parties, as they are currently doing, trying to be the gatekeepers on flying sites and drone registration, etc) - or try to cut the scope to live within the means they have.
I anticipate that they will choose the former, try ever-more-desperate attempts to keep the current system, until it suddenly collapses, because they can't bring themselves to give up a lot of these side issues, like the 120-page glossy "magazine". I don't think they are bad guys, but just like drones, they don't see it coming.
Brett
This is in part where I don't understand the 'grand plan' for renovations at the Muncie site on the scale proposed. The site is adequate, with regular maintenance and upkeep to handle everything that goes on there. Multi million dollar improvements sound nice but will do nothing to increase membership and instead drains the piggy bank at an accelerated rate that hastens an end of the road. I was told they experienced an increase of 12,000 members this past year. They know only about 10% will renew after the first two years. Where did this increase come from? Probably drones and that is what the bean counters are looking at. Maybe the improvements are omage to the long-time membership to quiet the stir about drones and the magazine. There is a hefty staff on board simply to support the magazine. Thats obvious looking at the cars in the parking lot on the average weekday. So to them this may be chicken or egg. We the members wish just to keep the site going and maintain the status quo even if the organization shrinks. They are looking for job security I might guess and that means growth no matter what changes that takes. I noticed Chad is or has moved on to a new job. Haven't heard about his replacement. I sensed when talking to him he felt his hands were tied at times about the direction and decisions being made. Leadership by committee has pitfalls....
Dave
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Interim Executive Director is Tyler Dobbs.
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I just took a quick look at their 990 and my sheltered opinion is that they are not even close to being insolvent. The only thing that caught my eye was what Brett mentioned, the outrageous cost of producing the magazine. The loss was an accrual loss on a Tax form which means you really have to dig deep to find out what their actual financial health is. Just a quick read they had depreciation, prepaid expenses and deferred revenue far in excess of the $900k "loss". What I saw was a "healthy" organization updating infrastructure. I would like to see their CPA's Audit Opinion. I seriously doubt it was qualified.
I hope that they can get better direction going forward but I am pretty sure they will outlast me.
Ken
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I think, as many others do, that AMA should eliminate the paper print of their non model airplane content magazine.
Considering that the digital publication is available automatically to Leader Members and by choice to non Leader members.
Eliminating the print and mail costs for that useless rag would be a huge savings for the AMA.
Advertising revenue might be impacted though....
The AMA would do well to reduce costs where possible.
In fact...recently I have been on a long delayed cleanup of magazines that should be thrown out and paper with personal info that should be shredded and non-renewal of memberships in organizations that I no longer support so....Last week I called the AMA and had them cancel the print copy of that magazine.
As a Leader Member I also get the digital version....but of course I ignore it...the whole point of this exercise is to eliminate ignored magazines piling up and threatening to make a sinkhole in the shop.
Last weeks load was about 50lbs...got a lot more for this week...tomorrow in fact!
I confess that last week I received the latest AMA rag and it immediately went to the curb without opening it....true story.
I am also deeply involved with Amateur Radio and have been almost as long as model airplanes in general...and I have stopped all print news from clubs, organizations and associated retail outlets.
What a relief.
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At tonights club meeting two of our members said they saw on local news that the AMA was going to declare backruptcy. Anyone else heard this? D>K
Aren't you located in Alabama somewhere? In the business of news reporting, seems like anything AMA related would be more of an Indiana centric news item, pretty far removed from the interests of 99% of Alabama news tellers. I can't see it making the evening news anywhere, really.
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I went to DuckDuckGo and asked "is ama group going broke". A load of "AMA's" are in financial distress, but I didn't see OUR AMA among them. The ones with financial problems are from all over the world, and their businesses range wildly from auto body repair to investments. Of course, there's also the American Medical Association, American Motorcycle Association, etc., etc.
Presently, I'm not much of a fan of our AMA, and don't really care if they're the one. R%%%% Steve
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There are a bunch of AMA's. American Medical Association, American Marketing Association for starters. No mention of any of them on the Web. Where were they that the local news would even know what our AMA was?
Ken
America Motorcycle Association
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A Medical A shouldn't have any money problems.
All non-profits are REQUIRED to have a monthly publication. Considering that Model Aviation sells a lot of ads and members contribute articles for free, the magazine should be a revenue source, not a cost.
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Before, I had the print version of Model Aviation. This time, I thought to save a little money and so opted for the digital version instead.
One thing surprised me is that I can't get a PDF but must use the site's web form to view all content. Supposedly, I should be able to print a page.
I somehow got crossed in my thinking, because with two motorcycle groups I am with, I can download their magazine content, makes for easier reading off-line, plus I store them in their own folder for future reference and viewing, printing selective pages etc.
Am I missing on something?
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This is in part where I don't understand the 'grand plan' for renovations at the Muncie site on the scale proposed. The site is adequate, with regular maintenance and upkeep to handle everything that goes on there. Multi million dollar improvements sound nice but will do nothing to increase membership and instead drains the piggy bank at an accelerated rate that hastens an end of the road.
I assume they were planning the "expansion" (at least the plan Mark Weiss told me about involving moving the CL area up near Memorial Drive) in order to sell off the southeast corner of the site, presumably everything south of the 600x600 pad and east of the drive that goes from the entrance to the l-pad to the farmhouse. This leaves HQ, Museum, 600x600 pad, farmhouse, RC "stage center" and the "rocket facility" which is just a field.
I thought that plan would have been OK for us, but just fixing the site as it is seemed a lot cheaper and as far as I am concerned just as good or better.
They obviously aren't going to do that now, whether or not this was the original intent. They would not have repaved the two sites if that was still the plan. At this point, it looks to me like any significant changes to the site are probably not going to happen.
The "AMA is bankrupt" idea may or may be true, but I can certainly see no evidence of it. Seems pretty out-of-the-blue to me. But if so, then they will probably have to sell off the entire site.
Brett
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Sorry to be late with this, I asked the two members and neither could remember which TV station had this item.
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If you haven’t heard, there won’t be crops in the background at the L-Pad this year.
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If you haven’t heard, there won’t be crops in the background at the L-Pad this year.
Really? What *is* going to be there?
Brett
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Really? What *is* going to be there?
Brett
Doodly squat
33 acres of the NE corner will no longer be planted. North of the farmhouse HQ building to the east road and past the L-Pad.
NFFS will pay for grass seed but they don't expect grass this year.
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Doodly squat
33 acres of the NE corner will no longer be planted. North of the farmhouse HQ building to the east road and past the L-Pad.
NFFS will pay for grass seed but they don't expect grass this year.
That's kind of surprising, they get non-trivial amounts of money from the farmers. Will look nice once the grass grows.
Brett
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That's kind of surprising, they get non-trivial amounts of money from the farmers. Will look nice once the grass grows.
Brett
"non-trivial" needs defining.
Ii heard that NFFS was going to cover the 'loss' for one year and AMA after.
Bill
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Could this lead to us ever having a "One Nats" again like the Navy days? I personally think that having it split by specialty has damaged the hobby by forcing us into single disciplines. Maybe it is not practical. I am just curious if there were any talks in that direction.
ken
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Could this lead to us ever having a "One Nats" again like the Navy days? I personally think that having it split by specialty has damaged the hobby by forcing us into single disciplines. Maybe it is not practical. I am just curious if there were any talks in that direction.
ken
Be assured that the field is not big enough for a combined Nats.
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Yeah the facility is way too small to do that. As is, the Nats spread over about a month still has certain overlaps and clashes of space at times.
Dave
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The NAVY NATS purpose was to cultivate youth to someday join NAVAL AIR. I attended 5 NAVY NATS and the Junior and Senior attendance was huge. If you never attended a NAVY NATS, you can't begin to fathom.
The NAVY won't be interested in shutting down a base for a bunch of round bellies, lol.
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The NAVY NATS purpose was to cultivate youth to someday join NAVAL AIR. I attended 5 NAVY NATS and the Junior and Senior attendance was huge.
No kidding, if there was the same turnout today you would have qualifying rounds in Junior. I just liked the old AAA AAAA formats with overall trophies.
Ken
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"non-trivial" needs defining.
Ii heard that NFFS was going to cover the 'loss' for one year and AMA after.
Bill
Was there some reason other than not wanting to DT into a cornfield?
Brett
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Was there some reason other than not wanting to DT into a cornfield?
Brett
Shewt, I'm not privy to that info. I do not know if NFFS lobbied for the removal.
I have been into that field a few times - corn and beans.
Wind from the West makes the field quite small for us.
This was approved on Monday. I think.
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Shewt, I'm not privy to that info. I do not know if NFFS lobbied for the removal.
I have been into that field a few times - corn and beans.
Wind from the West makes the field quite small for us.
This was approved on Monday. I think.
I think everybody was unhappy with the 8 foot corn field 25 feet off the side of the circle, and FF models just disappear into it. The soybeans were OK, you could tell the wind speed by the waves in it.
Brett
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I think everybody was unhappy with the 8 foot corn field 25 feet off the side of the circle, and FF models just disappear into it. The soybeans were OK, you could tell the wind speed by the waves in it.
Brett
I find that the corn is easier to walk through. Soybeans that are waist high is just one giant plant. There are no tows any mote and you WILL trip.
Does the corn adjacent to the circle affect the wind coming off it for flying stunt?
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I find that the corn is easier to walk through. Soybeans that are waist high is just one giant plant. There are no tows any mote and you WILL trip.
Does the corn adjacent to the circle affect the wind coming off it for flying stunt?
Yes corn is easier to walk, but but visibility is like 2 feet. Often you better walk systematically row by row and still look very carefully, it’s very easy to walk past the model.
Today it’s not a big problem as at least most of the FAI people have GPS in model. I get easily to within a few metres and then follow the beeper.
The worst to walk through is sunflower.
I want to come in your FF nats just for the fun of it. The AMA field is too small for serious flying if the wind picks up. L
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I find that the corn is easier to walk through. Soybeans that are waist high is just one giant plant. There are no tows any mote and you WILL trip.
Does the corn adjacent to the circle affect the wind coming off it for flying stunt?
Not so much the wind most of the time because of wind direction. The issue with the corn is visual. When you have eight foot corn next to the circle and you are trying to fly five foot bottoms your mind tries to tell you the top of the corn is the horizon. Many times the guys will try to fly a little crosswind to avoid the worst of that or fly the whole pattern a little higher to minimize or even out the visual affect. It's rare the wind come from over the corn onto the circle there but if it did them yes, that would be a big issue. It sure can be on my home field. Even light winds can seem pretty turbulent.
Dave
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Not so much the wind most of the time because of wind direction. The issue with the corn is visual.
Well, one of the issues, anyway. But when the wind was blowing from the NE, I was out launching for Joe Daly, and it was clear what you wanted to do was put the bottoms at about 3 feet to try to stay as far as possible from the 7-8ft level. Fortunately it did not do that for long.
Brett
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Was there some reason other than not wanting to DT into a cornfield?
Brett
You can D/T into and retrieve from corn, but you can't launch from it :)
IOW, it makes the field larger if the wind direction is from that area.
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You can D/T into and retrieve from corn, but you can't launch from it :)
IOW, it makes the field larger if the wind direction is from that area.
As Lauri mentions above, it's sometimes very hard to see your airplane even from a few feet away. I haven't DTed any FF models into a cornfield, but I know rockets routinely disappear into it.
Brett
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A week before last FF world champs I lost a glider in corn, the field was only about 300x400m size. I did'n look where it dt'd as I was stupid and trusted too much the technology, and of course on that very flight didn't get the GPS signal.
I found it after walking 41km in that tiny patch of corn. L
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If you have GPS (and it works) finding a free flight model in corn is not too bad. But you don't see the model till you are right beside it.
On the other hand, I know they have spent hours looking for 4 metre R/C sailplanes in the corn at Muncie.
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As Lauri mentions above, it's sometimes very hard to see your airplane even from a few feet away. I haven't DTed any FF models into a cornfield, but I know rockets routinely disappear into it.
Brett
Rockets disappear pretty well in the soybeans too. My brand new Goblin is still in the field behind the grass circles.
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Rockets disappear pretty well in the soybeans too. My brand new Goblin is still in the field behind the grass circles.
But the Aprillia was found after its epic final flight before getting run over by the combine!
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"non-trivial" needs defining.
Ii heard that NFFS was going to cover the 'loss' for one year and AMA after.
Bill
Received the following from Dave Lindley, President of NFFS:
I have spent a year negotiating with AMA and the Farmer to remove a parcel of crop on the IAC that eats more than its fair share of Free Flight models. At the January AMA Executive Council meeting this past weekend, the Council approved UNANIMOUSLY surrendering 33 acres of crop on the property (see Graphic) . This is one small parcel of land on the East boundary of the property that has been under crop for years and provides some small amount of revenue to AMA, but every year we end up losing multiple models in this particular parcel. I’m not saying there aren’t other places to lose models, but statistically this parcel is the “Charlie Browns Tree” and we are the kite! AMA has agreed to forego the revenue of this 33 acres. In exchange, NFFS has agreed to pay for the 33 acres to be graded down and field seeded for grass.
The boundary of the parcel adjoins the "L Runway" that CL uses
The area in question is identified in the attached image.
Regards,
Bill
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Received the following from Dave Lindley, President of NFFS:
The area in question is identified in the attached image.
Regards,
Bill
I can easily see their point, very interesting.
Brett
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In Wichita we flew at Beech Field, which was bordered by corn fields. When at combat model went into the corn, the saying was "wait until the harvest and maybe you'll get the engine back". The farmer was good about returning model remains.