AMA

[Mike Griffin]

Someone pointed out in another forum that the new AMA Decal that comes in the 2012 renewal package, only shows RC Model symbols and the FF and CL symbols are gone.  For a couple of years now, when my Model Aviation magazine came, it went straight in the trash.  I personally considered the AMA a necessary evil for CL pilots because if you wanted to compete, you had to be a member.  This past year, physical problems with my back and knees have pretty much put an end to me flying in contests or even just fun flying for that matter so dropping my AMA membership at the end of this year will not be a big deal for me.  I have turned my energies toward building and doing kit runs for you guys.

I am sure the AMA can survive without my dues but I have always thought that control line pilots were the red headed step children of the AMA and all they really wanted from us was our money.  They give very little credence to Control Line or Free Flight.  RC is the GOD that they worship and that is fine.  I am just tired of feeling like we are second class citizens.

[Mike Keville]

Hear, hear!  See my post on 'the other forum' tonight.  Pretty much says it all.

[Steve Hines]

We dont have a field here in the west side of michigan, the AMA has helped out a lot and it looks like we will get a field. It is a little north of where we wanted, but it is a place we can fly every day of the week and not just on Sundays. I have not seen 1 contest put in the AMA, word of mouth is the only way to find out. Dont know why?     

Steve

[Chuck Feldman]

Hello Mike and Mike,   Back in the fifties when I was a young teen the AMA was a wonderful organization. They put on the Nationals at Willow Grove PA and so did the US NAVY. It was fantastic. Also in those days I knew some of the early developers of RC. They where nice men and worked for RCA in Camden NJ.  Never realized at that time that RC would dominate the AMA as it does today. Now most of you know that I join the AMA every year and usually post my opinion about it. This year I can simply say that we the remnants of the AMA past and am not satisfied with the AMA and there lack of interest in what we do. Face it we are the dinosaurs. I do not expect those who know nothing of our roots to care about us anylonger. Our time has passed and I am grateful to have been around when Model airplane hobbies where the top of the heap. So fly on, build on, and enjoy the great hobby we still enjoy. Especially the friends that we have.

[Mike Griffin]

Hi Chuck,

Your post certainly rings true in the hearts of all of us who remember the glory days of CL flying.  I had been feeling this way for quite a while and when Mike posted in the other forum about this, I had to echo his sentiments.  Yeah I guess we are the dinosaurs of flying models but I would not trade all the Chinese made RC ARFs in the world for the enjoyment I have experienced just going around in a circle for about 6 minutes.  There is just no feeling in the world like the feel of that plane on the end of the wires whether you are a world class flyer or just a weekend warrior like I am/was.

I think it is obvious that while the AMA still tosses us a bone every once in a while, that all you have to do is thumb through the magazine and see how much space they give to Control Line to see where their priorities lie. I haven't bothered to even open the magazine in quite a while.

I will give credit where credit is due and the AMA is  a great organization for the RC community.  I just personally have no interest in hovering a helicopter upside down or bouncing the tail of a 3D plane off of the ground.  Alas, I will not be renewing my membership in 2012 but certainly understand that others have their reasons to stay with them.

 

[peabody]

Without the AMA, I would wager that ALL flying model activity would be illegal.
The AMA provides a strong lobbying arm that prevents the folks at Homeland Security or the FAA from simply banning ALL types of modeling activity. They are heavily engaged in that right now.
Sure, it's easy to say that the magazine sucks, or that the organization is all RC, but they are also administrators (keepers of the keys, as it were) of all forms of modeling activities. They are the liaison with the FAI and are a central rule making body (albeit kinda goofy at times).
Without them boards like this and SSW would be discussing "what we used to do" and clandestine places where we "took a flight before the cops came"...
The insurance provided is a HUGE added bonus, and one that adds real value to their lobbying efforts...
Without the AMA, B.O.M. discussions would be about static models...

have fun!

[Paul Taylor]

As I think Bobby said once... if you want to see more coverage in MA then start writing and submitting.

With that said I think AMA / MA is doing what every other organization is doing. Going where the major bucks are.

Look at the numbers. It takes about $100. to get into a starter CL package, takes about $500 to get a starter RC package.

If you buy a top of the line CL kit with a RJ or PA xx, what is that $600-$700? By a top of the line RC plane..... what is the cost? $3000? $6000 or more if you go jets???

It is all about.... show me the money!

Also there are a lot of guys that fly both RC and CL with CL being what they like the most. So they get a little something from MA. I fly CL, but now own two RC planes that have yet to fly. I am just glad the AMA has not kicked us CL flyers out. If we keep complaining about it they just might.

[John Stiles]

Without the AMA, I would wager that ALL flying model activity would be illegal.

Bull corn, wheelchairs will be outlawed before toy airplanes........the fed could care less about control line models.....as far as AMA pretty much ignoring C/L and FF........we are the white-haired stepchild...not redhaired. White-haired is synonymous with one foot in the grave and the other on a roller skate; in todays PC world. Them's the facts.........just sayin!

[John Fitzgerald]

The Feds may ban R/C, but not control line.  A ban on R/C might make control line mainstream again.  I really don't care much about R/C.  Maybe they will ban flying above 100 feet, which would be a defacto ban on most of R/C.

[peabody]

The ONLY reason that the "Feds" know that Control Line is NOT RC is due to the AMA....take that to the bank...
I know that John Griggs and Dave Mathewson flew a lot of CL on the way ..... both have CL planes and take them up occasionally...

I would differ that it's the money that causes the AMA to cover so much RC....it's the membership numbers....they are just as concerned about $100 park fliers and anything....

Have fun!

[dennis lipsett]

author=peabody link=topic=24352.msg233727#msg233727 date=1323273489]
The ONLY reason that the "Feds" know that Control Line is NOT RC is due to the AMA....take that to the bank...
I know that John Griggs and Dave Mathewson flew a lot of CL on the way ..... both have CL planes and take them up occasionally...

I would differ that it's the money that causes the AMA to cover so much RC....it's the membership numbers....they are just as concerned about $100 park fliers and anything....

Have fun!

Peabody,

You have to remember that as a consumer you only want to pay for what you perceive as value for your money. Show me the valus. I'd love to see the first federal case in court as to C/l flying being a terrorist activity. Perhaps they could put a case forward that terrorists tried to stop traffic in Manhatten while we went round and round while inching to the Empire State building with an M-80 on it .

Dennis

[Frank Imbriaco]

 Peabody is right.
Insurance is  the best reason to stay with it.
Think of  the terrible scenarios  because of an accident to yourself or someone else .
Hospital bills and lawsuits have the potential for financial ruin.
They've got my $58.00

[proparc]

Maybe they will ban flying above 100 feet, which would be a defacto ban on most of R/C.

Knowing the Feds, it will be 69 feet 6 inches!!

[John Fitzgerald]

It doesn't take a lot of intelligence to see that C/L is not R/C.  The ONLY reason I renewed my AMA is in case I might get injured by a prop or such and to have additional insurance in case I maybe occasionally fly at someone else's property or once in a great while attend a contest.

[Mike Griffin]

As far as insurance goes, RC planes are more likely to cause much more damage than a CL plane.  I have seen guys fly these Giant Warbirds over houses, livestock and moving traffic.  If the engine on a CL plane quits, you have 60' in any direction to worry about to either land the plane safely or put it in the ground.  Numerous times I have seen RC pilots lose orientation by getting the plane way to far away from them and crash.  The simple fact that RC is untethered flying, I see much more potential for damage.  Some of these planes are huge and could cause serious damage if they hit something.  Except for very rare instances where both lines break simultaneously, about the only thing you are going to damage with a CL plane is dirt or pavement.

All that being said, the AMA still collects as much from us as they do the RC guys and RC in my opinion is far more dangerous.  Lets keep things in perspective, these are toy planes and I admit some of them can be very expensive toys, but neither RC or CL pose any threat to national security.  Even the idiots in Washington can see that.  When the time comes that some brown shirt govt official marches out on the field and starts confiscating your model, we have far bigger problems to worry about.

[Doug Moon]

I can usually find something interesting to read about in MA.  And I can usually learn something I can use in the future during the next build.  maybe it is a new product, glue or whatever.  Maybe a technique of some kind.  Maybe I can get ideas when looking at other forms of modeling I can incorporate into what I do.  

To just throw it away is a total waste.

They give cl a column every month.  The membership is 143000 and maybe on a good day the total cl first population is probably 8000.  That's .05% of the population.  The fact that cl gets a column every month is great!  And from time to time they even run a feature article, that comes from the .05% of the population.

I think they do a good job of trying to spread around the coverage.  I also know they do a good job to host us for a week at the Nats every year.  If they didn’t care then they would run us out of there and get some more RC stuff in there.  But they do have us and I think they do a good job.  

Remember they are trying to cover all of model aviation.  The largest group in all of model aviation is going to get the larger amount of coverage.  Seems pretty logical to me.

[John Fitzgerald]

That's a very good argument for a reduced membership cost for C/L only, like the existing reduced membership fee for park fliers only.  But, are there enough of us out here to make AMA even care?
BTW, I got a bad finger injury once from a deep line cut when an engine went intermittent on me when flying overhead.  At the time, I had no deductible to pay on injuries.  Now, with my high deductible plan, hopefully AMA would pay for something similar.

[Paul Taylor]

I see that AMA also include model rockets when you sign up. If you fly those model rockets you should be a AMA member. I do not recall seeing any thing in MA that has to do with model rockets.

[Andrew Borgogna]

I too wonder about why I need the AMA.  The only reason I can come up with is without it I can't fly at any contest.  As far as insurance, almost all homeowner insurance companies will provide a rider (at additional cost) that will cover our liability needs.  As far as representing us before the FAA, guys the FAA has no legal jurisdiction over control line model airplanes.  Why you ask, technical we don't fly "airplanes".  By definition an airplane is not tethered to the ground they must fly free.  We are no more flying airplanes to the FAA than tethered boats, cars or even kites.  As far as MA, I really think enough has been said about that.  Like I said, if every contest we fly at didn't demand proof of AMA membership I really can't think of any real need for it.
Andy

[Mike Griffin]

This has been a really good discussion so far and I think I have made my feelings known but others feel differently and that is good.  I think we would all agree that the vast majority of the content in the magazine pertains to RC.  I would just offer the following proposal to the AMA as it would pertain to the CL pilot.


1.  Offer an option out on the magazine and reduce the membership rate.

2.  Offer a reduced rate or option out on insurance for the CL pilot who does not compete.

I think this would would be fair for the CL community.  It is not about the cost, it is about the value...I just don't see the value for us as compared to the RC Community.  We are a true minority. 

[Dick Pacini]

2.  Offer a reduced rate or option out on insurance for the CL pilot who does not compete.

Doesn't the AMA insurance cover sport flying too?

[John Stiles]

The ONLY reason that the "Feds" know that Control Line is NOT RC is due to the AMA....take that to the bank...

Just more horse manure right there.....I guarantee you that the feds got there by way of a lot of education and training.....they are NOT STUPID by any means......and the word "model" keys their attention towards the correct field of study. Model airplanes are toys for the most part, and the feds studied that before they decided that giant scale R/C bombers with 4 engines and jets could easily carry dangerous payloads. Please don't blow smoke up my pant-legs about this. There's good arguments in your favor without making stuff up.  For Mike G.: If they do cut the membership fee for C/L fun-fliers.....I will come a lot closer to paying in!

[Mike Griffin]

Hi Dick

AMA offers a reduced rate on membership for Park Fliers.  It is $29.95 a year and gives you a half a million dollars in insurance.  Most of the park flyers I know just go to a baseball diamond or a city park and fly.  I would venture to say that 99% of them DO NOT belong to AMA...

[Mike Griffin]

For mike: If they do cut the membership fee for C/L fun-fliers.....I will come a lot closer to paying in!

I am right there with you on this John.

[Dick Pacini]

Mike, from the AMA site on Park Fliers:

1) Q: What type aircraft may Park Pilot members fly?
A: Aircraft are limited to 2 pounds in weight and speeds of less than 60 mph. The quiet, slow-flying park flyer aircraft allow them to fly in areas in which traditional-style models are not allowed to fly. This opens up the possibility of new fields in both outdoor and indoor venues.

2) Q: Are the insurance benefits the same for this membership category as for the regular AMA membership category?
A: No. The liability coverage is limited to $500,000; fire, theft, vandalism, and medical are not included.

So, you lose 2 million in liability coverage along with fire and theft and are limited to 32 ounce airplanes just to save a few bucks in annual membership.

[John Fitzgerald]

I think there is a lot less liability for C/L fliers, and the membership fee should be reduced accordingly for those who fly C/L only.  I have personally watched two instances of R/C models flying into vehicles.  One was a large helicopter and caused a great deal of damage.  I never witnessed a C/L model cause any damage other than to itself.  Only saw one fly away that went more than a few feet and it was a 1/2 A.  There are good arguments for reduced membership for C/L only fliers.  The mag should be optional for all in my opinion.

[Garf]

I once saw a B speed model go thru the windshield of a car.

[Mike Griffin]

As John Byrne said, we are all friends here and all have the same passion for the CL segment of model flying. Bob Hunt has an article in the MA every month and there are other strays here and there but I still find very little value in being more or less forced into joining an organization that treats CL as if it was something extinct.

Do you suppose if I wrote an article for Model Aviation opining that they treat us like the red headed step child that they would print it?

Here is a new twist for you....the way that AMA views us is the way I view them. Try talking to some of these RC guys about airfoils, or tail moments or any of the most simple terms and principles that all of us who have built or flown CL for years take for granted. Most of these guys get an ARF that was made in Red China, follow the instructions or call a buddy to come over who has glued one together before and 2 hours later they are at the field. Most of them could not build a kit. RC is a no brainer. CL is hard..that is what makes it great and why there are so few of us.

If anything, we should be the pilots that are looked up to and not looked down on.

[Mike Griffin]

I have witnessed several times when errent FF models have hit a car, mine included at the NAts in 77. I know of a time when a combat ship got loose and hit a man in the mouth, and he was way up in the stands, far from the circle. I almost got hit by a loose jet powered speed model at the Spookane Internats and I was 200 feet from it. It happens. Then there  was the case of a student pilot on a buddy box, putting his helo into this instructor and killing him.. Remember that one.?
With out the AMA insurance, many, many contests simply would not happen, CL, FF or RC. Plus AMA insurance is secondary to personal, home owners or auto insurance, as I found out.  Yet property owners feel safer with it, so contests can go on.  Those of you that are CDs know this.
Let's stick with the facts guys, not emotions.  Been there, still tend to do that. 

Yeah Ty but you are older than dirt...

[Mike Griffin]

AMEN TY.. and I was kidding about the age thing.....

[Peter Ferguson]

AMA site insurance has been essential in obtaining and maintaining CL flying sites, without them we would be flying w/o permission in vacant lots. That enough reason for me to join besides the lobbying efforts. I guess it depends on if you support airplane modeling as a whole or just your little knothole. Sometimes its worth standing back and looking at the bigger picture.

[andrew stokey]

The age thing is true.  Ty used to fly with Moses.  I know.  I was there

[Paul Taylor]

Hey don't let Ty's age fool you for a second.

It was not that long ago I saw him dance around in the circle at the Memphis Stunt Classic. Like brake dancing or something.
He can still bust a move!

[Randy Cuberly]

A lot of good comments in this thread.
I'm usually at the head of the line for criticizing the AMA for their attitude toward CL, and probably will continue to be there...however I doubt that anyone has ever changed an idea or organization by ignoring it.
There are some simple facts that cannot be ignored:

1.  CL is very much a minority in both numbers of members and money spent on advertising.
2.  The AMA does include CL in their planning and editorials.
3.  The AMA does continue to sanction CL clubs and provide very important site insurance for CL sites as well as RC.
4.  The AMA does provide liability insurance for all types of model flying FF and CL included.
5.  The AMA does provide a medium for CL flyers to express their views even if they usually are only limited in submission.
6.  The AMA does represent all forms of modeling to governmental and commercial agencies.

One last fact is self evident...if we give up our admittedly small voice in AMA by abstention, we will have no voice there at all.

Personally I will continue to pay my dues and be a pain in their AXX at every opportunity.  Nothing else will matter to them!

Randy Cuberly

[Jim Thomerson]

In years gone by, I submitted five article ideas to AMA and two of them saw publication.  Model Aviation pays a reasonable amount on acceptance.  Other magazines I have written for pay on publication, so you may wait a while for your money.  I would suggest you give it a shot if you have anything to contribute.  

Bob Hunt's column is occasional, as are the other CL columns.  

On an aside, I really like Flying Models.  It covers the waterfront in a way which suits me. There are always stunt and combat columns and various construction articles, CL included.  I even read their couple of ARF reviews, which actually have useful information.  Flying Models is a commercial magazine, which, one presumes, makes money.  I wonder how Model aviation would fare, if it did not have a captive receivership (no, I didn't mean readership.)

[John Stiles]

Maybe it's time for ACLMA! Who's up for that? I'd hate to be the one to snatch the C/L FF rug out from under AMA....but they need to step up or shut up. TJMHO and I'm sticking to it.

[Joseph Lijoi]

The AMA is our political arm.  I think this what we pay for.  They are our lobbyist and we need them to protect our rights, get us fields etc.  If the Fed would even consider banning RC then the AMA will demonstrate that so much of the development of RPV's comes from Model Aviation and that a lot of the people working on these things are Modelers.

The Federal government worries me less than insurance companies.  Any insurance adjuster will look at the fact that control line has had more fatalities from flying near power lines than any other form of Model Aviation. It happened around here about five years ago.  Sure that guy was foolish (may he rest in peace) but many others take uneccesary risks.

What worries me is someone offering the RC guys insurance at a reduced rate. and nothing else, thereby diminishing the power of the AMA.  We need the AMA.  My club is an RC club,
I buy control line stuff from RC supplieres.  I personally am willing to pay the AMA its pop for political power.  The insurance to me is really a minor thing to me commpared to everything else the AMA does.

Sure we are old, but we ain't dead yet.  There aren't as many of us out there but we are still here.  So chill out y'all, these are great times to be into control line!

[Mike Griffin]

Well I must say that this thread has brought up a lot of interesting viewpoints on the subject.  I really did not know I would get this many responses but glad I did.  I certainly did not intend to demonize the AMA and I still think it serves a purpose if you fly RC.  (tongue in cheek).  For the non competitive weekend flyer who wants to take his boys out to uncle Joe's farm and fly his Ringmaster, I think there is very little value and I don't think that he should be pressured into joining AMA.  Not everyone Competes.  I would bet you a dime to a dollar that the vast majority of people who fly a little electric park flyer do not even know who the AMA is.

I do not compete anymore because my once great athletic body has gone South on me and I can barely stand up and walk anymore much less go around in a circle for 6 minutes so I will not join AMA next year.  I try to give back to the hobby through my kits and making unique designs once again available. But this is me and my situation and I certainly would be the last person to criticize anyone for joining any organization.  

[Randy Powell]

What Randy said.

As to developing a CL/FF national organization that could replace the AMA; well, I suppose it's possible. Getting an insurance underwriter would be interesting. I suspect it would increase the amount we pay in dues by quite a lot since the pool would be so much smaller. And it would take a ton of organizing from a group of volunteers. Not sure who would be willing to put in the kind of time it would take to set up and entire national organization and administer it. To say nothing of a getting a bunch of hard headed, independent thinking, irascible CL and FF fliers to sign up for it and put the money in it would take to make such a thing work.  It's a thought, but it seems easier and possibly more productive to just try to increase our voice at the AMA. Maybe not, but I wouldn't look at an independent organization first.

I primarily pay my AMA dues for the insurance and competition license. I scan MA (which I would discontinue if that were an option) and occasionally find something worthwhile there. Not much but some.

[Steve Hines]

If anyone should be pissed it should be the RC guys. At the nats, it has been said that it only effect's 20 people. the other events are not AMA. Why should they pay for 20 guys to fly.

[John Stiles]

As to developing a CL/FF national organization that could replace the AMA; well, I suppose it's possible. Getting an insurance underwriter would be interesting. I suspect it would increase the amount we pay in dues by quite a lot

Except and unless AMA wants to head that off by stepping up and charging C/L and FF members accordingly as they are treated in the grand scheme of things. I'm not an R/C flier, nor do I compete or need a place to fly. I furnish all the things I need, and furnish them free to anyone that wants to fly here. Unless they make it worth my while, I won't be joining AMA.

[Joseph Lijoi]

If you don't compete, have a place to fly and don't need insurance then there is no reason to join the AMA.   The only thing that you would be paying for is to support an organization, which would be like a political contribution.  For me I have to join because I belong to a club that has a control line circle, it is an AMA sanctioned club, but is an RC club.

If I lived on a farm it would be different.  But if I lived on a farm I would probably fly everyday, then I would need the AMA liscence to compete.

[Mike Keville]

Rather than re-type the whole dang thing, go over to Stuka and see the thread entitled "More On The AMA Topic".

[Randy Cuberly]

If anyone should be pissed it should be the RC guys. At the nats, it has been said that it only effect's 20 people. the other events are not AMA. Why should they pay for 20 guys to fly.

Huh?  Could you possibly give a little more explanation of your reasoning here for us old slow guys that don't understand what the Hell you are talking about!

Randy Cuberly

[John Stiles]

If you don't compete, have a place to fly and don't need insurance then there is no reason to join the AMA.   The only thing that you would be paying for is to support an organization, which would be like a political contribution.  For me I have to join because I belong to a club that has a control line circle, it is an AMA sanctioned club, but is an RC club.

If I lived on a farm it would be different.  But if I lived on a farm I would probably fly everyday, then I would need the AMA liscence to compete.

I'd be willing to bet AMA don't give a hoot if I go fly a kite.....but they'd be glad to have all the kite fliers' money.

A whole lotta people donated money to the POTUS and didn't get a dayam thing to show for it.

Isn't that more like what we're talking about here?

[Mike Griffin]

The AMA is our political arm.  I think this what we pay for.  They are our lobbyist and we need them to protect our rights, get us fields etc.  If the Fed would even consider banning RC then the AMA will demonstrate that so much of the development of RPV's comes from Model Aviation and that a lot of the people working on these things are Modelers.

The Federal government worries me less than insurance companies.  Any insurance adjuster will look at the fact that control line has had more fatalities from flying near power lines than any other form of Model Aviation. It happened around here about five years ago.  Sure that guy was foolish (may he rest in peace) but many others take uneccesary risks.

What worries me is someone offering the RC guys insurance at a reduced rate. and nothing else, thereby diminishing the power of the AMA.  We need the AMA.  My club is an RC club,
I buy control line stuff from RC supplieres.  I personally am willing to pay the AMA its pop for political power.  The insurance to me is really a minor thing to me commpared to everything else the AMA does.

Joseph, your post struck a chord with me and you made a very astute observation when you said the AMA is our political arm and we basically pay dues to them to protect our rights to have a hobby.  Isn't that sad?  A hobby has to have a lobbyist?  I don't think people who collect stamps have a lobbyist or have to worry about lawsuits.  I think it says a lot about the world we live in today.  When I was a kid growing up in Mayfield, Kentucky, we had a small airport and about the biggest thing you would see land every once in a while was a Piper Cub.  We used to go out there with my dad and fly on the tarmac out there and the people who ran the airport (I think there were a total of two) used to come out and watch us fly.  Today we have to pay dues to an organization to protect us??  Sad... just plain sad.

Sure we are old, but we ain't dead yet.  There aren't as many of us out there but we are still here.  So chill out y'all, these are great times to be into control line!

[John Stiles]

Joseph, your post struck a chord with me and you made a very astute observation when you said the AMA is our political arm and we basically pay dues to them to protect our rights to have a hobby.  Isn't that sad?  A hobby has to have a lobbyist?  I don't think people who collect stamps have a lobbyist or have to worry about lawsuits.  I think it says a lot about the world we live in today.  When I was a kid growing up in Mayfield, Kentucky, we had a small airport and about the biggest thing you would see land every once in a while was a Piper Cub.  We used to go out there with my dad and fly on the tarmac out there and the people who ran the airport (I think there were a total of two) used to come out and watch us fly.  Today we have to pay dues to an organization to protect us??  Sad... just plain sad.

What'd the world do before "insurance" Our political arm, wants us to pay for protection.....didn't that all begin back somewhere around the prohibition? It's a strange world we live in indeed! Mo'money mo'money mo'money!

[john e. holliday]

One thing about CL, is I know people who fly and don't belong to the AMA.   As they say it is only required for competition.   Their home owners insurance covers them they say.   Also as I told a fellow RC'r, at least when I crash, I only walk around 60 feet to pick up the pieces.

[Andrew Borgogna]

I don't know if it is still true, but I remember when AMA told the membership that AMA insurance was NOT a primary insurance.  You were required to first see if your homeowners insurance would pay.  If they didn't only then would AMA cough up money.  Anybody know if that is still the case.
Andy

[Thomas Tilley]

  Hi All    As the Vice Pres of our RC club, I am in the process of adding a C/L circle  to our site as well as rebuilding our dirt track for cars and rock crawlers. Hopefully when done the area  AMA VP will finally show up and see that C/L is still VERY MUCH ALIVE  as well as our club which led AMA in new members. Thanks for your comments on AMA, they simply mean that we C/L people GOTTA be more Vocal AND active in AMA and MAGAZINES.    Thanks   Tom Tilley AMA 56944