stunthanger.com
General control line discussion => Open Forum => Topic started by: Mike Griffin on December 06, 2011, 09:31:53 PM
-
Someone pointed out in another forum that the new AMA Decal that comes in the 2012 renewal package, only shows RC Model symbols and the FF and CL symbols are gone. For a couple of years now, when my Model Aviation magazine came, it went straight in the trash. I personally considered the AMA a necessary evil for CL pilots because if you wanted to compete, you had to be a member. This past year, physical problems with my back and knees have pretty much put an end to me flying in contests or even just fun flying for that matter so dropping my AMA membership at the end of this year will not be a big deal for me. I have turned my energies toward building and doing kit runs for you guys.
I am sure the AMA can survive without my dues but I have always thought that control line pilots were the red headed step children of the AMA and all they really wanted from us was our money. They give very little credence to Control Line or Free Flight. RC is the GOD that they worship and that is fine. I am just tired of feeling like we are second class citizens.
-
Hear, hear! See my post on 'the other forum' tonight. Pretty much says it all.
-
We dont have a field here in the west side of michigan, the AMA has helped out a lot and it looks like we will get a field. It is a little north of where we wanted, but it is a place we can fly every day of the week and not just on Sundays. I have not seen 1 contest put in the AMA, word of mouth is the only way to find out. Dont know why?
Steve
-
Hello Mike and Mike, Back in the fifties when I was a young teen the AMA was a wonderful organization. They put on the Nationals at Willow Grove PA and so did the US NAVY. It was fantastic. Also in those days I knew some of the early developers of RC. They where nice men and worked for RCA in Camden NJ. Never realized at that time that RC would dominate the AMA as it does today. Now most of you know that I join the AMA every year and usually post my opinion about it. This year I can simply say that we the remnants of the AMA past and am not satisfied with the AMA and there lack of interest in what we do. Face it we are the dinosaurs. I do not expect those who know nothing of our roots to care about us anylonger. Our time has passed and I am grateful to have been around when Model airplane hobbies where the top of the heap. So fly on, build on, and enjoy the great hobby we still enjoy. Especially the friends that we have.
-
Hi Chuck,
Your post certainly rings true in the hearts of all of us who remember the glory days of CL flying. I had been feeling this way for quite a while and when Mike posted in the other forum about this, I had to echo his sentiments. Yeah I guess we are the dinosaurs of flying models but I would not trade all the Chinese made RC ARFs in the world for the enjoyment I have experienced just going around in a circle for about 6 minutes. There is just no feeling in the world like the feel of that plane on the end of the wires whether you are a world class flyer or just a weekend warrior like I am/was.
I think it is obvious that while the AMA still tosses us a bone every once in a while, that all you have to do is thumb through the magazine and see how much space they give to Control Line to see where their priorities lie. I haven't bothered to even open the magazine in quite a while.
I will give credit where credit is due and the AMA is a great organization for the RC community. I just personally have no interest in hovering a helicopter upside down or bouncing the tail of a 3D plane off of the ground. Alas, I will not be renewing my membership in 2012 but certainly understand that others have their reasons to stay with them.
-
Without the AMA, I would wager that ALL flying model activity would be illegal.
The AMA provides a strong lobbying arm that prevents the folks at Homeland Security or the FAA from simply banning ALL types of modeling activity. They are heavily engaged in that right now.
Sure, it's easy to say that the magazine sucks, or that the organization is all RC, but they are also administrators (keepers of the keys, as it were) of all forms of modeling activities. They are the liaison with the FAI and are a central rule making body (albeit kinda goofy at times).
Without them boards like this and SSW would be discussing "what we used to do" and clandestine places where we "took a flight before the cops came"...
The insurance provided is a HUGE added bonus, and one that adds real value to their lobbying efforts...
Without the AMA, B.O.M. discussions would be about static models...
have fun!
-
As I think Bobby said once... if you want to see more coverage in MA then start writing and submitting.
With that said I think AMA / MA is doing what every other organization is doing. Going where the major bucks are.
Look at the numbers. It takes about $100. to get into a starter CL package, takes about $500 to get a starter RC package.
If you buy a top of the line CL kit with a RJ or PA xx, what is that $600-$700? By a top of the line RC plane..... what is the cost? $3000? $6000 or more if you go jets???
It is all about.... show me the money!
Also there are a lot of guys that fly both RC and CL with CL being what they like the most. So they get a little something from MA. I fly CL, but now own two RC planes that have yet to fly. I am just glad the AMA has not kicked us CL flyers out. If we keep complaining about it they just might. D>K
-
Without the AMA, I would wager that ALL flying model activity would be illegal.
Bull corn, wheelchairs will be outlawed before toy airplanes........the fed could care less about control line models.....as far as AMA pretty much ignoring C/L and FF........we are the white-haired stepchild...not redhaired. White-haired is synonymous with one foot in the grave and the other on a roller skate; in todays PC world. Them's the facts.........just sayin! H^^
-
The Feds may ban R/C, but not control line. A ban on R/C might make control line mainstream again. I really don't care much about R/C. Maybe they will ban flying above 100 feet, which would be a defacto ban on most of R/C.
-
The ONLY reason that the "Feds" know that Control Line is NOT RC is due to the AMA....take that to the bank...
I know that John Griggs and Dave Mathewson flew a lot of CL on the way ..... both have CL planes and take them up occasionally...
I would differ that it's the money that causes the AMA to cover so much RC....it's the membership numbers....they are just as concerned about $100 park fliers and anything....
Have fun!
-
author=peabody link=topic=24352.msg233727#msg233727 date=1323273489]
The ONLY reason that the "Feds" know that Control Line is NOT RC is due to the AMA....take that to the bank...
I know that John Griggs and Dave Mathewson flew a lot of CL on the way ..... both have CL planes and take them up occasionally...
I would differ that it's the money that causes the AMA to cover so much RC....it's the membership numbers....they are just as concerned about $100 park fliers and anything....
Have fun!
Peabody,
You have to remember that as a consumer you only want to pay for what you perceive as value for your money. Show me the valus. I'd love to see the first federal case in court as to C/l flying being a terrorist activity. Perhaps they could put a case forward that terrorists tried to stop traffic in Manhatten while we went round and round while inching to the Empire State building with an M-80 on it .
Dennis
-
Peabody is right.
Insurance is the best reason to stay with it.
Think of the terrible scenarios because of an accident to yourself or someone else .
Hospital bills and lawsuits have the potential for financial ruin.
They've got my $58.00
-
Maybe they will ban flying above 100 feet, which would be a defacto ban on most of R/C.
Knowing the Feds, it will be 69 feet 6 inches!! ::)
-
It doesn't take a lot of intelligence to see that C/L is not R/C. The ONLY reason I renewed my AMA is in case I might get injured by a prop or such and to have additional insurance in case I maybe occasionally fly at someone else's property or once in a great while attend a contest.
-
As far as insurance goes, RC planes are more likely to cause much more damage than a CL plane. I have seen guys fly these Giant Warbirds over houses, livestock and moving traffic. If the engine on a CL plane quits, you have 60' in any direction to worry about to either land the plane safely or put it in the ground. Numerous times I have seen RC pilots lose orientation by getting the plane way to far away from them and crash. The simple fact that RC is untethered flying, I see much more potential for damage. Some of these planes are huge and could cause serious damage if they hit something. Except for very rare instances where both lines break simultaneously, about the only thing you are going to damage with a CL plane is dirt or pavement.
All that being said, the AMA still collects as much from us as they do the RC guys and RC in my opinion is far more dangerous. Lets keep things in perspective, these are toy planes and I admit some of them can be very expensive toys, but neither RC or CL pose any threat to national security. Even the idiots in Washington can see that. When the time comes that some brown shirt govt official marches out on the field and starts confiscating your model, we have far bigger problems to worry about.
-
I can usually find something interesting to read about in MA. And I can usually learn something I can use in the future during the next build. maybe it is a new product, glue or whatever. Maybe a technique of some kind. Maybe I can get ideas when looking at other forms of modeling I can incorporate into what I do.
To just throw it away is a total waste.
They give cl a column every month. The membership is 143000 and maybe on a good day the total cl first population is probably 8000. That's .05% of the population. The fact that cl gets a column every month is great! And from time to time they even run a feature article, that comes from the .05% of the population.
I think they do a good job of trying to spread around the coverage. I also know they do a good job to host us for a week at the Nats every year. If they didn’t care then they would run us out of there and get some more RC stuff in there. But they do have us and I think they do a good job.
Remember they are trying to cover all of model aviation. The largest group in all of model aviation is going to get the larger amount of coverage. Seems pretty logical to me.
-
That's a very good argument for a reduced membership cost for C/L only, like the existing reduced membership fee for park fliers only. But, are there enough of us out here to make AMA even care?
BTW, I got a bad finger injury once from a deep line cut when an engine went intermittent on me when flying overhead. At the time, I had no deductible to pay on injuries. Now, with my high deductible plan, hopefully AMA would pay for something similar.
-
I see that AMA also include model rockets when you sign up. If you fly those model rockets you should be a AMA member. I do not recall seeing any thing in MA that has to do with model rockets. S?P
-
I too wonder about why I need the AMA. The only reason I can come up with is without it I can't fly at any contest. As far as insurance, almost all homeowner insurance companies will provide a rider (at additional cost) that will cover our liability needs. As far as representing us before the FAA, guys the FAA has no legal jurisdiction over control line model airplanes. Why you ask, technical we don't fly "airplanes". By definition an airplane is not tethered to the ground they must fly free. We are no more flying airplanes to the FAA than tethered boats, cars or even kites. As far as MA, I really think enough has been said about that. Like I said, if every contest we fly at didn't demand proof of AMA membership I really can't think of any real need for it.
Andy
-
This has been a really good discussion so far and I think I have made my feelings known but others feel differently and that is good. I think we would all agree that the vast majority of the content in the magazine pertains to RC. I would just offer the following proposal to the AMA as it would pertain to the CL pilot.
1. Offer an option out on the magazine and reduce the membership rate.
2. Offer a reduced rate or option out on insurance for the CL pilot who does not compete.
I think this would would be fair for the CL community. It is not about the cost, it is about the value...I just don't see the value for us as compared to the RC Community. We are a true minority.
-
2. Offer a reduced rate or option out on insurance for the CL pilot who does not compete.
Doesn't the AMA insurance cover sport flying too?
-
The ONLY reason that the "Feds" know that Control Line is NOT RC is due to the AMA....take that to the bank...
Just more horse manure right there.....I guarantee you that the feds got there by way of a lot of education and training.....they are NOT STUPID by any means......and the word "model" keys their attention towards the correct field of study. Model airplanes are toys for the most part, and the feds studied that before they decided that giant scale R/C bombers with 4 engines and jets could easily carry dangerous payloads. Please don't blow smoke up my pant-legs about this. There's good arguments in your favor without making stuff up. For Mike G.: If they do cut the membership fee for C/L fun-fliers.....I will come a lot closer to paying in! H^^
-
Hi Dick
AMA offers a reduced rate on membership for Park Fliers. It is $29.95 a year and gives you a half a million dollars in insurance. Most of the park flyers I know just go to a baseball diamond or a city park and fly. I would venture to say that 99% of them DO NOT belong to AMA...
-
For mike: If they do cut the membership fee for C/L fun-fliers.....I will come a lot closer to paying in!
I am right there with you on this John.
-
Mike, from the AMA site on Park Fliers:
1) Q: What type aircraft may Park Pilot members fly?
A: Aircraft are limited to 2 pounds in weight and speeds of less than 60 mph. The quiet, slow-flying park flyer aircraft allow them to fly in areas in which traditional-style models are not allowed to fly. This opens up the possibility of new fields in both outdoor and indoor venues.
2) Q: Are the insurance benefits the same for this membership category as for the regular AMA membership category?
A: No. The liability coverage is limited to $500,000; fire, theft, vandalism, and medical are not included.
So, you lose 2 million in liability coverage along with fire and theft and are limited to 32 ounce airplanes just to save a few bucks in annual membership.
-
I think there is a lot less liability for C/L fliers, and the membership fee should be reduced accordingly for those who fly C/L only. I have personally watched two instances of R/C models flying into vehicles. One was a large helicopter and caused a great deal of damage. I never witnessed a C/L model cause any damage other than to itself. Only saw one fly away that went more than a few feet and it was a 1/2 A. There are good arguments for reduced membership for C/L only fliers. The mag should be optional for all in my opinion.
-
I once saw a B speed model go thru the windshield of a car.
-
As John Byrne said, we are all friends here and all have the same passion for the CL segment of model flying. Bob Hunt has an article in the MA every month and there are other strays here and there but I still find very little value in being more or less forced into joining an organization that treats CL as if it was something extinct.
Do you suppose if I wrote an article for Model Aviation opining that they treat us like the red headed step child that they would print it?
Here is a new twist for you....the way that AMA views us is the way I view them. Try talking to some of these RC guys about airfoils, or tail moments or any of the most simple terms and principles that all of us who have built or flown CL for years take for granted. Most of these guys get an ARF that was made in Red China, follow the instructions or call a buddy to come over who has glued one together before and 2 hours later they are at the field. Most of them could not build a kit. RC is a no brainer. CL is hard..that is what makes it great and why there are so few of us.
If anything, we should be the pilots that are looked up to and not looked down on.
-
I have witnessed several times when errent FF models have hit a car, mine included at the NAts in 77. I know of a time when a combat ship got loose and hit a man in the mouth, and he was way up in the stands, far from the circle. I almost got hit by a loose jet powered speed model at the Spookane Internats and I was 200 feet from it. It happens. Then there was the case of a student pilot on a buddy box, putting his helo into this instructor and killing him.. Remember that one.?
With out the AMA insurance, many, many contests simply would not happen, CL, FF or RC. Plus AMA insurance is secondary to personal, home owners or auto insurance, as I found out. Yet property owners feel safer with it, so contests can go on. Those of you that are CDs know this.
Let's stick with the facts guys, not emotions. Been there, still tend to do that. H^^ D>K
Yeah Ty but you are older than dirt... LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~
-
AMEN TY.. and I was kidding about the age thing.....
-
AMA site insurance has been essential in obtaining and maintaining CL flying sites, without them we would be flying w/o permission in vacant lots. That enough reason for me to join besides the lobbying efforts. I guess it depends on if you support airplane modeling as a whole or just your little knothole. Sometimes its worth standing back and looking at the bigger picture.
-
The age thing is true. Ty used to fly with Moses. I know. I was there LL~ LL~ LL~
-
Hey don't let Ty's age fool you for a second.
It was not that long ago I saw him dance around in the circle at the Memphis Stunt Classic. Like brake dancing or something.
He can still bust a move! LL~
-
A lot of good comments in this thread.
I'm usually at the head of the line for criticizing the AMA for their attitude toward CL, and probably will continue to be there...however I doubt that anyone has ever changed an idea or organization by ignoring it.
There are some simple facts that cannot be ignored:
1. CL is very much a minority in both numbers of members and money spent on advertising.
2. The AMA does include CL in their planning and editorials.
3. The AMA does continue to sanction CL clubs and provide very important site insurance for CL sites as well as RC.
4. The AMA does provide liability insurance for all types of model flying FF and CL included.
5. The AMA does provide a medium for CL flyers to express their views even if they usually are only limited in submission.
6. The AMA does represent all forms of modeling to governmental and commercial agencies.
One last fact is self evident...if we give up our admittedly small voice in AMA by abstention, we will have no voice there at all.
Personally I will continue to pay my dues and be a pain in their AXX at every opportunity. Nothing else will matter to them!
Randy Cuberly
-
In years gone by, I submitted five article ideas to AMA and two of them saw publication. Model Aviation pays a reasonable amount on acceptance. Other magazines I have written for pay on publication, so you may wait a while for your money. I would suggest you give it a shot if you have anything to contribute.
Bob Hunt's column is occasional, as are the other CL columns.
On an aside, I really like Flying Models. It covers the waterfront in a way which suits me. There are always stunt and combat columns and various construction articles, CL included. I even read their couple of ARF reviews, which actually have useful information. Flying Models is a commercial magazine, which, one presumes, makes money. I wonder how Model aviation would fare, if it did not have a captive receivership (no, I didn't mean readership.)
-
Maybe it's time for ACLMA! Who's up for that? I'd hate to be the one to snatch the C/L FF rug out from under AMA....but they need to step up or shut up. TJMHO and I'm sticking to it. ::)
-
The AMA is our political arm. I think this what we pay for. They are our lobbyist and we need them to protect our rights, get us fields etc. If the Fed would even consider banning RC then the AMA will demonstrate that so much of the development of RPV's comes from Model Aviation and that a lot of the people working on these things are Modelers.
The Federal government worries me less than insurance companies. Any insurance adjuster will look at the fact that control line has had more fatalities from flying near power lines than any other form of Model Aviation. It happened around here about five years ago. Sure that guy was foolish (may he rest in peace) but many others take uneccesary risks.
What worries me is someone offering the RC guys insurance at a reduced rate. and nothing else, thereby diminishing the power of the AMA. We need the AMA. My club is an RC club,
I buy control line stuff from RC supplieres. I personally am willing to pay the AMA its pop for political power. The insurance to me is really a minor thing to me commpared to everything else the AMA does.
Sure we are old, but we ain't dead yet. There aren't as many of us out there but we are still here. So chill out y'all, these are great times to be into control line!
-
Well I must say that this thread has brought up a lot of interesting viewpoints on the subject. I really did not know I would get this many responses but glad I did. I certainly did not intend to demonize the AMA and I still think it serves a purpose if you fly RC. (tongue in cheek). For the non competitive weekend flyer who wants to take his boys out to uncle Joe's farm and fly his Ringmaster, I think there is very little value and I don't think that he should be pressured into joining AMA. Not everyone Competes. I would bet you a dime to a dollar that the vast majority of people who fly a little electric park flyer do not even know who the AMA is.
I do not compete anymore because my once great athletic body has gone South on me and I can barely stand up and walk anymore much less go around in a circle for 6 minutes so I will not join AMA next year. I try to give back to the hobby through my kits and making unique designs once again available. But this is me and my situation and I certainly would be the last person to criticize anyone for joining any organization.
-
What Randy said.
As to developing a CL/FF national organization that could replace the AMA; well, I suppose it's possible. Getting an insurance underwriter would be interesting. I suspect it would increase the amount we pay in dues by quite a lot since the pool would be so much smaller. And it would take a ton of organizing from a group of volunteers. Not sure who would be willing to put in the kind of time it would take to set up and entire national organization and administer it. To say nothing of a getting a bunch of hard headed, independent thinking, irascible CL and FF fliers to sign up for it and put the money in it would take to make such a thing work. It's a thought, but it seems easier and possibly more productive to just try to increase our voice at the AMA. Maybe not, but I wouldn't look at an independent organization first.
I primarily pay my AMA dues for the insurance and competition license. I scan MA (which I would discontinue if that were an option) and occasionally find something worthwhile there. Not much but some.
-
If anyone should be pissed it should be the RC guys. At the nats, it has been said that it only effect's 20 people. the other events are not AMA. Why should they pay for 20 guys to fly.
-
As to developing a CL/FF national organization that could replace the AMA; well, I suppose it's possible. Getting an insurance underwriter would be interesting. I suspect it would increase the amount we pay in dues by quite a lot
Except and unless AMA wants to head that off by stepping up and charging C/L and FF members accordingly as they are treated in the grand scheme of things. I'm not an R/C flier, nor do I compete or need a place to fly. I furnish all the things I need, and furnish them free to anyone that wants to fly here. Unless they make it worth my while, I won't be joining AMA. H^^
-
If you don't compete, have a place to fly and don't need insurance then there is no reason to join the AMA. The only thing that you would be paying for is to support an organization, which would be like a political contribution. For me I have to join because I belong to a club that has a control line circle, it is an AMA sanctioned club, but is an RC club.
If I lived on a farm it would be different. But if I lived on a farm I would probably fly everyday, then I would need the AMA liscence to compete.
-
Rather than re-type the whole dang thing, go over to Stuka and see the thread entitled "More On The AMA Topic".
-
If anyone should be pissed it should be the RC guys. At the nats, it has been said that it only effect's 20 people. the other events are not AMA. Why should they pay for 20 guys to fly.
Huh? Could you possibly give a little more explanation of your reasoning here for us old slow guys that don't understand what the Hell you are talking about!
Randy Cuberly
-
If you don't compete, have a place to fly and don't need insurance then there is no reason to join the AMA. The only thing that you would be paying for is to support an organization, which would be like a political contribution. For me I have to join because I belong to a club that has a control line circle, it is an AMA sanctioned club, but is an RC club.
If I lived on a farm it would be different. But if I lived on a farm I would probably fly everyday, then I would need the AMA liscence to compete.
I'd be willing to bet AMA don't give a hoot if I go fly a kite.....but they'd be glad to have all the kite fliers' money.
A whole lotta people donated money to the POTUS and didn't get a dayam thing to show for it.
Isn't that more like what we're talking about here?
-
The AMA is our political arm. I think this what we pay for. They are our lobbyist and we need them to protect our rights, get us fields etc. If the Fed would even consider banning RC then the AMA will demonstrate that so much of the development of RPV's comes from Model Aviation and that a lot of the people working on these things are Modelers.
The Federal government worries me less than insurance companies. Any insurance adjuster will look at the fact that control line has had more fatalities from flying near power lines than any other form of Model Aviation. It happened around here about five years ago. Sure that guy was foolish (may he rest in peace) but many others take uneccesary risks.
What worries me is someone offering the RC guys insurance at a reduced rate. and nothing else, thereby diminishing the power of the AMA. We need the AMA. My club is an RC club,
I buy control line stuff from RC supplieres. I personally am willing to pay the AMA its pop for political power. The insurance to me is really a minor thing to me commpared to everything else the AMA does.
Joseph, your post struck a chord with me and you made a very astute observation when you said the AMA is our political arm and we basically pay dues to them to protect our rights to have a hobby. Isn't that sad? A hobby has to have a lobbyist? I don't think people who collect stamps have a lobbyist or have to worry about lawsuits. I think it says a lot about the world we live in today. When I was a kid growing up in Mayfield, Kentucky, we had a small airport and about the biggest thing you would see land every once in a while was a Piper Cub. We used to go out there with my dad and fly on the tarmac out there and the people who ran the airport (I think there were a total of two) used to come out and watch us fly. Today we have to pay dues to an organization to protect us?? Sad... just plain sad.
Sure we are old, but we ain't dead yet. There aren't as many of us out there but we are still here. So chill out y'all, these are great times to be into control line!
-
Joseph, your post struck a chord with me and you made a very astute observation when you said the AMA is our political arm and we basically pay dues to them to protect our rights to have a hobby. Isn't that sad? A hobby has to have a lobbyist? I don't think people who collect stamps have a lobbyist or have to worry about lawsuits. I think it says a lot about the world we live in today. When I was a kid growing up in Mayfield, Kentucky, we had a small airport and about the biggest thing you would see land every once in a while was a Piper Cub. We used to go out there with my dad and fly on the tarmac out there and the people who ran the airport (I think there were a total of two) used to come out and watch us fly. Today we have to pay dues to an organization to protect us?? Sad... just plain sad.
What'd the world do before "insurance" ??? Our political arm, wants us to pay for protection.....didn't that all begin back somewhere around the prohibition? It's a strange world we live in indeed! Mo'money mo'money mo'money!
-
One thing about CL, is I know people who fly and don't belong to the AMA. As they say it is only required for competition. Their home owners insurance covers them they say. Also as I told a fellow RC'r, at least when I crash, I only walk around 60 feet to pick up the pieces. VD~
-
I don't know if it is still true, but I remember when AMA told the membership that AMA insurance was NOT a primary insurance. You were required to first see if your homeowners insurance would pay. If they didn't only then would AMA cough up money. Anybody know if that is still the case.
Andy
-
Hi All H^^ H^^ As the Vice Pres of our RC club, I am in the process of adding a C/L circle to our site as well as rebuilding our dirt track for cars and rock crawlers. Hopefully when done the area AMA VP will finally show up and see that C/L is still VERY MUCH ALIVE as well as our club which led AMA in new members. Thanks for your comments on AMA, they simply mean that we C/L people GOTTA be more Vocal AND active in AMA and MAGAZINES. Thanks Tom Tilley AMA 56944 H^^
-
I have wondered about the H/O insurance being the first to cover. I am very cautious as to how to approach this with our carrier. They jack the rates up if I cut the grass. HB~> I don't want to open Pandora's Box by asking if they would cover model airplane accidents. I foresee a gauntlet of questions that will either end up with a premium increase or non-renewal next review.
-
I have wondered about the H/O insurance being the first to cover. I am very cautious as to how to approach this with our carrier. They jack the rates up if I cut the grass. HB~> I don't want to open Pandora's Box by asking if they would cover model airplane accidents. I foresee a gauntlet of questions that will either end up with a premium increase or non-renewal next review.
I think it would be better not to mention it to HO insurers. You are right, they might construe it as an undue risk and ask a lot of questions leading to premium increases or non-renewal. Really, it's no more risky IMO than mowing your own lawn with a power mower.
-
I think it would be better not to mention it to HO insurers. You are right, they might construe it as an undue risk and ask a lot of questions leading to premium increases or non-renewal. Really, it's no more risky IMO than mowing your own lawn with a power mower.
The line about cutting the grass was in jest. My point being that anything done to improve the property increases the value...hence higher premiums if they find out. All I need is for the agent to drive by, see the newly mowed lawn and say "Aha! Rate increase!"
-
Hi Dick
AMA offers a reduced rate on membership for Park Fliers. It is $29.95 a year and gives you a half a million dollars in insurance. Most of the park flyers I know just go to a baseball diamond or a city park and fly. I would venture to say that 99% of them DO NOT belong to AMA...
Too many moons ago cl was on every ball field and park. Something called noise and goodby. Probably parkflyers most don't belong to the ama. They should be educated. As you note they are bringing back the park and ball field. And everything has a cycle. Precision aerobatics (stunt) was king of the hill in the 50s and early 60s. Could be again. Pattern was king until e3d. I get the AMA magazine and subscribe to Flying models. The others I buy on a whim. One of your comments below is really strange. Nobody became somebody flying models of any type. If recognition is what you crave toy airplanes is not going to do it. I accept toy airplanes and they are fun to me. I fly OTS and Classic when the mood fits me. Sometimes I even enter a contest. Haven't come in last yet. Thoroughly enjoy e3d rc but couldn't qualify even for the embarrassed team. Enjoy flying RC in belize and Guatamala with an rc camera/gps/3d photo synthesis plane that is cutting edge. The archaeological types love it. And my most fun airplane is a dakota bipe with rc. buzzes around like an angry hornet but fun to fly. No loops or rolls but a smile after the flight every time.
-
For those who don't visit SSW.
Below is a copy of an e-mail I sent to AMA HQ.
Please consider this as a letter to the editor.
When I received my new license and assorted info as a result of my renewal, I was appalled. The decal is a disgrace. It only covers RC and doesn't show any symbolic models for FF or U/C. These two disciplines pay their dues also. They are the "red headed stepchildren" of AMA. Without the technology developed in them in the early years, RC wouldn't exist in its present state.
Also, I have never seen anything on FF or C/L in "Sport Aviator" Whereas it is supposed for budding pilots. How can newbys even know FF and C/L exist without some exposure in this publication? In other words, they aren't being shown that there are alternatives to RC that are reasonably priced.
Thanks for listening.
Guy Blankinship
P O BOX 12814
Jackson, MS 39236-2814
601-829-3949
AMA 14272, PAMPA member
The following is their reply.
I'm running your letter in Letters to the Editor in the March issue.
Do you know anyone who would like to do a feature or a how-to for any of the publications you mentioned? Are you interested?
This just proves that the "squeaky wheel gets the grease."
They have put the ball in our court. I hope we have some members that will comply with their request. I, myself, are not qualified since I am slowly getting back in the hobby after 35 years off.
-
The line about cutting the grass was in jest. My point being that anything done to improve the property increases the value...hence higher premiums if they find out. All I need is for the agent to drive by, see the newly mowed lawn and say "Aha! Rate increase!"
"Aha!"....sounds like the typical insurance company to me. So.......AMA is a wolf in sheep's clothing after all. Well, they might like to know that my homeowners[insurance co.] is notorious for denying or under-paying on a claim. Tornadic winds blew my roof off, and they decided that because it was 20 years old....they would only pay me $35.00 on a $6,000.00 repair cost. When I raised hell about their figures....they caved in and payed me $350.00! But that was only because i caught them cheating on their figures! I'm still with them after 37years and that's basicly the only claim I ever made. Too bad they don't have a magazine with a place for letters to the editor! ::)
-
Has any control line modeller actually collected on AMA insurance? I really would like to know.
-
For those who don't visit SSW.
Below is a copy of an e-mail I sent to AMA HQ.
Please consider this as a letter to the editor.
When I received my new license and assorted info as a result of my renewal, I was appalled. The decal is a disgrace. It only covers RC and doesn't show any symbolic models for FF or U/C. These two disciplines pay their dues also. They are the "red headed stepchildren" of AMA. Without the technology developed in them in the early years, RC wouldn't exist in its present state.
Also, I have never seen anything on FF or C/L in "Sport Aviator" Whereas it is supposed for budding pilots. How can newbys even know FF and C/L exist without some exposure in this publication? In other words, they aren't being shown that there are alternatives to RC that are reasonably priced.
Thanks for listening.
Guy Blankinship
P O BOX 12814
Jackson, MS 39236-2814
601-829-3949
AMA 14272, PAMPA member
The following is their reply.
I'm running your letter in Letters to the Editor in the March issue.
Do you know anyone who would like to do a feature or a how-to for any of the publications you mentioned? Are you interested?
This just proves that the "squeaky wheel gets the grease."
They have put the ball in our court. I hope we have some members that will comply with their request. I, myself, are not qualified since I am slowly getting back in the hobby after 35 years off.
Yesterday I sent an e mail to Dave Matthewson the Executive Director of AMA but have not received a response as of yet. It was similar to yours. Maybe if enough people let their voices be heard, we could see some positive changes.
-
. . . They have put the ball in our court . . .
To some extent this is this is just "passing the buck". We recently had the 33rd annual Golden State Stunt Championships in Clovis, CA; about as mid state as you can get, making it an easy drive from almost anywhere in CA. Considering the event draws many past Nats winners along with past World champs, you would think that someone from AMA (either nationally or a District 10 rep) could have made it, or at least contacted the CD for info or to request a post event write up. To my knowledge that did not happen. I'm only guessing that were the GSSC a long standing RC event that draws many past Nats and World winners, someone from AMA would have. (Or, are the RC guys just that much better than us at tootin' their horn?)
Of course that does NOT excuse those of us in the tiny CLPA world for not taking the initiative and becoming that "squeaky" wheel. Therefore, I offer this challange . . .
Every CD in 2012 should add one more position for their contest . . . that being a publicist. As well as advance releases to local papers etc, that person should take pictures, make notes, and write up a nice story/recap of the event and submit it to their District Newsletter or rep, and to magazines. If nothing changes in 2012 then we would have legitmate claims for a real beef.
I promise that my personal minimum effort will be to do so for the 2012 GSSC.
Brian
-
I got an e mail back today from AMA and I am calling the person they told me to speak with on Monday as he is out of the office till then. I am going to discuss this with him on the phone and I am going to stick my neck out here and commit to write a CL article for the magazine. About what?? I have no idea yet but I guess it would be a start. I am as unhappy as anyone about the coverage we get in the Magazine as well as the AMA mentality so guess I will jump in and see if I can make any difference. What is the old saying? Better to have tried and failed than never to have tried at all
-
You'll think of something Mike, so you go for it!! Be sure to let us all know when you submit, and to whom so we can anticipate along with you.
Brian
-
Has any control line modeller actually collected on AMA insurance? I really would like to know.
Yes. The highest payout in AMA history was for a CL accident (which the AMA fought tooth and nail). I occasionally hear stories about how CL is disproportionately high in payout money but I have not idea if it is true, and the AMA *will not* tell you the statistics.
Brett
-
Thanks Brett H^^
-
I am going to stick my neck out here and commit to write a CL article for the magazine. About what?? I have no idea yet but I guess it would be a start.
Mike, as a custom kit producer, why not do a write-up on balsa and plywood selection? The different weights and grain characteristics of balsa have a definite bearing on the finished product. That would be helpful to many.
-
Has any control line modeller actually collected on AMA insurance? I really would like to know.
I think there was a guy named Dennis Duvall whose plane hit a guy in the chest at a contest when the man walked into the circle. That may have been a sizable claim.
-
It can't be any worst then the R/C model that crashed into the seats at Shea Stadium during half time.
-
I think the highest paid claim was for two guys killed in a light plane crash while out looking for free flight models. I have heard of various CL claims. I stuck a free flight through a guys car hood at the 1980 Nats and my homeowners insurance paid off. I think AMA members also have some medical insurance for model related incidents. I have not used it as I was covered by other insurance.
The AMA, as a national organization, does little or nothing to promote model aviation to the general public. This has been the case for at least 30 years. I've had three or four letters to the editor on the matter published over the years, and have talked with AMA "public relations" and "marketing" people without any result.
I do not see how, in good conscience, any CL club can have a local contest without some effort at local publicity. But we do it all the time. It is easy to get local newspaper and TV coverage. All you have to do is ask and supply material.
-
It can't be any worst then the R/C model that crashed into the seats at Shea Stadium during half time.
The incident to which I refer was the CL Speed model that hit Joe Armistead at Whittier Narrows. I am essentially certain that that was the highest payout at the time, and had many repercussions - for instance, requirement for nets/fences, the AMA going self-insured for a while, and I think even the AMA insurance being secondary coverage. Also the little thing you have to sign saying you won't sue the AMA for damages - which Joe had to do, since they didn't want to pay for his rehab because he was "rich".
Brett
-
To some extent this is this is just "passing the buck". We recently had the 33rd annual Golden State Stunt Championships in Clovis, CA; about as mid state as you can get, making it an easy drive from almost anywhere in CA. Considering the event draws many past Nats winners along with past World champs, you would think that someone from AMA (either nationally or a District 10 rep) could have made it, or at least contacted the CD for info or to request a post event write up. To my knowledge that did not happen. I'm only guessing that were the GSSC a long standing RC event that draws many past Nats and World winners, someone from AMA would have. (Or, are the RC guys just that much better than us at tootin' their horn?)
Of course that does NOT excuse those of us in the tiny CLPA world for not taking the initiative and becoming that "squeaky" wheel. Therefore, I offer this challange . . .
Every CD in 2012 should add one more position for their contest . . . that being a publicist. As well as advance releases to local papers etc, that person should take pictures, make notes, and write up a nice story/recap of the event and submit it to their District Newsletter or rep, and to magazines. If nothing changes in 2012 then we would have legitmate claims for a real beef.
I promise that my personal minimum effort will be to do so for the 2012 GSSC.
Brian
Hello Brian,
Did anyone contact the local AMA VP/REP about the contest? If the local AMA VP/REP is not a member of the club putting on the contest or not an avid and active cl modeler there is a good chance they dont even know it is happening.
I have seen this before in out district, rep just had no idea it was even happening until someone called and I saw him at the next meet. A simple phone call or email will let them know what is going on. Or a simple write up with a pic or two sent over after the fact and it should make it in the report a few issues later.
Like you said a little publicity will go along way.
-
The incident to which I refer was the CL Speed model that hit Joe Armistead at Whittier Narrows. I am essentially certain that that was the highest payout at the time, and had many repercussions - for instance, requirement for nets/fences, the AMA going self-insured for a while, and I think even the AMA insurance being secondary coverage. Also the little thing you have to sign saying you won't sue the AMA for damages - which Joe had to do, since they didn't want to pay for his rehab because he was "rich".
Brett
I was there that day - judging a Stunt flight with my back to the Speed circle when apparently a 'D' Speed entry pancaked onto the circle, broke the line and shattered Joe Armistead's leg. Joe was an airline pilot. As for him having been 'rich', other members in that profession may question the AMA's definition of that - but that's beside the point. At any rate, this was allegedly the largest payout to date.
-
Hello Brian,
Did anyone contact the local AMA VP/REP about the contest? If the local AMA VP/REP is not a member of the club putting on the contest or not an avid and active cl modeler there is a good chance they dont even know it is happening.
I have seen this before in out district, rep just had no idea it was even happening until someone called and I saw him at the next meet. A simple phone call or email will let them know what is going on. Or a simple write up with a pic or two sent over after the fact and it should make it in the report a few issues later.
Like you said a little publicity will go along way.
Good question, but to my knowledge (limited) no one did. I was only lightly involved in helping with the 2011 GSSC, but will be much more involved in 2012. I'm making notes and writing down ideas now, because I know I'll forget a lot before next October. But I can now say that advanced notice to the district folks will be on the list; that's a great idea! Actually all forms of publicity will be high on the list; I'd love to get a TV station to show up. Just not sure how realistic that is, but I guess we'll find out next year when they do or don't respond.
Brian
-
The biggest claim was a FAI FF plane with aluminum wings that hit power lines, caught fire and started a field fire.
The magazine guys cannot publish articles or plans that they don't have. There is a dearth of submissions.
-
Mom and Dad allways like you better.
Steve
-
Get the big picture. We don't spend enough money so we are invisable.
-
Bob.....
I believe the amount of money that we spend is NOT the issue.....it's our numbers......5-10%
An argument may be made that control line guys, and free flighters, generally are in it for the "long run", whereas rc types join for a year or two and then move to different hobbies....
-
Good question, but to my knowledge (limited) no one did. I was only lightly involved in helping with the 2011 GSSC, but will be much more involved in 2012. I'm making notes and writing down ideas now, because I know I'll forget a lot before next October. But I can now say that advanced notice to the district folks will be on the list; that's a great idea! Actually all forms of publicity will be high on the list; I'd love to get a TV station to show up. Just not sure how realistic that is, but I guess we'll find out next year when they do or don't respond.
Brian
Brian, Brett and Doug,
Good points, we need to invite VP's to show up.
That same weekend, 10 miles away, the District's R/C Pattern Championships was held. I do not know if the VP was there either, but it'd be easy for me to inquire.
BTW, R/C Pattern is about as small as C/L Stunt. I was amazed, because it was so big in the 70's and 80's when I flew at Mile Square. It is typical to have 20 to 30 competitors show up for 4 different classes. All competitive events are feeling the pain of Fun Fly's and Extreme Fly's.
Unconventional types of "competition" like Heli and Giant Scale "Hucking" ( this is 3d stuff) is super popular. The winners are found by popular vote or panel vote awards for style and stuff that are relatively intangable.
This is also where all of the kids are, Heli and 3D stuff brings in the grade school, high school and college aged flyers to the tune of about 50% of the 100 plus entrants.
Chris...
-
Someone pointed out in another forum that the new AMA Decal that comes in the 2012 renewal package, only shows RC Model symbols and the FF and CL symbols are gone. For a couple of years now, when my Model Aviation magazine came, it went straight in the trash. I personally considered the AMA a necessary evil for CL pilots because if you wanted to compete, you had to be a member. This past year, physical problems with my back and knees have pretty much put an end to me flying in contests or even just fun flying for that matter so dropping my AMA membership at the end of this year will not be a big deal for me. I have turned my energies toward building and doing kit runs for you guys.
Mike since you started this thread, I will start by picking on you. No, not really because I have fought this RC thing for 40 years. When I left the USAF for United Airlines, ended up in the Chicago area, May 1968, I was playing around trying to find some CL activity. I did so but when I found Al's Hobby Shop, and went in looking for some CL stuff. I was ridiculed, but held my ground, later got to know Al Fuschin rather well, and we became fairly good friends. He was hard-core RC, and I was a CL flier. That ceased to be a problem.
I am sure the AMA can survive without my dues but I have always thought that control line pilots were the red headed step children of the AMA and all they really wanted from us was our money. They give very little credence to Control Line or Free Flight. RC is the GOD that they worship and that is fine. I am just tired of feeling like we are second class citizens.
Well, IMO, Mike, you are correct in that assumption, yet that is because so few folks ever get a chance to even know what CL means, and definitely have no idea what it is all about. When something comes along that is relatively new to their way, the majority sneaks away, and feel that they are supposed to ridicule it. CL is definitely NOT new but it has since the '70s become UNKNOWN, therefore gets the same billing.
Cl flying is more aligned to competition than RC. RC is more of a sport and fun flying than CL. Those that are real competitors definitely look down their noses at the new guy trying to learn competition flying, regardless of the discipline. Yet, IMO, CL has been far worse about that than RC. I see new RC youngsters get a lot of help from competitive RC fliers. Today, just where in Heck can a youngster find real help with CL? Where are the CLers at? I never see any significant advertising of any CL activities in LHSs. Yet there are several places to fly in my area. They go begging.
Speaking of AMA's Model Aviation magazine: It serves the majority, as it serves the advertising. MA is not profitable to AMA but that is another political story that I have fought for 30 years plus. Unfortunately I have had very little help. It seems that few modelers of any discipline have enough interest in that area to stand up to the AMA Bureaucracy and say, "Enough is Enough". Clers and FFers don't like politics and few RCers can read an Audit Report. It's all there in AMA's Member Only.
Now this would take a large book, so I will just make a statement or two more.
1. Stay in AMA to support the CL discipline.
a. Make your concerns known to your DVP and ADVP. Hammer them. Insist on persons familiar with your CL concerns get elected to the EC. Insist on CL/FF folks get appointed to some AVP positions.
b. Hammer your DVP to appoint persons to the Contest Boards that you have discussed YOUR concerns with.
2. Don't consider the insurance as the AMA. Consider CL model aviation as the reason to be AMA.
a. Bombard the AMA's MA with CL material. If you were a legislator you would go where the votes are. There are plenty RC sellers out there. Who the Heck is making kits for Hobby Shop shelves other than Brodak?
b. I can sit down for two hours with several sheets of Balsa and a bit of ply, and have a good flying 1/2 A model airplane with 18" to 24" wingspan that will loop, fly inverted and such. I keep them in my barn for any kid wanting to fly one. Spending 25-50 Yankee Greens for such is atrocious when it can be done for $5.
When a paltry $58 becomes a hindrance to moving AMA to where you think it should go, then well maybe it is just time to roll over and kiss the bottom goodbye. S?P HB~> y1