AMA

[Dick Pacini]

I have wondered about the H/O insurance being the first to cover.  I am very cautious as to how to approach this with our carrier.  They jack the rates up if I cut the grass.   I don't want to open Pandora's Box by asking if they would cover model airplane accidents.  I foresee a gauntlet of questions that will either end up with a premium increase or non-renewal next review.

[John Fitzgerald]

I have wondered about the H/O insurance being the first to cover.  I am very cautious as to how to approach this with our carrier.  They jack the rates up if I cut the grass.   I don't want to open Pandora's Box by asking if they would cover model airplane accidents.  I foresee a gauntlet of questions that will either end up with a premium increase or non-renewal next review.

I think it would be better not to mention it to HO insurers.  You are right, they might construe it as an undue risk and ask a lot of questions leading to premium increases or non-renewal.  Really, it's no more risky IMO than mowing your own lawn with a power mower.

[Dick Pacini]

I think it would be better not to mention it to HO insurers.  You are right, they might construe it as an undue risk and ask a lot of questions leading to premium increases or non-renewal.  Really, it's no more risky IMO than mowing your own lawn with a power mower.

The line about cutting the grass was in jest.  My point being that anything done to improve the property increases the value...hence higher premiums if they find out.  All I need is for the agent to drive by, see the newly mowed lawn and say "Aha!  Rate increase!"

[donald raab]

Hi Dick

AMA offers a reduced rate on membership for Park Fliers.  It is $29.95 a year and gives you a half a million dollars in insurance.  Most of the park flyers I know just go to a baseball diamond or a city park and fly.  I would venture to say that 99% of them DO NOT belong to AMA...

Too many moons ago cl was on every ball field and park.  Something called noise and goodby.   Probably parkflyers most don't belong to the ama.  They should be educated.  As you note they are bringing back the park and ball field. And everything has a cycle.  Precision aerobatics (stunt) was king of the hill in the 50s and early 60s.  Could be again.  Pattern was king until e3d.  I get the AMA magazine and subscribe to Flying models.  The others I buy on a whim.  One of your comments below is really strange.  Nobody became somebody flying models of any type.  If recognition is what you crave toy airplanes is not going to do it.  I accept toy airplanes and they are fun to me.  I fly OTS and Classic when the mood fits me.  Sometimes I even enter a contest.  Haven't come in last yet.  Thoroughly enjoy e3d rc but couldn't qualify even for the embarrassed team.  Enjoy flying RC in belize and Guatamala with an rc camera/gps/3d photo synthesis plane that is cutting edge.  The archaeological types love it.  And my most fun airplane is a dakota bipe with rc.  buzzes around like an angry hornet but fun to fly.  No loops or rolls but a smile after the flight every time. 

[Guy B Jr]

For those who don't visit SSW.

Below is a copy of an e-mail I sent to AMA HQ.

Please consider this as a letter to the editor.
When I received my new license and assorted info as a result of my renewal, I was appalled. The decal is a disgrace. It only covers RC and doesn't show any symbolic models for FF or U/C. These two disciplines pay their dues also. They are the "red headed stepchildren" of AMA. Without the technology developed in them in the early years, RC wouldn't exist in its present state.

Also, I have never seen anything on FF or C/L in "Sport Aviator" Whereas it is supposed for budding pilots. How can newbys even know FF and C/L exist without some exposure in this publication? In other words, they aren't being shown that there are alternatives to RC that are reasonably priced.

Thanks for listening.

Guy Blankinship
P O BOX 12814
Jackson, MS 39236-2814
601-829-3949
AMA 14272, PAMPA member

The following is their reply.

I'm running your letter in Letters to the Editor in the March issue.
Do you know anyone who would like to do a feature or a how-to for any of the publications you mentioned? Are you interested?

This just proves that the "squeaky wheel gets the grease."
They have put the ball in our court. I hope we have some members that will comply with their request. I, myself, are not qualified since I am slowly getting back in the hobby after 35 years off.

[John Stiles]

The line about cutting the grass was in jest.  My point being that anything done to improve the property increases the value...hence higher premiums if they find out.  All I need is for the agent to drive by, see the newly mowed lawn and say "Aha!  Rate increase!"

"Aha!"....sounds like the typical insurance company to me. So.......AMA is a wolf in sheep's clothing after all. Well, they might like to know that my homeowners[insurance co.] is notorious for denying or under-paying on a claim. Tornadic winds blew my roof off, and they decided that because it was 20 years old....they would only pay me $35.00 on a $6,000.00 repair cost. When I raised hell about their figures....they caved in and payed me $350.00! But that was only because i caught them cheating on their figures! I'm still with them after 37years and that's basicly the only claim I ever made. Too bad they don't have a magazine with a place for letters to the editor!

[Michael Boucher]

Has any control line modeller actually collected on AMA insurance? I really would like to know.

[Mike Griffin]

For those who don't visit SSW.

Below is a copy of an e-mail I sent to AMA HQ.

Please consider this as a letter to the editor.
When I received my new license and assorted info as a result of my renewal, I was appalled. The decal is a disgrace. It only covers RC and doesn't show any symbolic models for FF or U/C. These two disciplines pay their dues also. They are the "red headed stepchildren" of AMA. Without the technology developed in them in the early years, RC wouldn't exist in its present state.

Also, I have never seen anything on FF or C/L in "Sport Aviator" Whereas it is supposed for budding pilots. How can newbys even know FF and C/L exist without some exposure in this publication? In other words, they aren't being shown that there are alternatives to RC that are reasonably priced.

Thanks for listening.

Guy Blankinship
P O BOX 12814
Jackson, MS 39236-2814
601-829-3949
AMA 14272, PAMPA member

The following is their reply.

I'm running your letter in Letters to the Editor in the March issue.
Do you know anyone who would like to do a feature or a how-to for any of the publications you mentioned? Are you interested?

This just proves that the "squeaky wheel gets the grease."
They have put the ball in our court. I hope we have some members that will comply with their request. I, myself, are not qualified since I am slowly getting back in the hobby after 35 years off.

Yesterday I sent an e mail to Dave Matthewson the Executive Director of AMA but have not received a response as of yet.  It was similar to yours.  Maybe if enough people let their voices be heard, we could see some positive changes.

[Brian Massey]

. . . They have put the ball in our court . . .

To some extent this is this is just "passing the buck". We recently had the 33rd annual Golden State Stunt Championships in Clovis, CA; about as mid state as you can get, making it an easy drive from almost anywhere in CA. Considering the event draws many past Nats winners along with past World champs, you would think that someone from AMA (either nationally or a District 10 rep) could have made it, or at least contacted the CD for info or to request a post event write up. To my knowledge that did not happen. I'm only guessing that were the GSSC a long standing RC event that draws many past Nats and World winners, someone from AMA would have. (Or, are the RC guys just that much better than us at tootin' their horn?)

Of course that does NOT excuse those of us in the tiny CLPA world for not taking the initiative and becoming that "squeaky" wheel. Therefore, I offer this challange . . .
Every CD in 2012 should add one more position for their contest . . . that being a publicist. As well as advance releases to local papers etc, that person should take pictures, make notes, and write up a nice story/recap of the event and submit it to their District Newsletter or rep, and to magazines. If nothing changes in 2012 then we would have legitmate claims for a real beef.

I promise that my personal minimum effort will be to do so for the 2012 GSSC.

Brian

[Mike Griffin]

I got an e mail back today from AMA and I am calling the person they told me to speak with on Monday as he is out of the office till then.  I am going to discuss this with him on the phone and I am going to stick my neck out here and commit to write a CL article for the magazine.  About what?? I have no idea yet but I guess it would be a start.  I am as unhappy as anyone about the coverage we get in the Magazine as well as the AMA mentality so guess I will jump in and see if I can make any difference.  What is the old saying?  Better to have tried and failed than never to have tried at all

[Brian Massey]

You'll think of something Mike, so you go for it!! Be sure to let us all know when you submit, and to whom so we can anticipate along with you.

Brian

[Brett Buck]

Has any control line modeller actually collected on AMA insurance? I really would like to know.

    Yes. The highest payout in AMA history was for a CL accident (which the AMA fought tooth and nail). I occasionally hear stories about how CL is disproportionately high in payout money but I have not idea if it is true, and the AMA *will not* tell you the statistics.

     Brett

[Michael Boucher]

Thanks Brett 

[Dick Pacini]

I am going to stick my neck out here and commit to write a CL article for the magazine.  About what?? I have no idea yet but I guess it would be a start. 

Mike, as a custom kit producer, why not do a write-up on balsa and plywood selection?  The different weights and grain characteristics of balsa have a definite bearing on the finished product.  That would be helpful to many.

[Dick Pacini]

Has any control line modeller actually collected on AMA insurance? I really would like to know.

I think there was a guy named Dennis Duvall whose plane hit a guy in the chest at a contest when the man walked into the circle.  That may have been a sizable claim.

[Michael Boucher]

It can't be any worst then the R/C model that crashed into the seats at Shea Stadium during half time.

[Jim Thomerson]

I think the highest paid claim was for two guys killed in a light plane crash while out looking for free flight models.  I have heard of various CL claims.  I stuck a free flight through a guys car hood at the 1980 Nats and my homeowners insurance paid off.  I think AMA members also have some medical insurance for model related incidents.  I have not used it as I was covered by other insurance.

The AMA, as a national organization, does little or nothing to promote model aviation to the general public.  This has been the case for at least 30 years.  I've had three or four letters to the editor on the matter published over the years, and have talked with AMA "public relations" and "marketing" people without any result.

I do not see how, in good conscience, any CL club can have a local contest without some effort at local publicity.  But we do it all the time.  It is easy to get local newspaper and TV coverage.  All you have to do is ask and supply material. 

[Brett Buck]

It can't be any worst then the R/C model that crashed into the seats at Shea Stadium during half time.

  The incident to which I refer was the CL Speed model that hit Joe Armistead at Whittier Narrows. I am essentially certain that that was the highest payout at the time, and had many repercussions - for instance, requirement for nets/fences, the AMA going self-insured for a while, and I think even the AMA insurance being secondary coverage. Also the little thing you have to sign saying you won't sue the AMA for damages - which Joe  had to do, since they didn't want to pay for his rehab because he was "rich".

    Brett

[Doug Moon]

To some extent this is this is just "passing the buck". We recently had the 33rd annual Golden State Stunt Championships in Clovis, CA; about as mid state as you can get, making it an easy drive from almost anywhere in CA. Considering the event draws many past Nats winners along with past World champs, you would think that someone from AMA (either nationally or a District 10 rep) could have made it, or at least contacted the CD for info or to request a post event write up. To my knowledge that did not happen. I'm only guessing that were the GSSC a long standing RC event that draws many past Nats and World winners, someone from AMA would have. (Or, are the RC guys just that much better than us at tootin' their horn?)

Of course that does NOT excuse those of us in the tiny CLPA world for not taking the initiative and becoming that "squeaky" wheel. Therefore, I offer this challange . . .
Every CD in 2012 should add one more position for their contest . . . that being a publicist. As well as advance releases to local papers etc, that person should take pictures, make notes, and write up a nice story/recap of the event and submit it to their District Newsletter or rep, and to magazines. If nothing changes in 2012 then we would have legitmate claims for a real beef.

I promise that my personal minimum effort will be to do so for the 2012 GSSC.

Brian

Hello Brian,

Did anyone contact the local AMA VP/REP about the contest?  If the local AMA VP/REP is not a member of the club putting on the contest or not an avid and active cl modeler there is a good chance they dont even know it is happening.

I have seen this before in out district, rep just had no idea it was even happening until someone called and I saw him at the next meet.  A simple phone call or email will let them know what is going on.  Or a simple write up with a pic or two sent over after the fact and it should make it in the report a few issues later.

Like you said a little publicity will go along way.

[Mike Keville]

  The incident to which I refer was the CL Speed model that hit Joe Armistead at Whittier Narrows. I am essentially certain that that was the highest payout at the time, and had many repercussions - for instance, requirement for nets/fences, the AMA going self-insured for a while, and I think even the AMA insurance being secondary coverage. Also the little thing you have to sign saying you won't sue the AMA for damages - which Joe  had to do, since they didn't want to pay for his rehab because he was "rich".

    Brett

I was there that day - judging a Stunt flight with my back to the Speed circle when apparently a 'D' Speed entry pancaked onto the circle, broke the line and shattered Joe Armistead's leg.  Joe was an airline pilot.  As for him having been 'rich', other members in that profession may question the AMA's definition of that - but that's beside the point.  At any rate, this was allegedly the largest payout to date.

[Brian Massey]

Hello Brian,

Did anyone contact the local AMA VP/REP about the contest?  If the local AMA VP/REP is not a member of the club putting on the contest or not an avid and active cl modeler there is a good chance they dont even know it is happening.

I have seen this before in out district, rep just had no idea it was even happening until someone called and I saw him at the next meet.  A simple phone call or email will let them know what is going on.  Or a simple write up with a pic or two sent over after the fact and it should make it in the report a few issues later.

Like you said a little publicity will go along way.

Good question, but to my knowledge (limited) no one did. I was only lightly involved in helping with the 2011 GSSC, but will be much more involved in 2012. I'm making notes and writing down ideas now, because I know I'll forget a lot before next October. But I can now say that advanced notice to the district folks will be on the list; that's a great idea! Actually all forms of publicity will be high on the list; I'd love to get a TV station to show up. Just not sure how realistic that is, but I guess we'll find out next year when they do or don't respond.

Brian

[Dan Berry]

The biggest claim was a FAI FF plane with aluminum wings that hit power lines, caught fire and started a field fire.

The magazine guys cannot publish articles or plans that they don't have. There is a dearth of submissions.

[Steve Hines]

 Mom and Dad allways like you better.

Steve

[RC Storick]

Get the big picture. We don't spend enough money so we are invisable.

[peabody]

Bob.....
I believe the amount of money that we spend is NOT the issue.....it's our numbers......5-10%
An argument may be made that control line guys, and free flighters, generally are in it for the "long run", whereas rc types join for a year or two and then move to different hobbies....

[Chris McMillin]

Good question, but to my knowledge (limited) no one did. I was only lightly involved in helping with the 2011 GSSC, but will be much more involved in 2012. I'm making notes and writing down ideas now, because I know I'll forget a lot before next October. But I can now say that advanced notice to the district folks will be on the list; that's a great idea! Actually all forms of publicity will be high on the list; I'd love to get a TV station to show up. Just not sure how realistic that is, but I guess we'll find out next year when they do or don't respond.

Brian

Brian, Brett and Doug,
Good points, we need to invite VP's to show up.

That same weekend, 10 miles away, the District's R/C Pattern Championships was held. I do not know if the VP was there either, but it'd be easy for me to inquire.

BTW, R/C Pattern is about as small as C/L Stunt. I was amazed, because it was so big in the 70's and 80's when I flew at Mile Square. It is typical to have 20 to 30 competitors show up for 4 different classes. All competitive events are feeling the pain of Fun Fly's and Extreme Fly's.

Unconventional types of "competition" like Heli and Giant Scale "Hucking" ( this is 3d stuff) is super popular. The winners are found by popular vote or panel vote awards for style and stuff that are relatively intangable.

This is also where all of the kids are, Heli and 3D stuff brings in the grade school, high school and college aged flyers to the tune of about 50% of the 100 plus entrants.

Chris...

[Hoss Cain]

Someone pointed out in another forum that the new AMA Decal that comes in the 2012 renewal package, only shows RC Model symbols and the FF and CL symbols are gone.  For a couple of years now, when my Model Aviation magazine came, it went straight in the trash.  I personally considered the AMA a necessary evil for CL pilots because if you wanted to compete, you had to be a member.  This past year, physical problems with my back and knees have pretty much put an end to me flying in contests or even just fun flying for that matter so dropping my AMA membership at the end of this year will not be a big deal for me.  I have turned my energies toward building and doing kit runs for you guys.

Mike since you started this thread, I will start by picking on you. No, not really because I have fought this RC thing for 40 years. When I left the USAF for United Airlines, ended up in the Chicago area, May 1968, I was playing around trying to find some CL activity. I did so but when I found Al's Hobby Shop, and went in looking for some CL stuff. I was ridiculed, but held my ground, later got to know Al Fuschin rather well, and we became fairly good friends. He was hard-core RC, and I was a CL flier. That ceased to be a problem.

I am sure the AMA can survive without my dues but I have always thought that control line pilots were the red headed step children of the AMA and all they really wanted from us was our money.  They give very little credence to Control Line or Free Flight.  RC is the GOD that they worship and that is fine.  I am just tired of feeling like we are second class citizens.

Well, IMO, Mike, you are correct in that assumption, yet that is because so few folks ever get a chance to even know what CL means, and definitely have no idea what it is all about. When something comes along that is relatively new to their way, the majority sneaks away, and feel that they are supposed to ridicule it. CL is definitely NOT new but it has since the '70s become UNKNOWN, therefore gets the same billing.
Cl flying is more aligned to competition than RC. RC is more of a sport and fun flying than CL. Those that are real competitors definitely look down their noses at the new guy trying to learn competition flying, regardless of the discipline. Yet, IMO, CL has been far worse about that than RC. I see new RC youngsters get a lot of help from competitive RC fliers. Today, just where in Heck can a youngster find real help with CL? Where are the CLers at? I never see any significant advertising of any CL activities in LHSs. Yet there are several places to fly in my area. They go begging.

Speaking of AMA's Model Aviation magazine: It serves the majority, as it serves the advertising. MA is not profitable to AMA but that is another political story that I have fought for 30 years plus. Unfortunately I have had very little help. It seems that few modelers of any discipline have enough interest in that area to stand up to the AMA Bureaucracy and say, "Enough is Enough". Clers and FFers don't like politics and few RCers can read an Audit Report. It's all there in AMA's Member Only.

Now this would take a large book, so I will just make a statement or two more.

1. Stay in AMA to support the CL discipline.
a. Make your concerns known to your DVP and ADVP. Hammer them. Insist on persons familiar with your CL concerns get elected to the EC. Insist on CL/FF folks get appointed to some AVP positions.
b. Hammer your DVP to appoint persons to the Contest Boards that you have discussed YOUR concerns with.

2. Don't consider the insurance as the AMA. Consider CL model aviation as the reason to be AMA.
a. Bombard the AMA's MA with CL material. If you were a legislator you would go where the votes are. There are plenty RC sellers out there. Who the Heck is making kits for Hobby Shop shelves other than Brodak?
b. I can sit down for two hours with several sheets of Balsa and a bit of ply, and have a good flying 1/2 A model airplane with 18" to 24" wingspan that will loop, fly inverted and such. I keep them in my barn for any kid wanting to fly one. Spending 25-50 Yankee Greens for such is atrocious when it can be done for $5.

When a paltry $58 becomes a hindrance to moving AMA to where you think it should go, then well maybe it is just time to roll over and kiss the bottom goodbye.