AMA setting groundwork for new D-X Flying Site

[Hoss Cain]

http://www.modelaircraft.org/aboutama/Organization/ec/1011ecmotions.aspx

EC Motions:  EC Meeting 10-29-11

MOTION IV: Moved by G. Fitch (II) and seconded by J. Wallen (IX) to raise funds for the goal of planning, construction and operation of a District X flying site project and assign a dedicated account for those funds. If the goal is not reached the account will sunset December 31, 2016. Any remaining funds not spent pursuant to an AMA authorized expense, will be returned to the donors.
MOTION passed: 11-Y; 1-Abstain (IV).


OH Boy, so AMA is testing waters for the funding of a western area airplane club. Surreeee, it will cover all disciplines of aeromodeling. 
As one that has a little experience in real estate investments, this bears watching and could become very interesting, especially when all the various interests start the "ME, ME, NOT YOU, ME, ME, Etc.   
In reality, I hate to see AMA get involved in real estate financing when, to best of my knowledge, they don't even have Muncie paid for.  I bought bricks for Reston, and for Muncie. I really don't care to invest in these future operations.

Other points are available at http://www.modelaircraft.org/forums/tm.aspx?m=14968

[Howard Rush]

Looks like those of us in the West, particularly in the populous District Ten, should get behind this.  I'll put up some bucks, but I'd want something a little tighter than "funds not spent pursuant to an AMA authorized expense" to keep them from evaporating or being spent on an RC fun fly in Houston.

[Brett Buck]

Looks like those of us in the West, particularly in the populous District Ten, should get behind this.  I'll put up some bucks, but I'd want something a little tighter than "funds not spent pursuant to an AMA authorized expense" to keep them from evaporating or being spent on an RC fun fly in Houston.

     Exactly. Like, where did all the money donated for the previous attempt at this, in Visalia, wind up?

   Brett

[Hoss Cain]

Looks like those of us in the West, particularly in the populous District Ten, should get behind this.  I'll put up some bucks, but I'd want something a little tighter than "funds not spent pursuant to an AMA authorized expense" to keep them from evaporating or being spent on an RC fun fly in Houston.

Here is another additional discussion. I sent a letter  and received an answer then I answered that letter.

****************


In a message dated 11/9/2011 8:17:37 AM Central Standard Time, XXX writes:
The EC has not approved expending any AMA funds just the opening of an account into which funds may be deposited to enable fact finding.

XXX


My answer:

Right ! However once that gets going there will be small changes, improvements, loans, "agreements" from donors, etc. that will result in AMA becoming financially involved. It will happen more and more as time goes by.

This statement opens the door very wide. "Any remaining funds not spent pursuant to an AMA authorized expense, will be returned to the donors."

If the project goes belly up, and all the funds are gone, my bet is that the donors will charge that all funds were AMA approved simply by AMA being a party to the project, and AMA will be forced into an expensive legal battle and/or repay all funds back.

I can write a book on that one! 


Horrace

[Howard Rush]

Durn tootin' the AMA should be financially involved at least to the extent of the proportion of dues coming from the West, and retroactive from when the Muncie site was built.  Donations specifically made for a Western site on top of this fair AMA share should return to the donors if you guys remain successful at cheating us.   

We agree that that statement leaves the door wide open.  We disagree over whether it's the front door or the back door. 

[Garf]

Why don't they open a center in Miami, Florida. At least there you could fly year round.

[Brett Buck]

If the project goes belly up, and all the funds are gone, my bet is that the donors will charge that all funds were AMA approved simply by AMA being a party to the project, and AMA will be forced into an expensive legal battle and/or repay all funds back.

  I want to know where all the previous money for this went, before one additional thin dime goes into it. If that is construed as not trusting the AMA to spend the money on the site, that is a correct inference.

    First they said they needed money to create a series of regional flying sites. They bought a site in the middle of nowhere, 2500 miles away, and then stopped. It's pretty nice, but it was sold as "one of many". That was a lie, as near as I can tell there was never any intention to go beyond that. Then, they relented, and they took a bunch of donations for a site in Visalia. Then they decided that, no, they didn't want to proceed. Money went somewhere, maybe for fancier and more luxurious chairs for the EC meeting room. It sure didn't go to a West Coast regional flying site, because THERE ISN'T ONE. So the funds must have misused, er, "spent pursuant to an AMA authorized expense".

 Now we come to 2011, and then they again want donations to build a West Coast site. As far as I can tell, all this looks like is another hand stuck out for , but subject to the same misuse. Sorry, I am going to need a lot more than "Any remaining funds not spent pursuant to an AMA authorized expense" this time around.

     Brett

  

[billbyles]

Why don't they open a center in Miami, Florida. At least there you could fly year round.

Except for hurricane season, and the daily rain in the summertime.  Had AMA built the site in Visalia years ago when they were apparently fraudulently asking for funds for same a large number of people would have truly been able to fly year round.

[Mike Keville]

Here we go again.  Keep one hand on your wallets, folks! 

[Brett Buck]

Had AMA built the site in Visalia years ago when they were apparently fraudulently asking for funds for same a large number of people would have truly been able to fly year round.

   I am sure it will be a lot different this time. Please send your checks in quickly!

   Brett

[Clint Ormosen]

   I am sure it will be a lot different this time. Please send your checks in quickly!

   Brett

Not a chance this time! I fell for the lie years ago and donated some money. Not a lot of money, but a lot for me. Instead, what we got was place to hold the NATS every year that I never attend because it's to damn far away! I want to see something set up SPECIFIC to a West Coast site. Some kind of account that they cannot pillage for anything else they deem "necessary". Then I might think about it.

Oh, and I'm with Brett. Where are the funds they collected last time this came up?

[Chris McMillin]

You guys have said it all.
Chris...

[RC Storick]

I would think that if there were more sites from cost to cost there would be a new batch of NATS winners. Not saying past winners weren't the best just that some who can not spend $1000 and a week off would be able to attend. So I think there would be some different outcomes.

[peabody]

These are all good and valid points, I'm sure....
But I hope that there will at least be an exploritory committee that can present the proposal, IN TOTAL, to the membership and that opinions will be sought.
I like the idea of regional sites....and the left coast surely deserves one.

[Eric Viglione]

Ya, I find it a bit disingenuous to take donations for a project like this, and putting in an escape clause for the funds. Almost as bad as the current herd of politico's that run for office and even if some of them are total morons and don't stand a chance, they still get to keep their campaign war chest when they lose just in case they take another run...and if they don't run again, the money just mysteriously dissapears...heh.

I would think it would be a simple matter for an organization like AMA to just have their Lawyer wander down to the local Bank and open up an IOLTA account (a type of interest bearing trust account basically, but the interest goes to the client while the funds are held in trust) for the D-X site fund donations above a certain dollar amount (small donations might not be worth the bank fee's to track). With this structure in place, it would be a simple matter to just disperse the funds back to the donor's if the project falls through.

The fact that AMA isn't conducting themselves in this manner makes it difficult to asses the sincerity in their actions.

EricV

[Brett Buck]

I would think that if there were more sites from cost to cost there would be a new batch of NATS winners. Not saying past winners weren't the best just that some who can not spend $1000 and a week off would be able to attend. So I think there would be some different outcomes.

   Maybe not as much at the very top end (I am pretty sure that David and Paul could manage to make it to a Fresno NATS), but certainly would shake up a lot of the rest of it. Face it, the NATS is turning into a big Midwest local for the most part. Only the gluttons for punishment/die-hards can still make it if they are more than a days drive away. We have had local stunt contests that rivaled the NATs entries.

    I think everybody would be on board with the idea of regional flying sites. Make a second Muncie in the central valley and it would be fantastic. The problem is that *absolutely no one thinks that the AMA will follow through with it*. They promised lots of stuff in the past, all of which NEVER HAPPENED. They took money for a site and then used it for something else.   Once this gets dropped (and it will, based on the "lack of support" and "hostility of the locals" excuses, besides, it's "too far away"), they will hit someone else up somewhere else. District 10 is the best place to look for marks; lots of money, lots of people,  and desperate need for sites.

   After buying the Muncie site based on completely fallacious sales pitches, and after taking money for a site and the pissing it away on something else, they have blown any residual credibility that they may have had.


    Brett

[Tim Wescott]

I think everybody would be on board with the idea of regional flying sites.

Does anyone here happen to know how much it costs to rent a county fairground, or portion thereof, for a weekend?

Those things tend to go begging during the majority of the year when there aren't any fairs.  I know that they're absolutely fantastic venues for street rod runs, with plenty of fenced-off space, grand stands, empty buildings to use, parking, vendors that know the way there, etc.  The only three problems that I could see with using them for a big CL meet would be price, the availability of flat paved areas for circles (which would vary from fairground to fairground), and the fact that they may just be too darn BIG for the amount of people that they could draw.

If the AMA were serious about hosting the nats, it would at least inquire.  And there's got to be a way to make a nice temporary circle out of expanded metal or bamboo mats or something that would answer the "paved circle" problem.

[john e. holliday]

Too bad WAM went belly up.   I thought they had some decent rules for some of their events.   

[Walter Hicks]

I live 20 miles from the failed sight in Visalia,Ca. I have friends who put numerous hours and time and $ toward that project. It failed due to environmental
issues.  The area is still "Cow Pasture".  Maby more homework should be done before sinking $ into such adventures. And yes we do fly all 12 months
in the Central Valley, California . It is getting increasingly more difficult to find flying sites for large contests here in the Central Valley. The Last Golden State Contest held at Clovis North High School Clovis ,California may have had its last fling as someone was seriously upset about the noise from the airplanes . There are two dedicated  fields in the Southern California area and one is possibly in jeopardy. I would hope somehow it would be possible to secure an area dedicated to model airplane flying.

I have been to two contests at Scobee ? Field in Houston Texas. Excellent facilities, very large and open and dedicated to the cause. But unfortunately this is rare. Maby flying electric will help the situation. Some of us are addicted to the smell of burnt Klotz and Castor and will have to change! As we get older our hearing goes anyway...

[Brian Massey]

I live 20 miles from the failed sight in Visalia,Ca. I have friends who put numerous hours and time and $ toward that project. It failed due to environmental
issues.  The area is still "Cow Pasture".  Maby more homework should be done before sinking $ into such adventures. And yes we do fly all 12 months
in the Central Valley, California . It is getting increasingly more difficult to find flying sites for large contests here in the Central Valley. The Last Golden State Contest held at Clovis North High School Clovis ,California may have had its last fling as someone was seriously upset about the noise from the airplanes . There are two dedicated  fields in the Southern California area and one is possibly in jeopardy. I would hope somehow it would be possible to secure an area dedicated to model airplane flying.

Hey Walter; I sent a letter to the Clovis North Deputy Principal after the contest was over thanking them for the use of the facility and asked if we did a good job of clean up and if we caused any "problems". So far I have not received a response back so I'm hoping that the complaint was never formally made, or came from someone that complains after every football game. I also heard (not verified) that the complaint came from a realtor trying to sell adjoining properties, not a homeowner.

I would love to see a West Coast AMA flying site, especially here in the Central Valley. I'll never be able to afford a trip to Muncie or Brodaks. I've penciled out the VSC and at 1500 miles round trip that looks effie. If my brother didn't live 30 miles from the Northwest Regional site (1300 miles round trip for me) I probably couldn't make that every year. Sure wish the Navy still hosted the Nats, Lemoore would be cool.
 
And yes, we can fly here all year long . . . the only problem is the bitter winter cold! It's so cold now that I've had to put my shorts away till next April.

Brian

[Brett Buck]

Too bad WAM went belly up.   I thought they had some decent rules for some of their events.   

  Nothing that changed the contests in any significant way. I flew just about every WAM contest from 1983 until it finally "faded" in the mid 00's (probably the last old-line WAM contest was Eat Chili and Fly day in El Cerrito, in about 2004 or 05). We still have Fun(d) Day. But nothing was different enough to consequentially bear in this discussion.

    Brett

[bill bischoff]

Scobee field may be an exception rather than a rule. It is in a flood plain, which makes it an ideal area for recreational use, but unsuitable for more "essential" uses. I have seen it flooded all the way up to the railroad levee just west of Texas Hwy 6! It is also far enough from populated areas to not have noise problems. In fact, there is a gun range nearby. But just finding a good location doesn't mean the facility will spring up by itself. In Houston, they have HAMCI, (which I believe is Houston Aeromodelling Council Inc.), a coalition of many clubs in the area. Strength in numbers.
Bill Lee had a lot to do with this. Hopefully he will comment. I don't know how much financial assistance they got from AMA, but they didn't expect the AMA to do the work for them.

I may be just talking out my a$$, but it seems there are enough interested and dedicated modellers in the area to get the ball rolling on this without the AMA. Collect your own money. Don't let AMA get their hands on it unless/until it is time to buy property and you can't close the deal without them. If you can't make a go of it, you can give people their money back. It's a shame that AMA has to bee seen as an obstacle, but if that's how it is, go at it without them.

[Don Hutchinson AMA5402]

I believe the California free flighters own a big site at lost Hills. Anyone ever talked to them about laying an asphalt area for control line use??

[Hoss Cain]

Scobee field may be an exception rather than a rule.
//snip//

 In Houston, they have HAMCI, (which I believe is Houston Aeromodeling Council Inc.), a coalition of many clubs in the area. Strength in numbers.
Bill Lee had a lot to do with this. Hopefully he will comment. I don't know how much financial assistance they got from AMA, but they didn't expect the AMA to do the work for them.
//SNIP//

The original concepts of HAMCI as a group of Clubs has long faded into the sunset.

HAMCI now consists of THREE (3) individuals, maybe just 2 now, that are the officers of the original corporation, HAMCI, and is maintained only because HAMCI is the unit that Harris County negotiated with, and Harris County does not want to hear of any changes, thus HAMCI still exists, really in name only.
 
Scobee is the name of the facility. The Bayou City Flyers is the Host Club charged with maintaining the set-up. Problem is that anyone can fly there with no membership in BCF. Yet BCF through HAMCI is REQUIRED to assure that all fliers are AMA members for insurance purposes. That gets to be a ball-of-snakes.

Again just a FEW of the MANY doing all the work and having to assume ALL the responsibility. Yes, I maintain a membership in Bayou City Flyers, yet I seldom go there. Just a $ support for a club that has a load on its shoulders, and doesn't get much appreciation. 

[Howard Rush]

Clovis North is nice, but cost us $500 last year to rent the farthest corner of the field from the bathroom.  Castle AFB looks like a good Golden State site, maybe even a good permanent site.  I haven't done anything about it other than to correspond a little with Mike from Atwater. 

[peabody]

Brian mentioned a KEY in site retention.....THANK YOUS!
Officials like to be acknowledged.
I regularly sent thank you notes to the Bergen County officials....and they have been kind enough to grant a pretty nice temporary site, and threaten to get a permanent site.
These guys in Florida are fortunate that they have been allowed a circle (or tow or three during a contest) by an active rc club that flies on County property...way cool.
Have fun!

[Brian Massey]

Clovis North is nice, but cost us $500 last year to rent the farthest corner of the field from the bathroom.  Castle AFB looks like a good Golden State site, maybe even a good permanent site.  I haven't done anything about it other than to correspond a little with Mike from Atwater. 

Howard;

As yet I haven't, but I do plan on going up to Atwater to look it over. I have used Google satelite view to take a peek, but you can only tell there is lots of concrete. I've been told that there are many cracks and joints that would give landings and takeoffs a fit. I'm also going to look at the tarmac at Madera Airport, and if that looks good I'll speak with the airport manager.

But the Clovis location is nice with the hotel and banquet facilities next door to each other; won't find that in many places. I'll start looking around in ernest early next year. I'm also not forgetting Buchanan which everyone seemed to like. When I start the quest, I'm going to speak to the Clovis Chamber and see if they might be able to help, and maybe even support in someway. They are very active in promoting Clovis (of course), but seem to be a lot more active than many chambers.

I'm very open to suggestions by the way.

Brian

[Bruce Shipp]

Every week I drive by Texas Motor Speedway on the way to/from work.  Every other weekend there is something going on in the parking lots. Today it appeared to be a flea market or similar with large tents and ample parking.  Other weeks it is the state troopers having a driving clinic or Chevy doing demo rides for the latest ‘Vette on an autocross type track.  I always have the same two thoughts:  I could land a cub about anywhere on the ground, and the parking lot would make a great CL field.
I fly over the Nascar tracks around the country and they have one thing in common that we would like: big flat open areas for parking.  The lots closest to the tracks are usually paved (wink, wink) and the outlying lots are usually turf.  They appear to be every bit as big if not bigger than the Muncie sight. 
I would think our activities would fit in with the motor sport theme nicely.  And the locals’ surely wouldn’t complain about our noise.  Have you ever been to a Nascar or Indy car race?  Incredibly loud! These facilities all seem to have a lot of open time and could possibly be utilized for a week long NATS with room for all disciplines.  I wonder if the AMA could work something out with these tracks and get a Nats done west of the Mississippi?

[Randy Powell]

It would be awfully nice to have a west coast site where the Nats could be held every couple of years. It's the only way I'll ever make one. But I agree with Brett. I don't want to donate money that will go down a rat hole somewhere and no site ever happens.

[john e. holliday]

NASCAR tracks do have lots of areas that could be used.  The new track in Kansas City KANSAS has acres of grass a local free flight group was using with permission of the CEO.   Someone on the board asked him if they were paying the rent for the use of the area.   The group can't afford $180.00 a day for the use of the fields.  I have thought of asking about a portion of a paved area that is near a very flat grassy area until I heard about the FF problem.   But, I have given up on getting a club going in the KC area for now.

[David M Johnson]

The Phoenix club approached the NASCAR track here and was quoted 3000 for rental for the parking lot... 
David Johnson

[Peter Ferguson]

R/C and CL have such different requirements and limitations what looks good on this board may not on the R/C ones. In my experience , the friendiest places to deal with in getting a place to fly CL are the regional airports. They speak our language and like to take credit for doing something for the community, but R/C can't exist there.
A friendly group that will support both is Waste Mgmt, they already have an agreement with the AMA and the landfills are usually big enough to support a combined CL and R/C field. I would work that end of it if you are looking for a combined function site. A long term lease on a closed landfill would avoid the huge startup costs of purchasing open land and the need to raise money from the "once burned" beneficiaries.

[Brett Buck]

I believe the California free flighters own a big site at lost Hills. Anyone ever talked to them about laying an asphalt area for control line use??

    That's probably the most plausible/practical suggestion I have yet heard. 

      Brett

[Charlie Pate]

  Control line will receive the same amount of attention as it has from the magazine, im sure.