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Author Topic: AMA pretends to be interested in Controline, but...  (Read 3012 times)

Offline Frank Imbriaco

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AMA pretends to be interested in Controline, but...
« on: March 15, 2023, 07:33:52 AM »
About 8 months ago, I had a nice conversation with Tony Stillman from the AMA. To begin with, Tony is a good guy and was interested in what I had to say. I told him of my attempts to have R/C clubs allow me to fly some controline while R/C activities are minimal. Out of seven clubs in my area, only one has shown any interest.
There are hours at all R/C fields when sun in the face keeps pilots grounded. That, coupled with the fact that R/C activity is in steady decline (at least in my area), I thought it would be a way to boast membership in clubs and utilize facilities to the fullest.
Realizing that R/C clubs are under no obligation to allow tethered flight, I implored Tony to speak with editor Jay Smith and AMA brass to run articles and encourage R/C clubs to give controline a shot.
I also told him that I introduced controline at my former R/C club 15 years ago and all sides discovered it to be a perfect marriage. Unfortunately for me, I moved about 100 miles from that field. Also worthy of mention is the fact that Controline flying works very well when heli pilots are active. Simultaneous activity- no problem.
 Sadly, it's been crickets from the AMA.
My purpose in posting this is not to bash the AMA. Rather, it's an effort to get others involved who may be experiencing similar difficulties to reach out to the AMA as I did.
The power of suggestion just might help.

Offline Peter in Fairfax, VA

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Re: AMA pretends to be interested in Controline, but...
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2023, 07:52:07 AM »
So what does an ideal field setup look like?  My thinking is you have a 500' runway for the R/C fixed wing folks.   Facing that runway from the R/C pilot's position, you have at least one field to the right, left or behind for C/L or rotary wing R/C, ideally one of more C/L circles and a separate drone/heli field.  For the C/L area, it can have pavement for scale/speed, and grass for combat.  Also, big enough for free flight.  A person can dream.

Offline John Gluth

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Re: AMA pretends to be interested in Controline, but...
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2023, 09:12:13 AM »
In current culture, seems like EVERY AMA $75, active membership is an asset to AMA?
Good answers come only from asking the right questions.

Offline BillLee

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Re: AMA pretends to be interested in Controline, but...
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2023, 09:39:34 AM »
So what does an ideal field setup look like?  My thinking is you have a 500' runway for the R/C fixed wing folks.   Facing that runway from the R/C pilot's position, you have at least one field to the right, left or behind for C/L or rotary wing R/C, ideally one of more C/L circles and a separate drone/heli field.  For the C/L area, it can have pavement for scale/speed, and grass for combat.  Also, big enough for free flight.  A person can dream.
I actually built it once. It's called Scobee Field in Houston.
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Offline Chuck Matheny

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Re: AMA pretends to be interested in Controline, but...
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2023, 10:34:36 AM »
Many years ago I flew a Cox TD .049 plane at the local RC club field...[ERMA in Marysville]
The total  run time was limited to about 3 minutes tops.
There was only 1 other Club Member there...a Pattern Flyer [who I previously helped get his engine set up for a .049 Fan Trainer project]
About a week later the Club President came up to me and asked me to not fly C/L there any more.
I said OK and left it at that.
Some weeks or months passed and guess what...?
I caught the same Club President flying .020 powered C/L right on the runway. He actually took a nasty fall on our slick conveyor belt runway..but nevertheless once I saw that double standard loving hypocrite in action I decided that this club wasn't for me.
Years later he stumbled into me at a hobby shop [in Burlington / Mt. Vernon] and asked me why I left the club....


« Last Edit: March 15, 2023, 11:01:40 AM by Chuck Matheny »

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: AMA pretends to be interested in Controline, but...
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2023, 11:30:21 AM »
I too years ago as a member and officer asked the club if we could incorpprate control line flyers.  Thought I was going to be tarred and feathered.   Then when the then leaders of the club decided to increase club dues with out vote of the members.  I refused to rejoin espescially when I showed that I was still waiting on my AMA card. D>K
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Offline Jim Carter

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Re: AMA pretends to be interested in Controline, but...
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2023, 11:37:11 AM »
Hi Frank!  I probably should keep my thoughts to myself but please tolerate me for the moment.  I can't speak for the AMA but it seems to me that it is yours and my responsibility to "sell" the benefit of joint use to any club.  There is a local r/c club here in our city where there is a really nice field with sufficient area for one if not two grass circles but those areas have not been cut and prepared for said use and I doubt they ever will.  As I write this, I think I am the only r/c member with any interest in control line.  One thing is a fact, there is an incredible amount of down time when r/c'ers aren't there and I have actually used the fabric runway for takeoffs (most times I end up landing in the grass though).

The club charges $75 per year for membership which covers maintenance and a myriad of other expenses.  So, I am actually a dual use member and as such, I do both whenever I feel like it and none of the other members are there.  If I am flying control line and one of them shows up (especially one of the "hardcore"), I simply pack up my toys and go away with a big smile on my face!!  As for AMA, I doubt they have little to any say as to whether the club permits or restricts the use of the field other than to sanction / insure the field for model aviation. 

With that said, why not join the club, pay the dues and fly when they are not there.  Personally, I have more fun and can bring whoever I want as an observer and or helper.  I did have one encounter a few years ago when I brought a visiting friend who was helping me and did fly a couple of times that day.  The ruckus with the club officials occurred because he wasn't a member and didn't want to pay the dues to join.  I had invited him as my guest!!  Although he and I are still close friends, he hasn't been back there either!!

Jim Carter
Titusville, FL

Offline Miotch

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Re: AMA pretends to be interested in Controline, but...
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2023, 12:44:14 PM »
Last time I got back into C/L (not this time, but the time before that, in the mid 1990s), the local R/C club had a great field south of town and had a nice circle for C/L.   Very nice and there didn't seem to be any problems.  To me, at least.  The land got sold and they had to move.  Us Control line guys moved to a member's property in a nearby town.  And then out to Bob Reeves' place.  But it seemed to work nicely having the circle at the RC field.  It's not like we got in their way or anything.  But I'm sure there were some behind-the-scene politics where maybe some of the RC guys didn't want us around.  We hosted an annual contest and laid out some temporary circles for the two days, which probably pissed some of them off.  De Hill would know all of the politics, I'm sure.   I'm pretty sure the RC club actually morphed from what was originally a C/L and F/F club.

Offline Sean McEntee

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Re: AMA pretends to be interested in Controline, but...
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2023, 06:17:59 PM »
      A few years ago, the free flight club here in Colorado lost the auditorium that we held our annual "Ceiling Climb" at, and with that, several out-of-state flyers who, understandably, don't want to travel long distances to fly in the small high school gym that we were forced to accept.
     Last year, I helped officiate the State Science Olympiad Tournament with some club members.  The Tournament was held in Gallogly Events Center at my future alma mater, University of Colorado Colorado Springs.  The event center is significantly larger and has a higher ceiling; a better site than the auditorium was.  The problem was money: UCCS wanted $250/hour and that price tag, to put on a 9-hour contest, is about out of any club's financial reach. 
      I turned to UCCSs chapter of the Aeronautical and Astronautical Institute of America.  AAIA holds a nationwide annual competition for undergraduate students to design, build and fly fixed wing UAS.  After much discussion over the course of the winter between UCCS, AAIA and myself on behalf of the free flight club, we were able secure Gallogly Events Center at no cost, with the AAIA chapter co-sponsoring the contest.  The FF club only had to pay a $75 fee (to pay the event guy to come in on the weekend and open the doors), and to host a building session with the AAIA club to build rubber-powered models that they could, in turn, fly in the contest.  Additionally, many FF club members offered to make private donations to the AAIA club, to help fund their trip down to Arizona for their competition next month.
      The point that I'm trying to make is that what you are describing is club individual/club business.  If it's strictly an R/C field, it's their decision and the AMA can't/won't come down, waive their finger at the RC guys and say "now you two play nice together.".  I totally agree with your assessment--consolidation in areas where participation is dwindling is a good idea--but if the club doesn't see it that way, it's an unfortunate loss to both parties.  The key is getting the other side to see that it is beneficial.  Yeah, that usually involves money and that can be tough, but creativity is the key.  UCCS prohibits ANY kind of money transaction during or even involving events.  To us, that meant no entry fee, no donations before, during or after the contest.  That kept me up at night for awhile.  In the end, we're putting on a free contest without entry fee.  After some critical thinking we realized that, while we aren't collecting revenue, we aren't spending it on site fees either and the rest of the cost to put on the contest, we can make up elsewhere.  So get creative.  While we can agree that the AMA sucks in many areas, deconflicting site usage really isn't in their scope of responsibility.

Offline Norm Faith Jr.

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Re: AMA pretends to be interested in Controline, but...
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2023, 10:45:16 PM »
The solution to not being allowed to fly C/L at RC sites will come about "naturally." With all of the new "gubberment" regulations for UAV,s and drones getting stricter, eventually R/C will be so over regulated that it will go by the wayside. We don't have this problem at our club. We fly R/C, C/L, rubber, limited free flight and R/C dirt track. Our two C/L meets we have every year are the biggest contributors to our club's finances.
Norm
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Offline mike londke

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Re: AMA pretends to be interested in Controline, but...
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2023, 09:51:19 AM »
Sam and I must live in a wormhole then because both RC clubs close to us allow and encourage us to fly CL at their sites. At the last swap meet one of the clubs presidents approached us and wanted to make sure we were going to attend their large weekend Profile RC event in 2 weeks to fly combat for people to watch. They love us and no one complains.  There are 2 other RC clubs in the Nashville area and I have flown CL at those as well. We have been welcome to fly at all 4 of the middle TN RC clubs over the years. I dunno why people seem to hit walls with RC clubs in other areas of the country but our experience has been positve in TN.
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Offline Chuck Matheny

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Re: AMA pretends to be interested in Controline, but...
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2023, 10:16:55 AM »
Sam and I must live in a wormhole then because both RC clubs close to us allow and encourage us to fly CL at their sites. At the last swap meet one of the clubs presidents approached us and wanted to make sure we were going to attend their large weekend Profile RC event in 2 weeks to fly combat for people to watch. They love us and no one complains.  There are 2 other RC clubs in the Nashville area and I have flown CL at those as well. We have been welcome to fly at all 4 of the middle TN RC clubs over the years. I dunno why people seem to hit walls with RC clubs in other areas of the country but our experience has been positve in TN.

That's great if you guys can make it work...but for a C/L operation to peacefully and safely co-exist with RC it would require a certain amount of co-operation, communication and respect for one another. I can easily visualize a scenario where you have a C/L Flyer already flying and fixated on his plane while some impatient RCer decides for himself that he's going to fly his plane while you are either busy flying or rolling up your lines.

Offline Jim Svitko

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Re: AMA pretends to be interested in Controline, but...
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2023, 11:37:20 AM »
Where I fly, there are only a few CL members in the club.  The RC membership vastly outnumbers the CL bunch, so you can imagine how little support we are going to get.  If all the CL guys quit or died off, the club would love to have our circle.  Although there are areas for helicopters and drones, it is a bit cramped and getting our circle would ease some of that congestion.

A few times, someone from the RC side will wander over and see what we are doing.  Some are amazed at the workmanship that went into a CL plane.  In years past, most RC fliers built their own plane.  Now, all I see are ready to fly foamies.  Many fliers do not have the time, desire, or skills to build anymore.  It is too easy to plug in and play.

What gets me is when someone from the RC side asks "when are you going to move up to RC"?  Really?  Too many RC clubs see CL fliers as second class modelers.  One club near me tried to get some involvement with CL.  That went nowhere fast.  A few of us went over there to check out the proposed CL site.  You would be better off flying from a freshly plowed field.  The club was never going to put the money and effort into something with so little interest.   

Online Brett Buck

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Re: AMA pretends to be interested in Controline, but...
« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2023, 12:01:16 PM »

What gets me is when someone from the RC side asks "when are you going to move up to RC"?  Really?  Too many RC clubs see CL fliers as second class modelers.

   That has been true for as long as I have flown, and, I will admit, when I was very young, CL was a stopgap to "moving up" to RC, because there was no way in the world to afford an RC rig. But, after flying stunt for a while, I "got it" and while I have flown some RC and am capable of safely getting on off the ground and back down again, I have a clear perspective and hae respect for all the various displines.

     I have also noted, after having had the opportunity to meet various championship-level FF and RC fliers, they usually *do not* look down on CL, and you can talk to them and interact with them just like we do with each other, for the most part. The people who think you should "move up to RC" are duffers and sport fliers, and the local supposed club experts, who are the kings of their hill because they can buy a low-wing ARF trainer and successfully fly it level. They can be quickly identified because they will tell you how much it cost in the first 2 minutes. This indicates they should be ignored.

    Don't expect understanding from the typical RC sport flier club dork, they don't understand RC very well, forget anything else. If you handed most them a Peck ROG kit, they would have no idea what to do with it. While I am sure there are exceptions, they are in large part, insufferable jerks, particularly when their egos are challenged by a competitive CL modeler, they know they don't measure up and feel compelled to try to one-up you.

    Brett

Offline Mike Morrow

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Re: AMA pretends to be interested in Controline, but...
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2023, 12:08:16 PM »
I'm pretty fortunate. At our club they had a C/L circle that was only used for drones and helis. I'm the only guy who flies C/L there regularly now and that's where I taught myself how to fly. The RC guys come over once and a while and a few brought out their old stuff but I'm pretty much in my own. They've always been encouraging so it's been pretty good.

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Offline Fred Cronenwett

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Re: AMA pretends to be interested in Controline, but...
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2023, 02:51:05 PM »
we have serveral clubs in the st louis area that fly both RC and CL. There is even a club in Kansas City that sanction a CL combat contest.  the joint clubs exist but you have t look for them.

One of our CL club members is working with the RC club in Dexter, MO where he has organized it where there will be RC and CL flying. Some RC pilots are surprised to find out that CL still exists and contests are still happening.

I fly at Buder Park in St Louis MO where we have everything being flown, Quads, rockets, RC and CL so I am use to the mix. We have four separate areas for each type of model so we don't have to coordinate anything in that regard.

You would be surprised on how many RC guys use to fly CL and have no idea how it's changes over the years.

Fred
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Offline Chuck Matheny

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Re: AMA pretends to be interested in Controline, but...
« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2023, 05:50:17 PM »
   That has been true for as long as I have flown, and, I will admit, when I was very young, CL was a stopgap to "moving up" to RC, because there was no way in the world to afford an RC rig.

  Brett

Brett..nowadays a Chinese RTF radio system  and plane is the "stop gap" until one can afford to "move up" to competition C/L Stunt.... LL~


Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: AMA pretends to be interested in Controline, but...
« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2023, 07:06:55 PM »
On a serious note, a few Model Aviation issues ago, Jay Smith of AMA did a very interesting interview with Dave Platt, who has designed and built all sorts of model aircraft. As an admirer of Dave Platt, I sent an email to Jay Smith and suggested that an interview with Paul Walker would be extremely interesting. Just got an email yesterday from Jay, saying that Paul's interview is in the pipeline, so keep looking at the last few pages of Model Aviation:o Steve
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Offline 944_Jim

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Re: AMA pretends to be interested in Controline, but...
« Reply #18 on: March 19, 2023, 07:32:30 PM »
Whenever I'm asked to "move up to RC," I counter-offer an invitation.
This is usually from the guy(s) that buy the $100+ RTF job from Amazon with however many props he brags about. I usually ask if CL is too much of a simpleton's toy.  Then, once he claims it is, I ask if he would like to try flying one of mine...after all "it has only one channel, and the job is the same... to keep it in the air, and then land with no power successfully. Any failure after that should be easy to fix...right?"
That's when the antagonist RC dudes get really quiet.

Offline Matt Colan

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Re: AMA pretends to be interested in Controline, but...
« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2023, 08:33:24 PM »
Whenever I'm asked to "move up to RC," I counter-offer an invitation.
This is usually from the guy(s) that buy the $100+ RTF job from Amazon with however many props he brags about. I usually ask if CL is too much of a simpleton's toy.  Then, once he claims it is, I ask if he would like to try flying one of mine...after all "it has only one channel, and the job is the same... to keep it in the air, and then land with no power successfully. Any failure after that should be easy to fix...right?"
That's when the antagonist RC dudes get really quiet.

I need to remember this!
Matt Colan

Offline Chuck Matheny

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Re: AMA pretends to be interested in Controline, but...
« Reply #20 on: March 19, 2023, 09:59:13 PM »
Whenever I'm asked to "move up to RC," I counter-offer an invitation.
This is usually from the guy(s) that buy the $100+ RTF job from Amazon with however many props he brags about. I usually ask if CL is too much of a simpleton's toy.  Then, once he claims it is, I ask if he would like to try flying one of mine...after all "it has only one channel, and the job is the same... to keep it in the air, and then land with no power successfully. Any failure after that should be easy to fix...right?"
That's when the antagonist RC dudes get really quiet.

Ask the RCer to do 3 consecutive vertical hourglasses with  5 foot pull outs...at WOT.... over asphalt with his Saito 65 powered NoCanDoo ARF.

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: AMA pretends to be interested in Controline, but...
« Reply #21 on: March 19, 2023, 11:28:00 PM »
I have always considered RC as a step down from CL.  Even the 3D stuff is kids play compared to the skills you need to win at Expert in PA but it is still a hobby and if the ARF RC types enjoy it, leave them to it.  Once upon a time we all flew just about whatever we could.  I didn't bother with any out of town contest unless it included FF and CL.  I would fly 1/2A and A gas FF, A-1 and A-2 Nordic, HLG, Stunt (we called it stunt back then), Rat and combat.  Sometimes all in the same day.  Now we are specialized and have formed groups around our specialty.  Of all the disciplines I have flown, including RC Soaring, PA is by far the most skilled followed closely by A-2.  My oldest daughter was a champion ice skater before the elimination of figures.  The precision required to win at that was exceptional but even that was simple compared to flying a *perfect* hourglass.  Sad part is that nobody at the AMA remembers their roots.

Ken
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Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: AMA pretends to be interested in Controline, but...
« Reply #22 on: March 20, 2023, 10:50:46 AM »
Back in the early 1980's, when I was first learning to circle tow an F1A (aka "A-2" or "Nordic Glider"), about 4 times a week, I'd get the wife and toddler son (now 44) into the fab Strat-O-Van and zip down to the inlaws, drop spousal unit and boy off and go another couple of miles to the Boeing Space Center and put up a half dozen or more short DT flights. Usual deal was to tow up, find a thermal or two, then launch into the 2nd or 3rd one. On one of those evenings, an R/C guy walked over from their strip and said "What frequency ya flyin'?". My reply, of course, was "Three or four times a week, if the old lady will let me." He walked off shaking his head. I admit it, I giggled.  y1 Steve
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: AMA pretends to be interested in Controline, but...
« Reply #23 on: March 20, 2023, 11:27:17 AM »
Sad part is that nobody at the AMA remembers their roots.

   They remember - when it suits them. They will trot out the "100th" nationals, their great youth programs, point out the Neil Armstrong and Hoot Gibson were/are AMA members, etc. Anything to obfuscate the fact that what the AMA really is - an advertising agency selling expensive toys to middle-aged men. They are also insurance brokers. They are also selling or giving away contact information for direct advertising or solicitations.

     There's nothing wrong with that, particularly, and whether that is consistent with their non-profit (of whatever variety) status us a matter between the lawyers and the IRS. But they will never fully admit to the reality, because it takes it from a noble community service organization to a pretty ordinary business. I am sure they will point out that the advertising, etc, makes possible the other activities, like competitions support, FAI representation, etc, that generate no revenue or are losses. Without a plan to get ad money, there would be no "National Aeromodeling Center".

     While I don't care for this sort of misrepresentation, we all benefit from it, and there is an argument to be made that the ends justify the means. It's hardly the only example, many/most things in public life are misrepresented to one degree or another to make them more palatable. But to understand what happens, you have to grasp the reality, in this case, that the AMA is primarily a toy catalog. But that is not a description that "sells" the AMA, and if you described it that way, no one would care about it in the least.  But "community based organization" creating the "leaders of tomorrow" sounds pretty good.

    We are, for the most part, getting what we want out of it, so, aside from the annoyance, just take it for what it is.

      Brett

Offline Chuck Matheny

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Re: AMA pretends to be interested in Controline, but...
« Reply #24 on: March 20, 2023, 01:41:13 PM »
I have always considered RC as a step down from CL.

Ken
Ken...I agree...but this is how I reward some of my worn out AMA Fast Combat planes before they reach BURN BARREL STATUS.


Offline John Gluth

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Re: AMA pretends to be interested in Controline, but...
« Reply #25 on: March 28, 2023, 03:57:04 PM »
  Sad part is that nobody at the AMA remembers their roots.

Ken

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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: AMA pretends to be interested in Controline, but...
« Reply #26 on: March 28, 2023, 05:56:58 PM »
AMA's right-hand could afford to know what the left-hand is doing  y1

Did you notice that there were no CL planes in that presentation?  :(

Ken
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Offline John Gluth

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Re: AMA pretends to be interested in Controline, but...
« Reply #27 on: March 29, 2023, 12:23:47 AM »
Ken,
Perhaps there is perspective to be gained from most issues of AMA THIS WEEK subscription available at modelaircraft.org https://www.modelaircraft.org/newsletters/ama-this-week where you can manage your email preferences. I'm talking traditional free flight and controline.
John
« Last Edit: March 29, 2023, 06:17:49 AM by John Gluth »
Good answers come only from asking the right questions.

Offline John Gluth

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Re: AMA pretends to be interested in Controline, but...
« Reply #28 on: July 06, 2023, 02:41:02 PM »
Each week AMA Publications offers a Controline reference.
Included PAMPA link with latest AMA This Week subscription.

National Aeromodeling Championships : https://nats.modelaircraft.org/discipline/control-line-precision-aerobatics

John Gluth
Good answers come only from asking the right questions.

Offline Ty Marcucci

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Re: AMA pretends to be interested in Controline, but...
« Reply #29 on: July 06, 2023, 04:48:23 PM »
There are four sites I have flown at that were combination RC/CL sites and never a problem.  But then locally, don't get me started....but it worked out great in the long run, from one potential circle to three plus rest rooms and lots of parking at a school foot ball stadium.  The local RC club is on a landfill, their runway is going to hell with sinking, cracking and the road to it is worse and they lost 15 plus potential members. D>K

A big BZ to Paducah, El Dorado, Clanton and Memphis clubs...
Ty Marcucci

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: AMA pretends to be interested in Controline, but...
« Reply #30 on: July 06, 2023, 05:45:59 PM »
I think we should give AMA the old raspberries, and include MAAC while we're at it. Both organizations suck bigtime.

One night at a NW Skyraiders meeting, I asked the masses if, when the club folds our tent for the last time, would they support giving our fairly significant funds to the AMA? Almost every member indicated that they would not support that. AMA, BAH, Pooey!  R%%%% Steve
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In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Offline Frank Imbriaco

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Re: AMA pretends to be interested in Controline, but...
« Reply #31 on: July 06, 2023, 06:04:17 PM »
Glad to see this post has found new life. It's been a year since I spoke with Tony Stillman. Don't know whether or not the AMA will encourage flying sites/clubs to adapt policies that encourage multi discipline use.
Far too often, flying fields in my neck of the woods are limited purpose.
Once again, I fully realize that clubs don't have to abide.
 But as we all know, the AMA certainly pushed the hell out of drones; believing they'd be a cash cow for them.
(BTW, I'm an active RC'er, too.)

Offline Colin McRae

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Re: AMA pretends to be interested in Controline, but...
« Reply #32 on: July 06, 2023, 06:43:52 PM »
Maybe our club is just lucky but we have a CL circle and really don't experience issues with the RCer's. Our club is the Wine Country Flyers in Forestville, CA (near Sants Rosa, CA). The CL area is off to the side of the main RC runway and not an issue for the RCers. Interesting that a lot of our club older members flew CL in their younger days and have moved on to RC. Just not interested in going back to CL. But one bright point for our club. Our club president who flies RC is going to build a CL Carl Goldberg Buster and give CL a re-try! So, I guess there is some hope.

The CL experience is just not what it used to be. Case in point: Our club has like 80+ members, but only 4 of us fly CL. We try to get new young members interested in CL, but they are just not into it. Also, the AMA magazine dedicates like 2 pages to CL (basically nothing), and zero CL related advertising. You see what I mean. Just not a lot of interest in CL.

One thing that benefits our club is that a few of our club members fly both RC and CL. They like the fact that CL and RC are totally different experiences which they enjoy.

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: AMA pretends to be interested in Controline, but...
« Reply #33 on: July 06, 2023, 10:25:11 PM »
You are so lucky.  So, take care of that club and site. D>K
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Offline Dennis Leonhardi

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Re: AMA pretends to be interested in Controline, but...
« Reply #34 on: July 06, 2023, 10:35:54 PM »
   That has been true for as long as I have flown, and, I will admit, when I was very young, CL was a stopgap to "moving up" to RC, because there was no way in the world to afford an RC rig. But, after flying stunt for a while, I "got it" and while I have flown some RC and am capable of safely getting on off the ground and back down again, I have a clear perspective and hae respect for all the various displines.

     I have also noted, after having had the opportunity to meet various championship-level FF and RC fliers, they usually *do not* look down on CL, and you can talk to them and interact with them just like we do with each other, for the most part. The people who think you should "move up to RC" are duffers and sport fliers, and the local supposed club experts, who are the kings of their hill because they can buy a low-wing ARF trainer and successfully fly it level. They can be quickly identified because they will tell you how much it cost in the first 2 minutes. This indicates they should be ignored.

    Don't expect understanding from the typical RC sport flier club dork, they don't understand RC very well, forget anything else. If you handed most them a Peck ROG kit, they would have no idea what to do with it. While I am sure there are exceptions, they are in large part, insufferable jerks, particularly when their egos are challenged by a competitive CL modeler, they know they don't measure up and feel compelled to try to one-up you.

    Brett


 y1 y1 y1 y1 y1

I'll never forget one of the country's top RC Pylon Racers coming up to me after I'd won the Open Combat event in a major AAA contest and telling me he always wanted to be able to fly combat "like you do" but knew he couldn't take the time and effort to achieve that while maintaining his RC skills.

I've totally enjoyed officiating a competitive sport at the national championship and Olympic Trials level.  And I've always said "good competitors 'KNOW'".  Anything else is just idle chatter ...

Dennis
Think for yourself !  XXX might win the Nats, be an expert on designing, building, finishing, flying, tuning engines - but you might not wanna take tax advice from him.  Or consider his views on the climate to be fact ...

Offline Steve Dwyer

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Re: AMA pretends to be interested in Controline, but...
« Reply #35 on: July 07, 2023, 06:22:18 AM »
There are three RC clubs in Central New York that have a control line(s) circle adjacent to the RC runway. Generally the active CL member or members must take it upon themselves the maintain the CL field with the exception of one the larger clubs. The numbers say it all, if a club has 75 active members there may be 1 or 2 that fly control line. Don't expect much participation or response no matter how beautiful your ship is or your talent in the circle. It's like "pushing a rope", most RC flyers for the most part especially the older guys are curious only because of some memories 50 years back but not at all interested. The newer younger members forget it, they are clueless, you won't even turn their heads. AMA recognizes the member support numbers and markets to the appropriate population. If you want your CL gaggle of folks to be "accepted" by a RC club and offered to fly on their turf choose the most likable, friendliest, enthusiastic, energetic and politically adept one of your group to lead the way into the RC klatch, it's your only hope.
Steve

Online Gerald Arana

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Re: AMA pretends to be interested in Controline, but...
« Reply #36 on: July 07, 2023, 09:01:36 AM »
I'm pretty fortunate. At our club they had a C/L circle that was only used for drones and helis. I'm the only guy who flies C/L there regularly now and that's where I taught myself how to fly. The RC guys come over once and a while and a few brought out their old stuff but I'm pretty much in my own. They've always been encouraging so it's been pretty good.

Mike Morrow

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WOW! That is one nice looking lawn. I'd like to fly off that grass. Thanks for sharing.

Cheers, Jerry


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Re: AMA pretends to be interested in Controline, but...
« Reply #37 on: July 07, 2023, 09:15:17 AM »
Ken...I agree...but this is how I reward some of my worn out AMA Fast Combat planes before they reach BURN BARREL STATUS.


WOW! That was awesome! I don't know how you kept track of which side was up.........for me, I'd have to have one side black so I could see which side was up!
Cheers, Jerry

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Re: AMA pretends to be interested in Controline, but...
« Reply #38 on: July 07, 2023, 11:51:45 AM »
Ken...I agree...but this is how I reward some of my worn out AMA Fast Combat planes before they reach BURN BARREL STATUS.


WOW!! That was some of the greatest control line flying I have ever seen...   LL~ LL~ LL~

Dennis

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Re: AMA pretends to be interested in Controline, but...
« Reply #39 on: July 07, 2023, 12:04:00 PM »
I fly at a small RC club with only 1 cl flyer... me!  The club is small enough for there to be a lull in the rc activity when I can take a turn in the middle of the rc runway. 

The guys are always keen to help and they enjoy watching the spectacle.  I am indulged even further by them mowing a circle at the runway intersection.

Steve

Offline Colin McRae

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Re: AMA pretends to be interested in Controline, but...
« Reply #40 on: July 07, 2023, 02:01:46 PM »
One thing that has helped a bit at out predominately RC club is that the few of the CL guys have a couple of CL trainers. One 1/2a size and one 25 size. We bring them to the field now and then and offer a few rookie laps (with a bit of initial basic CL training) to anyone interested. Still not a lot of interest, but some interest which is great. Both are simple solid balsa wing models and have crashed and been repaired many times. They don't fly very well but can easily go in a circle with basic up and down controls. They also have very small fuel tanks that only allow for 1-2 minutes in the air to combat the initial dizzy factor for a newbie.

If an interested bystander just watches others fly CL, normally not a great experience for a prospective CL newbie. But if allowed to do a few laps it definitely sparks their interest since they can 'feel' the model when flying. A totally different experience from RC.

Offline Ty Marcucci

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Re: AMA pretends to be interested in Controline, but...
« Reply #41 on: July 07, 2023, 05:09:54 PM »
It's real simple, money talks and if it does not bring in money, "fahgetaboutit".  There is no true money being made in CL of any type, 90% is cottage industry in which most last five years.

Thus no  money is spent on advertising in any magazine, so no interest.. D>K

Name one mass produced American engine for CL.  PA and Rojett are not "mass produced" like K&B, Fox, Cox, ST, O&R, etc .  SIG is pretty much gone, Fox, gone, leaving only Brodak and John bought out several older brand names to try to continue  into the future.  Even RSM seems to be moving away from CL (rumors). D>K
Ty Marcucci

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Re: AMA pretends to be interested in Controline, but...
« Reply #42 on: July 07, 2023, 07:09:11 PM »
I just received the 3 editions of Flying Models including Gordan Delaney's Pathfinder articles. I wanted these to review Gordan's info before beginning my PF twin. I found it interesting, in the March 1995 issue there is a good deal of control line information. The first two pages are devoted to Americas Hobby Center's advertisement covering first control line, engines (many control line makes and models), some RC stuff, rubber powered and free flight. Gordan's 7 page article was near the center fold. The adds reminded me of the old MAN of the 50's with page after page of CL modeling kits and supplies where I'd spend hours.

Next I looked through the August 2010 issue. American Hobby is gone and aside from Gordan's twin article and a brief 1 to 2 page input on CL stunt planes and combat it's mostly devoted the RC models and advertising. In five years the hobby had taken a new direction and Flying Models was no longer selling CL advertisement. Oh yes the '95 issue was 90 pages while the 2010 had dwindled to 70. The rest is history.

Steve

Offline Mike Griffin

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Re: AMA pretends to be interested in Controline, but...
« Reply #43 on: July 07, 2023, 09:23:46 PM »
"Even RSM seems to be moving away from CL (rumors). D>K"

TY you cannot even get Mike Hanson at RSM to answer a phone or return an email.  When Eric sold it, it started downhill and continues to do so.  I do not think it will survive much longer.  I got out of producing kits a few years ago, Walter is no longer producing, and this pretty much leaves Brodak as the only reliable CL kit manufacturer.  Sad, but true.

Mike

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Re: AMA pretends to be interested in Controline, but...
« Reply #44 on: July 08, 2023, 06:19:16 AM »
I want to correct naming the author of the three Flying Models articles I brought up. John Miller authored all three covering his personal experiences and Gordan Delaney's accomplishments.

Mike G.

I know very little about Mike Hanson except he was very supportive several years back when I bought the RSM control set up for my Primary Force Electric build. I wonder if he has fallen behind on enough sales volume in order to keep afloat? The ills of running a business as some of you know can be difficult to sustain. The cost of doing business covering insurance, leasing a facility if it's the case, price increases from suppliers, lights and heat, paying back the seller, employees, advertisement it goes on. How often does someone find themselves way over their head financially after the "honeymoon" allure goes away, especially if you are blinded by a passion like a hobby? It's not long before it's a spiraling crash that's smoldering on the ground. Mike might have gone back to work to a real job, we all have to eat. For any business owner it's got to be painful loss, and if this analogy is anywhere near correct he may be passing by the ash pit hearing a phone ring from a new customer. There's always a feeling of hope in a new call but in the end...well you know the rest. I'd like to see Mike come back, I hope he does.

I support Brodak as often as I can, it'll be a challenge without them.

Steve


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