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Author Topic: ama number requirement  (Read 2662 times)

Offline Robert Zambelli

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ama number requirement
« on: August 05, 2021, 06:37:54 AM »
I should know this but I don't.

 What are the rules for placement and size of our ama numbers on stunt planes?

    Can they be on the fuselage sides or on the rudder?

    Thanks for any help

       Bob Z.

Offline Fred Quedenfeld jr

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Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: ama number requirement
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2021, 07:33:16 AM »
I should know this but I don't.

 What are the rules for placement and size of our ama numbers on stunt planes?

    Can they be on the fuselage sides or on the rudder?

    Thanks for any help

       Bob Z.
The Rulebook is on line via the AMA link at the top of the site.  Fred's link is correct.  Since the AMA site is not the easiest to navigate you might try copying the links into your favorites.

2.4.
All models shall be identified by the contestant’s AMA license number
permanently affixed to the upper side of the right-hand lifting surface or to
each side of the fuselage or vertical stabilizer. The height of numerals
shall be at least one (1) inch (25.4 mm). Both stroke and width shall be
such to enable ready recognition. It is suggested that the letters USA
(25mm [1 inch] or higher) be placed at least once on the model

Ken
AMA 15382
If it is not broke you are not trying hard enough.
USAF 1968-1974 TAC

Offline Robert Zambelli

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Re: ama number requirement
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2021, 12:31:18 PM »
THANKS, Fred an Ken - that's just the information I needed.

Bob Z.

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: ama number requirement
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2021, 02:22:01 PM »
Note that they don't say anything about how much contrast there needs to be.  This loophole has been exploited here in the Pacific Northwest by jokers either putting like-colored monocoat letters on a monocoat wing, or ghosting their AMA number onto the wing.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: ama number requirement
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2021, 02:56:32 PM »
What about 2.3 I guess you can't use a different plane for your second flight unless you crash or something?


Motorman 8)
y1

AMA 15382
If it is not broke you are not trying hard enough.
USAF 1968-1974 TAC

Offline Trostle

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Re: ama number requirement
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2021, 03:18:30 PM »
What about 2.3 I guess you can't use a different plane for your second flight unless you crash or something?

Motorman 8)

It has been that way for the past 50 or 60 years.

Keith

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: ama number requirement
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2021, 03:23:31 PM »
What about 2.3 I guess you can't use a different plane for your second flight unless you crash or something?

  Correct.

    Brett

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: ama number requirement
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2021, 05:08:29 PM »
What about 2.3 I guess you can't use a different plane for your second flight unless you crash or something?


Motorman 8)

  That is what it says. Why else would you want or need to use a second plane?
   Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee
AMA 28784
EAA  1038824
AMA 480405 (American Motorcyclist Association)

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: ama number requirement
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2021, 07:52:29 PM »
By the same token what would be the advantage. If you built a couple of planes and want to fly them what's the problem. Seems like a silly rule, I don't get it.

Motorman 8)

   There is a wise old Indian saying, " For those that understand, no explanation is necessary. For those that don't understand, no explanation is possible."

      It's not about "advantages." It's about consistency and presentation. You fly the best model you have, or that you fly the best, because you have spent a lot of time trimming, fine tuning the power plant, and practicing so that you know that particular airplane as well as possible, to make the best presentation possible for a set of judges.  Or at least your should have. If you had 4 models, nothing would be the same about them and bouncing around between planes thinking one will score better ain't gonna work. You show up and put your best effort in. A spare model is just so that you can get to fly another flight or two after driving 12 hours. If you just wanted to fly both, stay home and fly at your local flying field and fly them and save the gas/hotel money.


  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee
AMA 28784
EAA  1038824
AMA 480405 (American Motorcyclist Association)

Offline BillLee

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Re: ama number requirement
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2021, 08:09:38 AM »
The Rulebook is on line via the AMA link at the top of the site.  Fred's link is correct.  Since the AMA site is not the easiest to navigate you might try copying the links into your favorites.

2.4.
All models shall be identified by the contestant’s AMA license number
permanently affixed to the upper side of the right-hand lifting surface or to
each side of the fuselage or vertical stabilizer. The height of numerals
shall be at least one (1) inch (25.4 mm). Both stroke and width shall be
such to enable ready recognition. It is suggested that the letters USA
(25mm [1 inch] or higher) be placed at least once on the model

Ken

Keep in mind that the paragraph cited is for Stunt ONLY. For the rest of the world, the General rules state

4. Identification
All models, except Indoor, will be identified with the owner’s name and address
or AMA number, on or in the model. Individual events listed within this
(Competition Regulations) may have additional identification requirements which
must be adhered to.


Note, that there are no size nor placement specifications in the General rules as appear in the Stunt rules.
Bill Lee
AMA 20018

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: ama number requirement
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2021, 09:53:55 AM »
I guess old Indians don't believe in the educational system.
Considering the education system we have now I would say that not believing in it *IS* what makes the old Indian wise.

Ken
AMA 15382
If it is not broke you are not trying hard enough.
USAF 1968-1974 TAC

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: ama number requirement
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2021, 10:27:14 AM »
By the same token what would be the advantage. If you built a couple of planes and want to fly them what's the problem. Seems like a silly rule, I don't get it.

Motorman 8)

     How many airplanes do you have to process to start the contest - weigh, get appearance points, etc? Two? Five? They want to make judging multiple airplanes per entrant an exception (you crashed) rather than the rule. It's bad enough rounding everyone up for appearance with one airplane per entrant, it takes probably 1/2 hour -45 minutes to do at most medium-sized contests with one airplane per entrant. Doing multiple airplanes just multiplies the problem.

     Brett

Offline peabody

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Re: ama number requirement
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2021, 10:43:06 AM »
Seems to me that if the plane that is presented for appearance judging is irreparably damaged (Head Judge or CD must approve), a back up plane may be used. It will be appearance judged at the time of the first flight?

Mayhaps?
 

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: ama number requirement
« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2021, 12:04:48 PM »
Seems to me that if the plane that is presented for appearance judging is irreparably damaged (Head Judge or CD must approve), a back up plane may be used. It will be appearance judged at the time of the first flight?

Mayhaps?
Much depends on how the CD approaches appearance judging.  The plane does not become the 1st one till it is judged.  If the CD does this en mass before the first round then your #1 ship is that one.  If it is done at the beginning of the 1st official then it happens then.  Take the scenario where someone trips and falls on your plane in the pits before your 1st official.  If the police don't arrest you for aggravated homicide then you could substitute another plane.  If the appearance judging was over then the new plane would be the second.  If not then it would be the first.  Mostly it will be up to the CD.

Best advice - don't break your airplane then all of this will be moot. LL~

ken
AMA 15382
If it is not broke you are not trying hard enough.
USAF 1968-1974 TAC

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: ama number requirement
« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2021, 01:21:54 PM »
Seems to me that if the plane that is presented for appearance judging is irreparably damaged (Head Judge or CD must approve), a back up plane may be used. It will be appearance judged at the time of the first flight?

Mayhaps?


     It says that almost literally in 2.3, it is not in any way confusing or ambiguous, and as Ken points out, not remotely new.

    Crashing your primary airplane is *an exception*, meaning it is distinct from people trying to use different airplanes for other reasons and thus having people do it on a whim or for competitive advantage.

     Brett

Offline Trostle

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Re: ama number requirement
« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2021, 01:37:06 PM »
Seems to me that if the plane that is presented for appearance judging is irreparably damaged (Head Judge or CD must approve), a back up plane may be used. It will be appearance judged at the time of the first flight?

Mayhaps?

Some people seem to try to find a problem with or question the rules that have been established for decades.

From the rule book:  "2.3  Contestants will be allowed the use of a second model if the first is damaged or destroyed.  Appearance points will be awarded to the second model following verification of substantial damage to the first model.  The second model and its appearance points will be used for subsequent attempts."

Keith

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: ama number requirement
« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2021, 02:15:18 PM »
Some people ....

  Very few-  which is why it is such an incredibly tiresome little act.

   Brett

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: ama number requirement
« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2021, 08:37:17 PM »
I guess old Indians don't believe in the educational system.

    The wise old Indian got to be that way because when he was a young brave he learned to keep his mind, eyes and ears open and his mouth shut. The rule could not be any more clear or succinct. When you go to any contest, it's your responsibility to know and understand the rules of the event you are competing in. It's not any one else's job to educate you.

  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee
AMA 28784
EAA  1038824
AMA 480405 (American Motorcyclist Association)

Offline peabody

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Re: ama number requirement
« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2021, 06:36:56 AM »
At our Nats around the turn of the Century, John Benzing, a Brit, crashed on take off because he hooked the lines up wrong. It was his second official. He allowed as how he had a back up plane....which was actually the one that he had presented for appearance judging.

FAI doesn't care what you fly, almost.

All was forgiven....and an International Incident was averted.

John was a terrific guy and a mid-level Advanced flyer....and apologized for the misunderstanding.

Offline FLOYD CARTER

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Re: ama number requirement
« Reply #20 on: August 07, 2021, 09:57:11 AM »
Where there is a doubt, the CD has the power to rule whether the primary plane is "unable" to fly again,.  One case: During my first flight, the needle valve somehow broke off, causing an engine stop during the flight.  I did not have a replacement engine, but I had a back up plane.  The CD allowed my use of the second plane.
If the CD had refused, I would have accepted the ruling.  Now, I don;t think his decision was correct.  The plane was intact, but could not fly again.
91 years, but still going
AMA #796  SAM #188  LSF #020

Offline Trostle

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Re: ama number requirement
« Reply #21 on: August 07, 2021, 10:27:55 AM »
Where there is a doubt, the CD has the power to rule whether the primary plane is "unable" to fly again,.  One case: During my first flight, the needle valve somehow broke off, causing an engine stop during the flight.  I did not have a replacement engine, but I had a back up plane.  The CD allowed my use of the second plane.
If the CD had refused, I would have accepted the ruling.  Now, I don;t think his decision was correct.  The plane was intact, but could not fly again.

Hi Floyd,

"Contestants will be allowed the use of a second model if the first is damaged or destroyed."  Your engine/needle valve was "damaged", essentially rendering your your model to be unflyable.

You are correct that the CD has the authority to rule on almost any matter regarding the conduct of a contest.  In this case,  the CD clearly made the right decision.

Keith

Offline Trostle

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Re: ama number requirement
« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2021, 12:30:22 PM »
... only if a replacement was available.   (Maybe his backup plane had a different engine/NV.)   K


Offline Brett Buck

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Re: ama number requirement
« Reply #23 on: August 07, 2021, 01:06:40 PM »
Where there is a doubt, the CD has the power to rule whether the primary plane is "unable" to fly again,.  One case: During my first flight, the needle valve somehow broke off, causing an engine stop during the flight.  I did not have a replacement engine, but I had a back up plane.  The CD allowed my use of the second plane.

  Of course. The rule is designed to give people a break if something unfortunate happens. It is a rule only to prevent people trying to process multiple models as a competition strategy, causing all sorts of headaches for the CD.

    For everyone - here is the deal with the rules. All of these "conduct of the contest" type rules exist only to prevent *abuse*, not to try to catch anyone on anything.

   A perfect example is the 3 minutes - yes, by rule, you have 3 minutes after the last competitor has left the circle to signal for start. But, I can count on the fingers of one hand how many times someone has been put "on the clock" over this, and in those cases, only when it appeared that the competitor was trying to abuse it for competitive advantage. If someone is having a problem, there is *extreme tolerance* and only when it becomes a real problem is anyone informed that "you are on the clock".

   Same with 'attempts', same with the "wingover makes the pattern official" (as opposed to "when the model leaves the ground" or "when you signal for start"), and a myriad of other rules. Things that bear on the score directly, we follow to the letter, but the rest are there to cover outlandish conditions and to give everyone a chance without giving them a way to abuse the rules to get an advantage.

  No one is sitting there trying to "catch" anyone on the rules. You should know them and understand them, but there aren't people sitting around looking for reasons to DQ your or ding you on something that doesn't really matter. The *only* place these discussions happen is on-line, where it is made to seem like there are a bunch of people staring at you trying to catch you on minor infractions. It just doesn't work that way, unless you are completely clueless or trying to get a leg up on your competitors using technicalities, it doesn't happen.

     Brett

p.s. I would also add, even when it might be legal, it is generally frowed upon to use rules tactically - like the "dead battery trick", that is, taking an attempt using a "dead battery", to try to delay the flight to get better air. Legal, no one is able to tell if it was a genuine failure to start or a tactical attempt, but people *will* notice and do it too often and you *will* get a bad reputation. Or any other tactic, for that matter.

   Apropos of this thread, there are a (mercifully) few people sitting on the sidelines studying the rules like they were the Da Vinci code,  thinking up various tricks to pull to try to make it hard for people - Peabody being one of the most egregious.  You can see the result, Peabody is held in utter contempt by almost everyone who has been around long enough to have heard of him. He isn't ashamed of it, he used to hand out business cards proclaiming himself the "Antichrist of Stunt".  People like him get shuffled to the side pretty quick, because reputation is *almost the sole valuable thing you get from stunt*.

    Point being, these silly tactical stunts almost always backfire in one way or another - it might work the day you do it, but in the long term it works against you because you get identified as someone who *doesn't get it*.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2021, 01:30:17 PM by Brett Buck »


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