2023 Nats Day One Qual Scores

[John Paris]

Everyone,
Attached are the qualification scores from Day one.  Early rounds were the best for weather with a fair number of passes in the increasing winds of the day.  Day Two is tomorrow, so we will see what comes.
John

[Craig Beswick]

Would someone tell me how qualifying works please?
Is it the total of all 4 flights? Average of besrc2 flights?

TIA
Craig

[frank williams]

Your best score from the first day of qualifying is added to your best score from the second day of qualifying.  That number ranks you in your group.  The top five from each of the four groups compromise the "top twenty".  (you are really only competing against the members of your group for the first two days of qualifying)  The top twenty fly on the third day.  Two flights are summed to determine the top five.  The top five fly three flights on the next day of qualifying.  The best two scores are added to determine first thru fifth place.

[Brett Buck]

Would someone tell me how qualifying works please?
Is it the total of all 4 flights? Average of besrc2 flights?

TIA
Craig

As Frank notes, it's really 4 separate contests. You fly two flights on Tuesday, take the best, fly two flights on Wednesday, take the best, add the best Tuesday score and the best Wednesday score, take the top 5 finishers for each group, then fly them all off against each other one Thursday.

   The groups move to different circles from Tuesday to Wednesday, so they see two sets of judges, which evens out the differences in judge preference.

    That's why you see a large number of blank scores for the second round - they had already posted a score for the first round, and most people were either satisfied with it, or thought they couldn't improve in the slightly worse conditions of the second round.

     I note that even with a pretty good turnout, we finished today at about 1:00 PM, which is pretty normal. So the judges were not abused nor were there unreasonable expectations of consistency.

    On Top 20 day, each remaining pilot flies for each of two judge groups, and both flights count. The point of the qualification rounds it to winnow the field down to a reasonable number, so that Top 20 day, again, *doesn't abuse the judges*. Top 20 day is usually done in 3 hours or so. The best combined scores are used to select the Top 5 for a flyoff on Friday morning, best 2 out of 3 scores.

     This system was devised by none other than Wild Bill Netzeband, and is an absolutely brilliant use of resources to achieve the most accurate possible result. It works very well with 4 groups up to about 100 total entrants. More than 100, and the round lengths get unreasonable, and if that happened on a recurring basis we would have to consider using 5 groups instead of 4.

     Brett
     

[Tim Wescott]

I take it from the number of people who declined to fly the second round, and where they did, the number of second-round scores that were worse, that it was windy and it picked up later in the day?

[Air Ministry .]

Ere's some pitchers . https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=668355625335804&set=pcb.668356042002429

[john e. holliday]

What's to keep the judges from looking at the scores?

[Brett Buck]

I take it from the number of people who declined to fly the second round, and where they did, the number of second-round scores that were worse, that it was windy and it picked up later in the day?

It was somewhat worse by the second round, particularly compared to the pretty benign conditions at the beginning for the Advanced fliers. I would judge the first hour or so as nearly Stunt Hero air, by which, anyone can feel like a hero in those conditions.  By the end of the first round, it was moderately challenging, and maybe got a little worse by the time the second round started.

 This is a very typical pattern for Muncie in early-mid July, it's usually nice, bordering on dead, at 8 AM, and the wind picks up steadily until about 1:00 pm, then stays consistent until maybe 7:00PM, at which point it starts to taper off. The last hour or so before sundown is Golden Hour, usually that is almost magically perfect. It's a good time to go out an build your confidence.

   Of course, storms alter it, and if there is a big cold front/storm come through, watch out the next day, because you are in for a challenge.

      Brett
   
   

[Brett Buck]

What's to keep the judges from looking at the scores?

  Their personal integrity.

    Brett

[Claudio Chacon]

It was somewhat worse by the second round, particularly compared to the pretty benign conditions at the beginning for the Advanced fliers. I would judge the first hour or so as nearly Stunt Hero air, by which, anyone can feel like a hero in those conditions.  By the end of the first round, it was moderately challenging, and maybe got a little worse by the time the second round started.

 This is a very typical pattern for Muncie in early-mid July, it's usually nice, bordering on dead, at 8 AM, and the wind picks up steadily until about 1:00 pm, then stays consistent until maybe 7:00PM, at which point it starts to taper off. The last hour or so before sundown is Golden Hour, usually that is almost magically perfect. It's a good time to go out an build your confidence.

   Of course, storms alter it, and if there is a big cold front/storm come through, watch out the next day, because you are in for a challenge.

      Brett
   
 

Hi Brett,
I've just seen in other post Steven Daly flying and (sadly) crashing his plane...
Do you know, more or less, what was the wind speed during that flight?

Thanks,
Claudio.

[John Lindberg]

Great work, John Paris! 

[Dan McEntee]

Hi Brett,
I've just seen in other post Steven Daly flying and (sadly) crashing his plane...
Do you know, more or less, what was the wind speed during that flight?

Thanks,
Claudio.

     Good Morning Claudio;
      That video was from two years ago, 2020, and according to the notes with the video wind was 20 mph with gusts over that. The surrounding terrain can make a lot of turbulence at ground levels also. A nice, straight line wind is one thing, but a bubbling caldron of junk that comes across surface elevation changes, buildings, trees or sudden rises is just pure terror! I'm not familiar with what circle he was on of what the relation to the terrain the wind was that day, but he was doing a pretty good job for the most part. That's the kind of stuff where i am usually glued to my chair!!
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[Claudio Chacon]

     Good Morning Claudio;
      That video was from two years ago, 2020, and according to the notes with the video wind was 20 mph with gusts over that. The surrounding terrain can make a lot of turbulence at ground levels also. A nice, straight line wind is one thing, but a bubbling caldron of junk that comes across surface elevation changes, buildings, trees or sudden rises is just pure terror! I'm not familiar with what circle he was on of what the relation to the terrain the wind was that day, but he was doing a pretty good job for the most part. That's the kind of stuff where i am usually glued to my chair!!
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

Hello Dan!
I thought that it was a current video from this year's Nats.
In any case, a 20 mph wind is the absolute limit to suspend a World Championship under FAI rules, blowing steadily during 30 seconds (which is already a NASTY amount of wind...) Add gusts and turbulence on top of that and you're fried! 
But I know you guys have to deal with the *no wind limit rule* under the AMA sporting code...a pretty scary scenario, to say the least! 

Hope everyone can bring back home the planes in one piece this time!
Best regards,
Claudio.

[Brett Buck]

Hi Brett,
I've just seen in other post Steven Daly flying and (sadly) crashing his plane...
Do you know, more or less, what was the wind speed during that flight?

Thanks,
Claudio.

  I was unaware of that, I was going to comment on getting through it intact for once. What round was that?

     Brett

[Claudio Chacon]

  I was unaware of that, I was going to comment on getting through it intact for once. What round was that?

     Brett

Nono...that video was taken in 2020 Nats (I didn't know that).
Please read my previous post.

Later,
Claudio.

[Brett Buck]

Nono...that video was taken in 2020 Nats (I didn't know that).
Please read my previous post.

  OK, now I know what you are talking about, but I think this was 2021.
 
   It was maybe 20-25 sustained. I note, without picking on Steven, was that he would have made it had he done the maneuver in the normal place, or behind his head, rather than in front of him. The Open competitors were just off-camera to the left and behind and made it.

    This is pushing the limits, and in this case it may have been suspended, except that we had to finish that day due to predicted bad weather for the next two days. Our unofficial limt is 20 sustained and we have flown in more than that at times, the worst I recall being either this day, or Top 20 day in 2003, where there was 29 sustained with gusts up to 35 about halfway through the second round. That day, only 7 people completed both flights successfully, 5 Open and 2 Advanced. I crashed on my second flight and finished 10th.

       Brett

[Air Ministry .]

Sorry if I caused any confusion with that . First glance of it fighting its way around the overheads got me hooked . Pity it planted itself . Thought Full Marks for the Piloting . Anyone can get caught out with rotors & rolling bubbles etc .
You CAN get smooth air even when its blowing hard ,  but its seldom without tricks to catch you out .

[Claudio Chacon]

  OK, now I know what you are talking about, but I think this was 2021.
 
   It was maybe 20-25 sustained. I note, without picking on Steven, was that he would have made it had he done the maneuver in the normal place, or behind his head, rather than in front of him. The Open competitors were just off-camera to the left and behind and made it.

    This is pushing the limits, and in this case it may have been suspended, except that we had to finish that day due to predicted bad weather for the next two days. Our unofficial limt is 20 sustained and we have flown in more than that at times, the worst I recall being either this day, or Top 20 day in 2003, where there was 29 sustained with gusts up to 35 about halfway through the second round. That day, only 7 people completed both flights successfully, 5 Open and 2 Advanced. I crashed on my second flight and finished 10th.

       Brett

I see...20/25 sustained...that's WAY too much in my book...

And...let me see if i get this straight: 29 sustained with 35 mph gusts in 2003?! ¿¡WHAT?!  Brett...I wonder if flying in those conditions does make any sense...
But, on the other hand, I admire the people who DARE to fly...

Later,
Claudio.

[GerryG]

How about a big hello and get well to Chris Cox who had a heart problem. I thought that this was supposed to be a relaxing hobby.

[Brett Buck]

I see...20/25 sustained...that's WAY too much in my book...

    That is doable with modern equipment, to the point that not only do you have to make it through, you need to fly reasonable sizes and keep reasonable shapes. It possible even with older equipment and sufficient skill.

   The problem is developing the skills, because the tendency is to give up. If you don't know what you are doing, even some pretty good pilots will stick it  in the ground. That's the cost of doing business.
 
     My experience was more-or-less getting forced into it by circumstances. In the case below, I told Ted Fancher that I gave myself about 50/50 making it through intact, but it was NATs Top 20 day, I built the airplane to fly at the NATs, so I was going regardless of the consequences.

      At the 2015 NATs, also Top 20 day, it was about 18 sustained, but from a good direction and very smooth. Paul Walker I and I were talking and we figured it was a great opportunity, in Paul's words, "scoring weather". I kind of look forward to this sort of thing, because anybody can do a respectable job in perfect air.

   

And...let me see if i get this straight: 29 sustained with 35 mph gusts in 2003?! ¿¡WHAT?!  Brett...I wonder if flying in those conditions does make any sense...

     I stopped trying to limit myself to things that made sense when I started flying stunt.

     But, this was another Top 20 day, half the field withdrew from the start. But I note that 5 people in Open and 2 in Advanced made it through complete flights, some of them *after* Gieseke and I both crapped out, in the worst of the worst.

      Brett

[Claudio Chacon]

 

   

     I stopped trying to limit myself to things that made sense when I started flying stunt.

     But, this was another Top 20 day, half the field withdrew from the start. But I note that 5 people in Open and 2 in Advanced made it through complete flights, some of them *after* Gieseke and I both crapped out, in the worst of the worst.

      Brett
[/quote]

I understand...
After all, a Top 20 day is just THAT, and this is not a sport for faint hearted people...
Having said that...with that kind of wind, FIND ME AT THE HOTEL UNDER THE BED! 

Best regards,
Claudio.

[Brett Buck]

I understand...
After all, a Top 20 day is just THAT, and this is not a sport for faint hearted people...
Having said that...with that kind of wind, FIND ME AT THE HOTEL UNDER THE BED! 

   I am sure you can do it, it is a matter of technique, and, a matter of not psyching yourself out. 25+ is next-level stuff, but under that, you just have to understand what effect it will have and how you can overcome or use it.
 
    You gain confidence for flying in the wind by flying in the wind.

  Brett