All maneuvers are getting better but the square eight is getting worse

[Matt Piatkowski]

Any suggestions what to do?
Thanks,
M

[Keith Renecle]

Hi Matt,
If the squares either way are working well for you then a good way to improve the square eight is the make it bigger.......both horizontally and vertically. This will give you a little more time in between corners. It's usually the bottom corners that are "panic-turned", but overall if you stretch the maneuver, then it will give you just that extra time to get it better. The other thing that happens is that this makes sure that the speed comes up a bit. Many times, especially with "not-so-experienced" pilots, the model gets stalled as the hard corners are bashed and if the maneuver is too tight, then the model does not get the chance to get the air flowing over the surfaces too well, resulting in a maneuver that wobbles all over the place.

Keith R

[Brett Buck]

Any suggestions what to do?

      Given NO information, the usual cause is running out of speed as the maneuver goes along. Of course that's just a general answer, since you don't say anything about what is "worse" about it.

     Potential solutions include: more nitro, less pitch, more gentle corners, correcting errors in the shapes (like trying to make it too narrow as it slows down, etc.
       
      Brett 

[Matt Piatkowski]

Hi Keith,
Hi Brett,

I am flying indoors electric with markers : there are three horizontal markers: imaginary down the wind = 0.0 degrees, and (+) (-) 45 degrees w/r to the imaginary wind direction. These markers are attached to the curtain dividing in half the gym I am using. The markers are 1.50 m. above the floor and the top of the curtain is at ~45 deg. elevation w/r to the floor.

I am trying to use these markers and the top of the curtain for corners but my general feeling is that everything is happening too fast.
The inside squares are much better than the outside squares but both are erratic.

If I ignore the markers and make the squares larger, the quality is more or less ok. Lap time is 4.9 sec.

I realized after nine flights today that my input range is getting restricted by strange tension in my wrist and forearm. It felt like I was fighting myself to properly complete the moves. I know this from skiing: when I was learning to smoothly complete the turn and was trying too hard, everything was jerky and unnatural. Only when I relaxed and allowed the skis to take time to carve the turn, everything became more fluid and natural.

It must be something like that.

At this moment, I am at loss what to do but will keep trying.

I cannot exclude this sad possibility that my aging brain resists my attempts.
Only time will show.
 
Regards,
M


 

 

[Tim Wescott]

Practice squares until they are perfect.  Do flights where you just do two inside squares, two laps, two outside squares, etc.  You'll find that your square eights get "magically" better (because a square eight is just an inside square mashed up with an outside square, after all).

[Dan McEntee]

 If you are looking for the markers while you are in the maneuver, that may be messing you up. I have tried the maker training aids and I usually let some one else judge me according to the markers. If you wait until you see a marker, then turn, it's in too much of a panic. I try to look for marker out of my peripheral vision and anticipate the turns. I don't think you want to 'time" the turns.. Before the flight, study the marker locations and visualize the size and shape of the maneuver and get that in your mind in reference to the back ground you are looking at, then fly the flight.  Flying a good pattern is a matter of seeing "the big picture", in my opinion. When I am flying my personal best, I see the whole maneuver  in the sky just as I get to where I need to fly it, then just trace it out. When I can't get my head in the game to do that, I'm all over the place. I compare it to a base ball player who is hitting well, and they almost always will say that they are "seeing the ball well." You can't hit it if you can't see it and focus on it. The good hitters will say that they can see the stitches on the ball when things are right. I think it's similar with flying stunt, and it's a combination of how you are seeing the plane, maneuver, and what you feel at the handle. The model has to be up to the task, of course.
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[Ted Fancher]

Matt,

One generic thing to look for...

Oftentimes I see badly flown squares which are the result of not getting vertical in the "down" legs and then having to make an emergency pull out approaching the ground resulting in the whole maneuver falling apart as a result.   

Diving corners generally require greater pilot input than corners initiated from normal level flight for a variety of reasons (less tension at 45+ degrees; going from slight "up" input to maintain the top track, to enough down to get really vertical; slight but real reduced airspeed and thus response rate, etc.)  This tendency occurs in all downhill pattern corners initiated from the 45 degree elevation.  The failure to get vertical results in the need for more than 90 degree pullouts while accelerating downhill...both of which tend to demand an "emergency" response from the pilot; the result of which generally exacerbates the problem/errors.

Check your entries to the outside squares, by the way, to insure you are getting truly vertical there.  Getting lazy and routinely allowing less than a vertical path there will allow your mind to accept it as proper and forestall corrective actions.  In critique/training session I will often suggest to the pilot that he/she enter the outside squares with a very positive input largely generated by pulling the little finger positively into what should have been a comparatively relaxed grip to provide the extra input necessary to overcome the obstacles to getting vertical (note that tension in the mating between the handle and the pilot is a recipe for mediocre patterns!  tight grips and tensed muscles make nuanced inputs--necessary for barely visible corrections--pretty much impossible.  Do not increase the input by yanking the arm and handle downward.  Such gross inputs take too much time and break the symbiotic relationship of the pilot to the ship's response).  In most cases it's the nuanced inputs that separate winners from those applauding them at the end of the contest!

Enough.

Ted

[RandySmith]

Any suggestions what to do?
Thanks,
M

YES open it up, smooth it out, fly large and soft  to start with , then slowly work on getting it the right size with good corners, paying special attention to  keep  you intersection  directly in front of you, and in the  exact  same place

Randy

[Tim Wescott]

YES open it up, smooth it out, fly large and soft  to start with , then slowly work on getting it the right size with good corners, paying special attention to  keep  you intersection  directly in front of you, and in the  exact  same place

Randy

That's good advice!  I'd add that you try to keep your straight lines straight, with distinct transitions to the corners.  Not only will this make a big, open, soft-cornered maneuver look more "rule book", it'll also make the whole thing look better once you do get the corners tighter.

[Mike Ferguson]

FWIW, I found that my squares (insides, outsides, eights) started looking much better when I stopped focusing so much on the corners. Instead of "corner, corner, corner, corner", I worked on them as "flat, flat, flat, flat", with the corner just being the transition between them. I stopped over-controlling the corners, which made the flat legs better.

[Air Ministry .]

We chucked a few markers out at 45 degrees & 90 degrees on the Circumferance .
It gets you snappy or OFF .

Better to have clean oversize 8s than eraticic missshappen ones , if the planes to heavy or lines to short . 

[Matt Piatkowski]

Thank you all for your thoughts.
Regards,
Matt