All american

[Randy.Birt]

Greetings all, has anyone flown an all American, They look to have a long nose and a short tail. Are they hard to get them to balance? Could one competitively do the old time stunt pattern?

Thanks for any help yall can give.

Randy Birt

[Dennis Toth]

Randy,
The All American is a competitive ship in OTS. It likes to fly fast, use slow control setups. Because of the large inboard wing offset you need to step back as it rolls for take-off to keep it smooth. Make sure you have a tip weight box and start with the amount of tip weight stated on the plans and adjust (likely a little less) from there. An OS 20 FP or 25 with Bretts 9x4 prop set-up (high rpm/low pitch) will pull it just fine. If you use an older design engine make sure you have enough oil in the fuel and set it to a clean 2 cycle to get lap time (you want around a 4.6 sec lap on 60'). In flight it will fly a little inboard wing high and flop from inside to outside but that's what the designer wanted to keep line tension. Keep it light and it will be a good ship.

Best,   DennisT

[BillP]

I flew one a couple yrs built from a Lone Start Models kit on 60' x 018 lines. It balanced perfectly with an unmuffed Fox 35 and smith uniflo tank. It was fast, turned tight and will do the OTS pattern no problem. The only quirk was the long offset wing tended to come into the circle briefly on takeoff until up to speed...you had to be more sensitive to wind direction for takeoff. Once flying it didn't make a difference. Whether it's competitive someone else will have to respond. 

[Dennis Adamisin]

First contest with my All American I got a 2nd in OTS and a 1st in Classic.  I think its a terrific flyer - the LOOOOONG inboard wing takes a little getting used to though, it hinges on every manuver which doesn't really hurt anything, just looks a little funky compared to a modern airplane.

Just a hunch, the new Spectra lines are nearly weightless and it might take some of the excitement out of take-offs.  I also built mine with electric and use a pusher prop so take-offs are boring.

[Randy.Birt]

Thanks all. I am purchasing a Golden State models kit that looks fun to have a go at. I dont fly the OTS pattern, but i am looking for a good ship to do so. I have a vampire, but I cant seem to get it to turn corners fast enough for my liking. 

Thanks again.

V/R

Randy

[Ken Culbertson]

Just a hunch, the new Spectra lines are nearly weightless and it might take some of the excitement out of take-offs.  I also built mine with electric and use a pusher prop so take-offs are boring.

Heresy, I say heresy.  To fully appreciate the All American you have to experience the original takeoff!

Ken

[Dan McEntee]

Thanks all. I am purchasing a Golden State models kit that looks fun to have a go at. I dont fly the OTS pattern, but i am looking for a good ship to do so. I have a vampire, but I cant seem to get it to turn corners fast enough for my liking. 

Thanks again.

V/R

Randy

   In the Old Tyme Stunt pattern there are only two tricks with square corners, in the wing over, a the square loop. OTS is fun and good practice for flying round maneuvers. Your Vampire may just be a bit nose heavy and worth the effort to check the balance a bit. Check control throw also  Of all the designs out there that have been published and kitted for flying aerobatics of any kind, they are all pretty much capable of flying a good pattern. Some  maybe a bit better than others. The rest is up to the nut on the handle!! Like anything else in this hobby, it just takes some practice and attention to the small details. I have a couple of All American Seniors and you need to specify which one you have. There is a small one for 1/2A or A engines I think, The "All American" which is the middle size, and the All American Senior which is the one most often seen. Power with a Fox.35 is most certainly acceptable. Some kits don't have very long landing gear and a 9 inch prop works best, even on a Fox.35 I have one that I got from Allen Brickhaus' estate and it does quite well with a 9-6.
   Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee

[Chris McMillin]

Vampire? Did somebody say Vampire?
Chris...

[BillP]

Thanks all. I am purchasing a Golden State models kit that looks fun to have a go at. I dont fly the OTS pattern, but i am looking for a good ship to do so. I have a vampire, but I cant seem to get it to turn corners fast enough for my liking. 

Thanks again.

V/R

Randy

Hey Randy, you jogged my senior moment memory...my AAsr was actually bullt from a Golden State Models kit. I have no idea why I posted Lone Star but geeze, getting old sucks sometimes.

[john e. holliday]

Dan, you forgot the climb and dive.  I have the All American Sr that I built from Riley's kit.   Take offs are like a racing plane except longer climb to altitude and the landing is basically the same for wheeled landings.  Fox 35 Stunt for power on 60 X .015 cable hard point handle.  Also 9X6 prop MAS.composite.

[De Hill]

There is an All American Senior, and an All American.

The All American is smaller than the Senior.

[Brett Buck]

Heresy, I say heresy.  To fully appreciate the All American you have to experience the original takeoff!

Ken

   And in any case, spinning it backwards only makes it better, but doesn't cure it. One potential cure is to put in a ton of engine offset (to get the thrust line closer to the CG). A workaround that I was told by one of the really old timers (late 40's) was to have the holder hold it by the stab, and hold the airplane level at release. That seems to work by eliminating the need to rotate in negative pitch, so you don't get any precession that yaws it even more.

  Once you get it in the air, Dennis' description is quite accurate, it looks terrible from the pilot perspective but has no significant negative effects aside from the climb/dive/square loop. The latter you can fudge most of the time, the climb and dive is actually a pretty difficult maneuver even with really good airplanes.

     I also note that if you just want a good-flying airplane and don't care about flying it in OTS, then just remove the extra inboard rib bay and make it equal-span. That cures all the issues and the airplane flies very well. It will also get you DQed in OTS competition (with one famous example...).

  Note that this airplane was from the wild cut-and-try era, you can sort of see what they were thinking, but to figure out what *does* work, you have to try a bunch of things that *don't work* first. This is a prime example of the latter.

          Brett

[BillP]

Golden State kitted the AASr.

[De Hill]

The landing gear is 1 inch too short to make a smooth takeoff if you are using a 10/6 prop.
(Especially on grass)

[Ken Culbertson]

I think a lot of that short gear came from so much flying over grass with hand launching.  The wheels were off of mine more than they were on.  9" props were quite common on the .29-35's of the late 50's and 60's.  I can't remember for sure what engine I had on it.  It was either a McCoy 29 or a Johnson 35. 

Ken

[Dennis Adamisin]

Heresy, I say heresy.  To fully appreciate the All American you have to experience the original takeoff!

Ken

+1 for the "AA Sr Experience"!  Sometimes I wonder about putting a normal prop on it just to see what happens, but I quickly come to my senses.  My sense of adventure ain't what it used to be!

[EricV]

My AA Sr was from an Easy Built Models kit... one of my first builds coming back to C/L after my first 15yr hiatus when I got married. Fun little planes and fly better than they should.

Eddy R has prolly built more AA Sr than anyone I ever heard of... and won with them... a lot.  All Eddy's had a pretty good amount of paint missing from the underside of the outboard wingtip. He never had any trouble with them coming in on him on take off. (hint hint) The old joke at the time was to say to take the empty metal Ambroid tube when done building it and roll it up and glue it into the tip as your tipweight. Despite the intended design philosophy, the tip weight solved more issues than it caused, at least for the OTS pattern.

I followed similar trim advice, (Ok, I used a weight box) mine never came in at me either. I didn't rack up much hardware with mine, but it served its purpose and was fun to fly as a break from big PA ships and to just do something different. I think I flew mine on 56ft 15 lines, typical Fox at a good clip, prolly 4.9 laps, but it didn't feel fast, it was a pretty mono speed run for a fox, but I was running something like a 9x6 prop, which prolly pitched out to 9x5.5 or less in reality. I was even known to run an 8x8 on occasion with some go juice to kick up the vitamin N when I got bored. (yup, I've had a few fox cranks let go) Not going to do any pretty patterns that way but it got the blood pumping and was fun! The trick is to keep it light... just like the successful Ringmasters you see out there.

EricV