Author Topic: All American sr. (Read 4924 times)

Andy Whitam · « **on:** April 01, 2011, 05:15:21 AM »

can the All American Sr. be built with the fuslage centered up on the wing and fly correctly? Has anyone ever done this.

dennis lipsett · « **Reply #1 on:** April 01, 2011, 06:12:11 AM »

Quote from: Andy Whitam on April 01, 2011, 05:15:21 AM

can the All American Sr. be built with the fuslage centered up on the wing and fly correctly? Has anyone ever done this.

The answer is yes you can. The other side of the coin is that you cannot enter that model in old time stunt as it will not be legal. However if your not competition bound you will have a nice flying model without the 'quirks' that are the designs somewhat unique features. Features that if left in allow you to demonstrate your mastery of taking off and landing the model while being in complete control of it.

Dennis

Brett Buck · « **Reply #2 on:** April 01, 2011, 06:31:12 PM »

Quote from: dennis lipsett on April 01, 2011, 06:12:11 AM

The answer is yes you can. The other side of the coin is that you cannot enter that model in old time stunt as it will not be legal. However if your not competition bound you will have a nice flying model without the 'quirks' that are the designs somewhat unique features. Features that if left in allow you to demonstrate your mastery of taking off and landing the model while being in complete control of it.

I think, if you build it stock, you want to put in about 5-8 degrees of right thrust, to get the thrust line through the CG. I would also offset the landing gear to the inboard side. Then, I think it will work pretty much normally without getting out the saw, and still be legal.

Brett

Dennis Adamisin · « **Reply #3 on:** April 01, 2011, 07:33:34 PM »

...or build it with electric power and a LH rotation prop..!

Jim Kraft · « **Reply #4 on:** April 01, 2011, 07:56:29 PM »

Electric in an All American Sr? Sacrilege I say. Perish the thought. Oh the pain.

Brett Buck · « **Reply #5 on:** April 01, 2011, 08:03:05 PM »

Quote from: Dennis Adamisin on April 01, 2011, 07:33:34 PM

...or build it with electric power and a LH rotation prop..!

That's not going to get rid of the yaw torque. I think that is 99% of the problem, ground and air. It will help slightly with the "tipping over to the left" problem right at the beginning of the ground roll.

Brett

peabody · « **Reply #6 on:** April 01, 2011, 08:06:33 PM »

I built one years ago and thought it was fine........ignorance is bliss, I guess...

There was a guy around here that flew one in Expert regularly....OS 35 FP power....did okay with it...

john e. holliday · « **Reply #7 on:** April 02, 2011, 08:59:32 AM »

Build it like it is supposed to be built. You have to lead it quite a bit on take off. I have made wheeled landings with mine several times on pavement. Treat it like an F2C racing plane and have fun. Yes if you stand there and watch it take off it will chase you. Needs a little arm for take off. I think it is a great plane once airborne.

GEOFFREY · « **Reply #8 on:** April 02, 2011, 11:02:06 AM »

WHY bother after a couple times it chases you , you forget how nice it looks and flys.. with so many happy planes out there i never will unhook mine from the ceiling hanger. at my age i sometimes forget to wear my running shoes when i go to the Field. had two sets of lines donated to my fox 35....

Jim Thomerson · « **Reply #9 on:** April 02, 2011, 01:39:03 PM »

I have a photo of an "All Canadian" flown at the 1999 VSC. The flier had documentation that equal wing "All Americans" were built and flown in Canada during the OTS period. All you have to do is paint the wings as Canadian flags, complete with maple leaf.

jim ivey · « **Reply #10 on:** April 02, 2011, 02:25:16 PM »

theres a KnB slant plug teardrop that would be perfectly correct for that plane. a cantankerous finger busting engine for a crappy flying airplane! perfect for an early fifties combo. Just my opinion on the plane the engine is fact!! jim

Jim Pollock · « **Reply #11 on:** April 02, 2011, 06:37:16 PM »

Ty,

Did I give you that one when I went to Virginia?

Jim Pollock

Bill Little · « **Reply #12 on:** April 03, 2011, 12:10:42 AM »

I have put a reverse rotation crankshaft in my Fox .35 in my AA Sr., but haven't had a chance to break in in yet. I need to run it some to get the crankshaft seated. It "might" do some good.

Aaron refuses to ever fly it again! LOL!! I told him that you need to turned 90* to the left of the plane and start running as soon as you signal launch. He didn't believe me! LOL!! Knocked the LG loose, but everything else was fine. Even when I do the above drill, it takes about a 1/4 lap before I am actually "flying it". Guess it is pretty straight or else I would not still have it, I have yet to take off with any real control.

I really do like flying it once it is off the ground. And I fly it on 60' eye to eye lines at about a 4.9 to 5 sec. lap time. Just got to see what changes, if any, the reverse crank makes.

I do remember Tommy Luper having a LOT of success with one around the early '90s and he flew it pretty slow. And he would almost have to kneel down when it went over the top in a wingover. IIRC, he ended up having to add wing tip weight to the "inside" wing.........

Big Bear

jim ivey · « **Reply #13 on:** April 03, 2011, 08:51:31 AM »

please excuse my earlier post. It was actually a pretty popular airplane. Every contest usually had a couple. I had one bet bill did too. I think the engine wanted to go to china and take the airplane with it!!

ji

Brett Buck · « **Reply #14 on:** April 03, 2011, 11:14:50 AM »

Quote from: Bill Little on April 03, 2011, 12:10:42 AM

I have put a reverse rotation crankshaft in my Fox .35 in my AA Sr., but haven't had a chance to break in in yet. I need to run it some to get the crankshaft seated. It "might" do some good.

I don't think that will solve it, or is at best a band-aid. Crank in a bunch of side thrust - that will address the real issue, as least on the ground.

Brett

Jim Kraft · « **Reply #15 on:** April 03, 2011, 01:21:32 PM »

Thanks for that Brett; I have been wanting to build one of these for a long time, but the horror stories stopped me. Now I think I will build one and do the 6 or 8 deg. right thrust thing, and see how it goes. That sure should eliminate the chase seen. I kind of loose my composer when the plane is coming at me, and I don't know which way to run.

Brett Buck · « **Reply #16 on:** April 03, 2011, 01:43:19 PM »

Quote from: Jim Kraft on April 03, 2011, 01:21:32 PM

Thanks for that Brett; I have been wanting to build one of these for a long time, but the horror stories stopped me. Now I think I will build one and do the 6 or 8 deg. right thrust thing, and see how it goes. That sure should eliminate the chase seen. I kind of loose my composer when the plane is coming at me, and I don't know which way to run.

   If you want to be more precise, the idea is to aim the engine at the CG, so I would build it, then weigh it with the engine tacked in place, then see were the lateral CG ended up. Then offset the engine so the thrust line went through or inboard of the CG. That will definitively solve the problem where it yaws in at you. It won't fix the "way too much tipweight" problem (i.e. the entire fuselage and engine) but you don't expect it to be an Impact.

   The only other thing we found that was important was making the controls *very slow*. I think the one I built (then sold, borrowed back, and trimmed for a while) we ended up with about +-3/8" of travel at the TE of the elevator. Don't block it to limit the movement, just make the elevator horn very long to slow it down. Same reason and reasoning as the Ringmaster, although not nearly as severe since the aerodynamics are far superior.

   Brett

p.s. If I was going to build another one, I would also "accidentally" slide the stab/elevator over the the left (inboard) side as far as I thought I could get away with it. That will help the "too much tipweight" problem a little.

Jim Kraft · « **Reply #17 on:** April 03, 2011, 02:11:42 PM »

Thanks again Brett. Sounds like a plan. I'm going to give it a shot.

donald raab · « **Reply #18 on:** April 04, 2011, 12:44:21 AM »

Been flying an All American senior since 94. The only change I made was to rake the control lines a few degrees. Flies fine on a Johnson stunt and pressure. Have a tongue muffler as well.

jim ivey · « **Reply #19 on:** April 05, 2011, 01:40:49 PM »

I cant remember. which came first all american sr or stuntwagon jim

EddyR · « **Reply #20 on:** April 05, 2011, 04:17:33 PM »

I agree with Donald. I sweep the front leadout back until it is 1" in front of the back leadout. Take off is no problem. Also the plans say no outboard tip weight needed. That doesn't mean let the inboard wing weigh any amount that it just happens to come out. I have balanced my models so neither wing drops and they never come in at me. I don't use any offset in the motor. HalDeBolt told to me to balance it down the center of the body. Also the short nose version flys better. I balance all mine 1" from the leading edge and use 20 degrees elevator movement.
Ed

dennis lipsett · « **Reply #21 on:** April 05, 2011, 05:53:12 PM »

Quote from: jim ivey on April 05, 2011, 01:40:49 PM

I cant remember. which came first all american sr or stuntwagon jim

The stuntwagon came first.
Dennis

Mike Keville · « **Reply #22 on:** April 05, 2011, 06:44:30 PM »

Quote from: dennis lipsett on April 05, 2011, 05:53:12 PM

The stuntwagon came first.
Dennis

================================================================

By a wide margin --- 1948 or so, if memory serves, versus '51 or '52 for the AA Sr..

As for the AA Senior, six years ago I was privileged to obtain temporary possession of Mike Ostella's well-travelled version. Takeoffs were no problem as long as I "led" it a bit and fed in a tad of Down elevator which allowed it to get up to speed. Once in the air, it was an absolute delight -- performing the OTS pattern quite well, with full line tension at all times.

Then came the, uh, er, "landings" (so to speak). The best way to describe those would be "a kangaroo on crack".

Some time later, Mike phoned me, along with his friend Doug Benedetti -- an acknowledged master at landing the AA Sr. Doug recommended coming in "hot", touching down on the mains while holding a bit of Down 'til the speed bled off.

Well, okay...works for him. But not for me. Never could land that thing well.

I'll probably have to build my own one of these days, because in the air it's a sweet flying machine.

...and in case anyone's forgotten, Ted Fancher won OTS at VSC-1 with an AA Senior. Flew (and landed) like it was on rails. But then, I ain't no Ted, that's for sho'!!!

jim ivey · « **Reply #23 on:** April 05, 2011, 10:10:47 PM »

there was one more JC's "Madman". lew simpson won 1st senior stunt in 1950 with one. lew was the kid that hitchiked to the nats in sunnyvale with his airplane. He was on the cover of M.A.N. his was a 60 size powered by an orwick 64. I flew it once , my veco ghief flew better. In fact its the only plane I liked as well as bobs T'Bird. Billy if your readin this I never built that aries stuka got in th way. jim