Author Topic: Alas, I need a new Chizler (Read 10270 times)

Ted Fancher · « **on:** October 19, 2011, 06:03:11 PM »

So, I thought I'd strip my old Chizler down, recover and refinish it (the covering was splitting all over and the finish always sucked) and maybe drop in a VF .25 mit pipe just to make Uncle Mikey Keville cringe at VSC next year. Alas, my attempts to strip the old HobbyPoxy yellow was a disaster. I got some stripper made for polyurethanes and epoxies and tried several coats on the fuse and tail. For some reason it worked fairly well on the tail (covered with carbon veil applied with plain old dope...the stripper didn't touch the dope!) but the fuse is just a disaster. It took it off in a handfull of places (left the Brodak fillercoat in place...weird again) but for the most part it didn't touch it. Can't think of any other method of getting it off, so I've given up.

Instead, I just ordered an RSM Chizler kit because I've always loved the way the old airplane flew although the Big Art Max .35S was sometimes a bit challenged in Arizona heat and altitude. In an attempt to solve that issue I rummaged through the cabinets in the garage and came up with a handful of ST .46s that feel awesome after freeing up the old oil they hey been stored with (the last time any of them would have been run was the late '80s. Used one in the airplane that won the '86 Nats and shortly thereafter switched over to pipes and never looked back...til now.)

One's pretty much stock, the second has a Vic Garner twin ring mod and the last one (the one I'll probably use) has the plasma piston and liner that a fellow down under made a batch of (sorry, so long ago I've forgotten the name but P.J. will remember). That engine feels absolutely incredible. The seal is so good that it is almost impossible to get the piston to stop at the top of the stroke. The only time I ever tried hard enough to get it to stop up there I left it for a week or more and when I touched the prop it popped over just like you had flipped it. Awesome. I don't recall ever running it either, this was straight out of the "factory" with some air tool oil in it. It should be very reliable.

At any rate, it's going to be fun getting back into the ST .46 game just for giggles and should make for a very macho Chizler. Hope I can crank up the enthusiasm enough to get the thing ready for VSC next March....Schedule it late, guys!

Just a status report. Anyone built one of Eric's Chizler kits? I made the Ruffy from one and it was terrific. Got my fingers crossed the Chizler will be just as good.

Ted

Oh. one terrific p.s. from my cabinet rummaging. I also found another .46 I'm unlikely ever to run that I'd all but forgotten. It's a GMA ABC conversion by George himself. Has his signature etched into the edge of one engine mount and my name etched on the other and the head is etched with--as I recall--GMA .46. Beautiful brass liner with chrome plating and a beautfully sealed aluminum piston. Maybe not quite as good a feel as the plasma fit but not much worse...very tight as befits the classic tapered honing of the liner.

Eat your hearts out guys. This one is a treasure!

Balsa Butcher · « **Reply #1 on:** October 19, 2011, 06:19:07 PM »

Well, I'm not PJ but the bloke down under would be Brian Gardner of "Bristunt" fame. I too have one of his liners in a ST-46 and it is a very smooth, consistent, and powerful engine. Good choice!

Mike Keville · « **Reply #2 on:** October 19, 2011, 06:20:30 PM »

Quote from: Ted Fancher on October 19, 2011, 06:03:11 PM

. . . maybe drop in a VF .25 mit pipe just to make Uncle Mikey Keville cringe at VSC next year . . .
=====================================================================
Nah, no big deal...as long as it isn't Electric <grin>.

. . . Schedule it late, guys! . . .
========================
March 13-17, 2012. Best we can do. Hope you're there!

Russell Shaffer · « **Reply #3 on:** October 19, 2011, 06:25:36 PM »

You need to do one of the nice glass picture frame type of things for the GMA one. Put some silica down in the back side so our great grandkids can run it. Drawers and fingerprints aren't good for these kind of memories.

Brian Hampton · « **Reply #4 on:** October 19, 2011, 07:08:33 PM »

Quote from: Pete Cunha on October 19, 2011, 06:19:07 PM

...the bloke down under would be Brian Gardner of "Bristunt" fame.

It could also have been Tony Cincotta of Saturn Hobbies in Melbourne. Tony was the first to offer replacement plasma liners, starting with the Fox 35 I think, then branched out to other engines as well.

Randy Powell · « **Reply #5 on:** October 19, 2011, 07:28:35 PM »

I look forward to seeing it, Ted. The original one was a killer plane.

Garf · « **Reply #6 on:** October 19, 2011, 07:36:08 PM »

The plasma P&C was definitely Tony Cincotta. I have 2 of his units. One for the ST 46 and one for the Fox 35S. I have a lot of run time on the ST 46 unit. It keeps getting better with running. The Fox unit, I keep crashing. It has been rebuilt and is now in my NoblARF #3.

Balsa Butcher · « **Reply #7 on:** October 19, 2011, 08:52:16 PM »

My bad, the one I have is ABC but not Plasma, should have caught that.

Tim Wescott · « **Reply #8 on:** October 19, 2011, 08:59:55 PM »

Quote from: Ted Fancher on October 19, 2011, 06:03:11 PM

So, I thought I'd strip my old Chizler down, recover and refinish it (the covering was splitting all over and the finish always sucked) and maybe drop in a VF .25 mit pipe just to make Uncle Mikey Keville cringe at VSC next year. Alas, my attempts to strip the old HobbyPoxy yellow was a disaster. I got some stripper made for polyurethanes and epoxies and tried several coats on the fuse and tail. For some reason it worked fairly well on the tail (covered with carbon veil applied with plain old dope...the stripper didn't touch the dope!) but the fuse is just a disaster. It took it off in a handfull of places (left the Brodak fillercoat in place...weird again) but for the most part it didn't touch it. Can't think of any other method of getting it off, so I've given up.

Sand sand sand?

Lacquer thinner on on the Brodak fillercoat (it is dope based, yes?) then peel the epoxy paint the primer as it loosens?

A different brand of stripper?

Is the ST 46 narrow enough that you can finesse it in there after you get the paint off?

Balsa Butcher · « **Reply #9 on:** October 19, 2011, 09:04:02 PM »

Just a thought Ted: If you are able to salvage Chizler #1 both the Brodak .40 and LA-46 are drop in installs for a plane set-up for an OS-35S. Might be worth a try.

Steve Helmick · « **Reply #10 on:** October 19, 2011, 09:08:46 PM »

Ted, just wait for the Lincoln to leave for the hairdressers and set it on the garage floor...

Sorry, just couldn't resist.

Steve

wwwarbird · « **Reply #11 on:** October 19, 2011, 09:23:30 PM »

Ted, try "Dad's Easy Spray" brand paint stripper.

Randy Powell did a post some time ago showing his results with it and it looked like it worked extremely well.

John Paris · « **Reply #12 on:** October 19, 2011, 09:36:17 PM »

Wayne,
Wasn't it Randy Ryan and "Dad's Stripper"? If I recall he was redoing his Gladiator. In any case, you are pointing in the right direction.
John

PJ Rowland · « **Reply #13 on:** October 19, 2011, 10:19:02 PM »

I Thought Tony Cincotta was making the Plasma liners for the ST 46 - He's no longer active as far as Im aware.

I also know Brian Gardner was making some plasma liners also..

ST46 for an engine huh? - You should wait until you read my article in Stunt news called " You have WHAT in that? " I talk about many things, in part the choices behind weight vs power for my classic ship - I dont have the article infront of me, but the ST 46 did factor in my thought process but ultimately was disguarded.

I have to say upfront I love the ST46 very strong.. GREAT sound. For me the only downside was side exhaust.

Wouldnt be my first preferance but I've been beaten by my fair share of ST 46 powered Classic models so I think its a great choice ! - look forward to seeing at VSC ted.

Now.. I hear RSM has a nice Trivial Pursuit kit also........... I can advise you on a new engine to go with THAT also !

You know you want to get back into Stunt.. all that postering about it being fun.. doesnt wash over with me !

wwwarbird · « **Reply #14 on:** October 19, 2011, 10:23:34 PM »

Quote from: John Paris on October 19, 2011, 09:36:17 PM

Wayne,
Wasn't it Randy Ryan and "Dad's Stripper"? If I recall he was redoing his Gladiator. In any case, you are pointing in the right direction.
John

Randy Ryan may use it too, but I think Randy Powell is the one I remember.

Here is one post I found showing Dad's:

http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?topic=23425.0

...still looking for Randy's original post, it had some really good photos that may help Ted here.

...you were right John, here it is:

http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?topic=12018.0

Ted Fancher · « **Reply #15 on:** October 19, 2011, 11:16:40 PM »

Thanks for the input, guys. Good info on that Dad's Stripper (don't tell my kids about her...or Shareen!) stuff and the drop in LA .46. Actually, the straw that broke my back was the fact that I couldn't drop an ST into the old Chizler for exactly that reason...too wide. I'd have to cut on the engines and I don't like doing that. The thing with the .25VF came to me when I tried dropping the ST in and it wouldn't fit. When the paint wouldn't come off AND the engine I really wanted to use wouldn't fit it just caused me to lose interest. The airplane is looking very ugly now...yellow with patches of serious acne and a number of bad rashes all over it. It will probably get deep sixed as I haven't room for "warts" around the house.

I'm pretty sure the piston/liner in my plasma ST was from Brian Gardner. Brian Eather and I assembled a couple of those at his place during a layover down under and the other Brian sounds like the right source. I think I remember that I brought down two Tigers and gave one to Brian E. in exchange for him getting the plasma sets from Brian G...or something like that. Miss visiting with Brian and Val since I retired. Got to get up the gumption to take a trip down there and visit with all my wonderful Aussie friends. We had a rousing good time with Joe, Rosemarie and their two wonderfully precocious kids after the Nats last year. Made me wistful for all those upside down blokes.

Ted

Steve Thomas · « **Reply #16 on:** October 20, 2011, 05:43:17 AM »

Quote from: Ted Fancher on October 19, 2011, 06:03:11 PM

Anyone built one of Eric's Chizler kits? I made the Ruffy from one and it was terrific. Got my fingers crossed the Chizler will be just as good.

G'day Ted, from another upside-down bloke (a less illustrious one). I've built an RSM Chizler kit, and thought it was excellent - can't really think of anything I didn't like about it. Mine came out at about 42 oz (with an Enya SS35S and stock muffler). The looks aren't everyone's cup of tea, but hey, it flies well. There's certainly no shortage of power, so with an ST46 yours ought to be very entertaining indeed.

I've attached a couple of shots. The black spinner has since been replaced by a nice aluminium needlenose one (virtually mandatory with this model!) and when I get around to it I might put some spats on instead of the gear doors, which would look better.

Cheers
Steve

proparc · « **Reply #17 on:** October 20, 2011, 09:00:39 AM »

ST46 Rules!! One of those in a Chizler with your experience, hummm-do see good things at VSC in your future.

Tom Niebuhr · « **Reply #18 on:** October 20, 2011, 11:49:10 AM »

Ted,
I used Dad's on the "Sea Vixen" which finally has the clear on it. (Pictures will be posted shortly) I have never refinished airplanes because I hate doing it.... I still hate doing it!

However, there is another way that no one has mentioned. I did a demo on this at a stunt forum a few years ago. Use a heat gun and it will lift the covering on a wing all the way to bare wood.

John,
Dad's and Dad's Easy Spray are the same thing.

Bill Little · « **Reply #19 on:** October 20, 2011, 12:02:50 PM »

Quote from: wwwarbird on October 19, 2011, 10:23:34 PM

Randy Ryan may use it too, but I think Randy Powell is the one I remember.

Here is one post I found showing Dad's:

http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?topic=23425.0

...still looking for Randy's original post, it had some really good photos that may help Ted here.

...you were right John, here it is:

http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?topic=12018.0

Hi All,

OK, just to set the record straight (LOL!!) you are reading a post from the person who turned Randy Ryan on to "Dad's Stripper". Aaron found it at Wally World and we have used it on several models. Randy Powell was also told of the stuff.

It is the very best paint stripper I have ever used on a model. Not sure of how it would react with Hobby Poxy, but it's worth a shot. Comes with a spray bottle to help application, and by experimentation with the time you let it sit and, the amounts you use, you can strip down to paper or take it to bare wood.

Big Bear

Bob Reeves · « **Reply #20 on:** October 20, 2011, 02:04:12 PM »

I bought two ST46 Plasma p/l sets from Tony Cincotta and at the time he did give me the impression he was the one having them made.

I have one of the engines in an ARF Nobler, works great and didn't have to add very much tail weight. It and the Chizler will be a killer combination for Classic.

Ted Fancher · « **Reply #21 on:** October 20, 2011, 02:58:43 PM »

Quote from: Bob Reeves on October 20, 2011, 02:04:12 PM

I bought two ST46 Plasma p/l sets from Tony Cincotta and at the time he did give me the impression he was the one having them made.

I have one of the engines in an ARF Nobler, works great and didn't have to add very much tail weight. It and the Chizler will be a killer combination for Classic.

Hi Bob,

That's a good point. One of my concerns about using the ST was the need for more tail weight than was necessary with the .35S. I'm planning on using a beautiful "sorta" chip muffler that someone in Ohio used to make for ST vice the Adamisin that was on the Max but that would still be a significantly heavier combination. Have you weighed the plasma equipped ST? I wonder if the plasma combo is lighter...sorta like Randy's AAC VF sets?

Ted

PJ Rowland · « **Reply #22 on:** October 20, 2011, 04:27:04 PM »

Ted : Your point about the muffler is quite valid, thats one of the key reasons I went toward the RE Stalker for my Classics, the overall weight distribution is moved along way back so the need for tailweight is ... well lets say I used zero tail weight on any of my .61 powered classics. - Thats the only thing you ever need to be concernced about with those side exhaust engines, is, the ratio of weight forward of a certain point.

I explain it in more detail in that article - I know you will have it all worked out.

If you miss us - You know the Nats next year are in Perth - Australia April 2012.. You can just fly down and fly a borrowed plane !

Brett Buck · « **Reply #23 on:** October 20, 2011, 05:17:35 PM »

Quote from: Ted Fancher on October 19, 2011, 06:03:11 PM

So, I thought I'd strip my old Chizler down, recover and refinish it (the covering was splitting all over and the finish always sucked) and maybe drop in a VF .25 mit pipe just to make Uncle Mikey Keville cringe at VSC next year. Alas, my attempts to strip the old HobbyPoxy yellow was a disaster. I got some stripper made for polyurethanes and epoxies and tried several coats on the fuse and tail. For some reason it worked fairly well on the tail (covered with carbon veil applied with plain old dope...the stripper didn't touch the dope!) but the fuse is just a disaster. It took it off in a handfull of places (left the Brodak fillercoat in place...weird again) but for the most part it didn't touch it. Can't think of any other method of getting it off, so I've given up.

I have stripped epoxy with what is probably the same stuff (Jasco Epoxy stripper from OSH?) with some success. The key is keeping the stuff on there, and moist, for a LONG time. I had the best luck putting on the goop and then wrapping it with aluminum foil and leaving it for a day or so, THEN trying to get it off. If I just brushed it on and waited, it got dry long before it did anything much to the epoxy. I also found the best stuff is also the stuff that feels like you dipped your finger in hot lava if you get it on your skin.

If I wasn't so over-extended I would take it and give it a try myself, but aside from hopefully tossing in a few flights this weekend I have *no* time for any other projects.

Brett

Randy Powell · « **Reply #24 on:** October 20, 2011, 06:03:52 PM »

As with Brett, I used Jasco stripper (from the local Lowe's home center). Peeled it right down to the balsa wood easily. Weird thing was, after doing that, it also pulled any oil out of the wood. The balsa felt very dry and smooth. I re-did a Cobra.

Ted Fancher · « **Reply #25 on:** October 20, 2011, 06:23:50 PM »

Quote from: PJ Rowland on October 20, 2011, 04:27:04 PM

Ted : Your point about the muffler is quite valid, thats one of the key reasons I went toward the RE Stalker for my Classics, the overall weight distribution is moved along way back so the need for tailweight is ... well lets say I used zero tail weight on any of my .61 powered classics. - Thats the only thing you ever need to be concernced about with those side exhaust engines, is, the ratio of weight forward of a certain point.

I explain it in more detail in that article - I know you will have it all worked out.

If you miss us - You know the Nats next year are in Perth - Australia April 2012.. You can just fly down and fly a borrowed plane !

Yeah, I'm well aware of the muffler/rear muffler issue. That's one of the biggest reasons I've stuck with the little Rustler .40 for my last several classics. A nice little engine for the right airplane but not a powerhouse by any definition. I've got a Stalker .51 that will eventually find a home in my "modernized" Gypsy but it'll have to wait a while yet because I'll need to build a new fuse to suit it. The original fuse box was made with a smaller engine in mind and a truly straight forward Gypsy. I fell in love with the wing and made a bigger tail, cut down the flap chord and screwed with the back end to allow a longer tail moment but really don't care for the final product so will start from scratch with the Stalker in mind.

My affinity for the good old ST is "Nostalgia" for the (sometimes not so) good old days. Nostalgia was the original name for what somebody decided should be callled Classic and changed it and the rules so nostalgia is only a factor for guys even older than me! Alas, all I've got to get nostalgic about is the noise

At any rate, I sort of long for the good old ST .46 growl...assuming I can get one to run the same more than once in a row again!

Ted

Brett Buck · « **Reply #26 on:** October 20, 2011, 06:28:55 PM »

Quote from: Ted Fancher on October 20, 2011, 06:23:50 PM

At any rate, I sort of long for the good old ST .46 growl...assuming I can get one to run the same more than once in a row again!

Get out the old brake cylinder hone!

Not having any ringed versions would seem to greatly increase the odds. Failing that, I have my macho man 46 from the good old days just sitting there gumming itself up.

Brett

Sean McEntee · « **Reply #27 on:** October 20, 2011, 09:43:45 PM »

Build an RSM Ringmaster for duel purpose??

Ted Fancher · « **Reply #28 on:** October 20, 2011, 10:21:17 PM »

Quote from: Sean McEntee on October 20, 2011, 09:43:45 PM

Build an RSM Ringmaster for duel purpose??

Hmmm. A Ringmaster with an ST .46, huh. Should solve the stalling problem.
Ted

Ted Fancher · « **Reply #29 on:** October 20, 2011, 10:23:04 PM »

Quote from: Brett Buck on October 20, 2011, 06:28:55 PM

Get out the old brake cylinder hone!

Not having any ringed versions would seem to greatly increase the odds. Failing that, I have my macho man 46 from the good old days just sitting there gumming itself up.

Brett

Oh, I've already dug it out of the garage mess. Wouldn't even have considered it otherwise. I've sent it off to Cutco to get sharpened.

Ted

wwwarbird · « **Reply #30 on:** October 20, 2011, 10:27:01 PM »

Quote from: Ted Fancher on October 20, 2011, 10:21:17 PM

Hmmm. A Ringmaster with an ST .46, huh. Should solve the stalling problem.
Ted

It would still stall on the corners, but it would get to them quicker!

PJ Rowland · « **Reply #31 on:** October 21, 2011, 01:23:11 AM »

Tell you one package that DID impress me in USA... in a classic was the Aero tiger 36 - Rich G's

I do pine over the sound of the st46.. its just the weight.. Stalker .51.. wouldnt really bother with it.. your ST 46 will have more power.. trust me there. and im very pro stalker..

Look forward to seeing it Ted - Should be a real winner.

Gerald Arana · « **Reply #32 on:** October 21, 2011, 09:25:55 AM »

Hi Ted,

I don't know if you got my EM or not so I'll reiterate a bit. The epoxy/fiberglass that (I) is used on the center sections of wings (or fuses) can be easily stripped off with the heat from a mono coat gun (not an iron) with no harm to the balsa.

Now if you don't want to do that and you are going to trash the ship anyway.........I'll take it!

Bring it to GS.

See you there, Jerry

Bob Reeves · « **Reply #33 on:** October 21, 2011, 10:51:08 AM »

Quote from: Ted Fancher on October 20, 2011, 02:58:43 PM

Hi Bob,

That's a good point. One of my concerns about using the ST was the need for more tail weight than was necessary with the .35S. I'm planning on using a beautiful "sorta" chip muffler that someone in Ohio used to make for ST vice the Adamisin that was on the Max but that would still be a significantly heavier combination. Have you weighed the plasma equipped ST? I wonder if the plasma combo is lighter...sorta like Randy's AAC VF sets?

Ted

Never compaired the weight difference between a stock ST and a Plasma but doubt it is enough to make any difference. All I did was move the engine back as far as I was able to and build a new cowl so I could use a 2 inch spinner. If you were running a Big Art tube muffler you will save about an ounce going to a tongue muffler, one of Randy's tongue mufflers is what I have on the ST in my nobler. The biggest issue I had was having enough room for a tank large enough for the 46. I ended up adding a wart that fit down (actually up) between the engine bearers.

The ST runs in a four stroke the entire flight, just growling away and hardly even knows it's hauling an airplane. It would for sure solve the Tucson thin air issue.

Ted Fancher · « **Reply #34 on:** October 21, 2011, 04:03:24 PM »

Quote from: Bob Reeves on October 21, 2011, 10:51:08 AM

Never compaired the weight difference between a stock ST and a Plasma but doubt it is enough to make any difference. All I did was move the engine back as far as I was able to and build a new cowl so I could use a 2 inch spinner. If you were running a Big Art tube muffler you will save about an ounce going to a tongue muffler, one of Randy's tongue mufflers is what I have on the ST in my nobler. The biggest issue I had was having enough room for a tank large enough for the 46. I ended up adding a wart that fit down (actually up) between the engine bearers.

The ST runs in a four stroke the entire flight, just growling away and hardly even knows it's hauling an airplane. It would for sure solve the Tucson thin air issue.

Hi, Bob. Just for fun I just weighed the plasma engine and a basically stock one on my triple beam dope scale and the plasma one is 17 grams lighter! That's about 0.6 oz Which is worth the effort. I wish I could remember who made the "not really a tongue" mufflers. It was a buddy of Billy Werwage's. They bolt on like a tongue but are sort of "airfoil" shaped and made of stacked up pieces of aluminum with holes in several of the stacked up "endplates" in staggered locations. They're very attractive and seem noticably quieter than the usual tongue full of piercings.

I need to take a couple of pix of one of them and maybe the nice work on the GMA .46 and post them while there's still some intestest in this thread. Somebody will remember who made the mufflers.

Ted

p.s. what prop does the nobler like with the ST?

Douglas Ames · « **Reply #35 on:** October 21, 2011, 04:14:49 PM »

Hi Ted,

Do you mean this old Du Bro strap-on? It's uncut (un-fitted) and complete if your interested.

Bob Reeves · « **Reply #36 on:** October 21, 2011, 06:25:30 PM »

Quote from: Ted Fancher on October 21, 2011, 04:03:24 PM

<snip>
Ted

p.s. what prop does the nobler like with the ST?

Afraid you were going to ask that, I'm running one of the newer Brodak B&O props. Think it's an 11-6 but may be an 11-5, the numbers are gone and I can't remember if it's a 5 or 6 pitch.

Doug, that Dubro has steel plates and is a bit heavier than a modern tongue muffler. Pretty sure that isn't what Ted was talking about. I used them quite a bit back in the 70's but now we have better choices.

Mark Messmer · « **Reply #37 on:** October 21, 2011, 08:37:44 PM »

The name of that muffler is RPM made by Robert Paul. They were made in the 70's, early 80's and bolted directly to the exhaust side of the engine. I still have 2 - 1 for OS 35 S and the other for the FSR and HP 40, which also fits the Brodak 40.

Ted Fancher · « **Reply #38 on:** October 22, 2011, 11:38:12 PM »

Quote from: Mark Messmer on October 21, 2011, 08:37:44 PM

The name of that muffler is RPM made by Robert Paul. They were made in the 70's, early 80's and bolted directly to the exhaust side of the engine. I still have 2 - 1 for OS 35 S and the other for the FSR and HP 40, which also fits the Brodak 40.

That sounds right, Mark. they're pretty pieces of work and do a decent job for a non expansion chamber muffler. I have two I can lay my hands on right now and probably another buried in the junk somewhere. All for ST .46s.

Ted

RandySmith · « **Reply #39 on:** October 23, 2011, 08:58:50 PM »

""""Hi, Bob. Just for fun I just weighed the plasma engine and a basically stock one on my triple beam dope scale and the plasma one is 17 grams lighter! That's about 0.6 oz Which is worth the effort. I wish I could remember who made the "not really a tongue" mufflers. It was a buddy of Billy Werwage's. They bolt on like a tongue but are sort of "airfoil" shaped and made of stacked up pieces of aluminum with holes in several of the stacked up "endplates" in staggered locations. They're very attractive and seem noticably quieter than the usual tongue full of piercings.""""

Hi Ted
Bob Paul is who dunnit

R