ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA

[Dennis Adamisin]

I wonder if you stretched them wet then let them dry if they might be even better.  I am going to try that.

I think the stretching exercise helps align the strands of the braid.  I think wetting it would help but I have not tried it yet.

The new ship is borderline between 80# and 100#.  Right now I am on 80# and not having any problems.   Using your new ultra scientific method I should be on 83#.  The tackle store was out of 83# so I am sticking with 80#. I am not sure at my age if a little stretch is all that bad. 

Just to confuse it a little more, there might be a difference in stretch between the "normal" size braids, like original PowerPro & WindTamer versus the smaller diameter braids with the same rating like Maxcuatro, Spin5 or 40G.

Speaking of the new ship, the Canard is exceeding my expectations.  Makes me wonder why you didn't continue with yours.  Rough trim is done and full patterns are being flown.  I never expected the tracking.  Corners, yes, but tracking, locking and no hunting was not expected.  Uses a lot of battery though.

Ken

I never built one, my brother did.  I flew it once and liked it but I could never get on board with the appearance.  Then when I came back I finally started to built one but I did not like where the weight was going.  One difference between yours & his was that his canard was a hinged surface while yours is a stabilator.  INTERESTING!

[Ken Culbertson]

  One difference between yours & his was that his canard was a hinged surface while yours is a stabilator.  INTERESTING!

I moved my response to the Endgame III First Flights.  I wanted to let you know the why for the stabilator but did not want to start the dreaded "thread drift..."

https://stunthanger.com/smf/open-forum/endgame-iii-first-flights/msg657156/#new

Ken

[Colin McRae]

Another use for Spectra line.

I also use Spectra for my stooge pull line. Works great since it does not stretch when pulled. I use the hi-Vis yellow so it is easy to see on the ground.

[bob whitney]

great idea, i will swap out my stretchy nylon stooge line for Spectra ASAP












great idea ,will swap my stretchy nylon stooge line for Spscta ASAP

[Colin McRae]

great idea, i will swap out my stretchy nylon stooge line for Spectra ASAP

You won't be disappointed.

Originally, I used a nylon cord. It stretched so much I could not release the model. Changed to Spectra and never looked back!!

I fly w/ 65# test line and just used the same for my stooge. Also use the same knots as my flying lines.

And I just use a normal line spool to store the line. Easy to roll up when done.












great idea ,will swap my stretchy nylon stooge line for Spscta ASAP

[Dennis Toth]

More people are looking into using the Spectra lines. I have been flying the FINS 40G line for almost a year and a half with no issues. I have switched between cable and the FINS and found no difference in feel or control.

The knot method shown in Michael Stinson video the Modified Surgeons knot, has been solid with no slip or change in length of the knot and it is an easy way of getting both lines the same length. The first three knots are always easy, but until I saw this video getting the last knot at the right length was very difficult. Mike's method is straightforward and a very strong, safe knot.

Best,    DennisT

[Steve Helmick]

Are there any bad reports on the single Palomar knot?   My fingers and eyes are not up to the task for some of these other exotic knots.

ken

The only times I have had trouble with the Palomar knot (slipping), was when using Fluorocarbon fishing line. I changed to using either the Trilene knot or the improved clinch knot, and I actually can't tell you the difference. The Palomar is a quick and simple knot to tie. After a few years, I gave up the Fluorocarbon line entirely, so my knot choice got simpler.

Recently, a bass fishing newsletter I am subscribed to had test results for breaking strength of various brands of braided Spectra lines. The interesting thing was that many of the samples tested broke at well OVER the rated number. How they did the tests, I'm not sure, but I strongly suspect that no knots are involved. Perhaps there is a YouTube video showing some knot tests with the Berkley knot testing machine? Anybody? I'm not a fan of Berkley lines, FWIW.

IMO, the color you choose depends a lot on your flying surface. If your grass is green all year, then the fluorescent yellow should be great, but if your grass turns yellow/brown in Summer, then I'd suggest the Red or Vermillion for all year flying. When I flew F1A glider, we used 50 or 60 lb test monofil, and hi-vis yellow was available, but so was a hi-vis orange, but it was more difficult to get. Lots of folks used the yellow, but I found the orange was much more visible, both here in the PNW and also in Central California where the bigger contests were held. Potentially, your choice of sunglasses could also influence the visibility of your line on the ground.  Steve

[Dennis Adamisin]

Whether SS cable or Spectra, I like having two spools of line to start with. That lets me make-up one end then spool out the pair of lines to make up the other end.  With Spectra I started buying dual spools in contrasting colors, on the logic that one or the other lines would always be visible regardless of background.  Recently, I got a couple spools of FINS Spin5 (65#).  I honestly did not realize it at the time, but discovered that I had inadvertently  created the new non-metallic 21st century variant of "Ukrainian" lines... (sky blue side UP of course)

[Ken Culbertson]

difference. The Palomar is a quick and simple knot to tie.

I would not call it a scientific test but I inspect my knots before and after every session.  So far there has been zero slippage on any of the knots and some of them are trimmed way too short (soon to be replaced).  With the Palomar I can get the lines within 1/4" every time and sometimes closer.  The trick is to mark the lines where they will end up on the eyelet and massage the knot till it is tight on the mark.  With the Palomar that mark is the end of the 1st fold and that is what loops over the eyelet.  From there a caveman can get them equal.  With the other knots, even the double Palomar, it is a real challenge to get them even close.  FYI, I picked the yellow since all of my flying is over blacktop but what I was not expecting was how well I see them in the air and how little they stretch once you get them broken in.  I have even gotten used to the humming.

Ken

[Dennis Adamisin]

There has been a lot of discussion in this thread about how people are breaking lines at under the specified line strength.  Here is some background text and video by Dave Burch, the "Braidman" on how FINS tests their lines:

https://www.finsfishing.com/blogs/the-science-of-fishing-braids/line-strength-test

He shows how they test and rate their lines and notes that the average break strength is typically much higher than the rating.  He then states that with knots the lines will break some 30% lower load than tested - depending on the knot used and skill in tying that knot.

Personally I have gotten over the strength issue - I routinely pull test my lines at a load roughly double the expected pull test before they ever make it to the field so I know the lines are capable before they ever make it into the air.

[Dennis Toth]

Anything new in Spectra land? Anyone try some other brands with higher strength and thinner diameters? I have been flying the same set of FINS 40G 40Lb test lines on my Ringmaster for over a year and a half with no roughness or fraying.

Has anyone found a good way to wipe down the lines to remove normal finger oil from running the lines down on the way to the handle?

Best,   DennisT

[Ken Culbertson]

I have been toying with the idea of using 200# Power Pro Downrigger line for leadouts.  With the cutout bellcranks and brass pully thimbles with smooth bolts holding the thimbles I think would be a better solution than wire.  Care would have to be taken that they didn't rub on anything, but we do that anyway.  A perfectly smooth leadout guide that is not subject to cutting would also be necessary. Planes are heavier and turn under force much more than it was in "the day".  All of these recent equipment failures bother me.  Braded fishing line is considerably less prone to break from repeated bending and has much better abrasion traits.

Ken

Just a thought - Ken

[GERALD WIMMER]

Hello I have seen Kevlar leadouts on the Hangouts  (Trian's work) and did the same on a few small models.
Perhaps 300-500lb Kevlar for bigger models?
On cleaning oil covered Spectra lines I found normal dishwashing liquid works when I washed some well used sets that had become sticky with my oily hands.
Best method to avoid getting oil on them would be fly electric only or get some one with clean hands to wind them up or unroll/untwist them.

Regards Gerald

[Ken Culbertson]

Today I got hit with a surprise heavy rain right after takeoff and something happened that prompts me to ask if the stretch characteristic of Spectra lines is different if they are wet.  All of my corners (inside and outside) were what appears to be under turned with a bounce back to the flat which is a characteristic of stretchy lines.  I don't normally under turn corners.  I find other ways to screw up the pattern, but I also don't fly much in the rain.  This was the first time with Spectra.    In the fishing world they are known for their lack of stretch which is in water where it is *wet*.  Is it possible that they stick some when wet?  Line tension was a bit lower which tells me that they were heavy which might have been a contributing factor.    Any thoughts other than why would you want to be connected to a 24 volt battery by wet lines?

Ken

[GERALD WIMMER]

Hello

We have often flown with wet Spectra lines (very normal for NZ), they do stick but wet steel lines are worse for sticking.
They do absorb water and feel heavier but dry out quickly without the rust problem.
Here in Auckland it is wet for most of the year (it would seem) so muddy spectra lines are common but I have often cleaned this and oil build up off them with a detergent wash.

Regards Gerald

[Ken Culbertson]

Hello

We have often flown with wet Spectra lines (very normal for NZ), they do stick but wet steel lines are worse for sticking.
They do absorb water and feel heavier but dry out quickly without the rust problem.
Here in Auckland it is wet for most of the year (it would seem) so muddy spectra lines are common but I have often cleaned this and oil build up off them with a detergent wash.

Regards Gerald

Thank You!  That explains why I was under turning the corners, heavy sticking lines!  Lesson learned.

Ken

[Dennis Adamisin]

I have only gotten my Spectra lines wet in morning dew on the grass and some light drizzle in flight.  No issues at all with stretch or stickiness.  This weekend I think I will wip my lines down - first time ever - using alcohol & a paper towel just like I used to do with SS cables.  Anticipating that it might take some of the dye off???

Pertaining to an earlier post Ken C made, I have Spectra leadouts in a couple of the new birds, pix coming when I can get them off the phone...

[Ken Culbertson]

I have only gotten my Spectra lines wet in morning dew on the grass and some light drizzle in flight.  No issues at all with stretch or stickiness.  This weekend I think I will wip my lines down - first time ever - using alcohol & a paper towel just like I used to do with SS cables.  Anticipating that it might take some of the dye off???

Pertaining to an earlier post Ken C made, I have Spectra leadouts in a couple of the new birds, pix coming when I can get them off the phone...

Two flights today with dry lines - no under turning.  I think it was the line weight.  One curious thing.  In the rain it flew a 5.2 lap.  No changes to any settings and today it flew it's normal 5.4.  Is it possible that wet Spectra has less drag than dry Spectra?  Or does Mike's stopwatch need a new battery? 

[GERALD WIMMER]

Two flights today with dry lines - no under turning.  I think it was the line weight.  One curious thing.  In the rain it flew a 5.2 lap.  No changes to any settings and today it flew it's normal 5.4.  Is it possible that wet Spectra has less drag than dry Spectra?  Or does Mike's stopwatch need a new battery? 

Hello

Interesting speed difference, in team race we run a line grouper to make the lines stick together and go faster or was it to stop the bottom line snagging another flyers head as they are 'grouped' together.
It might just be lines are less fuzzy when wet and more streamlined.

Regards Gerald

[Dan McEntee]

  I have been referring back to this thread as I am learning about this new fishing line stuff, but the thread keeps moving with more or less activity. It might be more helpful if this were pinned at the top of a forum some where. Either here in the open Forum or any other that it would be appropriate for. I've been tying knots in cotton string that I have a lot of and have that pretty much figured out. Now just waiting for some rings to arrive. There have been many threads on the subject but this one seems to have everything in it that I needed and most likely anyone else also.
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[GallopingGhostler]

I have been referring back to this thread as I am learning about this new fishing line stuff, but the thread keeps moving with more or less activity. It might be more helpful if this were pinned at the top of a forum some where. Either here in the open Forum or any other that it would be appropriate for. I've been tying knots in cotton string that I have a lot of and have that pretty much figured out. Now just waiting for some rings to arrive. There have been many threads on the subject but this one seems to have everything in it that I needed and most likely anyone else also.

Or, someone designated by Sparky with good writing skills and very acquainted with Spectra, write a pinned starting post concisely summarizing official rules, other rules (including rules of thumb) for use, proper knotting techniques, what strengths best to use for what size / power of aircraft, care, when to replace, lessons learned, things to watch out for, best brands to use, brands not to use, best colors for visibility given the type of flying surface used (grass, dead grass, black top, concrete, hard clay), etc. May be even include a link back to this thread. Then others can chime in to further contribute to it.

Although there is a lot of good in this thread, because this thread has become long requiring gleaning, I think a fresh start thread recapitulating the good spoken here can go a long way toward a good pinned thread. We are already on Page 6 of this thread, hence my comment.

[Lauri Malila]

I don't use Spectra-type lines in CL, but I think what I do with them is much more violent and stressing to the line.
Wetting is not necessary, there is no "aligning of fibres" necessary. That's all just homeopathy.
Actually, the wetting can be counter-productive aster will be water between the fibres, not allowing the braid/knot to fully compress together when tensioned. Don't underestimate the power of capillary forces.
The most important is to increase the tension slowly close to breaking point. If you pull it tight too quick, the line will break from knot due to friction heat, wet or not.
I pull my 150- and 200 pound lines slowly to about 30kp tension and keep the tension for 30 seconds. Repeat 3 times. Then the line is ready to use but still requires some running-in use, to get rid of the square or flat cross section.
Also, when prepared well, the new higher modulus lines mostly break right next to knot, due to hard point fatigue. To fix this, I make a fillet/stiffener from contact cement next to knot, to stiffen the line a little. L

[Ken Culbertson]

Also, when prepared well, the new higher modulus lines mostly break right next to knot, due to hard point fatigue. To fix this, I make a fillet/stiffener from contact cement next to knot, to stiffen the line a little. L

What prompted that question was the need to wet the knot before tightening it.  I use a double Palomar vs the Uni because I know how to make it exactly where I want it.  While the knots are still damp I stretch them the same way you do.  Three, maybe four pulls till I sense no stretch left.  I will have to try the contact (rubber) cement idea. Rubber cement will move the stress point away from the knot and not restrict it's movement under stress.  I am reluctant to put anything that makes a chemical bond on them.  I think it is crazy to use CA.  I have considered using heat shrink over the knot but didn't.   I have seen some trim the knot to near flush.  Why would you do that?  I don't trim them till they are fully stretched then leave the free line end at least 1/4" long. 

Ken

[Colin McRae]

I have been using Powerpro Spectra lines for almost 3 years now. I don't understand all the concern with the knots, how to tie them, wet them or not, etc. And have used 65# test Spectra lines on models weighing from 30-62 ounces. And passed pull tests with no issues.

Dennis posted a great video on how to tie the knots. I have followed the basics outlined in the video and 'never-ever' had a knot come loose. When completing the knot, just ensure all terminations are pulled tight. The video also shows how to tighten up the knot. Also, when cutting off the loose material, I don't cut right up against the knot. I leave maybe 1/2" of exposed line.

[katana]

I have been using Powerpro Spectra lines for almost 3 years now. I don't understand all the concern with the knots, how to tie them, wet them or not, etc. And have used 65# test Spectra lines on models weighing from 30-62 ounces. And passed pull tests with no issues.

Dennis posted a great video on how to tie the knots. I have followed the basics outlined in the video and 'never-ever' had a knot come loose. When completing the knot, just ensure all terminations are pulled tight. The video also shows how to tighten up the knot. Also, when cutting off the loose material, I don't cut right up against the knot. I leave maybe 1/2" of exposed line.

Quick query - what benefit does the double loop bring other than making the knot physically bigger? It seems to me to be a worse solution having a single line into a complex stress concentrating knot than one with a similar knot and a single loop? I have no axe to grind either for or against fibre lines, just trying to understand the mechanics of the theory? 

[Ken Culbertson]

That is a good question.  I have not had either the single or double fail.  Since I wasn't sure of the answer, I asked "Bing".  Here is what Bing said:

"The Double Palomar knot is considered stronger than the single Palomar knot because it has an additional overhand knot that provides extra friction and prevents the knot from slipping. The double Palomar knot is especially useful when fishing with braided lines, which are slippery and require more friction to hold the knot in place 1. The double Palomar knot has been found to have a 15% greater strength than the single Palomar knot. I hope this helps!"

So there it is, 15% more strength when you fly in the rain.  Now my personal belief is that they are about equal since the line rarely breaks in the knot.  It breaks at the knot.  However, the double is a bit larger and looks like it is stronger around that tiny eyelet, and that makes me feel better when 500 hours of my life is going straight down at 50mph 15' from the asphalt. 

Ken

[Dan McEntee]

Quick query - what benefit does the double loop bring other than making the knot physically bigger? It seems to me to be a worse solution having a single line into a complex stress concentrating knot than one with a similar knot and a single loop? I have no axe to grind either for or against fibre lines, just trying to understand the mechanics of the theory? 

    In the video at the beginning of this thread the narrator says he makes a double loop just for the purpose of wear resistance and durability. In the video he mentions he learned this knot from Phil Cartier and Mike Londke, two well known combat flyers, and they are interested in the extra wear resistance and longevity. Most of the stress and wear is going to happen at the connector terminations, so this make sense to me.

  Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee

[Dennis Toth]

I use this method and use a double loop around the connector. So far been flying them for over a year and a half with no wear at this termination. I do make sure the knot is tight before each flight but have not found any looseness.

Best,    DennisT

[Ken Culbertson]

The picture of that last knot is a surgeons.  Since a surgeons was designed to allow quick switching of fish hooks (they get straightened out allot by fast hitting fish like Bonita) do you loop the ends through an eyelet like you would with a fishhook or just slip the connector into the loop?  I am just curious, I will never use this knot.

Ken 

[Colin McRae]

I also use a short piece of surgical tubing on a scissor-type connector (which is also discussed in the video). It works great. And I don't use any type of eyelet. The Spectra double loop is direct on the connector.

The 65# test lines in the pic are about a year old and I normally fly 2x a week, so lots of flights on this particular set of lines. Absolutely no issues to date. (Even on my 'heavy' Vector 40 at 62 ounces).

[Colin McRae]

The picture of that last knot is a surgeons.  Since a surgeons was designed to allow quick switching of fish hooks (they get straightened out allot by fast hitting fish like Bonita) do you loop the ends through an eyelet like you would with a fishhook or just slip the connector into the loop?  I am just curious, I will never use this knot.

Ken

Ken, if you are talking about the knot/loop picture I posted above it is not a simple surgeons knot. The knot/loop is made up as discussed in the video.

[Ken Culbertson]

Ken, if you are talking about the knot/loop picture I posted above it is not a simple surgeons knot. The knot/loop is made up as discussed in the video.

I was but my question was answered in the picture below.  You just loop them through.  Just out of curiosity, is it difficult to get the lines equal length with that knot?

Ken

[Colin McRae]

I was but my question was answered in the picture below.  You just loop them through.  Just out of curiosity, is it difficult to get the lines equal length with that knot?

Ken

It has not been difficult for me to get equal length lines as I follow the method outlined in the video. I have made up maybe 10 or 12 sets of lines for myself and other flying buddies and I have come up with a good system that works well for me.

1. I lay out my 60' line marker on the ground.

2. On the 1st line, I stretch the line (65# test) to 25 lbs and hold to get some initial stretch. Then I pull the line to 8 lbs and mark the line w/ a felt tip marker at the 60' mark. Then make up the double loop per the video at the mark point.

3. Then I repeat the same sequence for the second line.

My lines come out pretty much equal length, maybe within 1/8" +/-. I compensate at the hard point handle via the handle adjustment feature.

[Ken Culbertson]

It has not been difficult for me to get equal length lines as I follow the method outlined in the video. I have made up maybe 10 or 12 sets of lines for myself and other flying buddies and I have come up with a good system that works well for me.

1. I lay out my 60' line marker on the ground.

2. On the 1st line, I stretch the line (65# test) to 25 lbs and hold to get some initial stretch. Then I pull the line to 8 lbs and mark the line w/ a felt tip marker at the 60' mark. Then make up the double loop per the video at the mark point.

3. Then I repeat the same sequence for the second line.

My lines come out pretty much equal length, maybe within 1/8" +/-. I compensate at the hard point handle via the handle adjustment feature.

I think you have a good method.  I use 100# yellow line and I don't pre stretch.  I cut two lines to 66' and tie an eyelet to each line using the double Palomar knot.  Then I hook up the lines to the plane using clips and measure 67' from the CL to the handle with the controls centered.  Then I mark with a black felt tip the point where the lines will be connected to the handle clips.  Next tie the eyelets to the handle end of the line and hook them up with clips. Test controls to see if I am in the ballpark.  Unhook the plane end and reattach the lines to something solid.  I am fortunate to have a 100' hallway just outside my Office/Shop with a door at the end.  Now I pull the lines to about 60# for 2 minutes.  I do that at least three times or until I feel no stretch when I release the pull and I do that with the knots wet.  Trim the ends to1/2".  Takes less time than wrapping a set of steel lines.

Ken

[Colin McRae]

It has not been difficult for me to get equal length lines as I follow the method outlined in the video. I have made up maybe 10 or 12 sets of lines for myself and other flying buddies and I have come up with a good system that works well for me.

1. I lay out my 60' line marker on the ground.

2. On the 1st line, I stretch the line (65# test) to 25 lbs and hold to get some initial stretch. Then I pull the line to 8 lbs and mark the line w/ a felt tip marker at the 60' mark. Then make up the double loop per the video at the mark point.

3. Then I repeat the same sequence for the second line.

My lines come out pretty much equal length, maybe within 1/8" +/-. I compensate at the hard point handle via the handle adjustment feature.

Ken, a bit more info on how I make up my lines to get equal length. I don't use a flying model to make up the lines. I make up the lines in my back yard.

I have an eye screw attached to a simple 2x4. The cinder block works as an anchor so I can pull (stretch) without movement.

1. I cut 2 lines maybe 6'-7' longer than the line length I want.

2. I make up a double loop on each line per the knot-tying video and attach to the eye screw with a zip tie.

3. I measure 60' away from the eye screw and mark the length point on the ground.

4. Then as previously stated, I start with one line and pull to 25 lbs and hold to get some initial stretch. (I use a digital fish scale)

5. Then I pull the line directly over the 60' marked point on the ground to 8 lbs and mark location with a felt pen.

6. Then I make up the second double loop per the knot tie video at the felt tip mark point on the line.

7. Then repeat the entire process for the 2nd line.

Lines come out even length.

BTW, the 25# stretch load and 8# length-marking load are somewhat arbitrary. For 65# Spectra, I wanted to stretch the line a bit less than 1/2 the line ultimate strength. The 8# length-marking load is a bit more than the flying load for a reasonably heavy model. Round numbers, a large stunter flying at say 60' and at a 5 sec lap time maybe pulls 10-12 lbs at the handle, or 5-6 lbs on each line in level flight.

[Ara Dedekian]

4. Then as previously stated, I start with one line and pull to 25 lbs and hold to get some initial stretch. (I use a digital fish scale)
t.

       Being a neophyte musician, I stretch out the lines between two worn brake rotors, tie the first line then pluck and adjust the tension on the second to get the same note on both. Stretch and length come out reasonably equal.

        Ara

[Dennis Adamisin]

Tried a new technique yesterday, ended up with the most accurate lines I have ever made, Spectra or cable.

I was making lines using two spools of line.  In the past I have had trouble with accuracy because (I think) each spool of line had a slightly different stretch properties.  Thus, when I made up the line then stretched them, the lines would end up (some times substantially) different lengths after stretch.

This time I followed advice given to me by Dick Imhoff a couple years ago but which I had never done (doh!).  I made up a single line a little over double the length I wanted for my line set.  In this case I was making 63’ lines so I started by making up a single 130’ line.  Then I proceeded to do the stretching cycle, that is 50% of line rating, holding it while I counted to 100.

After stretching, I doubled the line over with both tied ends anchored on a single spike and cut the line in half, each line thus being 65’ long.  I had another spike 63’ away and used it to mark and tie the second end just like the Mike Stinson video shows.  The lines ended up within 1/16”.  Finally, I installed the welded rings in the ends, linked the finished lines end to end and again pulled them to 50% load again, this time counting to 50.  Note at that stage I was only verifying the integrity of the second set of ends plus tightening up the “Lenny Loops” around the welded rings.

Then I made a second set, same method, same result – as it should be.

The pre-stretch step was easy to incorporate into the process, and would help even when making lines from a single spool.  Best of all, the end product is more accurate because the line stretch is already in there!

[GERALD WIMMER]

Hello
I have made up lines similar to Dennis's method with a loop of line about a foot longer then needed, with both ends made up attach the loose ends together around a tow ball of a car in the driveway and pre-stretch the big loop of line. Then cut one end to get the final length needed with the excess I had added at the start.
Once the first set was made up and I knew the amount of stretch I was getting for a set line lenght and type of line I could then make up additional sets cutting them shorter by the amount of stretch I was getting . This proved a quick way of making up combat lines with a good consistency.

Regards Gerald

[Dan McEntee]

There has been a lot of discussion in this thread about how people are breaking lines at under the specified line strength.  Here is some background text and video by Dave Burch, the "Braidman" on how FINS tests their lines:

https://www.finsfishing.com/blogs/the-science-of-fishing-braids/line-strength-test

He shows how they test and rate their lines and notes that the average break strength is typically much higher than the rating.  He then states that with knots the lines will break some 30% lower load than tested - depending on the knot used and skill in tying that knot.

Personally I have gotten over the strength issue - I routinely pull test my lines at a load roughly double the expected pull test before they ever make it to the field so I know the lines are capable before they ever make it into the air.

    This video answers the question on how they test the line, but I have been doing some test on line I have ,( mainly testing eyelets to see if they could be used in place of welded rings, which are hard to find) and have been having line break. I start with about a foot and a half of line, ( which has been Hyper Braid by Bass Pro and Spectra Power Pro ) and did the modified surgeons knot and loop on each end. I anchored one end to a wire loop around a fence post and was just going to pull up to 50 pounds and see how the eyelet help up. The eyelet was attached with the loop just like in the video at the beginning of the thread. I stated with 65 pound Hyper Braid, and progressed through 65 and 80 pound Power Pro Slick V-2, some new stuff out. Each time I got to the 30 pound range, pulling slowly and evenly, and the line broke right in the middle. No problems with the knots or loops slipping. I just figured that the test rating was established some other way and was based on longer line lengths or some other engineering factor. Any ideas among you other more experienced users and engineering types?

     I have made up a couple sets of lines to try flying with the fishing line on sport models and such. After practicing the knot and loop in the video on cotton string, it was time for the real deal. Mark Hughes and I made up three sets of lone total. one for him and two for me. I think the surgeon knot and loop ends are the best way to go. It's amazing how fast you can make up a set of lines. I think we made the three we did in about 45 minute to an hour and not rushing anything, taking out time and making sure things were right. We finally got a decent day to test fly. I flew my Fox.35 powered rehab Ringmaster that weighs 31 or 32 ounces first. I made those lines from 30 pound test Power Pro. We pull tested the lines to 25 or 30 pounds first, then a few more pulls at about half that to stretch then and held them there. A 10G pull test for this airplane is 20 pounds. I flew two flights with the existing steel lines to really observe how they felt and what the bow in the line was. Then I switched to the Power Pro lines, and I have to say I was impressed. the line still bows but about half as much. I think this line actually measured .012" or .013". It felt pretty good in flight and I can't say if I felt any stretch or not. in fact, I think the model was a little more sensitive due to less slack in the lines, but I'm not going to change anything and fly it a lot more. I noticed the wing drops more after engine shut down so I can probably remove some tip weight. Weather has prevented us from getting back out for more flying and trying the other lines out on a Nobler. But all in all, I have to say that the modified surgeon's knot and looped ends with the welded rings on each end has impressed me. I'll be using the fishing lone for my most flown models that the lines get more use and abuse and take advantage of the durability of the fishing line. We made a set of lines for Mark's Imitation, and he is still unsure, but did not have a bad experience or opinion, just needs to fly it more , but he did think that the model was a bit more sensitive also. Not sure when we will get out again but I'm leaving the fishing line on the Ringmaster and making up some more lines for the other two Ringmasters I have.

  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[Tom Luciano]

Dan,
  I did a test on eyelet ends. check posts 29-31'

Tom

[Dan McEntee]

Dan,
  I did a test on eyelet ends. check posts 29-31'

Tom

   Thanks Tom ! I didn't terminate mine like that, I looped it like they do with  the welded ring. It didn't elongate, but the spot where the loop cinched closed a bit. Looks like your elongated?? I'll just scratch this off as not useable and keep a watch on the sources for welded rings and get a few more bags to have on hand. I got the welded rings Dennis got from Tackle Direct and it didn't look like they typically keep a huge amount on hand! I just feel better about terminating on a ring so I can change line connectors quicker and easier. If the  connection at the connector is pretty tight, working those loose enough to remove it seems tricky without nicking the fibers in the line and I don't want t hat!
   Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee

[Ken Culbertson]

So how do you keep your lines on the ground when the wind is blowing?  Any wind at all and my lines get blown around and worse, whenever a plane lands and rolls over the lines, which is like every time, they catch on tailwheels.  Just for reference, spectra lines stick when you get 20 or so wraps in them. - don't ask how I know.

Ken 

[Dan McEntee]

So how do you keep your lines on the ground when the wind is blowing?  Any wind at all and my lines get blown around and worse, whenever a plane lands and rolls over the lines, which is like every time, they catch on tailwheels.  Just for reference, spectra lines stick when you get 20 or so wraps in them. - don't ask how I know.

Ken

   You need to weight down the handle with something significant, after you weight down the end near the lead outs. Bean bags made from heavy vinyl with some lead shot may be helpful here. That may be one drawback to using the fishing lines, they do blow around in the wind, and you have troubles with the old trick of just pulling the model off the circle after a flight to save some walking.
  Ty[e at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[GERALD WIMMER]

Hello Yes Spectra lines can be tricky when there is a lot of wind when winding in or out but when on grass will normally sit there without moving. Another problem I have had is twigs or even tree bark getting tangled up in the lines and if your really unlucky you get a birds nest of line. I normally wind them up onto the handle , as long as you unwind them opposite way there will be no twists and you can have them out of harms way very quickly.

Regards Gerald

[Ken Culbertson]

Hello Yes Spectra lines can be tricky when there is a lot of wind when winding in or out but when on grass will normally sit there without moving. Another problem I have had is twigs or even tree bark getting tangled up in the lines and if your really unlucky you get a birds nest of line. I normally wind them up onto the handle , as long as you unwind them opposite way there will be no twists and you can have them out of harms way very quickly.

Regards Gerald

I've had the birds nest! - Fired the bird.

One thing I noticed from my latest "adventure" was the difference in how a set of Spectra lines reacts to twists.  The spectra lines don't unwrap as easily as metal.  I don't do the "unwrap loops" at the end of a flight, perhaps I should.  I forgot to unwrap them and had some difficulty getting to the handle on the next flight with the timer running and in haste spun it the wrong way.  Ended up with about 10 wraps when the 10 second warning light came on.  Barely got the thong on in time.  Now before you waste time on the 5-10 things I did wrong here - I KNOW!

So, the plane lifts off and wants to hunt - like elephants.  It calms down and I fly out a very sloppy pattern where I couldn't lock out of any corners.  So, here is what I learned from avoiding disaster at least three times by being stupid.  Spectra lines do not slide over each other as well as metal lines.  With the 1-3 wraps during a pattern it is fine but at 10 it is not fine.  The old trick of just spreading the lines and letting the handle spin to unwrap them doesn't work very well if you have more than a couple wraps and finally, put your plane at the end of the line so that your lines are far back from the blast from the other guys taking off and keep the lines tight so they don't blow into the next zip code.

Three lessons learned in one day and the miracle is that I still have the plane! Will I now go back to metal - 

Ken

[Ken Culbertson]

I have two questions.  First, I flew a plane yesterday that has been in good trim for about two years on spectra for the first time.  It is a full 63" 56oz electric profile.  I was flying on Ukraine .0175 lines before the switch to 85lb PowerPro.
I experienced a rather pronounced inboard yaw on corners.  I expected the opposite since the spectra are both thinner and lighter and was prepared to adjust tip weight.  Is this the expected result for lighter lines?  It was very humid.  Is it possible that Spectra lines vary in weight more with humidity than metal lines?   My first trim movement was to move the leadouts back 1/8" to increase overall tension and that helped.  Also raises my lap time from 5.7 to 5.4 (my normal is 5.5).  That helped but the yaw was still there, just not as pronounced.  I suspect less tip weight and perhaps another 1/8 back on the leadouts.  Correcting for yaw has always given me a brain twist!

Second question that relates to another thread in action right now.  So spectra lines offer any protection from static electricity?  I feel that they do not.

Ken

[Dennis Adamisin]

I have two questions.  First, I flew a plane yesterday that has been in good trim for about two years on spectra for the first time.  It is a full 63" 56oz electric profile.  I was flying on Ukraine .0175 lines before the switch to 85lb PowerPro.
I experienced a rather pronounced inboard yaw on corners.  I expected the opposite since the spectra are both thinner and lighter and was prepared to adjust tip weight.  Is this the expected result for lighter lines?  It was very humid.  Is it possible that Spectra lines vary in weight more with humidity than metal lines?   My first trim movement was to move the leadouts back 1/8" to increase overall tension and that helped.  Also raises my lap time from 5.7 to 5.4 (my normal is 5.5).  That helped but the yaw was still there, just not as pronounced.  I suspect less tip weight and perhaps another 1/8 back on the leadouts.  Correcting for yaw has always given me a brain twist!

Second question that relates to another thread in action right now.  So spectra lines offer any protection from static electricity?  I feel that they do not.

Ken

Hi Ken
Yaw trim is.... challenging!  I do not think this is a Spectra thing, but I have recently rediscovered the importance of just a tick of rudder offset.  The purpose of the offset is not so much to add line tension but rather to stabilize the airplane in yaw.  Last airplane I this was on the MoBest where after a level flight pull out it would wobble side to side for a 1/4 lap or so.  A very small movable rudder was added with only 1/8" offset to cure that problem.  Did seem to help some on the upwind side of the Overhead Eight.

As for tip weight, I observed a condition like you described when I put a Pathfinder on Spectra; it looked like the outboard tip was spiraling down & around then out of the corner, ending with an inboard yaw - improved via weight removal.   I suggest a flight session where you start removing a small dollop (1/4 oz or so) per flight until you start sensing that you gone to far!  Then add some back: if you are anal about it add back a little less than the last amount that you remove and really fine tune what you need.  Again I did that with the Mo'Best last year.  Ended up removing about 11 grams.

For me the anal part was that instead of clipping corners off a 1/4 tip weight slug, I used (wait for it) ALUMINUM tip weight slugs, about 1 gram apiece to fine tune tip ballast..!


EDIT: added italicized phrase in 2nd paragraph

[Dennis Adamisin]

Second question that relates to another thread in action right now.  So spectra lines offer any protection from static electricity?  I feel that they do not.

Ken

Missed your Q2.  I suspect you are right but am uncertain HOW to prove it.  After getting static shocks routinely (i.e., flying in Rouge Park into twilight hours in the summer) when flying with an EZ-just, I used other handles that did not discharge the static into my hands - have not experienced a static shock in over 50 years.

I do not really understand the mechanism by which lines pick up a static charge but it does not seem that Spectra or any other line material would be completely immune to gathering static charge nor whether they would be better or worse than SS cables.

[Paul Taylor]

I wouldn’t think it would conduct much voltage.
Maybe attach two lines to a DC power supply and measure the output?

[Ken Culbertson]

Hi Ken
Yaw trim is.... challenging!

No kidding!  Now that you mention it, I think the plane was fishtailing where it should have been locking.  I blew that off as crappy piloting having not flown in a month or so.  Thanks for giving me an excuse to blame the plane!  Next time out I will divest it of some tip weight and add a few RPM's to keep the lines tight.  Funny you should mention rudder.   It has a cam for just the reason you stated.  Best whisper (shhh), because admitting to using rudder might get you cancelled. 

I was quite proud of how this profile flies.  It appears to fly like a real PA, but after a few months flying the canard, I was shocked at the difference in turning.  My first pullout on the RWO caused several worms to have heart attacks.

Ken