News:



  • March 29, 2024, 06:11:10 AM

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA  (Read 27639 times)

Offline Colin McRae

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 468
  • Are we having fun yet??
Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #200 on: January 25, 2023, 01:19:42 PM »
Ken, I noticed you were a bit curious on the amount of stretch between Spectra and Ukraine lines. I have no idea what Ukraine lines are, but I have some comparative data on Spectra vs stainless steel. I have also been interested in this.

I just happened to be making up some new Spectra lines this morning, so while I was at it, I did a simple stretch comparison with my digital fish scale. I have no idea on the amount of pull that is typically seen during flight, so I used 5 lb (for reference only) on a single line, which would equate to 10 lb pull on a model in the air. Here is what I came up with:

PowerPro Spectra (new/unused lines)
65# test line
58' long loop to loop
5 lb load
Stretch right at 2"

0.015 diameter stainless steel (new/unused lines)
58' long connector to connector
5 lb load
Stretch right at 1-1/8"

« Last Edit: January 26, 2023, 03:12:49 PM by Colin McRae »

Offline Dennis Adamisin

  • 2019 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 4338
Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #201 on: January 25, 2023, 02:04:21 PM »
There is nothing wrong with tying the Spectra lines to the connectors directly using Larkshead knots (Lenny Loops!), it works well.

I have started using welded rings (NOT split rings) at each end of the lines because it makes it pretty easy to just use regular clips for all of the hardpoint handles.  Here's what I am doing:

I am using SPRO Power Welded Rings, several sizes are available, I like the #3.5 size rated at 266#  I get them from Tackle Direct:
https://www.tackledirect.com/spro-power-welded-rings.html

I do not know how to place the pictures in line with the text so I will have to show this the hard way.

* First pix is of the welded ring.  Its about a 5/32" ID, the wire about .015",

* After tying the Modified Surgeons Knot, you get two identical loops.  Pass them trough the welded ring from opposite directions

* Slip some forceps through the loops and...

* Grab the welded ring with the forceps.

* Using the forceps, pull the welded ring back through the loops, you should see the Larkshead knot starting to form.

* SPIT ON IT, and pull it tight.  I usually install these the last thing before doing the stretch/normalization on the lines; that is I pre-stretch the lines with the rings in place.

* You are left with a tidy little ring to pass a normal line clip through.  Even if you tie the line clips at one end of the lines, this will make it real easy to use regular line clips at the other end to get your neutral setting.  if you are using scissors style clips, like the Derrick Moran/Jim Lee clips the wire ring is physically a little larger and less likely to pass between the scissors. 
« Last Edit: January 25, 2023, 03:01:52 PM by Dennis Adamisin »
Denny Adamisin
Fort Wayne, IN

As I've grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake!

Offline Crist Rigotti

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 3856
  • Electric - The future of Old Time Stunt
Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #202 on: January 25, 2023, 03:52:38 PM »
There is nothing wrong with tying the Spectra lines to the connectors directly using Larkshead knots (Lenny Loops!), it works well.

I have started using welded rings (NOT split rings) at each end of the lines because it makes it pretty easy to just use regular clips for all of the hardpoint handles.  Here's what I am doing:

I am using SPRO Power Welded Rings, several sizes are available, I like the #3.5 size rated at 266#  I get them from Tackle Direct:
https://www.tackledirect.com/spro-power-welded-rings.html

I do not know how to place the pictures in line with the text so I will have to show this the hard way.

* First pix is of the welded ring.  Its about a 5/32" ID, the wire about .015",

* After tying the Modified Surgeons Knot, you get two identical loops.  Pass them trough the welded ring from opposite directions

* Slip some forceps through the loops and...

* Grab the welded ring with the forceps.

* Using the forceps, pull the welded ring back through the loops, you should see the Larkshead knot starting to form.

* SPIT ON IT, and pull it tight.  I usually install these the last thing before doing the stretch/normalization on the lines; that is I pre-stretch the lines with the rings in place.

* You are left with a tidy little ring to pass a normal line clip through.  Even if you tie the line clips at one end of the lines, this will make it real easy to use regular line clips at the other end to get your neutral setting.  if you are using scissors style clips, like the Derrick Moran/Jim Lee clips the wire ring is physically a little larger and less likely to pass between the scissors.

Thank you Dennis!
Crist
AMA 482497
Waxahachie, TX
Electric - The Future of Old Time Stunt

Offline Joe Ed Pederson

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 471
Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #203 on: January 25, 2023, 04:34:02 PM »
Help.

All the Youtube videos on tying the double surgeon knot I used to go to now say "Video no longer available."     I've never been able to remember how to tie any knots except shoestring knots and square knots.  I need to watch someone do the double surgeon knot to get it right and getting it wrong may make for an ugly day at the flying field.  All the videos that come up on Youtube when you search for "double surgeon's knot" show how to tie two different lines together rather than how to make a loop at the end of one line.
 
Anyone know of a currently available video on how to tie our control line double surgeon knot?  Anyone willing to make a new video for us?

Thanks,
Joe Ed Pederson

Offline Colin McRae

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 468
  • Are we having fun yet??
Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #204 on: January 25, 2023, 04:52:16 PM »
Help.

All the Youtube videos on tying the double surgeon knot I used to go to now say "Video no longer available."     I've never been able to remember how to tie any knots except shoestring knots and square knots.  I need to watch someone do the double surgeon knot to get it right and getting it wrong may make for an ugly day at the flying field.  All the videos that come up on Youtube when you search for "double surgeon's knot" show how to tie two different lines together rather than how to make a loop at the end of one line.
 
Anyone know of a currently available video on how to tie our control line double surgeon knot?  Anyone willing to make a new video for us?

Thanks,
Joe Ed Pederson

Joe, there is an updated video. I will try to find and post.

Offline Joe Ed Pederson

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 471
Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #205 on: January 25, 2023, 05:47:02 PM »
Thanks, Colin.

Joe Ed

Offline Colin McRae

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 468
  • Are we having fun yet??
Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #206 on: January 25, 2023, 07:09:53 PM »
Thanks, Colin.

Joe Ed

Sorry Joe Ed but the video I mentioned is also not available. Not sure why.


Offline Ken Culbertson

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6037
Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #207 on: January 25, 2023, 09:04:56 PM »
Hi Ken,
Would you mind sharing your source with us?

Dennis
Haven't arrived yet so I can't vouch for them yet but here it is:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08NTRBQXR?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details&th=1

Ken
AMA 15382
If it is not broke you are not trying hard enough.
USAF 1968-1974 TAC

Offline Dan McEntee

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6823
Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #208 on: January 25, 2023, 09:47:03 PM »
Help.

All the Youtube videos on tying the double surgeon knot I used to go to now say "Video no longer available."     I've never been able to remember how to tie any knots except shoestring knots and square knots.  I need to watch someone do the double surgeon knot to get it right and getting it wrong may make for an ugly day at the flying field.  All the videos that come up on Youtube when you search for "double surgeon's knot" show how to tie two different lines together rather than how to make a loop at the end of one line.
 
Anyone know of a currently available video on how to tie our control line double surgeon knot?  Anyone willing to make a new video for us?

Thanks,
Joe Ed Pederson


   I don't have a video for you, but if you go to the AMA web site and the rules book section, then go to the section for C/L and making flying lines. It has a diagram for a knot there that is approved by thy AMA for Spectra type lines. I have never been a sailor or a Boy Scout so I am "knit challenged" also!! I have been able to make this one work when making the few sets of lines for 1/2A stuff that I hve made. Check it out and try it on some regular string for practice.
  Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee
AMA 28784
EAA  1038824
AMA 480405 (American Motorcyclist Association)

Offline Ken Culbertson

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6037
Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #209 on: January 25, 2023, 09:56:59 PM »
Thanks Dennis - Ordered 20.  A bit pricy but exactly what I was looking for.

ken
AMA 15382
If it is not broke you are not trying hard enough.
USAF 1968-1974 TAC

Offline Steve Glass

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 68
Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #210 on: January 26, 2023, 12:17:52 PM »
Does this series of photos help with tying the surgeons knot? Hope the video reappears soon.

Steve

Offline Ken Culbertson

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6037
Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #211 on: January 26, 2023, 08:19:58 PM »
Does this series of photos help with tying the surgeons knot? Hope the video reappears soon.

Steve
You convinced me.  I am using a Palomar Knot!  Tied thousands of them on fishing tackle and don't recall one ever slipping, mainly because the stuff we fished for usually cut the leader wire first!

Ken
AMA 15382
If it is not broke you are not trying hard enough.
USAF 1968-1974 TAC

Offline Ken Culbertson

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6037
Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #212 on: January 28, 2023, 09:20:34 PM »
Haven't arrived yet so I can't vouch for them yet but here it is:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08NTRBQXR?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details&th=1

Ken
They came today and are exactly what I expected.  "Identical" to the ones Power Pro and Fins come on.

Ken
AMA 15382
If it is not broke you are not trying hard enough.
USAF 1968-1974 TAC

Offline Ken Culbertson

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6037
Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #213 on: February 10, 2023, 10:17:59 AM »
Another question.  Does using a felt tip pen on Spectra in any way weaken them?

Ken
AMA 15382
If it is not broke you are not trying hard enough.
USAF 1968-1974 TAC

Offline john e. holliday

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 22752
Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #214 on: February 10, 2023, 12:06:39 PM »
So far mine have held up after using felt tip to mark the lines. D>K
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline Dennis Toth

  • 2020 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 4209
Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #215 on: February 10, 2023, 02:55:00 PM »
I have also used felt tipped marker on Spectra (FINS 40G) to mark the end of the line with no issues. Flying those lines for over a year.

Best,     DennisT

Offline phil c

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2480
Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #216 on: February 10, 2023, 07:23:59 PM »
It was interesting reading the last round of comments.  Spectra(gelspun polyethylene with VERY long molecules).  You can actually see them if you break a line and have a good magnifying glass handy.  The molecules are still there, and visible if you get the lighting right and the angles right.

The keys are to remember that the line can be damaged by heat. That means something around or over 300^deg. F.  The line will hold every bit of its breaking strength as long as it isn't melted, or abraded enough that you can see individual fibers.  I was really pleased when I could test the Spectra as F2D lines.  It was a real treat to see both sets of lines stretching exactly the same- about 2.5in.

phil Cartier

Offline Crist Rigotti

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 3856
  • Electric - The future of Old Time Stunt
Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #217 on: February 16, 2023, 09:29:45 AM »
Is there 1 place I can go and get all the details of tying my Spectra lines?  Going through thread is torture.
Crist
AMA 482497
Waxahachie, TX
Electric - The Future of Old Time Stunt

Offline Brent Williams

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1260
    • Fancher Handles - Presented by Brent Williams
Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #218 on: February 16, 2023, 10:54:55 AM »
Is there 1 place I can go and get all the details of tying my Spectra lines?  Going through thread is torture.
This is the knot that has been used for years in combat.  Picture provided by Phil Cartier. 
Use the exact same motions as shown, just double the material over to start with.  Mark it with a sharpie to establish the exact length you want.  Spit on it when you draw it tight.  Don't use superglue or epoxy.  Attach to your line clip with a Larks Head knot.
Laser-cut, "Ted Fancher Precision-Pro" Hard Point Handle Kits are available again.  PM for info.
https://stunthanger.com/smf/brent-williams'-fancher-handles-and-cl-parts/ted-fancher's-precision-pro-handle-kit-by-brent-williams-information/

Offline Ken Culbertson

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6037
Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #219 on: February 16, 2023, 02:15:14 PM »
Are there any bad reports on the single Palomar knot?   My fingers and eyes are not up to the task for some of these other exotic knots.

ken
AMA 15382
If it is not broke you are not trying hard enough.
USAF 1968-1974 TAC

Offline Dan McEntee

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6823
Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #220 on: February 16, 2023, 03:06:08 PM »
This is the knot that has been used for years in combat.  Picture provided by Phil Cartier. 
Use the exact same motions as shown, just double the material over to start with.  Mark it with a sharpie to establish the exact length you want.  Spit on it when you draw it tight.  Don't use superglue or epoxy.  Attach to your line clip with a Larks Head knot.

  And what is a Larks Head Knot? Some of us were never sailors nor Boy Scouts!! y1 In my limited use of Spectra type line, I'm tying to a small ring, and then attaching line clips to that, sort of traditional method I guess, so I can change styles of connectors easily.
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee


AMA 28784
EAA  1038824
AMA 480405 (American Motorcyclist Association)

Offline Brent Williams

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1260
    • Fancher Handles - Presented by Brent Williams
Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #221 on: February 16, 2023, 03:56:29 PM »
The disadvantage to the palomar knot is its difficulty in achieving the precise line length you desire.  The popular modified double loop figure-8 knot allows you to mark where you want the line length to be, and to actually acheive that feat.  Practice on a segment of rope to learn the motions.

You use the combat tested, modified surgeons knot to establish the line length you need. Then use the simple larks head knot to connect the line to the clips. 

(Eagle Scout bonus trivia) The larks head is a very simple common knot and is also known as a cow hitch.  Recently the knot has been dubbed the Lenny Loop, from Len Bourrel on the Stunhanger video hangout.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2023, 01:12:14 PM by Brent Williams »
Laser-cut, "Ted Fancher Precision-Pro" Hard Point Handle Kits are available again.  PM for info.
https://stunthanger.com/smf/brent-williams'-fancher-handles-and-cl-parts/ted-fancher's-precision-pro-handle-kit-by-brent-williams-information/

Offline phil c

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2480
Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #222 on: February 16, 2023, 04:12:25 PM »
[quote

Also why use a thimble? Would it not be better to just tie right to the line clip?


 Some guys have concern about securing to a line clip because of the tight radius. The thimble will spread the load.  So far in combat the only area of concern has been where the line passes thru the leadout guide. In time chaffing has occurred,  which will cause an eventual failure.
  Phil C is really the authority on the knot. He says modified surgeons,  thats alright by me!

Tom
securing to a line clip because of the tight radius/

Tom- I tried about 50 times to find a good termination with Spectra that was readily available.  The best thing seems to be to make the loops about 1/2in diamter, finished.  Bigger is OK if you need or want it.  It's best to wet the knot and gently pull it tight and snug so it doesn't really have a chance to pull it tight.

A lot of people are attracted to other methods, but it really doesn't seem to be needed, unless you have off the wall needs, such as an 80lb stunter!

Cheers

Phi Cartier
phil Cartier

Offline Kafin Noe’man

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 234
Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #223 on: March 28, 2023, 07:13:06 AM »
After doing some research, I’ve found that I need the 65lbs spectra lines. I will fly Vector, Cardinal, Banshee, XEBEC with engines ranging from LA 25, Enya SS30, Enya 35XS, Enya SS40.

I’ve read the most recommended brand is Power Pro MaxCuatro, but it’s hard to find it here in Indonesia.

I can only find these (see pictures). What do you think about it? Do you have any other recommended brand?
Currently I fly with Sullivan 7 strand stainless steel cable 0.015x60 feet.








Best,
Kafin
INA 1630
I fly: Vector, Cardinal, XEBEC, and Banshee

Offline Ara Dedekian

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 488
  • Ara Dedekian
Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #224 on: March 28, 2023, 08:38:49 AM »


     Kafin,

        I've been using the green box Power Pro ever since abandoning steel lines about five years ago. I use them for 1/2A(30 lb. test) up to combat (100lb. test). The green box Power Pro was the only choice accepted by the stunt community back then and I have enough that I haven't tried or compared the later versions. I believe Dennis A. has given the Green box Power Pro the 'OK'. The only mishap I've had with the Power Pro is on my Old Time Taurus. The wire leadout guides were quite rusty and severed both lines.

        I've mentioned on here before that analyzing, testing, comparing, agonizing over knots etc. just prolongs your using them. They're a proven entity. Make up a set and use them; for one, your line kink dilemma will instantly disappear.

    Ara

Offline Dennis Adamisin

  • 2019 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 4338
Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #225 on: March 30, 2023, 06:02:02 PM »
Help.

All the Youtube videos on tying the double surgeon knot I used to go to now say "Video no longer available."     I've never been able to remember how to tie any knots except shoestring knots and square knots.  I need to watch someone do the double surgeon knot to get it right and getting it wrong may make for an ugly day at the flying field.  All the videos that come up on Youtube when you search for "double surgeon's knot" show how to tie two different lines together rather than how to make a loop at the end of one line.
 
Anyone know of a currently available video on how to tie our control line double surgeon knot?  Anyone willing to make a new video for us?

Thanks,
Joe Ed Pederson



Jow Ed

Mike Stinson re posted his knot tying video on YouTube.  I edited post #1 in this thread to link it and it is also attached here:





GOOD LUCK!
Denny Adamisin
Fort Wayne, IN

As I've grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake!

Offline john e. holliday

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 22752
Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #226 on: March 30, 2023, 09:00:33 PM »
Thank you Dennis.   I watched this video several times now and it looks better than knot I am using.  My knot from another post leaves only a single strand of line in the loop.  This one will make me feel better.  Nood to get to go get some te pound for my 1/2A's. H^^
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline Dennis Adamisin

  • 2019 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 4338
Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #227 on: March 31, 2023, 11:53:46 AM »
After doing some research, I’ve found that I need the 65lbs spectra lines. I will fly Vector, Cardinal, Banshee, XEBEC with engines ranging from LA 25, Enya SS30, Enya 35XS, Enya SS40.

I’ve read the most recommended brand is Power Pro MaxCuatro, but it’s hard to find it here in Indonesia.

I can only find these (see pictures). What do you think about it? Do you have any other recommended brand?
Currently I fly with Sullivan 7 strand stainless steel cable 0.015x60 feet.








Best,
Kafin

Hi Kafin
The difference between PowerPro and Maxcuatro is that the Maxcuatro is slightly smaller. For example the 50# Test Maxcuatro is .012", regular PowerPro & Slick8 are .014",  Maxcuatro 65# is .014" regular PowerPro & Slick8 is .016"  Any of these line sizes are 1/5th the weight of Stainless Steel.  For your fleet of airplanes either the 50# or 65# will work fine.

Is PowerPro available to you?  If so then that's a great choice.
Denny Adamisin
Fort Wayne, IN

As I've grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake!

Offline Dennis Toth

  • 2020 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 4209
Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #228 on: March 31, 2023, 04:43:54 PM »
Kafin,
I have used the FINS 40G line (https://www.finsfishing.com/products/fins-40g-fishing-braid-65-100lb) for over a year now and find it is a very strong, smooth line that is thinner than the PowerPro and Maxcuatro line for the same #test rating. For their 65# test line the 40G line has a diameter of 0.011". I use the FINS 40G 45# test (diameter 0.009") for my 34oz ship. I generally figure the line # weight by taking the weight of the ship in LBs x 10 x 2 then get the close line available.

I use the thinner lines to save battery draw. Compared to 0.012" diameter braided cable my results showed  4 -6% less battery draw. This allowed me to use a smaller battery pack that saves 1 - 2 oz (depending on standard pack that is used). For a sport ship, doesn't mean much, for competition it is very important. Plus you get to reduce tip weight by at least half.

Best,     DennisT

Offline Jim Hoffman

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 565
Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #229 on: April 01, 2023, 08:06:08 AM »
Modified Surgeons Knot

The Mike Stinson video and Steve Glass’s photos (post 210) were both very helpful to learn to tie the modified surgeons knot.  Thank you both.
I created (and attached) a brief step by step document that helps me when I tie the knot.

Offline Paul Van Dort

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 178
Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #230 on: April 25, 2023, 01:13:28 PM »
With a lot of interest I have been reading this thread about the Spectra lines. good experimenting and increased insights since the first post of Dennis. Thank you all! I feel that thinner and lighter lines will result in a better total package after trimming. I always felt that the lines were a necessary evil. If I just could reduce this evil......  The proof of the pudding will be in the eating. With little knowledge on the subject (before reading this ) I purchased a 125 meter reel of 50 lbs power pro line. The strength appeared better than the 015 PAW Staystrate tinned lines I am using now, so i think I am safe. I am not so much worried about line stretch because in the air the stretch will be equal in both lines and I don't think that the delta in line tension between both lines while cornering will be very large for models with a normal C.G. location and proper sensitivity. Proabably a tat more steering is required, but nothing too dramatic.  It is a feeling. I don't have the metrics. So do you consider it wise to use this 50Lbs lines for a 70 ounce model with a ST51 and 5.3 lap times? Linetension is about 3G. Thanks again

Offline Jim Hoffman

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 565
Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #231 on: April 25, 2023, 02:46:16 PM »
Paul,
To form your own fact based opinion consider a test. The AMA pull test requirement is 10G. In your case 700 oz (43.75 lbs.) total.  Approximately 22 # per line

Make a small sample, just a few feet long and see if passes the 22# test.  My personal preference is to verify something greater than 10G.

My personal experience is that the samples fail well under the rated load, 50 # in your case.

Offline Colin McRae

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 468
  • Are we having fun yet??
Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #232 on: April 25, 2023, 06:58:03 PM »
With a lot of interest I have been reading this thread about the Spectra lines. good experimenting and increased insights since the first post of Dennis. Thank you all! I feel that thinner and lighter lines will result in a better total package after trimming. I always felt that the lines were a necessary evil. If I just could reduce this evil......  The proof of the pudding will be in the eating. With little knowledge on the subject (before reading this ) I purchased a 125 meter reel of 50 lbs power pro line. The strength appeared better than the 015 PAW Staystrate tinned lines I am using now, so i think I am safe. I am not so much worried about line stretch because in the air the stretch will be equal in both lines and I don't think that the delta in line tension between both lines while cornering will be very large for models with a normal C.G. location and proper sensitivity. Proabably a tat more steering is required, but nothing too dramatic.  It is a feeling. I don't have the metrics. So do you consider it wise to use this 50Lbs lines for a 70 ounce model with a ST51 and 5.3 lap times? Linetension is about 3G. Thanks again

Paul, the AMA has a good guideline for Spectra rated strength vs model weight. For a 70 oz model, I would use Spectra rated at 100 pounds. My heaviest model is a Vector 40 at around 60 oz. I fly it with 65# test Spectra lines.

Earlier in this thread I posted the actual table for reference.

And make sure you make up the end double loops properly. The how-to is also in this thread.

I also have never-ever had a Spectra line failure. But also, to be on the safe side, I have been replacing my lines annually as additional safety factor since the lines are so cheap to make-up.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2023, 07:20:36 PM by Colin McRae »

Online GERALD WIMMER

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 622
    • Auckland Free Flight Club
Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #233 on: April 26, 2023, 05:52:25 AM »
Hello

I tend to be careful/cautious when selecting Spectra lines
1/2A-09 size 30-50lb
Small 15-35 size models I use 65lb
Medium 35-45 size 80lb
Large models  85-100lb line
Stretch , line diameter and feel vary a bit with brands, even at the same test weight.

Regards Gerald


Offline Dennis Adamisin

  • 2019 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 4338
Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #234 on: April 26, 2023, 08:01:52 AM »
Hi Paul
My current line usage aligns pretty close to what Gerald recommended.  The AMA guideline (check out the CL General Rules for the table) is also not bad.

I fly a 71 oz SV-11 on 100# Original PowerPro.  I have a 67 oz airplane that I am flying on 80# Maxcuatro.  I haave a 55 oz airplane that I fly on 50# line, but I want to try it on 65# line to see if it makes a difference

As a generality I think I am a little cautious about choosing Spectra, but my primary concern is stretch more than strength.  I flat out do not know with certainty what the lower limits are.

My current (UNSCIENTIFIC!) rule of thumb (and this is a work in progress!) is that I take the weight of the airplane in ounces and put it on line with a similar rating (rounded up) in pounds.  Thus, for my 70 oz airplane I would look for 70# line, which does not exist, so I would round up to 80#.  I plan on trying the 70 oz airplane that I currently fly on 100# and try it on 80# and see if there is any risk in stretch.

Similarly, by this standard, my 55 oz airplane is a little overweight for the 50# line - thus I want to switch it to the 65# line.

Another way to look at it:  use the 10G pull test as a guide.  The pull test is likely the highest loading the lines should ever see.  With a 70 oz airplane, that is roughly 4.5#, the pull test is 45 pounds.  When I stretch-normalize my lines I pull to 50% of rated load on each line and hold for a count to 100.  Thus on a 100# line I would pull it to 50# and hold.  That means that I have TESTED each of my lines to 100% of pull test, meaning that on two lines I have a margin of double the pull test.

All a long winded way of saying I think the 50# line you want to use is much smaller than I would use.
Denny Adamisin
Fort Wayne, IN

As I've grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake!

Offline Ken Culbertson

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6037
Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #235 on: April 26, 2023, 09:57:09 AM »
Let me piggy back on what Dennis said.  When you consider line strength it is too easy to think that you have two lines and use a size that splits the load.  Consider what happens if a single line fails which is more likely to happen with a spectra knot slipping than a properly wrapped metal line.  100% of the flight load immediately shifts to the other line with a snap as the bellcrank reaches it's limit.  Odds are high that the plane splats but it is 100% if the 2nd line breaks and your pride and joy becomes an unguided missile.

IMHO you should use a line size that will pass the pull test plus a safety factor with only ONE line.  Dennis's size guides will do that.

Now for my latest question (I hate having 60+ years flying PA and being a rookie on the new technology  HB~>).
I recently ordered some metal o-rings for line connectors.  I was advised to use a #5 ring.  They were out so I ordered a #4.  Is the #4 too small?

ken
AMA 15382
If it is not broke you are not trying hard enough.
USAF 1968-1974 TAC

Offline Paul Van Dort

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 178
Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #236 on: April 26, 2023, 02:12:44 PM »
Thank you all. I will ty this one: wft-kg-strong-braid-green-100m-0-25-mm-39kg

Offline Colin McRae

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 468
  • Are we having fun yet??
Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #237 on: April 26, 2023, 02:33:59 PM »
Thank you all. I will ty this one: wft-kg-strong-braid-green-100m-0-25-mm-39kg

Paul, one other thing to think about. I am not familiar with that particular brand, but it looks like it has a green color. A green color will be very difficult to see on the ground.

I use Power Pro Spectra and the hi-visibility yellow color, or the blue color. Both are easy to see when the lines are on the ground. The yellow is best. And some people even use one color for up and a different color for down. Totally a personal preference.

Offline GallopingGhostler

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 510
Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #238 on: April 26, 2023, 02:43:44 PM »
One thing I learned a hard lesson on Spectra, buy from reputable sources, and please, I am not speaking about anyone here but my own experiences. Maybe 6, 7, 8 years ago, I bought some bargain stuff on the 'bay, from a Far Eastern source. They had good ratings, so felt, "why not and save some money?". It was 70 lb. strength stuff, yellow, looked genuine. But, pulled out to 60 feet, it stretched a couple inches, but seemed strong enough.

It was a huge mistake. On my Ringmaster with Testors .35 Red Head pulling nicely in a fast 4 cycle, one line stretched more than the other. I was giving full down and still the plane was making a very tight high elevation loop less than half the diameter of the circle with engine breaking into 2 cycle. I was doing less than 2 second laps, very dizzying, until the tank ran dry. Lines were now not as taut, now I had down control. Brought it in for a normal dead stick glide.

Then on out, learned no longer to buy like that. If someone here says, "buy from this source" and the advising is reliable, I'll follow their advice even if it costs me more. Internet buying can be a can of worms, your planes are worth more than chancing them on cheap stuff.  n1

I also found this true in buying musical instruments. Those bargain $40 guitars with free shipping I bought were roughly finished, they didn't even sand the rough cut string winder holes. Cheap is cheap, get what you paid for.  n~  D>K  R%%%%

Offline Ken Culbertson

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6037
Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #239 on: April 26, 2023, 04:39:44 PM »
The yellow is best. And some people even use one color for up and a different color for down. Totally a personal preference.
You are just the person I was looking for in my post below.  Do you find the yellow distracting in flight?  I am about to make up some new sets and I am concerned that they will be *too* visible.

Ken
AMA 15382
If it is not broke you are not trying hard enough.
USAF 1968-1974 TAC

Online GERALD WIMMER

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 622
    • Auckland Free Flight Club
Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #240 on: April 26, 2023, 05:11:35 PM »
You are just the person I was looking for in my post below.  Do you find the yellow distracting in flight?  I am about to make up some new sets and I am concerned that they will be *too* visible.

Ken

Hello Ken I usually use Yellow Max Cuatro and do not find the color distracting, some have faded to white with age. Sparkly new steel lines especially brass coated ones and shinning in the sun are very visible but still not distracting as I focus on the model .

Regards Gerald

Offline Colin McRae

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 468
  • Are we having fun yet??
Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #241 on: April 26, 2023, 06:25:47 PM »
You are just the person I was looking for in my post below.  Do you find the yellow distracting in flight?  I am about to make up some new sets and I am concerned that they will be *too* visible.

Ken

Ken, the yellow color Spectra is not distracting in flight at all. Totally not an issue in flight. Just a lot easier to see the lines when they are laying on the ground.

Offline Ken Culbertson

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6037
Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #242 on: April 27, 2023, 05:56:59 PM »
I am curious if the single Palamor knot is OK.

Ken
AMA 15382
If it is not broke you are not trying hard enough.
USAF 1968-1974 TAC

Offline Colin McRae

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 468
  • Are we having fun yet??
Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #243 on: April 28, 2023, 08:00:25 AM »
I am curious if the single Palamor knot is OK.

Ken

Ken, I don't know if the Palamor knot is OK or not. But why not just use the simple-to-do modified surgeon knot. It is the right one to use for Spectra lines. I have never-ever had a line failure or knot come loose.

See the video posted by Dennis a few posts above.

Offline Dan McEntee

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6823
Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #244 on: April 28, 2023, 09:23:50 AM »
I am curious if the single Palamor knot is OK.

Ken

  Is this the knot that is posted on the AMA web site and the section on the use of fishing line?? The names of all these knots are confusing becasue some of them are for the same knot or at least it seems so. I was never a sailor or a Boy Scout!

   Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee
AMA 28784
EAA  1038824
AMA 480405 (American Motorcyclist Association)

Offline Ken Culbertson

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6037
Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #245 on: April 28, 2023, 08:31:12 PM »
  Is this the knot that is posted on the AMA web site and the section on the use of fishing line?? The names of all these knots are confusing becasue some of them are for the same knot or at least it seems so. I was never a sailor or a Boy Scout!

   Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee
No, that is a "Uni" knot.  The Palomar is tied much differently.   Fishing sites rate the knots about equal with the Uni a bit stronger, but the Palomar is easier to tie, especially in the field.   Now I am starting to wonder about the Surgeon's Loop knot.  It is the strongest of them all according to some.  Don't the combat guys use that knot?

Ken


Ken
AMA 15382
If it is not broke you are not trying hard enough.
USAF 1968-1974 TAC

Offline Dennis Adamisin

  • 2019 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 4338
Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #246 on: May 11, 2023, 01:16:59 PM »
Hi Ken
I know a couple folks who are proponents of the Palomar knot - I tried it and could not get the hang of it!  The Palomar can be tied to a specific length, and it sounds like you have experience with it.  Ultimately you (all of us!) need to test/prove the knots by pull-testing via the "pre-stretch" setting the braid.  I use an electronic "Dr Meter" pull scale I got off Amazon.  The scale assures that I am truly pulling to the desired target load.  I connect my lines end to end so I can pull both lines at te same time to exactly the same load.
Denny Adamisin
Fort Wayne, IN

As I've grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake!

Offline Dennis Adamisin

  • 2019 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 4338
Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #247 on: May 11, 2023, 02:19:17 PM »
YESTERDAY'S TEST

Up to now I have selected my line sizes based mostly by "rationalized guess". Been pretty lucky so far, but that method is not terribly scientific! Since I pre-strectch all of my Spectra lines to measured loads well in excess of the 10G pull test, I am pretty certain that I have a good strength margin.  i have been much less certain about whether stretchiness is coming into play.  I learned a few years about line stretchiness when i switched from 19 strand cables to 7 strand cables.  That difference was so great that I immediately tossed ALL my my 19 strand lines so I could never use them again!  None of my Spectra lines ever left me feeling that line stretch was an issue - until yesterday. 

I have a 55 oz. Mo'Best that I flew on 50# x 63' Maxcuatro since its first flights last spring - flies well.  Yesterday I flew the Maxcuatro 50# (.012") back-to-back with FINS Spin5 rated at 65# (.014" dia).  It seemed to me that the 65# line flew a little better by a very small margin.  I do not think I would have been able to tell any difference unless I had flown it back-to-back, certainly nowhere as evident as the difference between 19 strand versus 7 strand SS cables I experienced previously. The only down side was that the larger line consumed about 100 mah more - but the sample size is exceedingly small!

How will I apply the above?  The MB weighs 55 oz, or 3.44lb, its 10g pull test is 34 lbs.   That is roughly the same as the 32.5 lb pre-stretch load I routinely use on 65# Spectra lines.  Thus my NEW criteria for selecting Spectra line sizes will be to take the pull test, double it, and use it to select the Spectra Line rating.  That is still simplistic. There are other factors like braid construction that may factor in, but hey, you gotta start somewhere!  I had thought about also adding 80# line to the test (and may yet) but I doubt that it would be detectable. However I have some 50# and 65# lines with different construction & brands that probably ought to be tested back-to-back.

Has anyone else done any similar comparisons?
Denny Adamisin
Fort Wayne, IN

As I've grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake!

Offline Ken Culbertson

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6037
Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #248 on: May 11, 2023, 02:48:53 PM »
Hi Ken
I know a couple folks who are proponents of the Palomar knot - I tried it and could not get the hang of it!  The Palomar can be tied to a specific length, and it sounds like you have experience with it.  Ultimately you (all of us!) need to test/prove the knots by pull-testing via the "pre-stretch" setting the braid.  I use an electronic "Dr Meter" pull scale I got off Amazon.  The scale assures that I am truly pulling to the desired target load.  I connect my lines end to end so I can pull both lines at te same time to exactly the same load.
My father used to own a fishing tackle company in Florida.  You can get pretty close if you put some marks on the lines and pull them to the marks.  The trick with the Palomar is wetting the line and carefully taking out the slack from both lines.  You sort of work the knot into place then yank it.  The double is a waste of time in my opinion.  It can be really frustrating and only marginally stronger.  I have do all of my stuff in my office so line making time is in the hall after everybody goes home.  I use 4mm rings and hook both of them to a single line clip and attach that to a door handle.  Pull till they stop stretching an about 3 timed what the plane pulls.  I was shocked on my first set how much they stretched, then didn't.  I wonder if you stretched them wet then let them dry if they might be even better.  I am going to try that.

The new ship is borderline between 80# and 100#.  Right now I am on 80# and not having any problems.   Using your new ultra scientific method I should be on 83#.  The tackle store was out of 83# so I am sticking with 80#. I am not sure at my age if a little stretch is all that bad.  LL~

Speaking of the new ship, the Canard is exceeding my expectations.  Makes me wonder why you didn't continue with yours.  Rough trim is done and full patterns are being flown.  I never expected the tracking.  Corners, yes, but tracking, locking and no hunting was not expected.  Uses a lot of battery though.

Ken
AMA 15382
If it is not broke you are not trying hard enough.
USAF 1968-1974 TAC

Offline Dennis Toth

  • 2020 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 4209
Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #249 on: May 11, 2023, 04:39:53 PM »
Dennis,
The method you described for selecting line size is what I have used with the FINS 40G lines. When you look at it you can just take the ship weight in oz and get the next size up in LB test rating.

Best,   DennisT


Advertise Here
 


Advertise Here