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Author Topic: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA  (Read 8261 times)

Online Dennis Toth

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Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #100 on: January 14, 2022, 03:15:56 PM »
Dennis,
My plan exactly. I just finished tying a set of  PowerPro Maxcuatro 40 LB test lines using MS's knot with the double Lark's Head to secure the line clip. I did use the Knot Kneedle to set the end point and thread the loops through, for me it helped with the thin lines (0.10" dia). Once all was secured as Mikes method, I hooked the lines to a nearby fence section and gave a good pull and held. It felt pretty stretchy, I really though all was lost.

Then I decided to do the same test with my current 0.012" stainless cable. They also felt the same stretchiness which surprised me. My conclusion is they felt the same so the only way to see if there is any control issue is to fly them back-to-back. Tomorrow is going to be cool here in S FL around upper 50's (this use to be the KOI weekend and 4 out of 5 yrs it was cold and very windy) but low wind so should be a good week to test the lines and the impact on the battery amp usage.

Best,             DennisT
« Last Edit: January 14, 2022, 04:44:55 PM by Dennis Toth »

Online Dennis Adamisin

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Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #101 on: January 15, 2022, 07:12:04 AM »
Tomorrow is going to be cool here in S FL around upper 50's (this use to be the KOI weekend and 4 out of 5 yrs it was cold and very windy) but low wind so should be a good week to test the lines and the impact on the battery amp usage.

Best,             DennisT

I'll be sacrificing a lot of electrons next time that weather shows up here!  Fair winds & tight lines...
Denny Adamisin
Fort Wayne, IN

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Offline Fred Constantine

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Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #102 on: January 15, 2022, 12:04:14 PM »
Yesterday we had a nice break in the weather.  I needed a set of 64' lines for my new Pathfinder Twin which weighs in at a porky 68 ounces.  Three sets were made: .018 stainless, .015 stainless, and .016 Spectra (Daiwa J-line 65#).  I pull test new lines to 30# each while anchored to my backyard fence.  Stretch including line sag after pretension to 5# is very close to the same for each or about 0.8%.  Flight test were made with the same RPM, CG, and lead-out position.  I measured lap times and noted the feel at the handle.  I used the same handle for each test flight.  There was less that 0.1 second variance in lap times, which were probably subject to error due to timing and piloting at the same time. It did appear that the .016 Spectra was slightly slower, but there were not enough flights to get repeatable results. As for pilot feel the results were easier to distinguish and as expected.  The stainless lines were about the same with a slight edge going to the .018.  The Spectra lines definitely had a rather "soft" feel and it was necessary to lead the corners more than with the stainless.  I also checked battery consumption.  There was little difference between flights and many more flights would be required to get any meaningful results. Not a very scientific test, but enough for me to prefer stainless lines at least for now.  I didn't have any 100# Spectra to test, and I'm curious what others have experienced with 100# Spectra.

Fred
Fred Constantine
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Online Mike Alimov

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Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #103 on: January 15, 2022, 03:05:42 PM »
  Stretch including line sag after pretension to 5# is very close to the same for each or about 0.8%.
...
 The Spectra lines definitely had a rather "soft" feel and it was necessary to lead the corners more than with the stainless.
Fred

Thanks for reporting the results, Fred.  Overall, the conclusions line up with my measurements exactly: the 65# Spectra (exact brand doesn't seem to matter too much) is softer than 0.015" stainless and definitely way softer than 0.018" stainless.
The elongation measurements you reported above most likely lacked resolution: at 5 lb load, the difference between the lines would be so small that it is hard to detect the difference using a standard ruler, especially while maintaining constant tension on the line with another hand.  That's exactly the reason why I apply 20# load to measure elongation: not because it reflects the actual in-flight loads, but because it is feasible to obtain decent measurement resolution (say, down to 1 mm or about 1/32").
For a 68 oz plane, you would need 100# Spectra, properly conditioned, and you still might give a slight edge to the 0.018" stainless, if my measurements are correct.

Online Dennis Toth

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Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #104 on: January 15, 2022, 03:47:05 PM »
Today I was able to do the back-to-back test flights of the 0.012" stainless steel cable lines against the PowerPro Maxcuatro 40LB test on my 34 oz E Ringmaster. Having made up the lines and pull tested found that both the 0.012" SS and the PP Max (0.010") felt about the same in stretch from the simple backyard test I figured the only way to see if there was a significant difference was to fly them both.

I flew the first flight on the 0.012" SS lines, they are 59' 6" the lap time for the ship is 4.7 sec.(56 mph). This gives a very solid feel and the estimated the pull is around 7.4 lbs.

Next flew the PPMax 0.010" lines, they measure 58' 10", lap time was 4.8 sec. (55 mph). The plane felt very solid and I didn't notice any real difference in the maneuver's, estimated pull was about 7 lbs.

When I checked the battery it told the story of increased amp use with the PPMax lines which was the opposite of what I was hoping for. I'm thinking that even though the PPMax  are thinner then the SS lines and feel smooth to the touch that the slightly thicker SS lines are smoother to the air and less drag.

I have a set of FINS 40G, 45 LB test lines that are supposed to be smoother and thinner I will try these next time out and see if we save any amps.

Best,   DennisT
« Last Edit: February 05, 2022, 01:52:10 PM by Dennis Toth »

Online Dennis Adamisin

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Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #105 on: January 15, 2022, 05:43:17 PM »
Yesterday we had a nice break in the weather.  I needed a set of 64' lines for my new Pathfinder Twin which weighs in at a porky 68 ounces.  Three sets were made: .018 stainless, .015 stainless, and .016 Spectra (Daiwa J-line 65#).  I pull test new lines to 30# each while anchored to my backyard fence.  Stretch including line sag after pretension to 5# is very close to the same for each or about 0.8%.  Flight test were made with the same RPM, CG, and lead-out position.  I measured lap times and noted the feel at the handle.  I used the same handle for each test flight.  There was less that 0.1 second variance in lap times, which were probably subject to error due to timing and piloting at the same time. It did appear that the .016 Spectra was slightly slower, but there were not enough flights to get repeatable results. As for pilot feel the results were easier to distinguish and as expected.  The stainless lines were about the same with a slight edge going to the .018.  The Spectra lines definitely had a rather "soft" feel and it was necessary to lead the corners more than with the stainless.  I also checked battery consumption.  There was little difference between flights and many more flights would be required to get any meaningful results. Not a very scientific test, but enough for me to prefer stainless lines at least for now.  I didn't have any 100# Spectra to test, and I'm curious what others have experienced with 100# Spectra.

Fred

Hi Fred
THANKS for sharing your experience.  I've read some positive reviews about the Daiwa J-Braid.  Did you use the x4 (4 strands, .014") or the X8 (8 strands .016")? 
Denny Adamisin
Fort Wayne, IN

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Offline Fred Constantine

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Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #106 on: January 15, 2022, 06:15:16 PM »
Dennis,
The Daiwa I used was 8 strand J-line which is supposed to be very round and have an especially smooth surface.  It feels smoother than Power Pro although I have only seen one sample of each.  I forgot to mention that the Spectra had a vibration mode that I could feel at the handle.  The vibration might not be present at a different line length or environment.  I am very curious about other people's first hand experience using Spectra lines for stunt.
Fred
Fred Constantine
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Offline Fred Constantine

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Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #107 on: January 15, 2022, 07:11:49 PM »
Thanks for reporting the results, Fred.  Overall, the conclusions line up with my measurements exactly: the 65# Spectra (exact brand doesn't seem to matter too much) is softer than 0.015" stainless and definitely way softer than 0.018" stainless.
The elongation measurements you reported above most likely lacked resolution: at 5 lb load, the difference between the lines would be so small that it is hard to detect the difference using a standard ruler, especially while maintaining constant tension on the line with another hand.  That's exactly the reason why I apply 20# load to measure elongation: not because it reflects the actual in-flight loads, but because it is feasible to obtain decent measurement resolution (say, down to 1 mm or about 1/32").
For a 68 oz plane, you would need 100# Spectra, properly conditioned, and you still might give a slight edge to the 0.018" stainless, if my measurements are correct.

Mike,
Good info.  I selected 65# Spectra because its' load rating is close to .018 stainless.  My elongation measurements started with one line pre-tensioned to 5# and then pulled to 30#.  All three samples stretched to 6 inches plus or minus 1/2 inch.  I think that much of the apparent stretch was due to absorption of line sag and not actual elongation of the lines.  I assumed (perhaps incorrectly) that a similar condition exists in flight, and I was surprised at the soft feel of the Spectra lines.  I need to re-test elongation without line sag, and find some 100# Spectra.
Fred
Fred Constantine
Calistoga, CA   AMA 6798

Online Dennis Nunes

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Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #108 on: January 15, 2022, 07:25:47 PM »
Today in Napa, CA at 9:00am we started out at a nice brisk 39 degrees with little to no wind. It eventually warmed up to about 54 degrees by noon and a light breeze. A beautiful day to do some stunt flying! This was to be the first time flying with the new braided lines. I originally had a set of Power Pro Maxcuarto 80# x 60' made up that I was going to use. I realized that this was an overkill for my Circulas 25 that only weighs 39 oz., powered by a OS LA 25. I didn't think this would be a very good test.

It just happened that on Thursday my order of the white FINS 40G lines, both the 45# and 65# break strength, arrived in the mail. I ordered these lines directly for the FINS website at https://www.finsfishing.com/FINS40G-p/fns40g.htm. This is what the FINS website had to say about the 40G line:

"FINS 40G is the most unique braid on the market. 40G is a composite structure; comprised of an ultra high strength core which is very tightly overbraided with 8 ends of high tenacity gel-spun PE. Engineered to be extremely round and smooth and stay that way. Donít let the mono-like feel trick you, this is a durable braid with the smallest diameter to strength ratio ever offered. FINS 40G is a real game changer!"

I only had time to make up a set of 65# x 60' lines that was used in my test today. After tying the ends, I measured each line before stretching and after stretching. Each line was stretched at 30# for 1-minute. Each line stretched an additional 2 1/4".

Today with the watchful eyes of Dave Fitzgerald and Brett Buck, I started with 2 flights using my .012 x 60' 7-strand stainless steel lines that I normally use. This was done to get a "fresh" feel for the steel lines. On the third flight I put on the FINS 40G 65# lines. For this flight the needle setting was too rich to do a pattern, but I could do some loops and inverted flight. I could see a nice bow in the lines at this slow speed. The white color on the lines makes them very easy to see both on the ground and in the air.

The 4th flight I had a good needle setting and flew a full pattern. I could tell that I had too much wing tip weight as the plane was hinging on the corners. But, other than that I couldn't tell any difference between the FINS lines and my steel lines. Control response was the same.

On the last flight I removed a 1/4 oz. of wing tip weight. The plane flew better as if I were using the steel lines. Again, I could not feel or see any difference between the two.

For my next test I will make up a set of the FINS 45# test lines to see if these react differently. So far so good. Until next time stay safe!

Dennis

Online Brett Buck

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Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #109 on: January 15, 2022, 09:21:18 PM »

Today with the watchful eyes of Dave Fitzgerald and Brett Buck, I started with 2 flights using my .012 x 60' 7-strand stainless steel lines that I normally use. This was done to get a "fresh" feel for the steel lines. On the third flight I put on the FINS 40G 65# lines. For this flight the needle setting was too rich to do a pattern, but I could do some loops and inverted flight. I could see a nice bow in the lines at this slow speed. The white color on the lines makes them very easy to see both on the ground and in the air.

The 4th flight I had a good needle setting and flew a full pattern. I could tell that I had too much wing tip weight as the plane was hinging on the corners. But, other than that I couldn't tell any difference between the FINS lines and my steel lines. Control response was the same.

On the last flight I removed a 1/4 oz. of wing tip weight. The plane flew better as if I were using the steel lines. Again, I could not feel or see any difference between the two.

    I have little to add, except that, to no one's surprise, the difference in trim from steel to synthetic was very dramatic, as you would expect from the weight difference. I am not sure that the airplane was dialed in enough, nor was there enough flights, to see if the trade-off between tab and tipweight and leadout position needed to be different (which it might be, just because of drag differences).

     But I can tell everyone that from the outside, there was no indication that there was any difference in the compliance, if anything, it seemed more honest (again, just from observation from the outside - after watching *many, many* flight over the last 45 years, there are usually some indicators) on Spectra. Hard to say for sure because the temperature went from 41 to 58 over the course of the session.

     It was a very well-designed first test, certainly showed no indication of any problems or issues of concern with synthetic lines.

    Brett

p.s. Sort of on-topic - a whole bunch of people have emailed or texted thanking  me for "getting Spectra lines in the rules". That's very flattering, but, that really wasn't my motive nor was the rule change particularly my idea. The rules themselves had irritated a lot of people for a pretty long time, just because of the fact that the line diameters fell right in the middle of competitive stunt planes, and never made much sense. This dates back long before the 10G pull test, it made even less sense when it was based on displacement. So a wimpy ST46 pulled 45 lbs (which was frequently more than 15Gs) and required .018s, a 40FSR could easily fly 70+ ounce airplanes, pulled 40 lbs/9gs and could use .015 stranded or **.012 solids**.

  Any number of people recognized long ago that, in particular, the line diameters made absolutely no sense. I could have legally flown with .015 lead solder for lines - except that it wouldn't pass the pull test. This also eliminated or made pointless many other things that are likely to be a lot better/safer/more margin/more durable like Spectra, the Ukrainian or British carbon lines that would pass the pull test with abundant margin. But no one ever submitted a proposal to that effect, so, since while I have plenty of time for computers between my every-other-month flying and building sessions, and after the previous failed Spectra proposal, I went for the whole hog instead, and the CB agreed, so here we are.

    I guarantee someone, somewhere, will try to see if they can get away with 10 lb Spiderwire, and crash in the process, but people used to do that back in the day before there were any rules, too. You won't likely be doing it at a contest because the pull test will weed that sort of thing out.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2022, 10:34:51 PM by Brett Buck »

Online Dennis Toth

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Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #110 on: January 16, 2022, 07:51:27 AM »
DennisN,
Good information, it would be interesting to note the lap times on the different lines to see if the 40G's are less/more/same drag as the stainless. I have a set of 45 LB 40G to test on my 34oz ship and will see how they compare to the Power Pro Maxcuatro 40 LB test (0.010") lines that I flew yesterday. For me the 0.012" stainless cables were less drag/load on the ship the the PPM's. The ship was ~1mph slower for same pitch/rpm and had higher amp usage.

Best,   DennisT
« Last Edit: February 05, 2022, 01:50:53 PM by Dennis Toth »

Online Dennis Adamisin

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Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #111 on: January 16, 2022, 08:13:36 AM »
Today with the watchful eyes of Dave Fitzgerald and Brett Buck, ...
Dennis

No Pressure! NO PRESSURE!!!

All seriousness aside, thanks for sharing your results.  I agree that the unique structure of the FINS 40G makes it something to look into. 

Thank you also, Dennis T & Fred C for sharing your results from the weekend.  We were in the low twenties all weekend, I am jealous of "you guys that flys" this time of year...
Denny Adamisin
Fort Wayne, IN

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Online Larry Wong

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Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #112 on: January 16, 2022, 02:44:30 PM »
DennisN,
Good information, it would be interesting to note the lap times on the different lines to see if the 40G's are less/more/same drag as the stainless. I have a set of 45 LB 40G to test on my 34oz ship and will see how they compare to the Power Pro Maxcuatro 40 LB test (0.010") lines that I flew yesterday. For me the 0.012" stainless cables were less drag/load on the ship the the PPM's. The ship was ~1mph slower for same pitch/rpm and had higher amp usage.

Best,   DennisT
.            Dennis Just a FYI last week I flew my Sky Ray with 80 lb lines and found to much drag, so today I flew same plane with 30lb.Power pro. and it was great just like the .012 stainless that I've been using, did about 20loops and didn't have any control problems, I also pull test them at20lb and seams fine.    y1 #^
Larry

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Online Dennis Nunes

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Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #113 on: January 16, 2022, 03:13:23 PM »
We were in the low twenties all weekend, I am jealous of "you guys that flys" this time of year...
Well at least there is one good thing about California! 

Dennis

Online Dennis Nunes

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Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #114 on: January 16, 2022, 03:16:24 PM »
.            Dennis Just a FYI last week I flew my Sky Ray with 80 lb lines and found to much drag
Yeah, I was pretty sure the 80# Maxcuatro would be too much for my Circulas 25. I'm glad you found out for me.  #^

Dennis

Online Brett Buck

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Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #115 on: January 16, 2022, 03:37:20 PM »
Well at least there is one good thing about California! 

  I went to take some TVs to the recycling place down near Alviso - and it was closed due to a tsunami advisory!   

    Brett

Online Dennis Nunes

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Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #116 on: January 16, 2022, 03:54:00 PM »
  I went to take some TVs to the recycling place down near Alviso - and it was closed due to a tsunami advisory!   

    Brett
Now that's funny!  LL~ LL~ LL~

Dennis

BTW, I did notice that there was also a tsunami advisory for Napa too. 

Online Dennis Adamisin

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Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #117 on: January 16, 2022, 04:32:49 PM »
.            Dennis Just a FYI last week I flew my Sky Ray with 80 lb lines and found to much drag, so today I flew same plane with 30lb.Power pro. and it was great just like the .012 stainless that I've been using, did about 20loops and didn't have any control problems, I also pull test them at20lb and seams fine.    y1 #^

Larry - thanks for sharing your results.

According to the chart PP 80# is .017", PP 30# is .011".  I am planning to use PP Super Slick 8 40# (.012) in place of .012' cables, starting with the Barnstormer & Ringmaster.  I originally bought this line for the Brodak Gladiator electric combat wings which are about the same size as a 1/2A combat wing.  Still got lots of 40# line to use up.

Most loops I have heard of so far is 41....
Denny Adamisin
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #118 on: January 16, 2022, 04:53:35 PM »
Now that's funny!  LL~ LL~ LL~

  I have to say, I didn't see that one coming!


Quote
BTW, I did notice that there was also a tsunami advisory for Napa too.

   Oh, my GOD, the flying site is about 25 feet from the river!

   For those not familiar with the area, if it really did say that, then it was a bit exaggerated. Napa is probably about 30-40 miles from the coast, and it's not going to do anything to the river. Unless the moon decides to crash into the Pacific, I think it's pretty safe from tsunamis. There are some pretty low-lying areas between here and there, but not enough to have any effect from a 4-6 foot high tsunami. Having to strain itself through the Golden Gate Strait, then the Sacramento delta, means even the tides are greatly attenuated. I sure hope so, my place of work is about 200 yards from the bay, and about 18" above sea level.

   The places that had minor flooding and damage were all right on the coast, like Santa Cruz, with the coast facing the west southwest, which is the direction it came from, and, the same direction as the onshore breeze.


    Brett

     

Online Mike Scholtes

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Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #119 on: January 17, 2022, 12:10:25 PM »
Our field at Alameda CA is about 50' from the shore, and about 3 miles in a straight line to the open Pacific through the Golden Gate. A 3 foot surcharge in sea level would definitely put us under water. Luckily we stayed high and dry.

I watched Larry put up a whole lot of consecutive loops yesterday with his Skyray on the thinner Spectra lines and saw nothing unusual or alarming. From this non-scientific evaluation it looks like the lines are fine for smaller models. So far none of us has tried them on a full-size stunter.

Online Brett Buck

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Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #120 on: January 17, 2022, 12:45:54 PM »
Our field at Alameda CA is about 50' from the shore, and about 3 miles in a straight line to the open Pacific through the Golden Gate. A 3 foot surcharge in sea level would definitely put us under water. Luckily we stayed high and dry.

  Aimed the wrong way, though - or the right way, depending on the your perspective! The excuse in Alviso was that the shore was aimed right at the long axis of the bay, so, if a wave did come in, it would hit square on. Of course, nothing of the sort actually happened, but guys at the junkyard got the day off to watch football.

    Brett

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Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #121 on: January 17, 2022, 12:55:44 PM »
Right, we weren't so concerned about direct wave impact as a generalized surge in sea level. We come perilously close whenever there is a king tide several times a year.

I am going to try Larry's Spectra lines on my own .25 size model and see what I think. For the time being I intend to stick with stainless or brass plated steel for my primary model. But who knows where this will lead? It appears knots and line connectors are the issue rather than the lines per se with Spectra type lines.

Offline phil c

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Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #122 on: January 17, 2022, 06:38:44 PM »
Right, we weren't so concerned about direct wave impact as a generalized surge in sea level. We come perilously close whenever there is a king tide several times a year.

I am going to try Larry's Spectra lines on my own .25 size model and see what I think. For the time being I intend to stick with stainless or brass plated steel for my primary model. But who knows where this will lead? It appears knots and line connectors are the issue rather than the lines per se with Spectra type lines.

There should be no issues with Spectra and line connectors.  I've easily used heavy duty equal sized slide clips of appropriate pull test.  We've also run the bent music wire clips(with the closure at one end) or similar Sullivan line clips..  The double loop modified Surgeon's knot with half inch or so loops works fine.  Another possibility if there is easy bellcrank access is to but brass buttons on the bellcrank-  simply a flat head about 0.040 thick with a .040 dia. post(for the lines) and a smaller extended ~0.020 x ~0.18 long post  Push the small diameter through the long arms of the bellcrank and peen the slightly  protruding pin just like a rivet.  It will be locked in solidly.  The line loop can only come off intentionally, or possibly some kind of freak accident that twisted the plane enough to allow the line loop to slip off- maybe sometime when the sun doesn't rise!  Unlike designing and scratchbuilding a new plane which takes a lot of learning and then a lot of time.
phil Cartier

Online Dennis Adamisin

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Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #123 on: January 20, 2022, 08:01:38 AM »
I chatted with Nikki at Brodak yesterday.  It is her intention to stock Power Pro 65# x 60' as a trial - to see if there is any interest in it.  If so she will be open to stocking other weights & lengths comparable to their SS cables.

If you have been "sitting on the fence" about trying Spectra this would be a good way to try without investing in a lot of line. The 65# size is a pretty good substitute for .015" SS cables, It is lighter than the cables but is nominally larger at .016 instead of .015".  This is the size I started my tests with; no issues with stretch, and the slipperiness should come on through.

Not sure exactly when the new lines will be available, but keep an eye on the Brodak site, and I'll try to update here when it is in stock.
Denny Adamisin
Fort Wayne, IN

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Online Dennis Toth

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Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #124 on: February 05, 2022, 02:22:22 PM »
Finally, some flyable weather. I took the S1 Electric Ringmaster out and tested the FINS 40G, 45LB Test (0.009" diameter) lines. Short answer is we have a winner!!

The last test was the 0.012" stainless steel cabel lines vs. PowerPro Maxcuatro 40 LB Test, 0.010" diameter lines. For the SS cable lap time was 4.7; PPMax lap time was 4.8 sec. On the PPMax the plane felt very solid and I didn't notice any real difference in the maneuver's, estimated pull was about 7 lbs. At the end of the test the battery voltage on SS Cable was 18.4V the PPMax was 17.6V, just above cutoff.

Today's test was with the FINS 40G lines, prepared like the PPMax double surgeons knot (per the posted video) using the Larks Head to secure the line clip. Pull tested the lines and all was good to go. Switch on - off we go. Ship felt really good and solid, speed felt right, control response was solid, no sponginess or delay, even when I purposely banged a hard corner just to see.  Lap time was 4.69 sec right on top of the lap time for the 0.012" stainless steel braided cable (4.7 sec).  After the flight comes the real data to see if there is any benefit. Pack is TP 5S - 1350mah, end voltage 18.5V, mah put back on recharge 1093. This left 257 mah in the pack 19%. That is 5% more reserve that with the 0.012" SS cable so by my tests I have achieved my gold of reducing the amp draw and allows good battery life with this setup.

Best,    DennisT

« Last Edit: May 14, 2022, 11:43:57 AM by Dennis Toth »

Online Dennis Toth

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Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #125 on: February 12, 2022, 11:44:09 AM »
Flew today flew the S1 and got to unintentionally test the shock strength of the the FINS 40G,  45LB Test lines with the double Surgeons knot and double Larks Head clip attachment. Since the S1 Ringmaster seemed to be good on flight time and reasonably solid on the lines started to take it through the OTS pattern. All good through the horizontal eights. The vertical eight was where this ship had trouble as it would not turn tight enough loops to do the maneuver. Since the rebuild with the sharp leading edge and sealed hinge line there is no problem with the size of the loops. So, into the vertical we go and does the first one pretty good, I go up the second and for some reason I opened up the top and the ship got off wind a bit up wind. This then cause it to float in on the lines but fortunately I was able to back up a bit and BAM it hits the end of the lines, I got it around but inverted. I realized where it was and leveled it off but then tried to get it back over, (rookie mistake flipped it to soon up wind) and again it drifted loose, back I peddle and BAM again it hits the lines, I get it level and check the neutral is still neutral, all good. 

So, the Spectra lines held fine, knots did not slip, lines did not change length all is good.

Best,     DennisT

Online Dennis Adamisin

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Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #126 on: February 24, 2022, 03:30:30 PM »
While sorting through my brothers modeling stuff, I found his stash of SS cable lines.  I have already thrown my out, but in a fit of inspiration I weighed his and compared them to some of the Spectra lines I have made up.  Nothing fancy, just weighed the lines on the regular 3" reels, then subtracted out the weight of the empty reel.  To make it easier to compare I then scaled the net with slightly up or down so represent a standardized 65' line set.  All lines were made up ready to use. The cable sall have wire wrapped ends, the Spectra's all tied with the Modified Surgeon's knot per Mike Stinson's video.  The results:

.018" x 65' 7 strand SS Cables:        45 grams
.018" x 65' 19 Strand SS Cables:      39 grams
.021" x 66' SS Cables:                     59 grams
.015" x 65' SS Cables:                     30 grams

Power Pro, 100# x 65':                      9 grams
Maxcuatro 80# x 65':                        5 grams
Suffix 832 80# x 65':                        5 grams
Suffix 832 65# x 65':                        5 grams
Power Pro Super Slick 8 40#              2 grams (!!!)

In the Spectra thread on the Combat forum it was reported that the 100# Power Pro was 1/5 the weight of .018" cables - I matched/confirmed that for that size of line.

Bottom line is that for most airplanes, line weight can become negligible, adjusting tip weight by even 1/4 oz will likely be too much!  I am going to build my new airplanes with just enough weight to balance it side to side then determine tip weight by flying, starting at about 1/4 oz.  The new weight boxes we use will likely let us adjust weight a couple BB's at a time.  I'm also thinking that wing asymmetry may be obsolete...


One airplane I can hardly wait to try is my Stuka Stunt which up to now I flew on .015" x 58' lines, that weighed about 26 grams.  I plan on using FINS 40G 45# x 58' which is somewhat smaller/lighter than the 40# Power Pro shown above.  It has 1" longer inboard wing.  Expecting to add inboard tip weight, and/or a tab on the outboard flap to control hinging.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2022, 01:40:02 PM by Dennis Adamisin »
Denny Adamisin
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Online Dennis Toth

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Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #127 on: March 06, 2022, 11:01:49 AM »
Has anyone ever done a test of solid vs. cable to see which has more drag? It would be interesting from the side point that in the past the commonly held belief was that the thinner solids would be less drag than the braded cable, also they stretched less. I never heard of anyone doing a real test. I think with IC it might not be too easy to tell maybe the one with more drag would require a more rearward leadout position?

When doing the side-by-side Spectra test of the 0.012" braided SS cable vs. the 0.011 Spectra PowerPro Maxcuatro on my electric Ringmaster I found the SS Cable had less drag. What I am wondering is if the smooth round Spectra is actually more drag because it is so smooth or is there a surface roughness that can't be felt that causes the drag difference? It goes back to the dimples on a golf ball idea, maybe super smooth is not what we need to look for, maybe something that is a smooth braid (like the SS cable braid) would have less drag?

What I have been doing so far was to look for the smoothest and thinnest Spectra line which so far has been the FINS 40G brand line. This line is a 9 braid line and very round, thin, smooth and high cost then some of the simpler 4 or 5 braid lines, but is if less air drag? Could be that some cheaper lines that are more of a braid feel would be less drag? The trade-off might be that the 40G for the same #Test will be thinner and that even with the more draggy smoothness would still be less drag. If anyone tried this type of test please let us know even if it was solid steel vs. SS cable.

Best,    DennisT

Best,   DennisT

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #128 on: March 17, 2022, 08:06:03 PM »
I am down to my last set of Ukranian lines.  I pray that I will be able to get more someday but I have to make contingency plans.  I prefer Spectra to going back to steel so I grabbed a roll of 65# today on impulse.  I will test them on a 62oz plane on 65' lines (clip to clip).  My question is simple - is this the right weight line?

Ken
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Offline frank williams

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Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #129 on: March 17, 2022, 09:03:52 PM »
When Slow Rat went from braided to solids back in the 80's sometime, the results were surprising.  We thought that the solids would be slower, draggier.  We thought the cable nature of the stranded lines would act as a boundary layer trip, like dimples on a golf ball.  The perfectly cylindrical solid lines would have a more turbulent wake and produce more drag.  Well, the solids went faster.

Why? ... well after a bit of measurements we found that the average set of steel braided 018's were really .0188, almost 4 percent bigger. .  The solids measurement tended to be right on or slightly less.

This doesn't answer your question other than you should be sure to actually measure and not take the word of the package.

Online Dennis Toth

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Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #130 on: March 18, 2022, 01:26:50 PM »
Ken,
The 65LB Test should be fine, look at the video for tying the knots, it works.

You didn't mention the brand, all Spectra lines are good for the rated test, but some brands are thinner diameter and stronger at that. Of the ones I've flow I find the FINS 40G line is the thinnest with least drag compared to others of the same LB Test.

Best,    DennisT

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #131 on: March 18, 2022, 02:20:16 PM »
Ken,
The 65LB Test should be fine, look at the video for tying the knots, it works.

You didn't mention the brand, all Spectra lines are good for the rated test, but some brands are thinner diameter and stronger at that. Of the ones I've flow I find the FINS 40G line is the thinnest with least drag compared to others of the same LB Test.

Best,    DennisT
Thanks Dennis, I ordered some, we will see how it goes.  Lighter, cheaper, stronger and available wins out again.

Ken
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Offline bob whitney

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Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #132 on: March 20, 2022, 07:55:52 AM »
put a set of 60 lb spectra on my veco 35 powered WOW and felt that they had too much drag.felt lite on the lines .normally use .015 braided

Dave Platt talks about flying 15 diesel stunters on .008 and .010 solid lines back in the day in England
rad racer

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Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #133 on: March 20, 2022, 10:50:53 AM »
Bob,
Depending on the Brand, Spectra 60 LB Test is not all the same. I flew my E Ringmaster on 0.012 braided cable then flew on PowerPro Maxcuatro 40LB test (0.010" diameter stated). Although the ship flew fine there was about 3% more battery drain with the PP Max lines. I then flew on a set of FINS 40G 45 LB Test (0.009" diameter stated) lines and it was 4% less battery drain, then the SS 0.012 cable lines. I have been using the 45LB test FINS for all the ships that would have used 0.012 cable.

Use the double surgeons knot with the bit as shown in the posted video, it doesn't reduce the line strength significantly for our 10x pull test.

Also remember when going from SS Cables to Spectra you need to adjust the tip weight and leadout sweep position for the lighter thinner Spectra lines.

Best,    DennisT

Online Dennis Adamisin

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Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #134 on: March 24, 2022, 07:10:09 PM »
I recently competed in the VSC and in the process greatly expanded on my still sparse experience with Spectra lines, thought I share that here.

I think Wes & I were the only ones at VSC using Spectra, but we answered a LOT of questions about them, mostly "how to tie them?" which of course is shown in Mike Stinson's video on Page 1 of this post.  I took several sets of lines along & got even more attention for the BOX I carried them in!  Shown here is the Plano Line Spool box designed to carry & dispense up to 6 spools of fishing line.  However using our normal 3" reels I was able to get 10 reels in there!  Note that this box will work with SS cables too, just so they are on a 3" reel.  here's a link, and I have also seen it on Amazon:
https://www.tackledirect.com/plano-1084-line-spool-box.html

Since the lines were all new and neither of us had flown since last fall the first order of business was to get a handle setting and start practicing. After some warm-up flights on the Ringmaster,  I used FINS XS 50# x 60' (.014") on my Joker OTS that weighs 35oz.  I used a Reyco cable handle (Hot Rock clone) so handle adjustment was a question of  tweaking the setting over a couple flights.  My flying buddy Wesley Dick used the same line material (at 63') on his 46oz Ares.  Wes uses a Brodak "Rock Crusher" handle and got the setting right first try.  Both airplanes are electric and had only ever flown on .015 cables before.  In each case we removed 1/4oz tip weight (all we could pull), but needed to remove more. These lines are mixed colors, orange & blue, (blue side UP) and one or the other of the lines were pretty much always visible on the ground.  We both liked the Spectra, but we have additional opportunities, especially the Joker should be able to fly on smaller dia line.  After the meet I gave my lines to another flyer to try, looking forward to him sharing his experience here.

I flew my 47oz Jack Sheeks "Swinger" Classic using "Pink Camo" Spiderwire 65# x63' (.015"), a good line but not a good match for this airplane.  Frankly, the line looks best on the reel!  The line was pretty much invisible everywhere except on the blacktop circles where the non-black sections of line were visible.

I still have my original set of Suffix 832 65# x 60' (.016") on the Ringmaster.  Those lines will be replaced next time out with PowerPro Slick 8 40# x 60' (.012").  Should have done that before we left, but the Ringer was all set to fly and it was our warm-up airplane before touching the "official" birds.  It did its job, only next time it will be ready to do it better.

I started using #3 size welded rings in the end loops, tied using "Lenny Loops" (larkshead knots).  The goal is durability to attach & remove line clips with absolutely no wear on the loops.  One downside is the rings that I used are small enough to wiggle between the ends of a homemade scissors style clip bent on a clip bender, a little fatter ring would be nice.  NOTE: before I got the welded wire rings i found some others described as solid rings.  These were essentially very high quality washers; cleanly stamped, de-burred and finished.  However they were flat with a small corner radius that I thought could potentially damage the line.  The rings I'm using are bent from round wire and welded - no corners.  I just ordered some slightly larger rings for the next batch of lines.
https://www.tackledirect.com/quick-rig-stainless-steel-welded-rings-3.html
https://www.tackledirect.com/spro-swlslr-035-12-power-welded-ring.html

The "proof" in any new technology is when you start to "campaign" with it.  For us, Spectra lines passed the test at VSC, being easy to handle and performing as needed.  Even survived a person walking through them!  I just need to keep improving my line making chops...
Denny Adamisin
Fort Wayne, IN

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Offline cory colquhoun

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Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #135 on: March 29, 2022, 03:54:32 AM »
Just a suggestion guys, Berkeley Whiplash is very thin ! 65lb is 0.2mm equates to 0.00787!


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Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #136 on: March 29, 2022, 05:00:30 AM »
Just a suggestion guys, Berkeley Whiplash is very thin ! 65lb is 0.2mm equates to 0.00787!

Have you used this much?
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Online Dennis Adamisin

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Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #137 on: March 29, 2022, 08:25:59 AM »
Just a suggestion guys, Berkeley Whiplash is very thin ! 65lb is 0.2mm equates to 0.00787!

Hello Cory
Searched online and could not find anything on Berkley Whiplash.  Do you have any info?  More important, do you have any experience with this line you can share?

No question there are some super-thin lines with adequate rated strength.  My concern is does the small diameter compromise on stretchiness?


I am going to simplify my choices (and possibly be conservative doing it) by using Maxcuatro 80# (.016") in where I used to use .018" cable, Maxcuatro 50# (.012") where I used to use .015" cable, and FINS 40g 45# (.009") were I could have used .012" cable. However, I only used .012" cable on one airplane because those lines were just too fragile.  I have a bunch of OTS & Ringmaster class airplanes, all under 36oz that I used to fly on .015" cable that will be switched to the .009" Spectra, THAT will be a big change for the better for those birds!
Denny Adamisin
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Offline cory colquhoun

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Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #138 on: March 29, 2022, 01:05:57 PM »
I have never used Berkeley Whiplash for control line! My only experience is with deep sea fishing 500m deep using electric reels!
Reason being it has less drag when currents were an issue! It is super strong ,It has zero stretch and good knot strength. I would use a binimy  double and attached to clips ,swivel with dog paw knot as we call it ,very simple . The only issue is ,itís expensive and if you lost a lot of meters  , Iím interested to give it a try on one of my models tho ! Iím trying to load a pic but file is too large,
Found some on Amazon and EBay

Cory,

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #139 on: March 29, 2022, 01:43:54 PM »
I have a real reservation in using lines that are super thin.  It may be irrational but aren't thinner lines more subject to catastrophic failure for small imperfections/damage that may go unnoticed or is the risk the same as it is for thicker lines.  I have become so used to the feel of a kink or rust spot when running out steel lines that I don't think I would spot an imperfection in fishing line.

Ken
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Offline cory colquhoun

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Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #140 on: March 29, 2022, 03:37:20 PM »
I was always shown to tie spectra as doubled , to a swivel or ring,


This is probably the method I will try as I have never had this fail in my experience.
So you would tie loop knot first and then the swivel knot , it would look similar to Dennis pic earlier


Cory

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Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #141 on: March 30, 2022, 01:03:19 PM »
I've used Berkley Whiplash 65lb without any problems, I like it, however I've little experience of anything different/ better.

Using a micrometer, the thickness of the Berkley Whiplash does indeed measure around .2 mm (.008"), however you are squashing the braid flat.  Without a better way of measuring the diameter, that does not squash the braid, my gut feeling is that air will see a greater diameter than that quoted on the packet?

Steve

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #142 on: March 30, 2022, 01:09:28 PM »
Cory, what does he do with the loose end? ???
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Offline cory colquhoun

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Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #143 on: March 30, 2022, 02:16:52 PM »
Cory, what does he do with the loose end? ???
Hi John,
            Not exactly sure what loose end you mean .
But the second YT video is a little confusing I guess, it should be a finished loop !
If youíre talking about the small tail after the loop , you can burn it , itís not as neat as nylon , but keeps it tidy

Cory

Online Dennis Toth

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Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #144 on: March 31, 2022, 06:43:14 PM »
The knot looks very neat but I think AMA recommends (per Mike Stinson video) making a "bit" loop then do the knot. The "bit" in essences is a double loop then do the knot. I like Mike's approach as it is easy to get the lines the same length and it doesn't significantly reduce the strength of the line.

Best,          DennisT

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Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #145 on: March 31, 2022, 09:48:42 PM »
I just made up a handle with Spectra line.






I used 15# yellow for the down line and 15# green for the up line.

Mark

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #146 on: April 01, 2022, 01:44:01 AM »
Cool, Mark.
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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #147 on: April 01, 2022, 07:30:57 AM »
When I was 11 we flew on braded fishing line and carpet thread that was half the distance between the trees in the back yard long.  That handle reminds me how far we have come.  I had a yellow one! LL~

ken
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #148 on: April 01, 2022, 01:07:50 PM »
Some where in the stash I still have the fibre handle that came with some of the 1/2A kits with dacron lines.  Just roll the lines on to the handle.  Adjustments was loops around the handle.   My brother Bob had both of the Thimble Drome handles.  Dacron line on small handle and .018 on the bigger handle.  But what did we know back then and the swivel clip hjow many flights were made using  those.   It wasn't until I started to fly competition that we learned they were not safe.  Guess we were lucky as we never had an accident.

Been using sewing thread to practice the first loop for lines easy as pie once you do it a couple of times.  Don't know howmuch  pull I was putting on the thread but I could not get thread or loop to break.  Will find out when I go to the Power Pro line. H^^
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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: ADVENTURES IN SPECTRA
« Reply #149 on: April 01, 2022, 01:37:38 PM »
Just got my order of Fins 40G 65#.  Looks to be about the same size as PowerPro 65# but much smoother.  My big decision is which connector.  Direct to the clip, loop on the end or tied to a ring.  I think I like a double loop on the connector.

Ken
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