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Author Topic: Adjustable elevator control linkage  (Read 4080 times)

Offline Peter Nevai

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Adjustable elevator control linkage
« on: August 21, 2017, 06:42:40 PM »
Ok I have a puzzle to solve regarding control linkages. I have my RSM pathfinder. I am using a Tom Morris control system. Which means that the elevator horn is slotted. The push rod has ball links at either end. On the elevator side there is a piece that fits onto the slot on th ehorn and the ball link is secured to the elevator horn using a allen screw. There is an opening on only one side of the fuse for adjusting this. The head of the allen screw is facing the opening. Got it? The length of the elevator pushrod in adjusted by turning the ball link in or out on the threaded rod attached to the carbon fiber push rod. My question is How do I adjust the length (screwing the ball link in or out) without unfastening the allen screw that holds the ball link to the elevator horn? If I unattach the ball like from the control horn then the piece that fits into the slot on the control horn comes off and I have no way to get to the other side of the control horn to slip this piece back into the control horn slot! I cannot spin the ball link while it is secured to the control horn via the allen screw.
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Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Adjustable elevator control linkage
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2017, 06:51:10 PM »
Ok I have a puzzle to solve regarding control linkages. I have my RSM pathfinder. I am using a Tom Morris control system. Which means that the elevator horn is slotted. The push rod has ball links at either end. On the elevator side there is a piece that fits onto the slot on th ehorn and the ball link is secured to the elevator horn using a allen screw. There is an opening on only one side of the fuse for adjusting this. The head of the allen screw is facing the opening. Got it? The length of the elevator pushrod in adjusted by turning the ball link in or out on the threaded rod attached to the carbon fiber push rod. My question is How do I adjust the length (screwing the ball link in or out) without unfastening the allen screw that holds the ball link to the elevator horn? If I unattach the ball like from the control horn then the piece that fits into the slot on the control horn comes off and I have no way to get to the other side of the control horn to slip this piece back into the control horn slot! I cannot spin the ball link while it is secured to the control horn via the allen screw.

Re-Pet,

I have a hatch on both sides with one model, the Gee Bee R3.

My others have exposed elevator horns just for adjustment.

My Stuka Tank Buster could be an issue because that model has no adjustment.

Charles
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Offline Peter Nevai

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Re: Adjustable elevator control linkage
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2017, 07:06:09 PM »
Re-Pet,

I have a hatch on both sides with one model, the Gee Bee R3.

My others have exposed elevator horns just for adjustment.

My Stuka Tank Buster could be an issue because that model has no adjustment.

Charles

Right now I can still barely manage this as I have not closed up the area above the stab. I used to eliminate this issue in the past by Holding the flaps in neutral  then sliding the stab back and forth until the elevators were neutral also after connecting the elevator pushrod. The cementing in place. In this case I do not have the wiggle room to slide the stab back and forth because the Stab needed an airfoil shape to fit into the cradle on the fuse to hold it. So the Stab is cemented in place and the only adjustment I have is the elevator pushrod length which I cannot see how to adjust without removing the ball link from the control horn, which is impossible to reassemble once the area above the stab is closed off. As it is it took me 20 minutes to fiddle all of the pieces into place with the area open. BTW, when I looked at the plans and the elevator cradle cutout on the fuse sides I found that the surface was NOT flat, it had the curve of an airfoil laser cut into the fuselage sides. So I had to sand the stab to that shape right at the stab root. Of course this meant that there is only one position that the stab can be mounted in. By extension means that the elevator pushrod length has to be adjusted after the stab is installed.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2017, 07:31:34 PM by Peter Nevai »
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Online Dan McEntee

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Re: Adjustable elevator control linkage
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2017, 07:58:37 PM »
  I would have recut the fuselage side to be flat to match the stab, and cut clearance to slide it back and forth like you are used to. Make sure the relationship between the stab, wing and thrust line is where you want it. There are turnbuckle type fittings out there that have a hex in the middle for lengthening or shortening the push rod at that end so you don't have to take the ball link loose. On my Shark.45 I used a pair of curved end hemostats to hold the little T-slot nut top install it. if you have to, you can make a tool out of music wire that is like tweezers to hold the T-slot nut while you start the screw. You just have to really want to do it in order to figure out how to do it.
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Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Adjustable elevator control linkage
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2017, 08:04:42 PM »
Right now I can still barely manage this as I have not closed up the area above the stab. I used to eliminate this issue in the past by Holding the flaps in neutral  then sliding the stab back and forth until the elevators were neutral also after connecting the elevator pushrod. The cementing in place. In this case I do not have the wiggle room to slide the stab back and forth because the Stab needed an airfoil shape to fit into the cradle on the fuse to hold it. So the Stab is cemented in place and the only adjustment I have is the elevator pushrod length which I cannot see how to adjust without removing the ball link from the control horn, which is impossible to reassemble once the area above the stab is closed off. As it is it took me 20 minutes to fiddle all of the pieces into place with the area open.

Re-Pete,

Depending on the threads on your CF pushrod ends, rotating the pushrod while the ball joint is in place will allow for adjustments also. As per Dan's suggestion.

Gotta have room to rotate the thing even if it is only a bit at a time.

A hatch on each side was my choice for the Gee bee R3, I do have room to rotate the pushrod a bit at a time or remove the ball link and rotate that.

From your photo, looks like you're doing a fine building job.

Charles
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Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Adjustable elevator control linkage
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2017, 08:53:14 PM »
Here's a photo of a fairly "elegant solution" to the problem you mention that I use on all my stunters.  The aluminum clevis is available from Steve Moon (I think).  It has hardened steel pin Held into the clevis with the small screw and the pin passes through the hole in the slider of the control horn.  To rotate the ball link for pushrod adjustment you simply remove the screw (being careful not to drop in inside the "Fuse") and then pull the pin from the clevis ( I use a pair of needle nose Pliers to accomplish this).  Then push the pushrod forward and rotate the clevis (after loosening the small nut on the pushrod of course), as many turns as necessary to get the adjustment you need.  Then simply replace everything back the way it was.  It's not nearly as complicated to accomplish as it is to describe actually!
Works very well and I've used this on at least 8 or nine airplanes with great success!

Randy Cuberly

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Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Adjustable elevator control linkage
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2017, 09:46:55 PM »


Hope that helps,
MM

PS Randy, what keeps that pin from sliding up and down?

The pin goes through the hole in the slider in the Tom Morris control horn that is held in place by the cap screw noted at the bottom of the clevis.  In this photo it is not tightened yet and the slider is all the way to the bottom (longest position).

I chose this solution because I think putting access holes on both sides of the fuselage weakens an already fairly weak and relatively heavily loaded section of the fuselage  (torsionally), in a place where torsional stiffness is important!
Other opinions may vary!

Randy Cuberly
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Re: Adjustable elevator control linkage
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2017, 10:36:06 PM »
Randy,

I have a couple of those aluminum clevis' bought from Steve some years back. The width of the slot in the clevis measures about .155", far too narrow to fit over the slider blocks on the Tom Morris elevator horns that I have. Do your clevis' have a wider slot or did you have to modify the slider block width? Never have figured out how to use them but would like to.

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Offline Peter Nevai

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Re: Adjustable elevator control linkage
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2017, 10:57:43 PM »
  I would have recut the fuselage side to be flat to match the stab, and cut clearance to slide it back and forth like you are used to. Make sure the relationship between the stab, wing and thrust line is where you want it. There are turnbuckle type fittings out there that have a hex in the middle for lengthening or shortening the push rod at that end so you don't have to take the ball link loose. On my Shark.45 I used a pair of curved end hemostats to hold the little T-slot nut top install it. if you have to, you can make a tool out of music wire that is like tweezers to hold the T-slot nut while you start the screw. You just have to really want to do it in order to figure out how to do it.
  Type at you later,
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[/quote010]

Waaay too late as you cn see from the attached images the stab is installed according to plan and with epoxy. There are ply doublers back at this location for additional strength so there is no going back
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Offline Peter Nevai

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Re: Adjustable elevator control linkage
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2017, 10:58:53 PM »
The Tom Morris Horn and ball link
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Offline Larry Fruits

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Re: Adjustable elevator control linkage
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2017, 12:03:27 AM »
Peter,
 Bore a small hole in the outboard fuselage side using a sharpened brass tube, that is in line with the control horn. The hole only needs to be 1/4 to 3/8 inch in diameter. When assembling the pushrod to the horn, use a small stick, balsa or anything else, that will pass through the hole in the fuselage. Tack glue the "T" nut to the end of the stick with medium C/A and insert it through the hole and into the slot in the control horn. Insert the bolt from the hatch on the inboard side of the fuselage and tighten. Then wiggle the stick a little and it will pop right off the "T" nut. Reverse the procedure to remove the bolt and "T" nut when you want or need to make an adjustment. The small hole in the outboard side of the fuselage can remain open and does not need to be covered, and will not be noticed as it is under the stab/elevator.

 By the way, if you use a small drop of C/A on the end of the ball driver to hold the bolt to the ball driver, it makes life a lot easier when installing the bolt. Wiggle the ball driver a bit, and it will come right off the bolt after it is secured to the nut.

 Good luck;
   Larry Fruits

Offline gene poremba

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Re: Adjustable elevator control linkage
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2017, 03:42:09 AM »

 Peter, I have used an item called a turnbuckle. They are made out of titanium and go by the name of "pro links". Basically they are a machined 4-40 piece of titanium threaded rod with right hand threads on one end and left hand threads on the other with a machined hex nut in between and come in various lengths from 1.5"-6". You need to have access to the hex nut thru the top, side or bottom of the model thru a very small slot to be able to get a  special shaped wrench in to turn the turn buckle. This will give very fine adjustment to the control surface you want to adjust, without adding a lot of weight. I have used these for many years in the R/C industry on precision aerobatic aircraft without any issues ever. They are available thru several mfgrs. I believe Chief Aircraft sells them, Hanger9 (Horizon) and several others. Hope this gives you another option.....Gene

Offline Don Jenkins

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Re: Adjustable elevator control linkage
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2017, 07:54:09 AM »
Ok I have a puzzle to solve regarding control linkages. I have my RSM pathfinder. I am using a Tom Morris control system. Which means that the elevator horn is slotted. The push rod has ball links at either end. On the elevator side there is a piece that fits onto the slot on th ehorn and the ball link is secured to the elevator horn using a allen screw. There is an opening on only one side of the fuse for adjusting this. The head of the allen screw is facing the opening. Got it? The length of the elevator pushrod in adjusted by turning the ball link in or out on the threaded rod attached to the carbon fiber push rod. My question is How do I adjust the length (screwing the ball link in or out) without unfastening the allen screw that holds the ball link to the elevator horn? If I unattach the ball like from the control horn then the piece that fits into the slot on the control horn comes off and I have no way to get to the other side of the control horn to slip this piece back into the control horn slot! I cannot spin the ball link while it is secured to the control horn via the allen screw.

Tom's adjustable controls usually have a turnbuckle along with a right and left hand threaded ball link on each end of the push rod, and that looks like what you have.  Put a 3/16" open end wrench on the turnbuckle (it has 6 flats on it like a nut) turn it one direction and it lengthens, the other direction shortens the push rod.

Don

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Adjustable elevator control linkage
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2017, 10:23:34 AM »
Here's a photo of a fairly "elegant solution" to the problem you mention that I use on all my stunters.  The aluminum clevis is available from Steve Moon (I think).  It has hardened steel pin Held into the clevis with the small screw and the pin passes through the hole in the slider of the control horn.  To rotate the ball link for pushrod adjustment you simply remove the screw (being careful not to drop in inside the "Fuse") and then pull the pin from the clevis ( I use a pair of needle nose Pliers to accomplish this).  Then push the pushrod forward and rotate the clevis (after loosening the small nut on the pushrod of course), as many turns as necessary to get the adjustment you need.  Then simply replace everything back the way it was.  It's not nearly as complicated to accomplish as it is to describe actually!
Works very well and I've used this on at least 8 or nine airplanes with great success!

Randy Cuberly

I have one of those in one of my planes.  Was wanting to get some more and contact the Moons.  They are out and do not plan on making any more. D>K
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Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Adjustable elevator control linkage
« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2017, 01:52:15 PM »
Randy,

I have a couple of those aluminum clevis' bought from Steve some years back. The width of the slot in the clevis measures about .155", far too narrow to fit over the slider blocks on the Tom Morris elevator horns that I have. Do your clevis' have a wider slot or did you have to modify the slider block width? Never have figured out how to use them but would like to.

Jack
Jack,
The Tom Morris horns that I use have a brass bushing (tubing) soldered into the slider block to act as a bushing for the pushrod.  This brass bushing is usually too wide to fit inside the clevis so I simply file the sides of it enough to allow it to fit into the clevis.  If necessary one could file the inside of the clevis enough to allow the fit but filing the bushing is easier and stronger. 
Randy Cuberly
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Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Adjustable elevator control linkage
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2017, 01:59:23 PM »
I have one of those in one of my planes.  Was wanting to get some more and contact the Moons.  They are out and do not plan on making any more. D>K

I don't think the "Moons" actually made them.  I'll try to find out who did.  I was told it was someone in Florida!  Would take a bit of an investment, but I'm sure any small "Job shop" could make the things.  I'll check locally to see what it would take to make 50 or so pieces etc.  If it looks OK I'll have some made for sale!

Randy Cuberly
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Offline Jim Svitko

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Re: Adjustable elevator control linkage
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2017, 02:15:15 PM »
The pin goes through the hole in the slider in the Tom Morris control horn that is held in place by the cap screw noted at the bottom of the clevis.  In this photo it is not tightened yet and the slider is all the way to the bottom (longest position).

I chose this solution because I think putting access holes on both sides of the fuselage weakens an already fairly weak and relatively heavily loaded section of the fuselage  (torsionally), in a place where torsional stiffness is important!
Other opinions may vary!

Randy Cuberly

I should have been building with such adjustability features long ago.  Only recently did I start due to the frustration of trying to get everything lined up properly:  stab chord in-line with wing chord, no tilt in stab when viewed head-on, hinge line parallel to flap hinge line, etc.   Even if I did get it very close, I usually needed some elevator adjustment relative to flap position. 

One reason I avoided it was that I shared the concern about weakening the fuselage with cut-outs under the stab.  But, I felt the adjustability feature was necessary and I would hope for the best.  I put a radius on the corners of the openings and I added some 1/32 ply to the inside surface around the openings.  I put openings on each side since I wanted the easier access.  I am glad I put access on each side.

So far I have seen no indication that the hatches have caused any weakness in the aft fuselage.  I do not have hundreds of flights on the one plane that I fly the most but it appears to be holding up.

I use an aluminum clevis that I can make myself.  Or, I sometimes have a machinist make them if I have no time or desire to mess with it.  I use a conventional horn.  That is, no slider for adjusting elevator deflection with respect to flap deflection.  I can only adjust the length of the pushrod by rotating the clevis.  So far this has proved to be enough but I might look into a slider feature as well.

A turnbuckle is probably the ideal way to go since it gives unlimited adjustment.  And, you do not have to remove any pins.  With a clevis, the smallest adjustment is a half turn.  How much that affects the elevator position is a matter of the horn throw and the thread pitch.

For the pin I use a piece of 3/32 wire with an "L" bend on one end and a wheel collar on the other.  I worry about the collar vibrating off but I check periodically and it has not loosened.  Maybe a better way is to drill a  small hole in the pin and slip a piece of safety wire thru it and twist the safety wire ends.  That is, if you can get in there to do that.

Even with two hatches access can be a bit of a hassle.  But, once you have it set, you might not have to do get in there again.

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Adjustable elevator control linkage
« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2017, 02:32:06 PM »
Lots of folks are cutting the rear end of the fuselage below the stabilizer at 45 degrees, and drop the rear bottom off with the fin/rudder assy. to make access much easier to the elevator horn/pushrod. While this is done mostly on "come-apart" models, it seems like the best possible solution to me.

Whether you do a full "come-apart" or not, just making the tail surfaces removable isn't all that high-tech and gives a lot of potential advantages for tweeks and revisions during the trimming processes. Easier than having to cut into the model and remove/realign/replace...we know a few guys who have had to do that to save an evil flying model, right?    D>K Steve
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Offline Peter Nevai

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Re: Adjustable elevator control linkage
« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2017, 04:02:31 PM »
Tom's adjustable controls usually have a turnbuckle along with a right and left hand threaded ball link on each end of the push rod, and that looks like what you have.  Put a 3/16" open end wrench on the turnbuckle (it has 6 flats on it like a nut) turn it one direction and it lengthens, the other direction shortens the push rod.

Don
I will have to check this out, hopefully it is not on the flap horn end of the push rod, as that end is no longer accessible without cutting.
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Offline Chris Belcher

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Re: Adjustable elevator control linkage
« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2017, 04:57:20 PM »
I think you're making this harder than it is. I use this system from tom. Turn the rod to lengthen or shorten, this is for neutral flap to elevator. LOOSEN the allen and slide the slider nut up or down and retighten...this is for flap to elev ratio. I only make one access hatch one one side and both of these adjs are easy.

Offline Trostle

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Re: Adjustable elevator control linkage
« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2017, 05:58:58 PM »

(Clip)

I only use right hand threads because it's easy to take the ball link off and turn it as Chris says above.

MM

The only problem with using only one ball link instead of using two couplers with reverse threads is that you are limited to adjustments in increments of one full turn on that one ball link when sometimes you only need a very small fraction of a turn for the trim adjustment you are looking for.  Granted, the two couplers with reverse threads means that a very small turn essentially doubles the adjustment, but that just suggests to use very small adjustments.

Same problem when using a clevis.  Sometimes it is easy to disconnect the clevis but at least you can get by with making 1/2 turn adjustments (which is sometimes still too much for final trim) rather than one full turn when using a single ball link.

Keith

Offline Chris Belcher

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Re: Adjustable elevator control linkage
« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2017, 06:42:48 PM »
I dont take anything off. I just reach in the access hatch with a.wrench and turn the hex part of the pushrod until the adjustment is made. Tom designs these perfectly to be used just this way. I have used the adjustable length pushrod (without ratio slider nut) with just a slot cut wide enough for the wrench....with.enough "height" to make a 30 degree or so swipe.

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Adjustable elevator control linkage
« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2017, 11:29:30 PM »
The only problem with using only one ball link instead of using two couplers with reverse threads is that you are limited to adjustments in increments of one full turn on that one ball link when sometimes you only need a very small fraction of a turn for the trim adjustment you are looking for.  Granted, the two couplers with reverse threads means that a very small turn essentially doubles the adjustment, but that just suggests to use very small adjustments.

Same problem when using a clevis.  Sometimes it is easy to disconnect the clevis but at least you can get by with making 1/2 turn adjustments (which is sometimes still too much for final trim) rather than one full turn when using a single ball link.

Keith

One turn on a 4-40 thread = .025 inch.  not very much.  Usually more than that is needed to affect any real elevator movement.   Our control systems are actually fairly "sloppy" between the hinges and the bellcrank slop, .025 is miniscule!

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Offline Peter Nevai

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Re: Adjustable elevator control linkage
« Reply #23 on: August 24, 2017, 04:57:12 PM »
You don't need a turn buckle if you have left and right threads on your ball ends, it's redundant the whole push rod is the turn buckle. But, when you try to turn the whole pushrod you're fighting two plastic ball links and you're likely to chew something up with pliers.  I only use right hand threads because it's easy to take the ball link off and turn it as Chris says above.

MM

Unfortunately I can only grab at the push rod from the ends now as the bottom of the fuse has been glued in. The rod has no flats it is round end to end, nothing to get a small wrench on. However as I had not yet finished off the tuned pipe tunnel I have some space to get at the flap horn since there is plenty of room to get my fingers in there from the bottom I can make the length adjustment from there by turning only the ball link or the whole push rod.
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Offline Jim Oliver

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Re: Adjustable elevator control linkage
« Reply #24 on: August 26, 2017, 08:30:14 PM »
FWIW, I have had the Hangar 9 titanium turnbuckles (the threaded part) break from vibration on one CLPA model.........
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Offline Allan Perret

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Re: Adjustable elevator control linkage
« Reply #25 on: August 27, 2017, 08:29:05 AM »
Here's a photo of a fairly "elegant solution" to the problem you mention that I use on all my stunters.  The aluminum clevis is available from Steve Moon (I think).  It has hardened steel pin Held into the clevis with the small screw and the pin passes through the hole in the slider of the control horn.  To rotate the ball link for pushrod adjustment you simply remove the screw (being careful not to drop in inside the "Fuse") and then pull the pin from the clevis ( I use a pair of needle nose Pliers to accomplish this).  Then push the pushrod forward and rotate the clevis (after loosening the small nut on the pushrod of course), as many turns as necessary to get the adjustment you need.  Then simply replace everything back the way it was.  It's not nearly as complicated to accomplish as it is to describe actually!
Works very well and I've used this on at least 8 or nine airplanes with great success!

Randy Cuberly
Been a while since Moon had these available.  Is that a spring I see between clevis and jam nut ?  What is width of the aluminum stock used to make clevis, think I could make this from some 2024 square stock pretty easy..
Allan Perret
AMA 302406
Slidell, Louisiana

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Adjustable elevator control linkage
« Reply #26 on: August 27, 2017, 03:20:37 PM »
Been a while since Moon had these available.  Is that a spring I see between clevis and jam nut ?  What is width of the aluminum stock used to make clevis, think I could make this from some 2024 square stock pretty easy..

No spring Allan, that's simply the thread on the rod end of the carbon pushrod.  2024 would work but 6061 would probably be easier to machine and would also work fine and is a little more available in general!  Would you like me to send you one of the clevises to look at.

Randy Cuberly
Randy Cuberly
Tucson, AZ

Offline Allan Perret

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Re: Adjustable elevator control linkage
« Reply #27 on: August 28, 2017, 09:48:30 AM »
No spring Allan, that's simply the thread on the rod end of the carbon pushrod.  2024 would work but 6061 would probably be easier to machine and would also work fine and is a little more available in general!  Would you like me to send you one of the clevises to look at.

Randy Cuberly
I can work from the picture, and one of my flying buddies has one to get dimensions from.  I had used 2024 for a custom 1/2a spinner project and the machinist that did the work for me said the 2024 was the nicest machining aluminum he had ever done.
Allan Perret
AMA 302406
Slidell, Louisiana

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Adjustable elevator control linkage
« Reply #28 on: August 28, 2017, 09:45:01 PM »
Yes, 6061-T6 is gummy. I much prefer 2024-T4 but I'll stick with the plastic Dubro ball links, they're cheap, easy and work great imho.


I can get a 1/2 turn on my plastic ball link which is .0125" of length. That's fine enough for me.

MM

I and quite a few other people I know have had a lot of difficulty with the DUbro ball links tightening up and causing sticky controls.  It seems to be caused by thermal cycling and doesn't happen immediately.
Not much you can do when it does happen except cut into the thing.  Grrrrrrrrr.  Unless of course you build take apart which I don't.  I may start doing that!

Randy Cuberly
Randy Cuberly
Tucson, AZ

Offline Doug Moisuk

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Re: Adjustable elevator control linkage
« Reply #29 on: August 28, 2017, 09:56:17 PM »
I put a hatch on one side and a hole for a ball driver on the other. So put the socket head bolt through from the hole side.  I just tape over the hole.
Doug Moisuk
MAAC 3360L

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