Author Topic: Acme Rocket Plane (Banjok's Buzz Bomb) (Read 15910 times)

Dennis Moritz · « **on:** April 25, 2012, 06:22:40 AM »

Uh oh.

Pete Camielle rest stop. Sunday, 9am, April 29. Onward to Reading, PA. A cautionary message from the Philly Flyers.

Douglas Ames · « **Reply #1 on:** April 25, 2012, 07:27:25 AM »

Where did you get those wheels! ps- bring a Fire extinguisher.

Tom Niebuhr · « **Reply #2 on:** April 25, 2012, 07:44:54 AM »

Leave it to Dan who has more fun and creativity than most.

I would like to see a close up the nose gear showing how he made it for the dual wheels.

There was a jet stunter at the '61, it was very impressive. Does anyone know who it was?

Warren Wagner · « **Reply #3 on:** April 25, 2012, 08:15:16 AM »

What is the servo for on Dan' plane? Fuel cut-off?

TIA

Cheers.

Warren Wagner

Steve Fitton · « **Reply #4 on:** April 25, 2012, 08:33:14 AM »

Now I see why Dan's new Nats plane isn't ready this season.

Dennis Moritz · « **Reply #5 on:** April 25, 2012, 09:04:32 AM »

The servo is for fuel cut off. One of those Windy controllers, I believe. Remote control. Television remote control. Dan has a magazine article about the 60s Jet Stunter. It inspired him to design and build the current plane. I think Dan talked to people who had seen the plane from the early sixties, but a lot of the specifics of how the engine/plane was set up has been hard to find. I don't think the plane currently has a pressure feed. That is in the works, if necessary. It's also thought that the original jet stunter used a fuel regulator. But there is contradictory information on that. Dan plans to attempt as much of the pattern as possible (no surprise), once the plane is sorted out. Note: there's an 18ounce tank hung out there in the nose. Power. A stock Dynajet.

We'll bring a fire extinguisher or two. Long time jet speed guys will be there to help. The field at Reading is black top. Nice field, nice club. We do a fun fly once or twice a year at Reading. Always memorable incidents.

REX1945 · « **Reply #6 on:** April 25, 2012, 09:29:02 AM »

Tom,

My first attempt at dual wheels was soft soldered. It would slowly drift
out of alignment.

In the second iteration I welded the secondary shaft to the primary with
a small wire-feed welder on the lowest setting.

Rex

dankar · « **Reply #7 on:** April 25, 2012, 10:23:38 AM »

I believe at one time Pulse jets were allowed in stunt but think they are baned now. Anyway good to see something different.

Darkstar1 · « **Reply #8 on:** April 25, 2012, 01:55:41 PM »

Awesome! The ultimate anti electric model!

Cant wait to see it at Muncie.

keith varley · « **Reply #9 on:** April 25, 2012, 02:06:37 PM »

Re;"Where did you get those wheels"

http://www.maxxprod.com/mpi/mpi-29.html

Looks as if no one is going to jump in here , so I'll contribute what I know.
I have the same ones on my Son-O-Sultan.They came from Maxxprod.com.They are beautiful, light and cheap, but the replaceable rubber tires that came on them , are too hard and unyeilding for nice soft landings on pavement , so I replaced the rubber with rubber cut from Dave Brown Light Flights. Just my version of perfection. Keith

Brett Buck · « **Reply #10 on:** April 25, 2012, 02:42:27 PM »

Quote from: Dennis Moritz on April 25, 2012, 09:04:32 AM

Note: there's an 18ounce tank hung out there in the nose. Power. A stock Dynajet.

Hmm, 18 oz of fuel in the nose, eh? Hope there's a lot of tail volume.

Brett

Dennis Moritz · « **Reply #11 on:** April 25, 2012, 07:13:03 PM »

Danny took the measurements for the tank from either the plans of the original or a photograph. It turned out to be 181/2 ounces in volume. Amazing. That includes the chicken hopper. Biggest chicken hopper ever. (Probably.)

Dennis Moritz · « **Reply #12 on:** April 25, 2012, 07:18:01 PM »

I'll mention the tail volume to Dan. Another reason for the shut off. I'm sure it will be short tanked for initial flights. I guess a short tank is still 10 ounces or so. Dan's aluminum Mig flies with an OS Jet that is about 80% the size of a Dynajet. I think that plane burns 6 or 8 ounces (?) during a flight. Longest flight I ever saw was 16 laps. Which means fuel consumption for the Dynajet will be proportionately greater. Since the goal is a full stunt pattern...

YakNine · « **Reply #13 on:** April 25, 2012, 07:23:26 PM »

I think he could probably sell that to north korea for big bucks as a WMD since their rockets don't seem to promising. T.J.

Brett Buck · « **Reply #14 on:** April 25, 2012, 07:29:47 PM »

Quote from: Dennis Moritz on April 25, 2012, 07:18:01 PM

I'll mention the tail volume to Dan.

I am sure he thought of that! It wouldn't surprise me if it did take 12-ish oz to get through a flight, more on MEK/PO (as opposed to gasoline), even more on methanol. But it's a pound+ of noseweight!

Brett

Joey Mathison 9806 · « **Reply #15 on:** April 25, 2012, 07:37:23 PM »

If he running the standard jet fuel that C/L speed uses 80% alky and 20% nitro this should give you around 90 to 120 sec of run time. If you are a big pulse jet fan we will be having another sport jet race at the nats this year at 5:00 pm on thursday 2 teams trying to go 100 laps the quickest.

Brett Buck · « **Reply #16 on:** April 25, 2012, 07:42:09 PM »

Quote from: Joey Mathison 9806 on April 25, 2012, 07:37:23 PM

If he running the standard jet fuel that C/L speed uses 80% alky and 20% nitro this should give you around 90 to 120 sec of run time

18 oz gives 90 seconds of run time? On a stock dyna-jet?

Brett

Joey Mathison 9806 · « **Reply #17 on:** April 25, 2012, 08:32:07 PM »

Brett if you go on you tube and do a search for britintexas48 you will see some video from whitter narrows park there is a class of jet that uses stock pulse jets we use 6 oz of fuel in this event for the most part. You can see for your self how long a stock jet will run on 6 oz of fuel. Just a tad over 30 seconds that is how i came up with the run time using the AMA jet fuel. Does that seam about to you? Joey.

Brett Buck · « **Reply #18 on:** April 25, 2012, 09:22:14 PM »

Quote from: Joey Mathison 9806 on April 25, 2012, 08:32:07 PM

Brett if you go on you tube and do a search for britintexas you will see some video from whitter narrows park there is a class of jet that uses stock pulse jets we use 6 oz of fuel in this event for the most part. You can see for your self how long a stock jet will run on 6 oz of fuel. Just a tad over 30 seconds that is how i came up with the run time using the AMA jet fuel. Does that seam about to you? Joey.

Oh, I admit I have virtually no experience, so I would defer to yours.

Ours ran around a minute on ~3-3 1/2 oz, but it was gasoline. 18 oz would give you about 5 1/2-6 minutes. I assume that that is much better, consumption-wise, than the AMA stock jet fuel.

Brett

wwwarbird · « **Reply #19 on:** April 25, 2012, 10:07:23 PM »

Quote from: Dennis Moritz on April 25, 2012, 09:04:32 AM

Note: there's an 18ounce tank hung out there in the nose. Power. A stock Dynajet.

I don't know, but to me that tank looks closer to 8 ounces than 18.

This looks like some great entertainment, wish I could see it!

Joey Mathison 9806 · « **Reply #20 on:** April 25, 2012, 10:10:56 PM »

Yes I agree with you Brett the gas is going to burn much longer than alky and nitro. I hope this bird makes it to muncie this year I would love to fly it. Dan really has some unique planes.

Brett Buck · « **Reply #21 on:** April 25, 2012, 10:13:49 PM »

Quote from: Joey Mathison 9806 on April 25, 2012, 10:10:56 PM

Yes I agree with you Brett the gas is going to burn much longer than alky and nitro. I hope this bird makes it to muncie this year I would love to fly it. Dan really has some unique planes.

And he is *grossly* underestimated as a stunt pilot.

Brett

Mike Palko · « **Reply #22 on:** April 25, 2012, 10:14:57 PM »

Quote from: Brett Buck on April 25, 2012, 09:22:14 PM

Oh, I admit I have virtually no experience, so I would defer to yours.

Ours ran around a minute on ~3-3 1/2 oz, but it was gasoline. 18 oz would give you about 5 1/2-6 minutes. I assume that that is much better, consumption-wise, than the AMA stock jet fuel.

Brett

That's the plan. Gasoline and depending on flight speed, 4 to 6 minutes of air time for the pattern.

Mike

John Hammonds · « **Reply #23 on:** April 26, 2012, 05:20:08 AM »

Awesome! I wish I could be there to see it fly. I would expect it to become quite lively near the end of the flight as all that weight is burned off. How much CG shift do you see between a full and empty tank?

TTFN
John.

Bill Mohrbacher · « **Reply #24 on:** April 26, 2012, 05:38:43 AM »

Will this be at Brodak's this summer?

Brett Buck · « **Reply #25 on:** April 26, 2012, 09:29:47 AM »

Quote from: John Hammonds on April 26, 2012, 05:20:08 AM

Awesome! I wish I could be there to see it fly. I would expect it to become quite lively near the end of the flight as all that weight is burned off. How much CG shift do you see between a full and empty tank?

TTFN
John.

I figure something upwards of 2.5"!!

Brett

Steve Fitton · « **Reply #26 on:** April 26, 2012, 09:41:43 AM »

If anybody could handle a massive cg shift in flight, it would be Dan. But I think thats getting ahead of the fact that getting the engine to stay lit for a pattern is, as some would say, a non-trivial issue. Having said that, Dan is nothing if not a determined sort of guy, but I would expect it might take a substantial period of time before you see a recognizable pattern out of that beast.

FLOYD CARTER · « **Reply #27 on:** April 26, 2012, 10:18:22 AM »

Gotta admire anyone who can get a Dynajet to run in a stunter! They are extremely fuel-pressure sensitive: any slight disturbance, such as any sudden pitch change, stops the jet. I would be interested in the fuel-delivery system.

Has anyone developed a muffler for a dynajet? (HA!!)

Floyd

Tom Niebuhr · « **Reply #28 on:** April 26, 2012, 10:32:13 AM »

"Has anyone developed a muffler for a dynajet? (HA!!)"

Ear Plugs

??

Mike Palko · « **Reply #29 on:** April 26, 2012, 11:10:30 AM »

The jet will start out quite nose heavy and if all the fuel is burned off land tail heavy. It is setup to favor a nose heavy condition. I'm not sure if Dan took measurements on this or not. 2.5" is a good guess. The tank turned out larger than the plans showed (The 1 in the 18 was left out. Minor detail!) so the CG shift is a bit more drastic than expected.

Fuel feed is a known issue. Dan found out just how critical it is with his Mig. If the conventional tank doesn't work a Perry pump will be the next step.

Will the jet be at Brodak's? I don't think it has left Dan's van since he finished it. It goes everywhere with him!

What would a jet be without the noise? A big NO to mufflers!

Mike

Michael Boucher · « **Reply #30 on:** April 26, 2012, 02:28:18 PM »

From the busy minds at Acme Rocket Plane Works, wonderful!

dennis lipsett · « **Reply #31 on:** April 26, 2012, 03:57:54 PM »

I wonder if he is going to have a problem with air obstruction to the engine

Dennis

Mike Mulligan · « **Reply #32 on:** April 26, 2012, 04:36:45 PM »

That's the biggest tube muffler I've ever seen. Where's the motor?

Absolutly awesome, wish I could see it fly!

Dennis Moritz · « **Reply #33 on:** April 26, 2012, 10:15:47 PM »

The perp himself.

Joey Mathison 9806 · « **Reply #34 on:** April 26, 2012, 10:32:19 PM »

I have never seen a stock Dyna jet that looks like the one on Dan's plane. i have a few red heads here at the house but none look like that. it looks more like an OS jet to me but any way you slice it still has fun just dripping all over it.

peabody · « **Reply #35 on:** April 27, 2012, 07:27:09 AM »

I understand that young Daniel is working on a Scale project....

Have fun, and sorry Chuck.....

Dennis Moritz · « **Reply #36 on:** April 27, 2012, 08:19:36 AM »

Dan Banjok does not own a computer. Rumors, gossip as well as the highly partisan and inane opinions within the Philly Flyer family are his sole source of information about what goes on here. Warning: do not show Dan Banjok Peabody's video. Dan's projects have already threatened our safety and sanity in many ways.

john e. holliday · « **Reply #37 on:** April 28, 2012, 07:58:07 AM »

Why wouldn't an inboard tank and outboard pulse jet work? Especially if moved more to the CG point.

Joey Mathison 9806 · « **Reply #38 on:** April 28, 2012, 03:04:28 PM »

Doc i think with an inboard tank and out board pulse jet that it would cut out lean on the up side of the wing over if it did make it to the top it would surely flood out on the down hill side of the wing over. the set up Dan has now is very clever and should work as is. just my guess and that is all just a guess.

Dennis Moritz · « **Reply #39 on:** April 29, 2012, 08:33:06 PM »

It flies. It works. It loops. Pops a decent corner. Did a half lap inverted (before cutting out.) On 87 octane it should fly 60 laps. Pictures coming in the next few days. Thanks to all the great folks at Reading. Bob Wilke and everyone else. The mad scientists(?) must have worked it for 4 or 5 hours. Better and better. Five successful flights. Mike Palko, I hope, will discuss specifics. Dan Banjok, as I said, has no computer. A wonderful fun day. A Dynajet stunt plane. Not since 1962.

Dennis Moritz · « **Reply #40 on:** April 30, 2012, 04:35:39 AM »

Pulse Jets are difficult. No accident that since their appearance on the model airplane scene (1950s) they've kept to the speed circles, where they fly CL, round and round, sticking as close as possible to a perfect facsimile of level flight. Anything but the most gradual shifts in attitude (and consequent stresses of the fuel head) mean instant shut off. If you ever make it to Muncie and tire of baking on the L-Pad drive to the netherworld of CL jet speed. Darkness surrounds the dedicated lot of castoffs. (It's dark because they have a tin roof observation shed that blocks the sun. Looks like a hobo shanty town.) Attempt, after attempt, then suddenly a model ignites and stays lit for seven hammering, noisy, laps, reaching near 200 miles an hour. The sights and sounds will awake you, demand your attention, cause even the heat induced comatose to yell and cheer, without being aware of what they are doing.

Dan Banjok's scale aluminum Mig, made (derived?) from a Japanese "kit" circa 1950 was as Dan aptly put it, more an "idea" than a kit. Everything had to be re-engineered or more accurately engineered for the first time, in order to work. The control system, for instance, had a spaghetti pushrod, and a sketchy plan for actuating the flying stab. New aluminum wings were made, and an ingenious method of stab twisting figured out and implemented. An equally dark art was the skills needed to make the OS Jet (approximately an 80% scale of a Dynajet) fire up and stay lit. Different fuels, tuning, learning the arcana of reeds regulating fuel flow, and so on. It seemed like a season or two of messing with until the scale aluminum bird would fly it's spectacular fire breathing noise with regularity. Given that, it is amazing to see this pulse jet stunter work as well as it did, first time out.

Dany has many ideas yet to go. He is confident that the fuel feeding issues can be solved so that the plane will accomplish most, if not all, of George's figures. As of now. It looks promising. Both Dan and Mike report that flight characteristics are flier friendly. Aerodynamically it works. The power system, in it's current straight forward simple version, works better than expected.

Derek Barry · « **Reply #41 on:** April 30, 2012, 06:30:58 AM »

Quote from: Brett Buck on April 25, 2012, 10:13:49 PM

And he is *grossly* underestimated as a stunt pilot.

Brett

Agreed!

He will, however, be judging us this year, his only request was that he was still allowed to "play" in the evenings.

Derek

Mike Palko · « **Reply #42 on:** April 30, 2012, 11:54:13 AM »

Sunday was a long day full of problems, but at the end of it Dan did something that may not have been done for 45+ years!

Even with all of the difficulty we were able to get 4 or 5 successful flights. The last flight went to me which I was very grateful for! What a feeling holding 70oz at 65mph putting out 140dbs..... Dan and I couldn't determine which is better. Being inside the circle or outside the circle. Both are truly amazing to see and feel. The jet has a whole new personality when it is 70' overhead in a wingover or on it's back inverted. Dan hopes to have all of problems sorted out by the Brodak Flyin and the Nat's.

The biggest problem of all may be a flying site within city limits! The Flying Dutchman graciously hosted the Philly Fliers at their Reading PA flying field. The site is on top of Mount Penn which makes for some funny air to say the least. The site has paved circles and due to the location is best used for speed and racing type airplanes.

Here are some of the specifics. It flies!

The initial flights used Prop/Methanol and a .054" metering jet. Using ~10oz of fuel per flight (due to premature shutoffs). We went though all of the available fuel very quickly. Our initial thoughts are that the head pressure is changing throughout the flight which is changing the mix. For those that don't know, jets have a very distinct sound when rich or lean. We always took off rich or just right and the jet cut lean in the air. The longest flights were in the 2-2.5min range.

Once out of Prop/Meth we went to 87oct pump gas (cheaper and more abundant anyway). It took a long time to get the changeover close enough to keep the jet running. We ended up with a .039" metering jet and a needle valve in the system to reduce fuel feed even further (.039" was the smallest jet available). Two flights were made on this setup. Nether setup worked better than the other although the 87oct may have made even more noise if that is possible??

Pictures and video should follow soon.

If Dan could post here I'm sure he would thank the whole club for all of their help, the Flying Dutchman for the flying site and most important, Bob Wilkie, for all of his jet knowledge. Without Bob not only would the MIG still be grounded, this project would not have been possible. The airplane has been dedicated to Gordon Thomas. Gordon was another east coast jet flier who was always there to lend a hand when needed. Gordon passed away several years ago and is still missed.

Mike

EddyR · « **Reply #43 on:** April 30, 2012, 03:05:22 PM »

Just some more information about jet stunt.

About 1956-57 Jerry Hickey from Binghamton NY had a Stunt Wagon that had crashed and the motor came out mounts and all. He took a Dynajet and mounted it on top of the plane,no rudder. He had a tank that kept the fuel under low pressure. A bladder that was held together with rubber bands. We used Amoco white gas for fuel. I did most of the pumping. ~^The back of the model and the stab was covered with asbestos. It was flown on several weekends and the longest flight was maybe a minute. Most flight were 15-30 seconds until the fuel system was figured out. The plane did loops and wingovers. The body was getting brittle from the heat and the back of the plane popped off and hung down but the plane flew until it ran out of fuel and it burst into flames as it landed. There was a few guys who fly jet speed in our area so he had a lot of experienced help to get it running.
Ed

kenneth cook · « **Reply #44 on:** April 30, 2012, 05:51:59 PM »

Hello Ed, first I want to give you a big round of applause for being the pump man. These pump guys don't get enough credit. Yesterday they killed ours. I don't think he's quite recovered and no one wanted to give him mouth to mouth. We rolled him into the woods and they broke out the compressed air. I had the labor intensive job of pushing the button on the battery box. Your finger can get really tired from that. My eardrums however didn't approve of that. All in all it was quite fascinating to see this plane going into the wingover. As I was watching Mike Palko fly I was feeling queasy as if the plane wasn't going to recover on the downside. The plane is quite large and to see it just WHOOOOOOSH up into a loop was just cool. That certainly made for a memorable day not to mention the bee that found its way into Mike's car as we were headed home. Ken

PJ Rowland · « **Reply #45 on:** April 30, 2012, 05:52:21 PM »

I actually looked up "Bankjok" in the dictionary this is what I saw:

Banjok
[Ban-jock] Show IPA adjective, banjok·er, Banj·est, noun, plural Banjoks
adjective
1.
mentally deranged; demented; insane.
2.
senseless; impractical; totally unsound: a banjok scheme.
3.
Informal . intensely enthusiastic; passionately excited: crazy about model aircraft.
4.
Informal . very enamored or infatuated (usually followed by about ): He was banjok'd about her.
5.
Informal . intensely anxious or eager; impatient: I'm banjok'd to try those new skis.

Mike Palko · « **Reply #46 on:** April 30, 2012, 07:36:15 PM »

Quote from: kenneth cook on April 30, 2012, 05:51:59 PM

Hello Ed, first I want to give you a big round of applause for being the pump man. These pump guys don't get enough credit. Yesterday they killed ours. I don't think he's quite recovered and no one wanted to give him mouth to mouth. We rolled him into the woods and they broke out the compressed air. I had the labor intensive job of pushing the button on the battery box. Your finger can get really tired from that. My eardrums however didn't approve of that. All in all it was quite fascinating to see this plane going into the wingover. As I was watching Mike Palko fly I was feeling queasy as if the plane wasn't going to recover on the downside. The plane is quite large and to see it just WHOOOOOOSH up into a loop was just cool. That certainly made for a memorable day not to mention the bee that found its way into Mike's car as we were headed home. Ken

Ken,

I thought we were using compressed air from the start?? haha I didn't realize the pump men got so tired..... Honestly though, I have been on the short end of the pump also. It looks so EASY, but for some reason it is so HARD.

Quote from: PJ Rowland on April 30, 2012, 05:52:21 PM

I actually looked up "Bankjok" in the dictionary this is what I saw:

Banjok
[Ban-jock] Show IPA adjective, banjok·er, Banj·est, noun, plural Banjoks
adjective
1.
mentally deranged; demented; insane.
2.
senseless; impractical; totally unsound: a banjok scheme.
3.
Informal . intensely enthusiastic; passionately excited: crazy about model aircraft.
4.
Informal . very enamored or infatuated (usually followed by about ): He was banjok'd about her.
5.
Informal . intensely anxious or eager; impatient: I'm banjok'd to try those new skis.

PJ,

You have one heck of a dictionary.

Mike

Mike Keville · « **Reply #47 on:** April 30, 2012, 10:26:30 PM »

I have met many interesting and fun-loving people in my 65-years of modeling, but none quite as fascinating or fun-loving as Dan Banjock. Met him only once ('07 Nats) but he is, as they say, Somethin' Else! Super guy! Wish he lived closer to Tucson. (That's a hint, Dan. Think about it!)

Brett Buck · « **Reply #48 on:** April 30, 2012, 10:28:39 PM »

Quote from: Mike Palko on April 30, 2012, 11:54:13 AM

Once out of Prop/Meth we went to 87oct pump gas (cheaper and more abundant anyway). It took a long time to get the changeover close enough to keep the jet running. We ended up with a .039" metering jet and a needle valve in the system to reduce fuel feed even further (.039" was the smallest jet available). Two flights were made on this setup. Nether setup worked better than the other although the 87oct may have made even more noise if that is possible??

Much "sharper" note on gasoline.

Brett

Russell Shaffer · « **Reply #49 on:** May 01, 2012, 07:21:42 PM »

I realize that it is a very high expense, but has anyone tried one of the genuine turbo jets? They seem to work pretty well for the RC guys, but it takes a crew to get them going and all they do is bore holes in the sky, but that is speed for you. $2400 or more is far beyond my modeling budget but maybe someone is considering it? I'm sure (?) that they are legal for jet speed?