Author Topic: About the 2021 Nats.... (Read 5140 times)

Dave_Trible · « **on:** December 04, 2020, 01:31:13 PM »

Greetings all. The AMA has asked me to submit to them our plan, schedule and fee proposal for the Nats by the end of the month. They plan to open registration on March 1st.
As most know, due to pandemic our Nats last year became a hodge-podge of special interest groups (SIGS) who either participated and others who pulled out. We went ahead with ours and I’m proud to say that to my knowledge we pulled off a pretty good event and nobody became ill who came. In fact we were only down maybe 20% in attendance. If it were to happen right now-well it wouldn’t give the dramatic uptick in Indiana and the whole Midwest. With the coming of vaccines we could see a greatly improved situation by Nats time and we can hope for a fairly normal contest.(fingers crossed). Whatever the case planning must go on.
Here’s the deal; I was greatly honored to be the Event Director last year but would really like for someone else to come forward this time. Ok- yeah I’d really like to fly. If someone would like to have the job now is a good time to say so and have more involvement in planning . Otherwise I will have to go ahead and do it my way because decisions need to be made soon.
If you are interested and would like to discuss it please reach out on my email:

VegasDave4@gmail.com

Thanks!

Stay safe

Dave Trible

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #1 on:** December 05, 2020, 01:08:04 PM »

I need to turn the hearing aids down. The crickets are deafening.

Dave

Shorts,David · « **Reply #2 on:** January 04, 2021, 01:50:35 PM »

Boy, the crickets are pretty loud. I guess I was taking a month off and never saw this thread come through. I hope you get a volunteer, and I hope no bird strikes keep me from attending this year. I'll be watching for more details in the future.
Question though: If someone flies in advanced, they fly on the same circles as the experts. Suppose an advanced flier, like Dennis Nunes, were to score high enough in qualifiers to make the top twenty in open, could he elect to move into the top twenty, rather than possibly winning the advanced prize? Does anyone ever do that? I know at the Reno air races, the first place silver winner can forego the trophy and move into the gold race. Similar idea.

Howard Rush · « **Reply #3 on:** January 04, 2021, 02:48:47 PM »

Conversely, if an Open contestant fails to make the Open top twenty, he could opt to fly in the Advanced finals. Be careful with these skill class ideas. Self-selected skill classes have led to greater participation, but if much thought goes into the philosophy, the system will collapse.

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #4 on:** January 04, 2021, 03:46:32 PM »

Quote from: Shorts,David on January 04, 2021, 01:50:35 PM

Boy, the crickets are pretty loud. I guess I was taking a month off and never saw this thread come through. I hope you get a volunteer, and I hope no bird strikes keep me from attending this year. I'll be watching for more details in the future.
Question though: If someone flies in advanced, they fly on the same circles as the experts. Suppose an advanced flier, like Dennis Nunes, were to score high enough in qualifiers to make the top twenty in open, could he elect to move into the top twenty, rather than possibly winning the advanced prize? Does anyone ever do that? I know at the Reno air races, the first place silver winner can forego the trophy and move into the gold race. Similar idea.

Could he elect to move into the Top 20? Yes, the NEXT year if he makes the cut. You cannot jump classes once entered. Then I think you'd find it difficult among your flying brethren to decide to go back to Advanced once you'd entered Open. (doubt you'd wish to anyway-you can BUY many trophies. You can't buy the experience garnered flying with expert fliers.) Inversely, I think if you had been flying Open and wanted to step down.....pretty tough unless you'd been out of the sport for quite a while and had lost many levels on your skills. I can't think of anyone ever doing that, at least on the Nats level.

Dave

Shorts,David · « **Reply #5 on:** January 04, 2021, 06:36:32 PM »

Okay, sounds good. I was just pondering the possibilities and if someone would rather be 20th in expert or 1st in advanced if given the option. I supposed I'd take the advanced trophy if it were me in that position.

Trostle · « **Reply #6 on:** January 04, 2021, 06:48:26 PM »

Quote from: Shorts,David on January 04, 2021, 06:36:32 PM

Okay, sounds good. I was just pondering the possibilities and if someone would rather be 20th in expert or 1st in advanced if given the option. I supposed I'd take the advanced trophy if it were me in that position.

I have been a judge at the Nats "several" times working on the Advanced circles as well as the Open circles. I have witnessed several times where the top Advanced fliers could have been in the top 20 semi finals. Is that more satisfying to the Advanced flier? Is that fair to the other Advanced fliers? Does that mean that some of the top 20 Open fliers should not have been in the Top 20 semi finals? What is fair in this game?

Keith

John Leidle · « **Reply #7 on:** January 04, 2021, 08:57:45 PM »

I've been saying for years " we can get rid of Advanced & Intermediate put everyone in Open ." Just a thought..
John L.

John Lindberg · « **Reply #8 on:** January 05, 2021, 07:50:36 AM »

I believe that in R/C Pattern flying, one had to wait at least ONE YEAR (without entering any contest) before re-entering into a lower class, could be different now, it's been over 20 years now. So, That seems like a reasonable rule, I think.

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #9 on:** January 05, 2021, 09:05:34 AM »

Quote from: John Leidle on January 04, 2021, 08:57:45 PM

I've been saying for years " we can get rid of Advanced & Intermediate put everyone in Open ." Just a thought..
John L.

John at the risk of showing age, I climbed the stunt rungs well before there were skill classes and BEGAN flying with the best pilots. I don't think I would want it any other way. However the skill classes are very well attended and popular, And for any who want to do as I did-nothing stopping them from doing so as long as they understand they will have to stay with that choice going forward. I AM afraid that as our numbers diminish there may come a day several years down the road where re-combining all classes will be done out of necessity. Let's not be in a big hurry for that.

Dave

Shorts,David · « **Reply #10 on:** January 05, 2021, 09:11:35 AM »

I flew advanced for the first time last two years ago. But I remember even as an intermediate being so excited to fly classic, because suddenly I was flying against advanced and expert pilots. I shared that same excitement at VSC. My point being, the system is pretty good right now; you still get your classes, but in certain instances you can still fly as an open contestant.

John Leidle · « **Reply #11 on:** January 05, 2021, 10:23:17 AM »

Quote from: Dave_Trible on January 05, 2021, 09:05:34 AM

John at the risk of showing age, I climbed the stunt rungs well before there were skill classes and BEGAN flying with the best pilots. I don't think I would want it any other way. However the skill classes are very well attended and popular, And for any who want to do as I did-nothing stopping them from doing so as long as they understand they will have to stay with that choice going forward. I AM afraid that as our numbers diminish there may come a day several years down the road where re-combining all classes will be done out of necessity. Let's not be in a big hurry for that.

Dave
I mentioned it because there is a little mention of going into another class back or forward on this thread also I've never been fan of Sandbaggers . I've seen a guy get around 485 in Advanced & throw a fit because the score was too low. I keep hearing the lack of judges, etc.
I'm not pushing the idea simply tossing it out there.
John L.

Bill Morell · « **Reply #12 on:** January 05, 2021, 01:37:59 PM »

Everyone should get a trophy..............

Brett Buck · « **Reply #13 on:** January 06, 2021, 12:01:46 PM »

Quote from: John Leidle on January 05, 2021, 10:23:17 AM

Dave
I mentioned it because there is a little mention of going into another class back or forward on this thread also I've never been fan of Sandbaggers . I've seen a guy get around 485 in Advanced & throw a fit because the score was too low. I keep hearing the lack of judges, etc.
I'm not pushing the idea simply tossing it out there.
John L.

I have a bit of a problem with throwing around accusations of "sandbagging". It has been clear to me for a long time that the skill classes are hopelessly broken and no longer serve the purpose they were intended to serve. We are down, effectively, to two skill classes, not four, with a HUGE range of skills and experience from top to bottom, particularly in Expert. I mean, we have David and Paul, and guys who have been flying competitively for ~2 years, in the same class.

I have suggested several possible solutions, but for the most part, people don't see the same problem and don't think we need to solve it. Fine - the CDs are going to solve it whether it gets solved in the rule book or not, because I know several that are going to combine BEG/INT (with some accommodation for the reduced pattern beginner), give out only first place trophies, or just not hold it at all.

I know that no one is going to pay much attention, but my personal opinion is that we shouldn't have Advanced as an official class at the NATs, until/unless we come up with reasonable and universally applicable advancement criteria to make the standards the same across the country and from local to the NATs. People have been working on that issue for 50ish years, with no real solution. Until then (which I think will never happen), I am extremely skeptical that you can tag anyone as a "sandbagger".

In your example, however, 485 is in the middle of the suggested Advanced average score range from the rule book, and while I would never promote whining about scores, you could always argue about 10-15 points, which is STILL in the rule book suggested ranges.

Brett

Shorts,David · « **Reply #14 on:** January 06, 2021, 04:42:11 PM »

Advanced is a little funny, because at the end of the day you can say, Yay, I was the best of the guys who are half decent. Now, don't get me wrong, I sincerely, sincerely hope to get to say that in the future when I come home with a first in advanced for the first time. If I come home with a bunch of them, I will move into expert and join the ranks of those who may not get trophies in PA classes anymore. But, that doesn't rule out trophies in Classic, etc., and, if I'm really trophy starved, I'll just have to get good enough to beat Brett someday

. Or, persuade people at the large meets to give trophies out to fifth perhaps (if I were trophy starved and we had maybe 20 experts).

Now, contrast that with open only class. I still do the same thing, try to beat my buddies, try to get better, I just don't have certain "carrots" to keep me motivated along the way, such as advanced class, or even intermediate class. I'm still in favor of carrots, as long as they are crispy and not stewed. A stewed carrot is: everybody gets a prize. Yuck, stewed carrots.

I can see stuff getting funny when us west coasters head up north, or down south, or even cross country and now advanced in one district is expert in another, and possibly expert in another district is only advanced in a different one. That's when "sandbagger" gets thrown around. But this last year's nat's scores show three pretty evenly matched guys at the top of advanced and it could have gone either way from what I hear. Well, you're right, the system ain't perfect, but maybe still slightly better than not...at least locally.

And, while I'm going, I could see myself head across country for a chance at an advanced trophy at the nats. If we are all in open then I'll just wait until the next west coast nats*, then I'll gladly fly open just for the fun of it.

John Leidle · « **Reply #15 on:** January 06, 2021, 04:52:10 PM »

Opinions vary.
John L.

Shorts,David · « **Reply #16 on:** January 06, 2021, 05:45:03 PM »

Quote from: John Leidle on January 04, 2021, 08:57:45 PM

I've been saying for years " we can get rid of Advanced & Intermediate put everyone in Open ." Just a thought..
John L.

I think we would all agree, that whichever method gets more fliers to the field is the one we would choose. Maybe you're right. VSC sure packed them in.

John Leidle · « **Reply #17 on:** January 06, 2021, 06:29:22 PM »

Hi David,
Just seems like a bunch of trouble to keep some people quiet( happy) not many advanced fliers show up locally anymore then I hear yesterday about people should, could or shouldn't or cannot go back & forth between classes. I don't know what these guys are afraid of.
John L.

Jared Hays · « **Reply #18 on:** January 06, 2021, 07:47:24 PM »

I am one that would prefer to fly in Open class even though I would pry not make the top 20 "if" I were to attend the NATS, however since my primary plane is an ARC I cannot fly in Open as I understand, only Advanced. One time at a local-ish contest way back when I had successfully learned the complete pattern and won the intermediate class the year prior, I was trying to decide if I should fly Intermediate again or move up to Advanced. The contest director said to my face well you can't out fly such and such and they are in advanced class so you should stay in intermediate. Really rubbed me the wrong way, especially because the "such and such" person really wasn't that great of a flyer and my intermediate scores was as good or better than his advanced scores with the same judges lol. So my reply was oh really... then in that case put me in Expert. I would rather finish last in Expert than 1st in Advanced. Since then I have never entered anything less than expert. I want to know where I'm at compared to the best. Also leads into BOM rule and appearance points. To me the quality of the flying is more important than the "prettyness" of the plane, however I can completely appreciate the craftsmanship and understand the added points for it. For example I also partake in the hobby of drag racing and a lot of times the prettiest of cars on the property is not the one to worry about getting lined up next to, Its the ones that look like they are ready for the scrap yard that will get ya lol. Function over form so to speak... anyway I am rambling Ill shut up now.

Paul Walker · « **Reply #19 on:** January 07, 2021, 12:00:38 PM »

Well Dave,
with no volunteers, maybe we should cancel the Nat's this year!

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #20 on:** January 07, 2021, 02:51:04 PM »

Paul it sure is quiet. I’ll say this; since all the problems AMA had in choosing to run or not last year and then part of the SIGS pulling themselves out (and a few going around their group directly to AMA saying THEY would run it and the heat over that). AMA seems to want to just leave it up the each SIG whether to go or not. If it has to be me again, unless we get some MAJOR improvements with the virus I’m in mind right now to cancel. If so I won’t wait till the last minute like last year. May 1st or before for the answer.

Dave

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #21 on:** January 07, 2021, 05:22:07 PM »

Here's a little more to think about: Will the CL Worlds (2020) happen? If they don't will we have a Team Trials for the 2022 Worlds? Will this team we now have still go in 2022 to the 2020 Worlds and will any NEW team selected in 2021 be actually for the 2024 World Team? Pass the aspirin......

Dave

JHildreth · « **Reply #22 on:** January 07, 2021, 09:30:14 PM »

Dave,

In regards to the world's team, my opinion is that the current team should be the team that flies in the next world's championship whenever it is held. After that a team trials can be held to choose the next team. In other words, no new team trial until after the current team has competed.

As for the 2021 Nats (or any other contest for that matter), I will not be attending any until I receive the vaccine and there is a significant reduction in both the daily case rate and death rate throughout the country. I don't expect either of these rates will achieve significant reductions until late summer or in the fall. I certainly hope I am wrong, but at this point I don't see it happening sooner.

Joe

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #23 on:** January 08, 2021, 05:35:11 AM »

Joe that's about where I am at with the virus. We were extremely lucky last year but now realize that at that time this thing had barely started. I know of at least four personally who have succumbed to this scourge and very many more who have had it and survived. ( not sure but maybe even myself last February before we really knew what it was). Now with a newer more aggressive strain and hospitals maxed out and turning some away, as well as the vaccine programs struggling, I too can't envision great improvement until later in the summer. It isn't helping our case the Nats was moved a month earlier for us. I'd be surprised if the RC Worlds at Muncie happens. Few from outside the US would be thrilled to come here right now-or even allowed to. This prevented our friends in Canada from coming in 2020. We had a goodly number who normally come stay home last time and I'd think quite a few more will this year. We also BARELY found enough judges, tabulators and helpers. I've already told AMA I'm not sure I can pull together enough help to put the show on and that itself could determine what we do.
The GOOD NEWS is that with the vaccines, I'm sure by NEXT year things will be much brighter and more back to normal. Let's all be optimistic and hope!

Dave

Joseph Patterson · « **Reply #24 on:** January 08, 2021, 11:31:22 AM »

Dave,
I sent you a PM
Doug

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #25 on:** January 23, 2021, 07:00:45 PM »

I wanted to share some developments.
First, I am still unsure about whether this Nats for us will happen. If the virus situation isn't much better then I think we will have to sit this one out. On the other hand, if the vaccination situation really gets rolling and the majority of us who would be in the first two phases of vaccinations could be vaccinated by early May then it should be reasonably safe for us to proceed. I would hope most of you will be looking to get your shots at first opportunity and be ready to travel. In any case pre-planning to a great extent will still need to be done and anyone willing to step up and help should be letting us know. I need to say there are a good number who come regularly for years (or decades) but haven't taken a turn to help in some way. If you want our hobby and more pointedly our Nats to continue, many more will need to pick up and help us carry the load. I will say I do not intend to be the Event Director after this year so perhaps we need to start a lottery...... On a more positive note: I received a message today from Mark Overmeir and he WILL return this year as the Head Judge. He has already begun to contact a few on his list of potential judges so be looking for him in your mailbox.
Also I am proud to announce there WILL be an Assistant Director and a ceiling breaker at that. Michelle Lee, Todd's wife, has volunteered to help me at the helm. I am all for and about getting our ladies involved to help fill our shortfalls in volunteers. Perhaps one might even be ED at some point down the road. They have already filled every other role with excellence. I have also heard from Doug and Kathleen Patterson. To my joy, they are planning to be back and no doubt Doug will do his thing as a judge and also the Classic and Old Time events. Kathleen will fill a CRITICAL role as a tabulator.
Now for a little round table discussion. I've been getting some input for how we COULD deal with running a Nats when we fall short the help required. These ideas wouldn't likely be used once we get past the virus and back to 'more normal' but are things to think about in a dire situation. I would like to hear any thoughts you might have on these ideas and perhaps something you've thought of.

1. If we are really short judges and running the normal four circles isn't practical we COULD cut down to two circles by (just one time) revert to the AMA format-Junior, Senior and Open age classes and not PAMPA classes. Again this would be JUST once for an unusual situation.
2. We could get a waiver from AMA and just pull test ONE TIME. All airplanes, lines and handles would receive a tag once pulled and and not require pulling again unless changed. Actually the pull test itself is more damaging to the equipment than flying. At the Nats level most pilots are sharp enough to maintain their equipment and wouldn't risk losing their airplane with unsafe lines, etc.
3. We could run it as an FAI event. This would eliminate appearance judging (and yes likely BOM).

OK. There are some things to chew on. An easy way to avoid something above is to volunteer, making anything different unnecessary.

For Now,

Dave

Howard Rush · « **Reply #26 on:** January 23, 2021, 07:34:55 PM »

Quote from: Dave_Trible on January 23, 2021, 07:00:45 PM

1. If we are really short judges and running the normal four circles isn't practical we COULD cut down to two circles by (just one time) revert to the AMA format-Junior, Senior and Open age classes and not PAMPA classes.

Look at your notes from last year. Some effort went into determining what to do for any combination of judges and contestants.

I can do my usual stuff. Please send me Michelle's email address, and I'll send her some material.

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #27 on:** January 23, 2021, 07:40:22 PM »

Quote from: Howard Rush on January 23, 2021, 07:34:55 PM

Look at your notes from last year. Some effort went into determining what to do for any combination of judges and contestants.

I can do my usual stuff. Please send me Michelle's email address, and I'll send her some material.

Yes Howard I know you did. I really was putting out there some ideas others brought for discussion. Don’t have her email handy but will get it to you.

Dave

John Leidle · « **Reply #28 on:** January 23, 2021, 08:33:25 PM »

Thanks for everything Dave.
John L.

Derek Barry · « **Reply #29 on:** January 24, 2021, 06:00:50 AM »

"3. We could run it as an FAI event. This would eliminate appearance judging (and yes likely BOM)."

Ummm, no! Why would you even suggest this??

Derek

Derek Barry · « **Reply #30 on:** January 24, 2021, 06:14:22 AM »

The only reason to propose using the FAI process at our Nats would be if we were going to combine the Team Trials and the Nats. This is something that I have suggested in the past, but not using FAI rules. I would insist on using AMA rules, mainly, because they are far superior. I really do not understand your logic here Dave.

Derek

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #31 on:** January 24, 2021, 07:25:58 AM »

Derek actually none of the above came from me but rather other ‘name brand’ flyers. I wanted to put the ideas out there to allow discussion. As far as FAI I do wish we had more FAI events around to make others more familiar with both flying and judging it. In this case I believe the idea was to eliminate some manpower needs by not doing appearance judging/processing and offering a means to operate fewer circles. However I know this is treading sacred ground at the Nats.

Dave

Derek Barry · « **Reply #32 on:** January 24, 2021, 03:26:26 PM »

Quote from: Dave_Trible on January 24, 2021, 07:25:58 AM

Derek actually none of the above came from me but rather other ‘name brand’ flyers. I wanted to put the ideas out there to allow discussion. As far as FAI I do wish we had more FAI events around to make others more familiar with both flying and judging it. In this case I believe the idea was to eliminate some manpower needs by not doing appearance judging/processing and offering a means to operate fewer circles. However I know this is treading sacred ground at the Nats.

Dave

In FAI you still have to process airplanes. Having a couple guys standing there assigning appearance points doesn't slow it down enough to justify eliminating one of the major requirements in our event. "The program" already takes into account, participation, and judge totals when assigning the number of circles.

Derek

Dennis Nunes · « **Reply #33 on:** January 26, 2021, 08:24:48 AM »

I just read a report (https://www.newsweek.com/brood-10-cicadas-map-u-s-states-insects-2021-1564207) that the cicadas are to emerge in late May and June. Will Muncie be bombarded with them?

Dennis

Dennis Moritz · « **Reply #34 on:** January 27, 2021, 03:35:27 AM »

Leave rules alone. Besides, when you see Open fliers fall back to Advanced at the NATS, you have the opportunity to ask them why. And laugh. We are too old to engage in an endless reconsideration of the rules. The debate will be sad (and funny) exposing wide spread deterioration of mental faculties.

Doug Moon · « **Reply #35 on:** January 29, 2021, 08:54:36 AM »

Quote from: Dave_Trible on January 23, 2021, 07:00:45 PM

1. If we are really short judges and running the normal four circles isn't practical we COULD cut down to two circles by (just one time) revert to the AMA format-Junior, Senior and Open age classes and not PAMPA classes. Again this would be JUST once for an unusual situation.

Cutting to two circles is a viable option but you would only really need to do this if you are short judges. I understand Howards program can make changes on the fly but if you know ahead of time your number of judges you can set the number of circles and be done with it.

Quote from: Dave_Trible on January 23, 2021, 07:00:45 PM

2. We could get a waiver from AMA and just pull test ONE TIME. All airplanes, lines and handles would receive a tag once pulled and and not require pulling again unless changed. Actually the pull test itself is more damaging to the equipment than flying. At the Nats level most pilots are sharp enough to maintain their equipment and wouldn't risk losing their airplane with unsafe lines, etc.

We should not make this a one time deal on the pull test but an EVERYTIME deal. Pull testing at the nats is so way out of control. We monitor our own rules. We should make this standard. One pull test requires one pit boss. And it can be anyone really since its a one time deal. A couple of competitors can even switch out and run it for the one time it has to be done. If you dont have a way to weigh each plane, time constraints, people available etc. have the pilot tell the pull tester the weight. We trust our entrants to be honest on the form they sign about the BOM we can trust them to be honest on their weight...ahem, ahem...cough cough...

but seriously people at this stage are really going to do the right thing when it comes to safety.

Quote from: Dave_Trible on January 23, 2021, 07:00:45 PM

3. We could run it as an FAI event. This would eliminate appearance judging (and yes likely BOM).

Um yeah, NO!! THIS IS NOT AN OPTION! If you do this then you are not having the US Nationals event 322. Event 322 Open at the nationals is what crowns the US national champion. Event 322 requires the BOM and that is what makes it what it is today and holds the tradition of the event. If you dont have BOM then you dont have 322. I spent alot of time talking with Ted about this over the years around the turn of the century it finally dawned on me what that really means. Without the BOM 322 is no longer in play and you are just running another skill class event. Nothing against those but that's what it would be. If you are low on judges for appearance just have the circle judges judge each plane at the start of each flight in round one and assign the points on the score sheet. No big deal. It's done all the time locally. Then the tabulators put that in the program for that flier and it's done. Then by Wednesday afternoon the pilots are to turn in their vote for the concourse at the tabulators table. Award that trophy at the start of Top20 day at the pavillion.

Running an FAI event will not make it easier and will not need less people. Just different.

Howard Rush · « **Reply #36 on:** January 29, 2021, 01:29:04 PM »

Quote from: Doug Moon on January 29, 2021, 08:54:36 AM

Cutting to two circles is a viable option but you would only really need to do this if you are short judges. I understand Howards program can make changes on the fly but if you know ahead of time your number of judges you can set the number of circles and be done with it.

The program has how many circles to use for any number of contestants figured out and advertised before the contest. A judge shortage is a new wrinkle, but we expected a judge shortage last year and came up with solutions for (most) any number of judges and any number of contestants. It picks the number of qualifications-round circles based on number of contestants, number of judges, and the minimum number of judges you want per circle. Then it automatically does the seeding, prints the posters, prints the scoresheets, etc. I'll send you two simulations: the first one for a sufficient number of judges, and the second for a reduced number. Tell me what you think of these. The simulation files are too big to post here, but I'll email them to anybody who's interested.

FAI? Sure. I'm FAI-ready. We could have stunt in the soybean field for added authenticity.

Howard Rush · « **Reply #37 on:** January 29, 2021, 01:53:16 PM »

Quote from: Doug Moon on January 29, 2021, 08:54:36 AM

If you are low on judges for appearance just have the circle judges judge each plane at the start of each flight in round one and assign the points on the score sheet. No big deal. It's done all the time locally. Then the tabulators put that in the program for that flier and it's done.

There are always people--even some flight judges--who are standing around during processing and can be drafted to judge. These people can see all the planes together and compare them to one another. Judges need walk only a few feet to get to the next airplane. Everybody gets to see all the pretty planes together. Then Dave takes the scores back to his hotel room and enters the list into the program. Nobody has to mess with appearance points after that unless somebody changes planes. If you do appearance judging on the circle, the judges could have to walk across the circle to see the airplane, they see only one plane in an eight-minute period, and the judges not doing the appearance judging stand around. The tabulator workload is increased by 6%. The worst part is that, because each circle has different judges, you would have different judges judging airplanes.

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #38 on:** January 29, 2021, 02:21:41 PM »

As we have it now appearance will be done exactly as last year, and the same judges.

Dave

Doug Moon · « **Reply #39 on:** February 04, 2021, 08:43:01 AM »

Quote from: Howard Rush on January 29, 2021, 01:29:04 PM

FAI? Sure. I'm FAI-ready. We could have stunt in the soybean field for added authenticity.