A Very Unexpected Discovery, B-36 Peacemaker

[wwwarbird]

 I was running an out of town errand today over to Fairmont Minnesota and on the way into town noticed their nice little airport. Whenever time allows I'll usually try to stop in at these small town airports and snoop around, just because you never know what you might come across.
 
 I walked into the FBO and immediately noticed a few neat old R/C models hanging overhead in the lobby/waiting area. There was a .60 size Goldberg Super Chipmunk and a couple of J-3 Cubs, one of them on floats. Kind of the normal ho-hum stuff. Then I stopped, turned around and looked up behind me, and about fell over when I saw what was hanging on the wall over the vending machine area, an 88 inch span B-36 Peacemaker C/L model!!! I nearly bowed down to the floor in front of it!

 I'm figuring it was built way back when from one of the old KYO kits. It looks like it was a flyer at one time, but then appears to have recieved some type of refinish before ending up on the wall at the airport. This is the first one of these I've ever seen in the flesh and I just thought it was the coolest thing to come across and get a chance to check out. Heck, I'd like to pull it down and fly it!

 AND, I even had my camera along...

[wwwarbird]

 Some more detail pics...

[Mark Scarborough]

that is awesome,,

[Clint Ormosen]

Way cool. Too bad the engines are out of it.

[EddyR]

It looks like the wing tips come off just outside the last motor.
Ed

[wwwarbird]

It looks like the wing tips come off just outside the last motor.
Ed

 Yep, but it still looks like a good five plus footer with them off. Definitely a model designed before minivans.

[Steve_Pollock]

 ... and from the Pima Air Museum ...

[KenP51]

At 15#s the line pull had to be crazy

[bill bischoff]

Anybody notice the insignia on the wing?

[Brett Buck]

Anybody notice the insignia on the wing?

  OOPS!

    Brett

[Andrew Borgogna]

OK guys I'll bite what is it you see that I don't.  Having served 4 years in the USAF, they look like standard Air Force markings to me.  I know I am going to regret this...
Andy

[skyshark58]

The star is supposed to point forward! Maybe it is because the engines are backwards
                                                                                                                                  Mike

[John Stiles]

Some heathern evil-doer stole the engines!

[KenP51]

I tried to work out the line pull, but I think my numbers are goofy.
I will start a thread in the Engineering board.
http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?topic=24887.0
I get over a hundred #s at 50 mph on 70 foot lines
ouch

[Marvin Denny]

  My B-29 was an 84.5 inch span. Eureka kit with four Enya 19s without throttles, and weighed 8#.  With all four running in a rich two, it pulled me around like a little puppy dog until I did some MAJOR trim operations.  After a lot of trim work, I could fly it with one hand.  I still have some old 8MM movie film of it flying.  I'm going to have that old film transferred to cd or dvd .  I'm working on a new one now.

  Bigiron

[larry richards]

I was checking my KYO B-36 and noticed it has a 112 1/2" (9.373') Wingspan and a 78" fuselage length.  I had no idea that they made a smaller kit of the B-36.  Larry

[Double Deuce]

As a former Crew Chief on these Beasts, I can attest that Decals were not the only things that were, on occasion, installed backwards.

Double Deuce

[wwwarbird]

 HA, I hadn't noticed the upside down insignia. That really suprises me too because that detail is a BIG peeve of mine and I hate it when guys mess it up. I must have been to much in awe of the sheer coolness of the model!

 Larry,

 If your bigger one is a KYO kit then maybe this one wasn't, I just took a guess at it. I wonder what it is then, maybe Eureka? Plans built?

[Larry Cunningham]

Awesome model..

When I first moved to New Mexico in 1957, I saw a real B-36 flying out of Holloman AFB. It was an incredible sight, so large it looked like it was flying too slow. And the growl of those engines was memorable.

There was a rumor that one of the parking areas had concrete weak enough that they towed the B-36 continuously at a very slow speed on it to avoid damage. I heard this rumor from my uncle, who was working at Holloman as a civil servant at the time.. He may have been pulling my leg, I was 10 years old at the time.

L.

"Stung by the splendor of a sudden thought." -Robert Browning

[Larry Cunningham]

I tried to work out the line pull, but I think my numbers are goofy.
I will start a thread in the Engineering board.
http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?topic=24887.0
I get over a hundred #s at 50 mph on 70 foot lines
ouch

I seem to recall at 55 mph on 70' lines, the centripetal force works out to ~3 gs (?? - CRS). Equation for centripetal force is F = mV^2/R. No need to deal directly with mass in English units (slugs?), force is weight x gs.

So I don't believe over 100 lbs is correct.

<<BTW, wouldn't that model be an ideal candidate for electric power?>>

L.

"Don't compromise yourself. You're all you've got." -Janis Joplin

[KenP51]

my method was way wrong
This is the correct way. I won't tell you what I did
.0668 x lbs x mph squared / line length in feet. This is more correct and yields a more manageable 37.5 lbs of pull at 50 mph on 70 foot lines.

[Marvin Denny]

<<BTW, wouldn't that model be an ideal candidate for electric power?>>

[/quote]

   There is an electric B-36 being built (RC) that is 257 inch wingspan.
  now THAT is a BIG model
  It can be found on the RCGroups forum--aidcraft,electric--airplanes,  then to Giant scale models,   then to 257" B-36   blah blah ... .

   Kyo and Eureka built at least three different sizes of the B-29, so I would think that possibly they did the same with the B-36

  Bigiron

[larry richards]

Thanks Marve for that info.  Looks like I have the BIG ONE! 

[wwwarbird]

 It would be interesting to know what kit this one was built from. As a clue I do recognize the style of wheels on it, I even have some, but I don't know if they are the kind that came in the KYO or the Eureka kits. Since they were both from Japan maybe each brand of kit used the same wheels? I dunno.

[George Waters]

I saw one of these fly in 1958 and 59 at Kirby park Wilkes Barre Pa. I have some pictures of it in flight. The one i saw had 6 fox 19 engines on it and was almost ten feet in wingspan. It was really a sight for a 11 or 12 yr old to see. There was also a 7 ft b 29 that flew that day. I have an 84 in b 50 kit and a 60 in c 47  that I got while at Pleiku rvn. I keep taking it out and looking at it, but it hasn't built itself yet so maybe I'd better get moving.  George

[John Fitzgerald]

<<BTW, wouldn't that model be an ideal candidate for electric power?>>



   There is an electric B-36 being built (RC) that is 257 inch wingspan.
  now THAT is a BIG model
  It can be found on the RCGroups forum--aidcraft,electric--airplanes,  then to Giant scale models,   then to 257" B-36   blah blah ... .

   Kyo and Eureka built at least three different sizes of the B-29, so I would think that possibly they did the same with the B-36

  Bigiron

With 257 inch wingspan, the FAA would probably consider that RC model a UAV.

[Dennis Leonhardi]

You're such a kid Wayne in Albert Lea, I'm old enough that I probably saw that model fly!  There were a number of very active control line flyers in that area back in the '50s.  Many had served in Korea and/or Japan, and came back with several of the old Japanese scale models and early OS engines.

I well remember visiting in Minneapolis back in that era when the real thing flew over ... man, for an instant it was like it sudenly turned to night!  Those things were loud as well as huge.


Dennis
 

[EddyR]

George
 I have not heard that name ,Kirby Park since we flew combat contest there in the 50's &60"s. That the park where the longest homerun hit of all time landed. Ruth over 650' Also home of the T-square .
Ed

[KenP51]

Links to some B-36 vids
B-36 Peacemaker - SAC Video


B-36 at Warbirds over Delaware 2009


B-36 Peacemaker


Inside The Convair B-36 Peacemaker


1956 Featherweight B-36 Reaches New Heights


Convair B-36 Peacemaker makes low pass over Fort Worth neighborhood

[john e. holliday]

Thanks for the videos.   I remember Jimmy Stewart in that movie.  One of the great ones.   First Chicopee NATS, watched the C-5's taking off and landing.   Looked like they were not fast enough to fly.  Would have loved to see the B-36 in the air.

[Steve Scott]

My dad was stationed at Biggs AFB in El Paso, TX during the late '50s when I was a first grader.  I can still remember the effect when one of these roared overhead.  Literally rattled every dish in the cupboards.  Our teacher was in the process of explaining the doppler effect when one passed overhead.  She told us to listen to how long the sound lasted (and the change of the sound) when it was flying away from us vs. coming toward us.

Pretty effective lesson.

I have "Strategic Air Command" featuring Jimmy Stewart recorded on my DVR when it appeared on AMC channel years back.  You can even hear the brakes squeal when the beast is taxiing on the ground.  Spectacular aerial scenes as well.

BTW, Wikipedia notes Steward spent much of his youth building model airplanes in his basement.  Of course, we also know him as a B-24 pilot during WWII.  He also accompanied a B-52 crew as a non-duty observer during a mission over North Vietnam in '66.

[John Leidle]

    Hey Steve,  that was a good movie & thanks again for showing it to me & for your hospitallity. I try to describe Blue Ray &  a nice video setup to peoplle & use that movie as a refferance.
  John

[W.D. Roland]

I have one of these old Jap kits with the sprung gear and aluminum cowls. No MFG name on box or plans!
If memory is working it is the Invader (B-26???) One day will attack it with glue!

Also have this B-29 (picture)that we flew in 1976 when our local club was part of the City's Bicentennial Celebration.
4 diffrent brands and 3 sizes of engines...what ever was handy to finish it up! Never did have all 4 running at the same time,that out board New ENYA .19 was to hard on my fingers!
Span is right at 8ft.

Hope to restore and fly again---one day

[Trostle]

This is to add to the discussion on the pull of these large multi-engine scale CL models.

I can remember that Earl Carpenter had a Lockheed Electra.  It had 4 Super Tiger engines.  If I remember right, those engines were .29's but they could have been .23's.  The model hung in the T&A hobby shop for several years and there was a picture with Carpenter holding it on the cover of a Flying Models magazine years ago.  (I do not have that magazine.)  I saw it fly on two separate occasions.  The first time I saw it fly, it would literally pull Carpenter from the center of the circle with his feet flat on the ground and sliding across the pavement until he throttled down.  Another time, he had a harness around his upper torso and shoulders with straps on his back.  His helper held on to those straps to keep him from sliding across the pavement.  Impressive.

Keith

[KenP51]

I had posed a question on line pull on this site and another. It seemed that the pull of such a large model would be crazy. So I tried to calculate it. With correct formula I did get crazy high pull numbers. I made a plane with a piped .60 that just wore me out to fly. So the question had personal reason.
To Quote A reply from the other site by Dean Pappas  "As it turns out, the centripetal force calculation is interesting enough, but does not answer the question.
In general, line tension is dictated by aerodynamic trim: rudder offset, line rake, fuselage side area ... in combination with the plane's mass.
Speed ships pull far far less than the centripetal calculation because they are trimmed to fly in a circle just a tiny bit larger than the lines dictate.
If trimmed to fly straight, the drag caused by the outward lift would murder their top speeds.
Meanwhile the Stunt guys are often looking to trim for more than the centripetal force."
So I suppose even some of these large planes could perhaps be tamed down a bit as regards pull.

[wwwarbird]

 Keith,

 The Lockheed Electra that I know was a twin. I Googled for photos and also came up with a P-3 Orion type variant, was this also called an "Electra"?

 On the whole "pull" subject, I would think that if the pull on one of these models was that extreme that a guy could ease it up to a comfortable level with an adjustable rudder. If someone has a good B-36 kit to donate I'll test it and post the findings.

[KenP51]

Keith,

 The Lockheed Electra that I know was a twin. I Googled for photos and also came up with a P-3 Orion type variant, was this also called an "Electra"?

 On the whole "pull" subject, I would think that if the pull on one of these models was that extreme that a guy could ease it up to a comfortable level with an adjustable rudder. If someone has a good B-36 kit to donate I'll test it and post the findings.

Just build something with a gasser 30-55cc?    That arta yank you around a bit 

[Trostle]

Keith,

 The Lockheed Electra that I know was a twin. I Googled for photos and also came up with a P-3 Orion type variant, was this also called an "Electra"?

(Clip)

Lockheed developed a four turboprop powered airliner called the Electra in the late 50's.  It entered airline service in 1959 including American, Eastern, Braniff and others including airlines around the world.  It had significantly better fuel efficiency than the passenger jet airliners of that time and had a cruising speed of over 370 mph.  In September 1959, one crashed and several months later, another also crashed.  The cause of the crashes was wing structural failure resulting from a violent whirling gyroscopic oscillation of the propellers.  By the time the problem was fixed, Boeing had launched its 727 with improved field perfomance and the airlines were by then committing to all jet power.  The airlines did not buy any more Electras and production ended in 1960.  The Electra remained in commercial service around the world through the 80's.  In 1957, the Navy issued a specification for a new ASW aircrat to replace the P2V Neptune.  Lockheed responded with a proposal based on the Electra and that became the P3 Orion.  The Eelectra and the Orion basically have the same airframe though the Orion's structure has been revised to handle the greater weight and military strength requirement.  The first Navy P3 was fown in November 1959.

An interesting side note is that the Electra/Orion have the same basic wing design as the C-130 though the C-130 is a high wing aircraft and the Electra/Orion has a low wing.

Keith

[wwwarbird]

 The "Trostlepedia" strikes again. Thanks for the interesting info Keith.

[larry richards]

If I remember right, Lockheed called it the L-188 / Electra II.   Braniff also used the II after the name on a few of their birds. 

[Jim Kraft]

When I was a kid, I saw one fly over our house very low in either 49 or 50. We lived in Kansas City at that time in the Roeland Park area. I was 8 or 9 years old and was duly impressed by anything that flew, let alone a plane that huge with six engines.

[Hoss Cain]

//SNIP//
1956 Featherweight B-36 Reaches New Heights
//SNIP//

KenP51, Thanks much for that link. It brought back memories. For the life of me I cannot remember the code name of the operation where these lightweights operated under while flying out of Ramey AFB, Puerto Rico. They were well ahead of the U-2 days and they droned all over the Soviet Union. I have tried to a number of times, but maybe it was so secret that it just faded!!! 

When I was in the B-47, I had all kinds of maps, photos, Radar-Scope photography and such to study whatever targets I had to cover should the whistle blow, all made by this special squadron of B-36s. I was usually responsible for 5 different targets, which changed every so often, especially when I was on alert in different bases in Europe or on home alert in the States.

Thanks again for the video. It was a great reminder of those heroes that were never recognized.

[KenP51]

You are most welcome Hoss Cain.
It looks like we are pretty close to each other. I am about midway between Houston and Galveston

[richardhfcl]

Horace,

     Dad was stationed at Ramey from 1959 to 1963 and I never had heard the name of the B-36 recon mission.
Actually, until your post I had never heard that they overflew the former Soviet Union, but the base had already
transitioned to B-52's by the time we arrived.  I still do have strong memories of the way the B-36's shook the
windows of our Wherry Housing at Walker AFB in Roswell, though.  In the five years we lived there, we never
heard anything of the Roswell UFO incident, either.  Both events could have had security implications.
     Come back to Chicago some time and fly with us!

     Best regards,

     Richard Ferrell

[Double Deuce]

I was assigned to the 5th Strat Recon Wing at Travis AFB Ca in 1954. Not sure how many Recon Wings there were but we flew RB-36H-II versions with a photo compartment in place of the forward bomb bay. A couple of really big cameras resided there. Not too long after I got there we were redesignated as a Bomb Wing and the photo personel were no longer around. Some cross trained to gunners, some just went elsewhere.

This Wing, along with the 9th SRW, flew some photo mapping missions over some "strange" country in the very early 50's. This program still seldom discussed. Never knew the program name as it all happened before I got there.

Left the B-36 program in 1956 and went to KC-97 Tankers at Kindley AFB on the lovely Island of Bermuda. Rough duty but someone had to do it. Mr Cain might remember this program as something called "reflex"? Our job was to refuel B-47's on the way to Eurpoe most every nite.

Returned to the B-36 program at TAFB in 1958 as a crew chief. Flew more than a few hours on these beasts but by then they were just finishing up their lifespan. Only serious work, other than alert duty, was flying something called "SeaFish" missions on a couple airplanes equiped with air sampler filters. These were done during and after nuclear tests, ours and theirs.

About all I will say about it all was "it was interesting times". I still stop by Castle AFB museum when I get a chance and just sit and look at the RB-36H they have there. The wife will leave me alone then cause she knows strange things are going thru my mind.

Double Deuce

[W.D. Roland]

Hi Luke!
got youremail awhile back, feelin guilty that I have not responded.

Yes that was me on the score board

Dad mad it through the chemo good and near 100% up and going.

I just started and on my way out.........LOL! it hurts!
Mad house around her lately(nuts mad)

How are you and yours?
Good I hope.


Later David

[Bruce Perry]

these Guys still fly some cool old airplanes including the electra...

http://buffaloairways.com/aircraft-fleet

B

[Brad Smith]

Are there plans out there for any of these old kyo scale kits? Would be nice to have the plans for this one.

[Marvin Denny]

  There are lots of plans out there for the old Eureka and KYO  kits.  There ia a KYO kit of the B-36  on E-Bay right now.  Goes off tomorrow I think.
  go To  the bay, search for B-36 and it will come uo (amidst a lot of bras in 36B sizes)
  Last time I looked this morning it was still at a reasonable price in the low $200s

  Bigiron

[larry borden]

... and from the Pima Air Museum ...

This is the B-36 that sat outside the gate at General Dynamics now Lockheed Martin, here in Fort Worth. It was in the process of being slowly restored by volunteers until the Air Force took it back and sent it to the Pima Air Museum to be restored.  Beautiful restoration.

I'm so old I remember when these things were flying out of Carswell AFB.