A rugged trainer for kids.

[Mike Griffin]

Someone on another forum brought up the idea that he would like to see a really rugged .25-.35 trainer put on the market for kids.  Something that could take some abuse and not be too hard to repair.  Most trainers that have a solid balsa wing are 1/2A size and in my humble opinion, 1/2 A planes are hard for an adult to fly much less a child.

What I was thinking of doing would be to take something like a Ringmaster or a Mark 1 and turn it into a trainer by planking the wing and beefing it up some.  It would still have ribs but built to take more abuse.  Lets face it, you can tear anything up but if you make it tougher to tear it up and not hard to repair, it might serve the purpose.

I would be happy to build a prototype if you guys think it is something that would fulfill a need.   Let me know.

Mike

[Bill Little]

Hi Mike,

IMHO, you would be better served with a foam wing.  Even with planking the built up wooden wing will be more difficult to repair.

Something akin to a Mongoose with foam wing and simple construction.  Could use anything from an OS .20FP to a Fox .35.

Just a thought.......

Bill

[Tim Wescott]

One of the planes that has been recommended to me as a "crash & fly" is a combat wing from Phil Cartier.  Tape over foam is rugged and easy to fix -- if you use EPP foam for the leading edge then it'll just bounce instead of crunching.

A foam wing married to a decent looking profile fuselage should be a good-flying, rugged combination.

[Ron Merrill]

Mike, yes, like Bill said. Ron.

[Bill Little]

All the "OLD" trainers had a carved and hollowed wing from a piece of solid balsa.  That would be difficult to pull off with out the right machinery.

Bill

[Tim Wescott]

Like this?

http://home.earthlink.net/~philcartier/webcat/Descriptions/StreakIII.html

The aesthetics could be improved upon, but I've seen one of these in person (and would have bought it had I had the $$) and it looks like a solid little plane.

[ChrisSarnowski]

Phil also makes foam wings for the S1 Ringmasters.

http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?topic=20404.0

Who knows, maybe you guys could work together on a complete foam+wood kit.

-Chris

[Steven Kientz]

I will atest to the ruggedness of the Gotcha combat wings. I have one wing on its 3rd rebuild. I do use a different fuse setup than comes in the kit. I use the Yankee Nipper style. Not saying it is better, just easier for me. The great thing about the wings they can be repaired with Gorilla glue and shipping tape.

Steve

[larry borden]

I built one of the Flite Streak trainers for all the neighbohood kids. I like it because of its all bals wing. I would like to see a Ringmaster trainer with a solid wing. I remember my old Freshman 29, it was almost indestructable and that was what I learned to fly on.

[Mike Griffin]

The  Ringmaster foam wing with an external bellcrank might be the ticket. 

Mike

[Balsa Butcher]

Consider recommending a .25 engine rather than a .35. A lot less intimidating for a novice. FP-25, LA-25, Brodak .25, all excellent engines in their own way and readily available...sort of. (B-25 out of stock for now but is the best of the lot).

[Wynn Robins]

I've got some cool planes for trainers - pretty much what you are looking for - some even have "pop off" wings - so if the impact is hard enough -the wings will come off without damage,

[Balsa Butcher]

Another thought: The plane you are looking for may be already designed and in limited production. Check out Joe Just's F6-F Carrier trainer. With a standard bellcrank it is pretty much the plane you describe.

[John Fitzgerald]

Mike,
I have a Ukey 35 that uses a OS .25 FP.  It's the toughest plane I have ever had.  I hit a post and tore off the outboard wing a few months ago, and it was soon flying again.  To my knowledge, no one is actively producing it now.  The guy who took over production no longer produces it.  Maybe you could get the rights.  I would buy another if they were obtainable.  It's the best .35 size trainer I have ever seen.  My son won beginner stunt with one at Wichita when he was 14 about 11 years ago. I originally trained him with a solid wing Sig Shoestring sporting an OS .10, but the Ukey, which I got shortly thereafter, would have been better.  I have checked into the other comparable foamies, and they cost too much for my taste.

[Terrence Durrill]

Build one of the Grassroots Trainers...plans available from MODEL AVIATION.  I did!  It is a well designed, very tough trainer that can be powered by any good .35 engine, Fox, McCoy, Veco, etc.  The wing is removable..........TDurrill               

[Fred Cronenwett]

I built this trainer based on a model built and designed by Marvin Denny.

The wing is white foam with balsa skins. The elevator and fuselage are typical balsa.

I used an OS-25FP engine and the engine and tank point upwards for a reason. You can drive this into the ground and maybe the gear gets bent but the motor and tank are safe.

roughly a 42" span and the lack of a rudder is on purpose. Marvin keeps bugging me to put a rudder on it does not need one to fly.  Very simple to build and flies great. The controls on the top of the wing are really easy to install and again to keep all controls on the top surface away from crash damage.

The balsa wing skins for this model came from the Rusty Brown estate, that is why the model was fiberglassed and not painted, I thought it looked kinda neat with the wood grain showing thru. Being Fiberglassed the model is tough and easy to clean. Rusty might not be with us anymore but he flies in spirit everytime this model is flown.

Fred Cronenwett

[John Stiles]

I crashed a .40 size P-51 with a foam wing and built up fuse[planted it at full speed]....so bad the fuse was in splinters.....the wing came up smiling.

[dave siegler]

I think the ones made of coroplast are far better. 

At kidventure EAA oshkosh, they have proven to be indistructable.  The ones we used had .061 engines and 42 foot lines.  Real flat props kept the lap times down. but I think A .15 sized one would be outstanding.

Sorry but it isn't even close.  coro is much tougher than any balsa or foam  construction.

[Bill Little]

I think the ones made of coroplast are far better. 

At kidventure EAA oshkosh, they have proven to be indistructable.  The ones we used had .061 engines and 42 foot lines.  Real flat props kept the lap times down. but I think A .15 sized one would be outstanding.

Sorry but it isn't even close.  coro is much tougher than any balsa or foam  construction.

Hi Dave,

Since Mike is looking for something in the .25-.35 size, do you think coroplast will work for that?

BIG Bear
RNMM/AMM

[Tim Wescott]

Since Mike is looking for something in the .25-.35 size, do you think coroplast will work for that?

My gut feel is that it won't be stiff enough.  Maybe if you could find some that's 3/8" thick.  I also don't think that the strength/weight ratio is pleasing -- yes, a coreplast trainer is cool, but foam & wood is going to be almost as durable, and much more satisfying.

[John Fitzgerald]

Some R/C combat planes have coroplast wings and tail, but they are heavy for the wing area, and require to be flown very fast.  My son has one he used to fly.  I think that material has insufficient strength to weight to work well for .35 size C/L.  I wish the Ukey series was still available, but from what I have heard about that, the guy in GA isn't making them any more.

[Russell Shaffer]

Pat King has plans for a Ringmaster trainer with a ply skinned wing held on with rubber bands.  I need to build it for my granddaughter. 

[Larry Fernandez]

The Gilroy posse will vouch for me here, as I have taught many newcommers to fly and solo with a Top Flite Streak Trainer. Its been planted many times and I just stick a new prop on her and she's ready for more abuse. I works well with an FP .15. NOT A FOX .15 I believe that Brodak is kitting this.
After they become comfortable with the trainer, I'll turn them loose with a nose heavy SkyRay.

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team

[dave siegler]

During eaa, the team that works kid venture flies as many as 800 flights a day and always more than 2k flights  for the week.  I think this will be the 20th year of doing this, so I think there are some lessons to be learned.

The coro plast planes just work better than anything anyone has tried.  Last year ZERO airframes were broken, and there were over 2000 flights per year. 

I think the flat airfoil will get flexy, but there are some folded airfoiled ones that will work for larger sized airplanes, but we have great luck with norvel 061's


A wooden or foam airplane just does not have a chance. 


I would suggest you grab that political sign and try to make an airplane out of it. 

2 years ago when we switched, I did not believe that they would fly well.


They are heavier, but not too much, they can be made to look like an airplane.  They do not fly too fast.  Heck, in a 4 hrs shift, there might be 200 short flights on a circle, if they were not easy to fly and reliable we could not maintain that kind of pace.

They are not stunters.

Also the conditions are  not ideal, there are Bell 47's operating close by and wind rotor downwash, can make conditions chalanging.  it also gets windy in ohkosh.

Really, try it you will not be unhappy. 

They build fast, fly OK and are unbreakable. 
They are cheap to build.
I would not build a balsa or foam airplane to teach kids. 


http://www.spadtothebone.com/freeplans.htm

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_10612918/anchors_10613016/mpage_1/key_/anchor/tm.htm#10613016 

[peabody]

Hi Mike
Years ago (30?) , the GSCB built Guillows Trainers..solid wood, upright engines.....VERY durable!

I got both a .15  and a .35 sized from Mike Turo before he moved south. They were / butt ugly, which eased trainees minds, and flew reasonably well.  The .15 met its demise while downing, essentially, a wing over into the deck of the carrier Intrepid!

The .35 met is still going, surviving hundreds of flights with a Fox as power......

Trainers should be used to teach simple maneuvers.....take off, up, down, and landing.  They should also be big enough to be able to fly 5 second or so laps.

The secret of the Guillows pieces is the engine crutch, which just about guarantees that the nose won't break on a dork....

Have fun!

[Dalton Hammett]

As a club, our group does a lot of trainer flying for both young and old interested people.  The Flyte Streak Trainer is about the best idea we've found for a trainer.  It's extremely solid and can be flown with anything from an .09 to a .25 easily.   We started out with three about four years ago and still have the original three flying.  I believe the solid balsa wing is the way to go for a trainer and I would think a Jr. Ringmaster size plane with a similar solid wing would do as well.

Dalton H.

[John Fitzgerald]

I wonder what it would take for someone to take over making the Ukey series?  Patents to buy?

[Kim Mortimore]

The Gilroy posse will vouch for me here, as I have taught many newcommers to fly and solo with a Top Flite Streak Trainer. Its been planted many times and I just stick a new prop on her and she's ready for more abuse. I works well with an FP .15. NOT A FOX .15 I believe that Brodak is kitting this.
After they become comfortable with the trainer, I'll turn them loose with a nose heavy SkyRay.

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team

Hey Larry, what happens to any Fox .15 that wanders into the vicinity of your Streak Trainer?   

[Ward Van Duzer]

Fox .15, basic El Diablo fuselage. I'll buy the foam wing bit, maybe covered. I felt you needed something that looked like an airplane to turn on kids. (I believed .35's were too large (and perhaps too heavy for kids).

[proparc]

If the thread was specifically about a "rugged trainer for kids" then, coroplast with a square plastic tube like the RC ships, is the way to go.

[bob werle]

Mike
I agree with you that an all balsa wing is a good trainer option.  I have converted different built up wing planes to an all balsa plank wing in sizes from 1/2A to .29.  There was an all balsa stunt trainer froman english mag. called Stunt Wind for .29 to .35.
My best flyer is an enlarged White Lightning from the plans on Hip Pocket Aeronautics   41" span for a Veco .19.  The orignal is a plank wing for 1/2A that flys great and would be a good trainer too.
Bob

[Brett Buck]

Hey Larry, what happens to any Fox .15 that wanders into the vicinity of your Streak Trainer?

  I am sure it is treated with all the respect it is due.

     Brett

[Larry Fernandez]

  I am sure it is treated with all the respect it is due.

     Brett

Uh. yeah ,uh... respect. yeah, what Brett said, respect.

Larry, Unofficial World Record Holder of the World Famous Fox .15 Hurl
AND founding member of the Buttafucco Stunt Team

[Bill Little]

Well, since Mike was inquiring about a .25-.35 size trainer, I love how everything from a 1/2A coroplast model on up as been offered.  Nothing like staying on topic!

I still think a foam wing with a stretched profile fuselage would be the ticket.  Mount the engine "upright" to minimize damage.   It would be rugged and as well as being a first plane, it could actually be used to move on to some aerobatics.  Using a .25 or even  .35, it would not be too much for youngsters.  Of course a 4 year old might not be able to handle it!

BIG Bear
RNMM/AMM

[John Fitzgerald]

I think someone should start building the Ukey arf series again, but it looks like there is minimal interest.  I'd do it myself if I had the shop facilities.

[Joe Just]

As one of the two guys( myself and Jim Carpenter) that started the original Ukey series I have been following this thread with some interest.  During the time Jim and I were responsible for making and shipping the Ukey series (3 sizes) we shipped hundreds and hundreds of these planes with only 2 complaints.  The Ukey was the very first modern era RTF.  After my go around with Cancer I had to let things wind down some, and when we lost our core maker  there was no way to continue making Ukeys. Core costs simply went up over 300%.
Now after some thought I made myself think I should jump back in after Jim Pearson is no longer making them.  A cost analysis has led me to forget it.  We used to ship Ukeys from WA State to the East coast for an average of $11 and got 3 day delivery using Priority mail.  now that same size box from here to the East is $44 (that's right Forty Four dollars!)  Balsa has jumped up 50 to 70% since 1995.  On top of that, believe it or not, there were 85 separate steps in getting material to shipping a Ukey.  Now, if I was crazy enough top give it another try the retail cost would jump from the original $60 to $70 to well over $150. For the past  four years I have been building nearly 100 Profile Carrier planes and have sold them all of them at near cost as a labor of love.  I will be the first to congradulate someone who finds my thoughts wrong as they build hundreds of ukeys for a needed slot in this hobby.

In my opinion for what it is worth is to get one of Brodak's fine trainers, or a club could make a short run of Ukeys, or a simple cloning.  I can't do it.

Joe Just

Joe Just

[Joe Mig]

We have tryed a few diffrent planes with my 10 year old and the U-key with a Fox 35 is the best .

[larry borden]

I know that my all balsa Freshman 29 with upright engine survived a lot of crashes and I saw the Guillows trainers do the same. Foam wings are nice, but I feel like there would be more damage in a crash. That was the reason I went with the all balsa Streak trainer, I figure it will bounce upon impact.

[Phillip Kenney]

I have a Ukey and believe it is one of the best trainer but also recognize the uptick in costs to today. Looking at my Ukey if plans were available the only expensive item to ship would be the wing cores and considering the weight I would think that would not be to bad. How about a short short kit. Plans, materials list and a set of cores and let the modeler go from there? Might bring the cost back down to a resonable price.

[Ward Van Duzer]

Go to Phil cartiers COREHOUSE!


http://home.earthlink.net/~philcartier/webcat/pricelist.html



Ward-O

[John Craig]

 The Corehouse SL Gotcha
is my recommendation.  OS 25 & minimize the the amount of control response.  I think Phil has a special on the ARFs   2 for a very reasonable price.

http://home.earthlink.net/~philcartier/webcat/Descriptions/SpeedLimitSL.html

I have beat the daylights out of his Gotcha Plugger for the past 3 years. Worn out 2 fox 35s. Replaced the wing once & broken the fuselage at least 8 times.  It still flies.  All repairs were straight forward & it flew the next weekend.

[Guy B Jr]

Joe Just
I don't doubt your cost estimates at all. You know more about a UKEY than anyone.

Rather than produce it as an ARF. Why not produce it as a kit. A kit would have the following:
   Set of wing cores drilled for the dowels and with spars installed
   Fuselage with motor mounts and doublers installed
      and drilled for bellcrank screw   
      Slots cut for the rudder and stab
      Dowels and holes drilled for same
   Rudder, stab, and elevator
   No hardware
   Nothing covered or painted
   Set of plans

A short-short kit would be OK for most of us, but drilling the holes in the fuselage for the dowels and properly aligning them for the wing cores is beyond the expertise of most beginners. Maybe a short-short kit could have only the wing cores, plans and the fuselage (as above), but with the holes drilled in the cores and fuselage for the dowels.
   
Just a thought.   

[jim ivey]

Testors "freshman"   easy to build, easy to fly, easy to crash, easy to fix and easy to try again ! jim

[pat king]

Mike,
One of my Ringmaster Trainers with a foam wing would do well. Let me know if you want the files.

Pat

[Joe Just]

Joe Just
I don't doubt your cost estimates at all. You know more about a UKEY than anyone.

Rather than produce it as an ARF. Why not produce it as a kit. A kit would have the following:
   Set of wing cores drilled for the dowels and with spars installed
   Fuselage with motor mounts and doublers installed
      and drilled for bellcrank screw   
      Slots cut for the rudder and stab
      Dowels and holes drilled for same
   Rudder, stab, and elevator
   No hardware
   Nothing covered or painted
   Set of plans

A short-short kit would be OK for most of us, but drilling the holes in the fuselage for the dowels and properly aligning them for the wing cores is beyond the expertise of most beginners. Maybe a short-short kit could have only the wing cores, plans and the fuselage (as above), but with the holes drilled in the cores and fuselage for the dowels.
   
Just a thought.   

I'll rethink about it.  But don't hang by your thumbs hopeing for a quick answer.
Joe

[larry borden]

Testors "freshman"   easy to build, easy to rly, easy to crash,  easy to try again ! jim

Most of the time, they bounced when they crashed. Replace prop, Testor's nylon 10-6 and try again.

[Randy Cuberly]

Hi Mike,
Our club here in Tucson, "The Cholla Choppers", has over a period of many years built and "used up"many different types of trainers from Stunman 23 1/2A's to Foamie Slow Combat types.
The ones that funtioned the best overall and still are being used are the ones suggested by Peabody in his post above, The simple all wood Guillows "Type" Trainer.
They are robust very easy to fly and easy to repair.  If they do break, which is rare, a little CA or 5 minute epoxy, at the field, gets them back in the air almost immediately.  Upright mounted engine for fewer tank issues and less damage on the inevitable prang.
I believe the most important thing for young folks learning is a stable airplane with enough line tension to provide feedback (one of the main problems with 1/2 A's), and lots of flight time.
The Guillows trainers with a good 25 or Fox 35 (even tired ones as long as they're reliable) are the perfect ticket for lots of flying time without hassels.
Easy to build, easy to fly and the perfect size.  Speed can always be adjusted down with prop pitch for younger folks and the airplanes still fly reliably.

Did I say easy to build!!!...

I'm sure plans are redily available.

Randy Cuberly

[larry borden]

Marvin Denny has plans for the Freshman 29. I don't know about Guillow's trainers. I went for the Freshman as it was 3 bucks cheaper than theGuillows.

[Mike Griffin]

A great big thank you to all of your for your input..I have taken this all in and am starting to formulate some ideas to get a prototype built in the near future...

Mike

[Joe Mig]

This is a Guillows someone was kind enough to give me and it was built really nice with a few tweaks and a lot better then the other one I have.  But I had too fly them kind of fast that is with a FP 25 on them and my son behind the line with some help from John Kelly.   They drop quick when the run time is over and the little guy was not wanting too solo with it.  Now the U-Key on the other hand has some finesse and after the one flight with help getting it up in the air he wanted too solo the next flight and it was a success and a ego booster as well.
We do have a Flight Streak as well with a norvell 15 on it and he likes that as well now but it is not as stable as the Fox 35 powered U-Key.  Maybe you could put a WANTED U-Key in the classified.
Joe