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Author Topic: A head's up about balsa in the immediate future  (Read 11892 times)

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: A head's up about balsa in the immediate future
« Reply #50 on: January 02, 2019, 10:40:34 AM »
Does anyone else wonder why balsa is so absolutely necessary for them windmills? Because structurally they could as well be made with foam core materials.
Maybe it's got something to do with long term resistance of structure?
But anyway, raping all that tree from rainforests does not exactly match with their image as clean energy:) L

   I agree, the same issue they had with it for cryogenic tank insulation would appear to apply - difficult QA. You would think an engineered material would be a lot better, at least they would have a chance of knowing the properties. With balsa or any other natural product, it's just a crap-shoot, or requires extensive sorting or categorizing, and there is no guarantee that you are even going to be able to get the same thing next time. That's a problem in the construction industry, too, they farm it to be able to have some control over it.

     Brett

Offline Lauri Malila

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Re: A head's up about balsa in the immediate future
« Reply #51 on: January 02, 2019, 11:09:30 AM »
..but of course, balsa is one of the best core materials when it comes to extreme compression loads, most foams don't even come close. But I don't see extreme loads in those blades. In that use, unless you count possible flutter and temperature variations as such. L

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: A head's up about balsa in the immediate future
« Reply #52 on: January 02, 2019, 04:06:43 PM »
..but of course, balsa is one of the best core materials when it comes to extreme compression loads, most foams don't even come close. But I don't see extreme loads in those blades. In that use, unless you count possible flutter and temperature variations as such. L

   Right, but I would think that might be trumped by its extreme variability (more-or-less the premise of Bobby's post) - you never know what you are going to get. That's why they invented aluminum and aramid honeycomb, that's almost as good and the volumetric density can be much better than balsa.

   Another point (also in line with the original premise) - by the time it gets to you, the waste/"shrinkage" on a piece of 1/16 balsa is astronomical, maybe 500-1000% if you select out contest balsa from a random batch.  That would appear to apply to the wind turbine people, too, since you would have to be very careful and toss a lot of wood to maintain any semblance of repeatability.

    Brett

Offline curtis mattikow

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Re: A head's up about balsa in the immediate future
« Reply #53 on: January 02, 2019, 04:44:00 PM »
Maybe they make windmills from balsa because
FOAM SUCKS.

Online Dave_Trible

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Re: A head's up about balsa in the immediate future
« Reply #54 on: January 02, 2019, 04:57:46 PM »
In the boat building scenario and I would think the wind blade construction they are somewhat overbuilt making selection not too critical.  They likely buy it like we did-cut end grain (about 2" thick) and bound with a glass mesh cloth in something like 4 X 8 sheets.  Those who manufacture this core would have to be those picking the wood.  I don't recall having 'grades' offered.  It was laid into the resin chop mix in the mold then sprayed over and rolled down.  It was certified for this use by the industry association and I know with a design safety factor.  Must be also true for the wind blades.  Some of these blades in my area are as big as rail cars.  A bunch of balsa has to go into each. 

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Offline Lauri Malila

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Re: A head's up about balsa in the immediate future
« Reply #55 on: January 02, 2019, 11:47:45 PM »
Actually, I did what I should've done earlier and found lots of interesting reading just by googling "Balsa in windmill blades" 🤔
It appears that it's used especially in highly stressed root but often also in rest of the blade.
honeycombs are difficult to use in resin infusion molding. L

Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: A head's up about balsa in the immediate future
« Reply #56 on: January 03, 2019, 03:09:22 AM »
Demand feeds supply . .

As many folks know I have been supplying 3-5lb balsa to the stunt community for nearly a decade and I chose to close my doors to direct and in person contest sales due to lack of demand - NOT LACK OF SUPPLY.

Light wood is simply more costly than medium to heavy balsa and being blunt, a lot of stunt folks simply donÂ’t want to pay what it actually costs (for whatever reason).

Light wood comes from young trees and they are both less interesting to loggers (as there is less wood on a young tree) and more expensive to harvest as cutting early reduces the profit for the logger. Young trees that fall are often sadly used as kindling for the Kilns!! As loggers often regard treating them for sale as too costly. I worked with one team to rescue this light wood to stop it being used for Kindling a couple of years back and it worked out well for everyone.

Bottom line is if you want light wood, be prepared to pay for it and patronize the suppliers like; Tom and SIG who continue to supply it and you wonÂ’t loose the supply.

Right now though I would agree with Bob with a caveat; No Demand = No Supply.




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Offline Dennis Moritz

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A head's up about balsa in the immediate future
« Reply #57 on: January 03, 2019, 03:37:22 AM »


Our balsa needs are minuscule in the world context. Aside from control line stunt no one is weighing the sheets. WeÂ’re also an endangered species. Probably dying off. Too few of us to mate and perpetuate the genome. Even folks building doll houses out number us by many factors. Jose Modesta molds competition planes from fiberglass. By the by. IÂÂÂ’ve seen those creations drub many traditional models. I saw a Windy Miss Ashley for sale on eBay. 650 or so for the components. Not bad. Balsa feels good as we cut, sand and mould. Vacuum bagging, laying up epoxy soaked fibers, resembles assembly line manufacturing. Mindless drudge work...

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Offline Dennis Moritz

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A head's up about balsa in the immediate future
« Reply #58 on: January 03, 2019, 03:40:01 AM »




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Offline Scott Richlen

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Re: A head's up about balsa in the immediate future
« Reply #59 on: January 03, 2019, 06:12:00 AM »
Quote
Too few of us to mate and perpetuate the genome.

Well, I guess there could be a big enough crowd at Brodaks for that to happen....



Ewwwwwwww!   :o

Offline Joe Ed Pederson

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Re: A head's up about balsa in the immediate future
« Reply #60 on: January 04, 2019, 06:02:32 PM »

Our balsa needs are minuscule in the world context. Aside from control line stunt no one is weighing the sheets.

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Free flight modelers weigh balsa sheets very carefully.  With my background in FF and CL, I would even weigh balsa sheets if I built an RC model out of balsa.  Of course, the number of free flighters added to number of CL flyers is still a miniscule number of people using 4 to 6 lb wood.

Joe Ed Pederson



Offline Dennis Moritz

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A head's up about balsa in the immediate future
« Reply #61 on: January 04, 2019, 07:04:03 PM »
Indoor fliers are fanatic about wood. Razor thinning sheets. Look at their spidery creations. Barely any balsa mass left. A good size tree or two of the right stuff would probably supply most of us for quite a while. Serious competition free flight went to carbon fiber. DidnÂÂ’t they? Or Kevlar.  Last time I looked. Yeah. Old farts at Brodak have a ball. Me included. Going forward weÂ’’re poor candidates for procreation. Lololo


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« Last Edit: January 04, 2019, 08:19:39 PM by Dennis Moritz »

Offline Scott Richlen

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Re: A head's up about balsa in the immediate future
« Reply #62 on: January 05, 2019, 06:27:37 AM »
Okay, so we need about 3 guys to volunteer.  Your mission: fly down to Ecuador (or where-ever, I'm an engineer, not a geographer), cut down a couple of prime light balsa trees , tie them together, and raft them back to the good ole USA.  I got a chainsaw out in the garage and a table saw in the shop.  So if you guys will do that, I think I can handle the rest.

Okay, so who wants to volunteer?  Show of hands, please?

 S?P

Offline Bob Hunt

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Re: A head's up about balsa in the immediate future
« Reply #63 on: January 05, 2019, 06:29:03 AM »
Great Idea! I volunteer Scott...

Bob

Offline Scott Richlen

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Re: A head's up about balsa in the immediate future
« Reply #64 on: January 05, 2019, 06:35:24 AM »
Naw.  Not me.  I got the chainsaw part.   ;D

With your previous international experience and balsa expertise I volunteer Bob to be our official raft leader!

We need two more volunteers to follow Bob under his illustrious leadership.  Anyone?  Anyone?

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: A head's up about balsa in the immediate future
« Reply #65 on: January 05, 2019, 09:06:41 AM »
Okay, so we need about 3 guys to volunteer.  Your mission: fly down to Ecuador (or where-ever, I'm an engineer, not a geographer), cut down a couple of prime light balsa trees , tie them together, and raft them back to the good ole USA.  I got a chainsaw out in the garage and a table saw in the shop.  So if you guys will do that, I think I can handle the rest.

Okay, so who wants to volunteer?  Show of hands, please?

 S?P

     Speaking of rafts,( and in a way your were) deos everyone remember the voyage of the Kontiki? I may not have the spellings correct, but a gentleman named Thor Hyderdal (I'm sure I butchered his name) wrote a book by that name on his theory that the islands in the South Pacific were inhabited by people who's ancestors sailed there in balsa rafts from South America, and recreated the trip in the Kontiki. Well, he almost made it and I think proved his point. The raft eventually made it's was here to St. Louis and ended up in the St. Louis Museum of Transport. When they took possession of it, conservation efforts were the first thing that they thought of, as it was beginning to deteriorate quite a bit. Some one from the parks department, which over sees the museum, was familiar with Bob Underwood, who many of you know as an outstanding scale builder and who led the Greater St. Louis Modeling Association for many years. What better person to ask about preserving balsa than a model airplane builder! I don't remember exactly what transpired as this was many years ago, but if I ever get back to the museum, I will be sure to ask if they still have the remains of the raft.
  And along the lines of rafts, I have built many models using would I acquired form a local source that were life preservers from the old SS Admiral excursion boat that used to be moored and operated from the St. Louis river front. I bought 640 balsa planks life preservers that measured 2" by 12" by 36" for 200 bucks!. And most of it was contest grade and weight, some as light as 3 pound per cubic foot. These were made in the early 1930 and I think were on the original ship that the hull came from , which was a rail road ferry called the Albatross. I sold some off as the years went by and still have about 100 I think. I have to count them. It was great wood for wing tip and fuselage blocks!. I also have some small blocks that an since passed away club members reclaimed from a rail car that used it as insulation. I think it was common years ago to use balsa block as insulation on refrigerated rail cars and some trucks.
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: A head's up about balsa in the immediate future
« Reply #66 on: January 05, 2019, 12:00:37 PM »
Great Idea! I volunteer Scott...

   History's Greatest Monster - Scott Richlen or Thor Heyerdahl? Discuss...

    Brett

Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: A head's up about balsa in the immediate future
« Reply #67 on: January 05, 2019, 12:19:21 PM »
Don't know for sure but I was told at some point in my flying career that,  as a weight savings device, the floors of airliners were made from a sandwich of end grain balsa between sheets of aluminum.  I expect Howard can tell us whether that someone at some point was pulling our leg.

Ted

Offline Dave Hull

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Re: A head's up about balsa in the immediate future
« Reply #68 on: January 05, 2019, 02:00:49 PM »
I heard something along the same line, Ted, about airliner balsa core floor panels. Except in the version I heard, the earliest attempts used too thin of an aluminum facesheet on the top. This was in a fashion era of women's spike heels. They found that the contact pressure was higher than the panels could take....

I have a bunch of sandwich coupons I collected over the years from different work projects. The nomex core and others are interesting, but the aluminum/balsa/aluminum sample could be used to build bridges.....

Dave
« Last Edit: January 05, 2019, 02:29:42 PM by Dave Hull »

Offline Scott Richlen

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Re: A head's up about balsa in the immediate future
« Reply #69 on: January 05, 2019, 02:30:01 PM »
Quote
History's Greatest Monster - Scott Richlen or Thor Heyerdahl? Discuss...

Brett:

Is this your shyness showing through?  Does this mean you are in?  Report to Captain Hunt immediately!!

Now, we need just one more volunteer.  Hopefully one with a parrot.......Arrrrgggh!

Offline Scott Richlen

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Re: A head's up about balsa in the immediate future
« Reply #70 on: January 05, 2019, 02:32:25 PM »
[quoteWell, he almost made it ][/quote]

Not if the raft ended up in  St. Louis.

How did he get across the isthmus?  The canal wasn't there during Incan times....

Offline curtis mattikow

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Re: A head's up about balsa in the immediate future
« Reply #71 on: January 05, 2019, 02:46:55 PM »
[quoteWell, he almost made it ]

Not if the raft ended up in  St. Louis.

How did he get across the isthmus?  The canal wasn't there during Incan times....
Kon-Tiki was made of contest balsa.  He tucked it under his arm and just walked it across the Isthmus.  Shows the importance of good wood selection.

Offline curtis mattikow

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Re: A head's up about balsa in the immediate future
« Reply #72 on: January 05, 2019, 04:21:47 PM »
I live on hardtack, salt beef, rum, and the occasional seagull.  It toughens you up.

I'm pretty sure on the Kon-tiki he used the heavier logs for the outboard side.


Offline curtis mattikow

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Re: A head's up about balsa in the immediate future
« Reply #73 on: January 05, 2019, 04:28:16 PM »
     Speaking of rafts,( and in a way your were) deos everyone remember the voyage of the Kontiki? I may not have the spellings correct, but a gentleman named Thor Hyderdal (I'm sure I butchered his name) wrote a book by that name on his theory that the islands in the South Pacific were inhabited by people who's ancestors sailed there in balsa rafts from South America, and recreated the trip in the Kontiki. Well, he almost made it and I think proved his point. The raft eventually made it's was here to St. Louis and ended up in the St. Louis Museum of Transport. When they took possession of it, conservation efforts were the first thing that they thought of, as it was beginning to deteriorate quite a bit. Some one from the parks department, which over sees the museum, was familiar with Bob Underwood, who many of you know as an outstanding scale builder and who led the Greater St. Louis Modeling Association for many years. What better person to ask about preserving balsa than a model airplane builder! I don't remember exactly what transpired as this was many years ago, but if I ever get back to the museum, I will be sure to ask if they still have the remains of the raft.
  And along the lines of rafts, I have built many models using would I acquired form a local source that were life preservers from the old SS Admiral excursion boat that used to be moored and operated from the St. Louis river front. I bought 640 balsa planks life preservers that measured 2" by 12" by 36" for 200 bucks!. And most of it was contest grade and weight, some as light as 3 pound per cubic foot. These were made in the early 1930 and I think were on the original ship that the hull came from , which was a rail road ferry called the Albatross. I sold some off as the years went by and still have about 100 I think. I have to count them. It was great wood for wing tip and fuselage blocks!. I also have some small blocks that an since passed away club members reclaimed from a rail car that used it as insulation. I think it was common years ago to use balsa block as insulation on refrigerated rail cars and some trucks.
     Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

I think balsa life rafts were the primary use of balsa during WWII.
Like you, I also acquired a large stock of balsa planks salvaged from a ship long ago, I was told mine was used as insulation on a C3 tanker.  Mine was not contest grade.  I just used some to make the rear turtledeck for this 1946 King Midget single seat car I restored.

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: A head's up about balsa in the immediate future
« Reply #74 on: January 05, 2019, 05:56:06 PM »
[quoteWell, he almost made it ]

Not if the raft ended up in  St. Louis.

How did he get across the isthmus?  The canal wasn't there during Incan times....

   Well, there is a coast of South America that is on the Pacific Ocean side! I think I read that book or parts of it when I was in grade school a whole bunch of years ago. Might have to find a copy of it and read it again. Around that time also was the voyage of the Ra, and ship made of papyrus reeds that was supposed to recreate the possible migration of people from North Africa to South American, I think it was. Memory is really foggy on that one. The last thing I would even think of doing is take on the Atlantic in anything less than an aircraft carrier! These guys that did this sure must have been passionate about their theories.
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Offline Bill Adair

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Re: A head's up about balsa in the immediate future
« Reply #75 on: January 05, 2019, 06:35:42 PM »
Dan,

When I was very young (4 to 6), my family used to take me on picnics aboard the original paddle wheel powered Admiral, sailing out of St. Louis. Still have fond memories of those trips over 70 years ago!

While working at Boeing Seattle I was transferred to the new Sram II missile program in Kent WA. One day I noticed a sheet of wood standing in the hall outside a closed program, and stopped to look. The label said it was balsa, but it was end cut, so of no use for building models. I've no idea what the intended use might have been, but have heard that Boeing was using it for flooring in some airplanes. Later on I found some end cut balsa in the Boeing salvage building.

Bill
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Offline dave siegler

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Re: A head's up about balsa in the immediate future
« Reply #76 on: January 19, 2019, 07:33:21 AM »
this is from balsa USA web page.  This is inside their ware house.  ther has to be some 6lb wood there somewhere





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Offline Scott Richlen

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Re: A head's up about balsa in the immediate future
« Reply #77 on: January 19, 2019, 07:51:59 AM »
I stopped by there last summer.  They hand picked some C-grain lightweight 1/16th for me.  Think they charged $1 a sheet extra for hand-picking.  Not bad, I was happy to get it.

Offline peabody

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Re: A head's up about balsa in the immediate future
« Reply #78 on: April 22, 2019, 04:59:54 AM »
Saw this today. Kind of a shame....not because of the balsa, but because it's not a US plant, in spite of our fearless "leader's" citing the "fact" that windmills cause cancer.
https://cleantechnica.com/2019/04/19/absolute-beast-of-a-wooden-wind-turbine-blade-rolls-off-the-assembly-line/?fbclid=IwAR2g34uqDxdm9yPHoWqo5Rb1RWAA7mhQEEuRlnhY_LBTB3kmjLGr61w_yxA
« Last Edit: April 22, 2019, 06:23:50 AM by peabody »

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: A head's up about balsa in the immediate future
« Reply #79 on: April 22, 2019, 07:39:12 AM »
Saw this today. Kind of a shame....not because of the balsa, but because it's not a US plant, in spite of our fearless "leader's" citing the "fact" that windmills cause cancer.
https://cleantechnica.com/2019/04/19/absolute-beast-of-a-wooden-wind-turbine-blade-rolls-off-the-assembly-line/?fbclid=IwAR2g34uqDxdm9yPHoWqo5Rb1RWAA7mhQEEuRlnhY_LBTB3kmjLGr61w_yxA
We should be thankful that there is a high demand for balsa.  Without it there would be no one growing it and our pathetically small demand would never get filled.  We use their "scrap" so all we need is a few suppliers willing to take that scrap and turn it into the stuff we cherish.    As for our fearless leader:  I read the "fact checkers" comments.     It cracked me up when I read "Trump Lied", windmills do not cause cancer,   but they do cause stress and it is the stress that causes the cancer...  Does anyone remember the old "If A=B and B=C then A=C?  They do still teach that in school don't they? ???

Ken



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Offline qaz049

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Re: A head's up about balsa in the immediate future
« Reply #80 on: April 22, 2019, 09:16:46 AM »
We should be thankful that there is a high demand for balsa.  Without it there would be no one growing it and our pathetically small demand would never get filled.  We use their "scrap" so all we need is a few suppliers willing to take that scrap and turn it into the stuff we cherish.    As for our fearless leader:  I read the "fact checkers" comments.     It cracked me up when I read "Trump Lied", windmills do not cause cancer,   but they do cause stress and it is the stress that causes the cancer...  Does anyone remember the old "If A=B and B=C then A=C?  They do still teach that in school don't they? ???

Ken



der

Thank goodness they teach the scientific method in schools these days. There's absolutely zero evidence that windmills cause cancer or even stress. You'd be in greater risk of cancer from the petrol/gas you pump into your car at the bowser. That old windmill bovine droppings story has been proven to be false over and over.  The problem is that a whole lot of older males are too far into denial to recognize BS.

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: A head's up about balsa in the immediate future
« Reply #81 on: April 22, 2019, 09:30:56 AM »
Thank goodness they teach the scientific method in schools these days. There's absolutely zero evidence that windmills cause cancer or even stress. You'd be in greater risk of cancer from the petrol/gas you pump into your car at the bowser. That old windmill bovine droppings story has been proven to be false over and over.  The problem is that a whole lot of older males are too far into denial to recognize BS.
Sorry but I got my thoughts from an article written back when this whole "cancer" thing started where a study was done and the cause for the increase in cancer was found to be stress from all sources INCLUDING the windmills.  Anyone who thinks that a constant whining noise doesn't cause stress has never had tinnitus.  Conclusive evidence - hell no but zero evidence -please.  I am going to pass on the older male comment.  This forum has enough negative stuff as it is and I am guilty of sneaking in borderline politics so let's just leave it alone.

ken
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Online dale gleason

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Re: A head's up about balsa in the immediate future
« Reply #82 on: April 23, 2019, 10:38:10 PM »
Seeing Ted's post reminded me of my introduction to the Vickers Viscount, courtesy of united airlines. The flooring of the pax compartment was, indeed, quarter inch plywood (hopefully not balsa) sandwiched between two thin aluminum sheets, largely with large open cutouts.

Flexible, I guess, and strong, I guess....

dg


Offline Howard Rush

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Re: A head's up about balsa in the immediate future
« Reply #83 on: April 23, 2019, 11:36:07 PM »
Don't know for sure but I was told at some point in my flying career that,  as a weight savings device, the floors of airliners were made from a sandwich of end grain balsa between sheets of aluminum.  I expect Howard can tell us whether that someone at some point was pulling our leg.

Tedious

I saw it at Boeing Surplus. I never saw much useful balsa there, but I got some 11-lb 4x4s.
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