51%

[peabody]

Sammi notwithstanding, there are periodic threads about growing the hobby/sport.
Almost all say that kids  should be lured.

It seems to me that we (myself included) are ignoring 51% of America....women!

There have been some women that fly/compete, but they are few and far between.

One would think there would be more involved in FLYING?

 

[Dan McEntee]

  Forget the kids. Go after the the 20 and 30 something Dad's and Mom's. They have the bank accounts, minivans and SUVs.  If you get them involved, the kids will come along by default.  You'll never get kids to go along by themselves these days and if you do, you will have to resell it to Mom and Dad who have the already mentioned bank account and transportation.  We had one kid interested in the last several years. A couple of the guys gave him all sorts of stuff, and I think his dad came out once to watch him fly. After that, the kid could only come out if some one picked him up and brought him home. It was far from convenient for anyone. The parents just wanted a free baby sitter! haven't seen him or heard from him since.
  Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee

[Dan McEntee]

  Yep. these days, it take some commitment from the interested party for me to put out any effort. With aviation so common these days, there is no romance for it amongst the general public. Every now and then you will find some one with that "thing" in their DNA that will show interest and I just be ready to consult with and help them as much as they need and if they show any effort. I have long felt that you can not hold a gun to someone's head and make them like and want to build a model airplane. They have to have that little spark inside them that they may not know they have. We have to just keep putting it out there for them to find us. If there were to be a local kid that heard me running an engine or saw me loading and unloading models, and if he  stopped and asked the right questions, that kid would be on easy street! But I don't  think he's out there. I have spent a week each summer, for 16 years, standing in the hot sun and showing people what it's all about, kids and adults. thousands and thousands of people went through the facility. I don't regret a minute of it, but these were largely air plane people, and the feedback and return for the effort was minimal at the very best. I'll keep on trying though. I just gotta find that one more somebody that has the passion for it whether they know it or not. Then they have a whole new world to discover if they are willing.
   Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee

[Brett Buck]

Sammi notwithstanding, there are periodic threads about growing the hobby/sport.
Almost all say that kids  should be lured.

It seems to me that we (myself included) are ignoring 51% of America....women!

There have been some women that fly/compete, but they are few and far between.

One would think there would be more involved in FLYING?

       We aren't ignoring them, they are ignoring us. I would also guess that there are around 1500-2000 people total in the USA flying control line on a semi-regular basis, which actually means that 99.99994% of EVERYONE is ignoring us.

      I see no reason whatsoever to think that we are doing anything, outside our normal activities, that drive women or anyone else away from it. They have to be interested in the first place before we can drive them away.

     Brett

[FLOYD CARTER]

My story is similar to Dan and Air Master.

Years ago, a neighborhood boy, about 11 or 12, came around to my shop and was really interested in model planes.  Well, I can't say I didn't try!  Took him to the flying field, showed him many of my models to explain construction. He wanted to start with a simple  1/2-A free flight that was easy to build and fly.   I supplied him with everything needed: a kit, tools, engine.  I said I would help him get it flying when done.

He went away all fired up!  He never showed up again.

[CircuitFlyer]

Our club just got a lead on a new enthusiastic youth member. Our plan is to get him started with 1/2a electric powered models only. Heck, if mom is game, maybe we can get her to give it a try. (Do you think that would happen with a noisy IC motor?)  From most kids viewpoint: IC motors are so last century and they aren’t interested in antiques.  Fingers crossed, we’ll see how it goes this Spring.

[Tom McClain]

In the last 15 years I have introduced over 20 adults and youth to control line and have soloed 5.  None have come back except for one.  I agree with Buck, they have to be interested and no amount of conjoling and sweetening the pot can make up for a fire in belly and desire.  We may be a dying breed that love aviation of all forms.  One has to love aviation to want to participate.

[Brett Buck]

We may be a dying breed that love aviation of all forms.  One has to love aviation to want to participate.

     Interesting that you should say that. To be honest, I don't really care too much about aviation per se. I was moderately interested when I was a kid, but only because the astronauts were test pilots, and I cared about things like the X-15, but mostly it was space, not air. I am even less interested in most aspects of aviation now. I enjoy modeling and stunt, both from the workmanship and technical knowledge and skills required, and the competition. But airplanes and aviation  in general, not too much.

   The point of mentioning that is that even when I was a kid, interest in aviation of any form was very rare, no one much cared about it even then (in the 60s). That's 3 generations, more or less, where aviation is not of general interest, and many/most people barely even think about it. Moreover, suppose there are a few people who are interested in/like/love aviation - what are they going to do?  They are going to fly RC, because if you like aviation, that's as close as you can get to full-scale, you have control of all the axes, and can emulate real life. CL certainly does not do that.

   I think any promotional efforts that count on some sort of general interest in aviation is likely going to have a lot of problems, because the premise is faulty. I think, if anything, we should promote on the inherent merits of CL and CL Stunt independent of aviation as a general topic.

      Brett

[Dennis Moritz]

It's hard to build CL model airplanes that fly. We underestimate our skills. Even those of us on the less accomplished end. Building a straight built up wing, covering, aligning, even mounting an engine securely. At Brodak years back, I was shocked to hear an assembler of an ARF saying he "built" the plane. In a way though, he was right. Even a CL ARF assemblage needs skill. Building from a kit takes a lot of knowledge, craft, experience. If you don't have a mentor around, wow. Good luck.

Getting the engines to run reliably, another skill, a skill with many components. Tanks. How about trouble-shooting those, if you are using a metal tank that may be clogged a bit by various causes. Blowing out the needle. Vibration issues. Long list. You need to develop the "ears." Hard that. Many never do.

Then there is the flying. Remember how long it took way back when to fly inverted, do inside and outside loops. Then there is the outside square, the side the goes straight down.

More than anything else I think our hobby is out of step with the day to day enthusiasms and inclinations of this present time. Folks don't make anything much with their hands these days. My father built our kitchen cabinets. There was a wood shop in the apartments in NYC where I grew up. Always in use. Who does that now? Building cabinets from scratch as a matter of course.

How can you work on a modern car? Is that an engine under the hood?

We buy sealed up stuff. Incredibly sophisticated. Like this laptop I'm typing on. What. Repair this. Get into the circuit boards. Are there circuit boards? Remember Heathkit?  It takes days, at times, to make sense of an operating system update. Getting into the invisible scrambling electronic bugs. I have no idea.

[Dennis Moritz]

We probably did ourselves no service by yapping at each other, arguing. Whatever the subject. Not an attractive face to show someone new and enthused. We're a bunch of old guys, frequently not wise.

[Leonard Bourel]

I have to agree with Brett on this one as well I have little or no interest in full scale aviation . I love building things and flying things I have built or re built However I dont care about flying in things I have never been up in a powered aircraft and have flown in a glider once and did not really care for it I  guess it is about creating somthing and making it look and  do what I want it to do to the best of my ability that is what keeps my fire burning  I think most familys today dont want to spend time or money on hobbys They are not into delayed gratification They want it out of the box and ready to go NOW!!!!! They are not going to take the time to learn the skills They are also not going to spend the money for the equipment or give up any space to do this kind of thing or spend weekends at a flying field so Johnny can hang out with a bunch of old guys  It is just to much of a stretch and off the beaten path. Two summers ago I taught 4 kids how to fly half A  after a few sessions they all soloed and seamed to really enjoy it Within One day they all walked away and never came back to fly again.  I guess they learned it and they were not going to spend time or money to go any further with it I think the parents made that clear as well.

[Peter in Fairfax, VA]

Our best luck at NVCL has been with folks who find their way to our flying circles.  Previously, the club did demos at aviation events, scouting events, so we have the trainer technology and instruction methods.  In our case, we keep the ready to go trainers in the mower shed.  We get both brand new people and people coming back to C/L.  Most have some interest in aviation or history and enjoy the outdoors.

As far as IC vs electric, we use IC for that, as the power plants are more durable.  An ESC may not survive a crash, and the gear (motor, ESC, timer, batteries, charger) is heavy and expensive.  At the height of our annual Stuntfest contest, a dad with four kids in tow walked up, ages 6-9, roughly.  After a brief tour, I asked the kids which they liked better, and they went for IC.

Somewhat related is getting folks back into flying.  At least half our new members come from the ranks of "flew yesterday's planes." This presents a challenge, as the some electric flyers would rather you didn't fly pulse jet, D speed, carrier, combat or even a Fox 35 on a Ringmaster in the next circle.

Peter

[Steve Dwyer]

It isn’t just flying control line, the same question plays in when you consider model railroad, wood working, collecting stamps or baseball cards only to name a few activities from the past that youngsters don’t care about today.

There is a ton of information written on the question why kids act or behave differently than kids of 60 years earlier. Some have evaluated the maturity level between kids of these different eras. Kids today are saturated with information nonexistent to us earlier. What’s very interesting if your curious about the subject is what kids will be like 60 years from now. It’s no secret society has taken a keen interest in the behavior of young people today.

When you find a kid showing a speck of interest in your flying at the nearby park, consider what the kid is up against if he or she was to pursue the same. Enjoy yourself with a spectator audience but don’t expect it to go anywhere if the kid acts interested and you're thinking of luring him. It’s over gents, maybe there will be some development with RC and quads so long as manufacturers find an ongoing market to supply, but control line is way out of their sphere of interest and capacity for that matter. We evolve that’s what makes the world go forward.

[Ken Culbertson]

I think we are approaching this from the wrong direction.  Think back to when we were kids.  Was it the building or the flying that attracted us?  In my case it was both and still is.  But that came from wanting to fly what I built which came from watching someone fly what they built.   In my youth if you wanted to fly, you had to build.  There wasn't an internet with hundreds of ARFs out there, so we built.  Now, we have wrapped ourselves in a culture that only rewards both, because that is what we had to do as kids.  Unfortunately, today's kids don't have to build anything anymore.  No matter what it is there is one ready to use.  Everything is "plug and play".  To many of us, flying is the rush you get from controlling something that always on the edge of being out of control in pursuit of a perfection that cannot be achieved.  I think this is the point Brett was making.  That is not dead in children today but having to spend countless hours building to become part of our "club" is just not in the cards.  We still get a lot of kids interested in what we are doing but they don't ask "how did you make that" anymore, they ask "where did you buy that". It is not the NATS that draws people into wanting to compete, it is human nature.  Most clubs have dropped appearance points for all but he top events.  I think it is time to drop them for all but the National events.  Let there be a separate award for "best looking" or some such thing.  I know this does not sit well with a lot of our senior members and I don't like it either, but we have to face reality.  What benefit will there be to appearance points if there are no more contests.

Ken

[RC Storick]

Why we stand alone. When most of us were kids flight was still new (mean modern flight) X-1, X-15, Gemini heck even to 1967 Apollo 1 flights. People were enamored with flight. As time passed it became an everyday occurrence. (no big deal) so now everyone is interested in VR and computing. Face it guys the past is the past. I will do my part to keep interests up but I must say in the metrics it's slowing down.

[Peter in Fairfax, VA]

To me, the challenge was not building, but rather the flying/field skills.  With no instruction, my dad and I wrecked the Cox PT-19 trainer pretty quickly, but it was clear that success was beyond a single session.  Gravitating towards combat, my building skills were more about function than finish.

Another influence in my trajectory was access to built models based.  Initially, as a teen, I worked in a hobby shop and bought stunters from folks who were moving out of town.  At present, my work handling model downsizings and estates, as well as community with other enthusiasts/competitors, is providing for plenty of planes in the hangar.  Always in the market for that next stunter that might help my squares look that much more square.

Peter

[Steve Dwyer]

About 5 years back when we downsized and moved into a new area I decided to fly electric in the back yard. We have a number of kids in the neighborhood, mostly boys in the 6 to 12 age group. The day I was flying, and I only flew once in the back yard so not to annoy anyone, I wanted to determine what interest I could muster. Only two or three walked over from next door where a group was playing soccer to ask questions. Not long after while starting an engine outside the garage no one came to investigate and the same kids were riding bikes in front of the house.

Sometime later while talking to a neighbor he mentioned my flying in the yard, he said his son (12 years) one of the group, is very interested in airplanes. I said to myself, bingo, next time I saw the boy I asked him about his interest. He said he likes real airplanes but has no interest in models or building. I envisioned taking him along to the park and teaching him to fly and possibly building a model as a mentor did for me. Hopefully to help develop his interest.

My wife said “I’d be very careful with attempting to spend time with kids unsupervised without another adult present”. This is something to consider, unfortunately times have changed, and that was the end of that. I suspect I’m now the guy down the street that flies toy airplanes. I agree with Bob’s comments completely.

Steve

[Mike Griffin]

Why we stand alone. When most of us were kids flight was still new (mean modern flight) X-1, X-15, Gemini heck even to 1967 Apollo 1 flights. People were enamored with flight. As time passed it became an everyday occurrence. (no big deal) so now everyone is interested in VR and computing. Face it guys the past is the past. I will do my part to keep interests up but I must say in the metrics it's slowing down.

I agree 100% Robert.

Mike

[Ken Culbertson]

I agree 100% Robert.

Mike

Let's agree for the moment that Robert is right and bringing new blood into the sport is no longer a factor.  Would it not be to our benefit to arrange things so that we have as much fun amongst ourselves as possible?  Things like making Old Time Stunt, Old Timer Stunt where we use the design date of the flier instead of the plane!  Maybe the Overhead 8 needs to be banned from both the pattern and our thoughts.  Just thoughts.  Of those of us still flying, how much of the NATS format prevents us from participating?  Maybe we go back to rotating among closed Navy bases and use retired Navy officers for judges? 

Of course I am not serious but if we are fading away then why don't we as a group make up a collective bucket list and have some fun.  But, I don't think it has to be that way.  As far as I can tell, we have made very little effort to make any changes that make us appealing to younger generations, and it is not the kids, I am talking about the 30-50 bunch.  As much as it hurts, I think it is time for them to be telling us what this sport should look like.

Ken

[Dan McEntee]

Of course I am not serious but if we are fading away then why don't we as a group make up a collective bucket list and have some fun.  But, I don't think it has to be that way.  As far as I can tell, we have made very little effort to make any changes that make us appealing to younger generations, and it is not the kids, I am talking about the 30-50 bunch.  As much as it hurts, I think it is time for them to be telling us what this sport should look like.

Ken

    I have to ask, what do we change to make things appealing?  Most people in that age demographic don't know anything about model airplanes period, much less C/L stunt. Anything R/C is just a toy to most, play with it a little while then stack it on the shelf with all the other stuff they get bored with. A lot of it is in the mind set of recent generations and how they were raised and what they were exposed to while they were growing up. By the time they get to 30 -50 years old, most are set in their ways and beyond reach.  How do you make something appealing that they know nothing about ?  The electric aspect may seem appealing to some but there still has to be an airframe around the batteries and motor. And to top it off, it's difficult to learn and do!!! Most of us worked a long time to get to the levels we are at, and that was the attraction for many of us, working at it and achieving. Taking pride in our work and craftsmanship.  Overcoming obstacles to get to the next level, and managing to keep the fun in it along the way also.  99% of people today want things now and they want it easy and everyone wants a trophy at the end of the day! I worked part time at a hobby shop for 35 years and could see it coming the last 10 years I was at it. Even in the R/C car arena, almost everything is ready to run. It's difficult to find kits for those who want to assemble the car, and there was a time when it was the other way around. Traxxas got the ball rolling with the first ready to run cars,  (the Traxxas Cat was first I believe) and look at that company now. I am still amazed that there is still a big market for high dollar ready to run R/C stuff. Used stuff languishes on Craig's List and eBay because people don't want to fix anything. A large part of the price of an R/C car is the engineering that goes into making it as easy to use as possible. I'm trying to avoid the term idiot proof !!  Having said all of that you might think that to make it appealing, that is all the hobby industry has to do. Well, they have been doing that ever since the spring starter for Cox engines was invented and pre shaped and preformed parts were developed and were the first challenges to the Builder of the Model Rule. Then came iron on coverings. Look at what Jim Walker developed during his career in the pursuit of making things easy to increase sales. Now, can that be done with model airplanes? Yes and it has to a degree with foam ready to fly models in R/C, and they are more or less disposable, especially the lower quality products. If the customer can't fly it must be the products fault because they paid $200 for it!!Cox and the other RTF companies came and went in the same pursuit. What we do in stunt is just too over the top to hit any kind of general market even in the high dollar category. It boils down to the  people what they want to commit to. I like to use the 20 to 30 something age groups because with them they still have an open mind to new stuff, and have a little youthful exuberance to add to the mix. But I think they still have to have that "thing" in them that will be triggered by what they see and hear.
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[Mike Griffin]

I do not think this is a matter of demographics.  We are a incestuous group of people when it comes to our hobby.  We love to build and fly our toy airplanes and just cannot understand why we cannot get others interested and wonder if when we all die if the hobby will die with us.  Maybe.....maybe not.   I dont think it has anything to do with aviation being a ho hum endeavor or saving the hobby by targeting a certain age group.  It has to do with the dynamics of the world and how it has changed everyone's lives and how we are living it.  I do not think there is anything any of us can do to force the issue and return control line to the golden age that we want to perceive "back in the day".  We seem to be obsessed in how we can save he hobby.  Maybe it really doesn't need to be saved.

Mike

[Ken Culbertson]

Dan and Mike - I probably was not clear which gets worse every year.  I was talking about the 30-50 year olds within our ranks.  I don't think we are listening to them.  They are far more likely to know what their generations want than we are.  That is it.  I do agree that the hobby will be just fine as long as we let it evolve.

Ken

[Jared Hays]

Pissbrain is just trying to stir the pot guys lol

[Chris McMillin]

If Dan and Mark don't come to VSC they are ruining model aviation and all the youth won't come either.
Chris...

[wwwarbird]

 Face it folks, it's been time for quite a while now to drop the pipe dream about actually growing the participating C/L community. Think about how many threads you've read about this topic, all with the same dead-end discussion.
 Over the years most of us here have done all sorts of things to encourage newcomers to the hobby with countless donations of everything from necessary planes and equipment, personal time, transportation, money, tutelage etc. The list goes on and on, and overall way less than 1% of these efforts have ever stuck.
 We know who we are, and how much enjoyment, friendship and memories we've gotten out of the hobby, but today's general society just doesn't get it on any level and never will. It sucks, but for many years now we've been losing participants a lot faster than gaining new ones. That fact is inarguable and isn't going to change.
 It's no help that hobby shops are already nearly extinct and of the few that remain most of them don't even know what Control Line modeling is, nor do they care. Their gradual disappearances are for all the same reasons.
 I don't like this reality anymore than anyone else here but that's where we're at. It's time to quit hitting your hand with the hammer. For all practical purposes it's only a matter of time before Control Line modeling is gone, just get out there and enjoy it while you can.

[Leonard Bourel]

YUP   

[Ken Culbertson]

    I have to ask, what do we change to make things appealing?

Don't ask me, ask the younger generations in our ranks what they want.  Though they may be fewer they will be here longer and may have ideas that will bring others in their generations in.

ken       

[De Hill]

Do you realize that most of the younger C/L flyers in our ranks are in their late 40's and early 50's?

[Dave Harmon]

Do you realize that most of the younger C/L flyers in our ranks are in their late 40's and early 50's?

Yessir....we just had one today!!

Dave Harmon

[Ken Culbertson]

Do you realize that most of the younger C/L flyers in our ranks are in their late 40's and early 50's?

As I stated in an earlier post, that this is exactly the group I am talking about.

Ken