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General control line discussion => Open Forum => Topic started by: riley wooten on October 01, 2015, 01:58:42 PM
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This was brought up on another thread so I am adding my input. Remember this is from my experience, mostly in my area of West Texas in the early 50's, so I will go from there.. I flew my first combat contest in the fall of 1953. Almost everyone was flying Ringmasters/Fox 35s less lg. I had one so I just entered. It didn't take long to realize I was not a match for the older, more experienced pilots. I needed an advantage so it needs to be lighter.. I trimmed all the excess wood off the fuse and with Sterlings balsa you can guess the difference... Flew much better, but I do not remember what happened to it. Plane number 2 was built with a Veco Brave or Warrior wing (don't remember which) a friend gave me. The name of the game was wing loading so I put the tank in the wing, engine against the LE, minimum fuse, which meant short coupled to keep weight down... It flew much better and with Fox35 power was faster and held speed in turns better..
SIDE NOTE: Before I go on combat at this time had a 12" kill zone (one foot between back of plane and streamer).. In this area all combat when I started was flown on 52-1/2' lines although rules said 60'. This was done because the wind could be quite strong in the spring and we could still fly. Our only outside source of information was model mags. We did not have the advantage of all the clubs and modelers on the east and west coast so we were pretty much trial and error.... My search to build better planes led to getting every book on aircraft design I could find....
Plane #2 was flown in a contest in Amarillo in spring of 54 (my 2nd contest) In my first match I was involved in a mid air which left me with about 1/2 of the outboard wing intact. I wound up winning because the plane would fly in the high wind where others feared to go!!! I then flew in several local contest that year, don't remember much about them but the highlight came when the local hobby shop owner and friend took me and his son to the Southwest Championships in Dallas.. I was in shock as I had never seen anything like this (bleachers, trophy stands, vendors) and C/L was far bigger than any nats of today.
I wound up winning senior combat but don't remember what plane I flew or anything else except I was very impressed with the Whichahawks (sp) club........
About this time we started to see planes designed just for combat showing up..........
This is also the time I knew what I wanted in a combat plane. #1 With parts cut I needed to be able to frame it up in no more than an hour. #2 Material cost not more than $1.00 (remember this is early 50's) #3 It must be light but strong #4 It has to have an airfoil and wing loading to give good turns, but more important hold speed in turns as much as possible......
To be continued: (brain freeze)
RW
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Awesome start Riley, I can't wait for the rest.
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I wasn't born yet at this point in Riley's memory of 50s 60s combat history and I am fascinated by everything that went into flying in those days
I will be following this recollection closely as many of the names I remember from my youth have already passed and we are loosing a lot of this history
Thank you sir for doing this!
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Keep going! Keep going!
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Wow! This is awesome. Thank you so much
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Riley:
Wow... 1953... I was ONE year old!!
Amazing span of time/history you're sharing.
Thank you so much for taking the time to do this. I have already saved this first installment to a folder with your name on it.
Andre
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Thanks for taking the trouble to write all this down . Must bring back a few memmories .
file:///F:/Downloads/Demon%20%20CL.pdf
( from here http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1288656&page=48 )
Maybe thisll help !
mustve been maybe 12 when I flew the brothers OS 30 one . was on 60 ft lines with a 9 x 6 .
Was clean straight red tissue over silk .Got a scar from that prop . NEVER put your hand on the inside wing l.e. .
Some turkey might jerk the handle .
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1953! Saw my first Combat match at the Willow Grove Nats: Sterling Yak-9 (sans gear) vs. a dMECO Sportwing. Can't recall if either got a cut, but was amazed that they were flying over asphalt (or concrete?).
Many years later, at a VSC, finally met Riley Wooten. Such a nice, humble gentleman!
Please keep the history coming.....
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Attached is a list of Riley's published designs.
This list was developed after one of my friends asked me about Riley's designs.
Went to Barry Baxter's site and got most of the information.
The Pirate was the first combat plane I built that was not a kit. Still have fond memories of that plane and am considering building another one.
The Vampire, Sizzor & Shadow were flown by me. Still have the Shadow wing awaiting repair.
Howard Shenton
Mauldin, SC
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Thanks for the start Riley. 53 I was just getting a start in CL with 1/2A stuff. 56 got my first successful .35 CL plane going. 56 was also my first CL contest at a little airport west of Stanley KS that also had FF going. My Dad who did not fly or build models watched the combat flying all day. I was flying or trying to fly Rat Race. Was DQ'd when a wheel fell off. He was amazed also that they rebuilt a plane for the next round. So keep your memory banks in gear and let us know more.
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I ad my thanks for your willingness to do this post, Riley. The trip back is a true pleasure for many of us.
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Boy, this is harder than I thought.. Trying to remember events (even highlights) from 60 + years ago is tough. I am trying to take it a year at a time to hopefully get things in the right order. I'm sure I will miss some events and designs of the time......
1955 - The designs I remember about this time are the Halfast by Wild Bill and the Sweet Sweep by the Grogan brothers....... The spring of 55 is also the time I designed the Quickie.. That design didn't last very long before we replaced it with the Quicker.. The Quickie was designed just for the Fox 35 which were the only engines I had at the time.. The wing was the same as the Quicker with a little less cord.. I tried to stick to about a 4 to 1 aspect ratio on most of my planes. The 1/4" spar was located with the top on the rib center line so the motor mounts set on it giving 0 degrees thrust. The trailing edge slid through the two center ribs (fuselage sides) that made a flat box fuselage with the stab/elevator on wing center line. Upright motor with tank mounted behind. Quickies were very light (under 15 oz.) and performed very well. I flew that design most of 55 but don't remember too many details.. At most contest I only had one plane, two at most... This was of course before instant glue and plastic covering.. Covering and doping took a lot longer than building.. Also, if there was no contest we flew each other almost every weekend as long as we had planes.
The highlight again was the Southwestern Championships, Dallas, Labor day weekend. This was always the big one and a lot of fun for this ol country boy.....
I spent a lot of time flying left handed so I could switch hands to avoid line tangles (before safety thongs)...The flight against Bud Tenny of Dallas I will never forget. During the match we started into a tangle so I reached around and switched hands.. Only thing wrong - somehow I took the handle UPSIDE DOWN....
The next 8 seconds was like a bull ride, just off the ground on one side of circle to just off ground on the other, hahoo!!!(sp) Somehow I managed to get enough time to get it back in my right hand and continue the match - think I even won. Do not remember much else about combat the rest of the contest...
My high point of this contest was that I just finished my first "Texan" stunt plane, put decals and wheels on it in motel the night before.. Got up early the next mourning to test fly, trim and practice. I won open stunt and that was one of my proudest moments as there were several name fliers of that era flying.......
I will pause here and collect thoughts for 1956, My first Nats and new designs............
RW
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An afterthought before I forget... One thing I realized after going to meets in Dallas, ect. is that all of that early flying in West Texas on 52' lines was an advantage.. On 60' lines everything was in slow motion - wow!!
RW
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Hey Riley
Please include some information on the 1955 Pirate and article in Flying Models Magazine. I obtained a copy of that magazine and built a copy of the Pirate in 1955 at the age of 16. I am 75 years old at this time. The Pirate was my first real combat plane. I had always planned to build another, but never got around to it. In 1955, I used a K&B .35 greenhead for power and I guess I overpowered it. After a number of flights, the main spar in the inside wing broke at the cutout for the belcrank. The same thing happened to a flying buddy who built the Pirate. I planned to substitute 2 1/4x36 square spars for the 1/8 by 1x36 spar on the plan, should I build another. Other that that, I really liked the Pirate.....it was a fun sport flyer......and I might still get one built one day as I still have that magazine and the Pirate plans. This time, I will use one of my 1955 model Fox .35 stunt engines as you did back then, which might a better power choice for this plane. My thanks to you for the great designs over the years.....I have built and flown most of them. I was flying Vampires with Super Tigre G-21 .35's at Olathe, KS, in 1968 and won the 5th place trophy in Open Combat back behind you.....of course you took 1st place that year in Open flying Vampires using Fox .36x BB's. We are all looking forward to hearing more of your recollections from back in the day when Combat was a great adventure....the 1950's, 60's and 70's.
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Terrence,
So long ago I don't remember much about it. I think it may have been my first combat design from the ground up.. It flew very good but proved to take too long to build and was not strong enough. I think it is the plane I used to win the 54 Southwestern Championships at age 20. It did help me decide what my goals for a combat plane should be as mentioned earlier. If you build another, yes beef up the wing.....
RW
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All RW posts copied to folder!
Terrance:
You said...
We are all looking forward to hearing more of your recollections from back in the day when Combat was a great adventure....the 1950's, 60's and 70's.
I agree 99%! Only thing I alter mentally is the for me it's ... the 1950's, 60's and EARLY-MID 70's. They lost me with the foam w/clear film covered combat planes that begin to appear.
Good to see you posting here, Terrance. I remember you from the RCgroups C/L forum days.
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OOPS; before I go on I need to mention a couple of important events in this story.... In the fall of 1955 the LHS got two green head K&B 35s... I bought one, his son, age 15 got the other... Upon running in I noticed a lot of vibration. Removing the back plate I could see etching where the piston was touching it when the engine warmed up. Relieved bottom of piston slightly to stop this. While I had it apart I removed all sharp edges on shaft port. I used crocus cloth to polish crank o.d. for a smoother fit.... At this point I was a rookie on engine work so I don't know how much, if any it helped, but it did wonders for the vibration....... I do know it was a very good running engine, and quite an improvement power wise over a Fox stunt 35...... This led to the design of the Quicker. So named because it was quicker to build than the Quickie... The Quicker had a 9" cord and 36-1/2" wingspan (as plan in MAN).. This became pretty much the standard wing size in combat for quite a while.... What changed other than wing size was the motor mounts (3/8" x 1/2" maple) became the full length fuselage crutch, except for about the front 5" they were thinned to 1/8". This made a quicker building, stronger plane and as good a combat ship as you could find anywhere, and far better than most IMHO................
RW
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Riley, I have remains of my original Quicker that i built from California Models kit. Too far gone to resurrect so I want to build new. I have the plans. I measured wing chord from my kit built and it's 8 1/2 " The plans show 9 inches. Not sure which version should I build? Engine available either my JCS or Fox36XBB. Please comment. Thx. Lyle Spiegel
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Riley, I have remains of my original Quicker that i built from California Models kit. Too far gone to resurrect so I want to build new. I have the plans. I measured wing chord from my kit built and it's 8 1/2 " The plans show 9 inches. Not sure which version should I build? Engine available either my JCS or Fox36XBB. Please comment. Thx. Lyle Spiegel
Lyle, for the Fox36XBB or even the large case Johnson I would build the 9" cord, full 36" plus tips...
RW
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Riley, I'm delighted to see you write this!!! I probably got started a few years after you, but my earliest memories go back to the mid '50s.
I'm really pressed for time now - and have been for a couple of weeks - but the prior combat column brought back a lot of memories!
The courtesy lap, Carl Berryman, Bill James, the '63 Nats - man, I flew against both of those guys and could almost write a book about that year! I purchased my first Sneeker kit from you there, won the first contest (and a few more) with it the next year, later bought many kits directly from you (Flite Line), and got my engines directly from Duke Fox too. I'll write more later this week and put it in another topic so as not to detract from your recollections.
Incidentally, the most "hair, teeth and eyeballs" match I've ever seen was your defeat of a Canadian flying a high aspect ratio machine in the final match of the '68 Nats at Olathe, Kansas. Pity you had to re-glue the covering on one wing tip after that match ... :)
I could surely be mistaken, but I also seem to recall a match at the Nats where an obviously less-experienced pilot was having trouble starting or setting his engine. So his opponent - whoever he was - had his pit man hold his own airplane (with the engine running), then started and set the engine for the "rookie". Incredible sportsmanship ... reminded me of more typical combat contests when I started in the '50s, something that seemed to diminish greatly over the years.
I wonder who that pilot was?
Thanks Riley, for all your contributions to the event many of us had an absolute passion for!
Dennis
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Thanks for another installment Riley!
Dennis:
You said:
"The courtesy lap, Carl Berryman, Bill James, the '63 Nats - man, I flew against both of those guys and could almost write a book about that year!"
I would LOVE to ready anything you're willing to write about combat at the '63 Nats, especially your impressions of my old (late) friend Bill James.
Andre
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Dennis, it's ok to chime in here. I expected other peoples comments and hope it might add to the memories.... Before I am through I may rough a few feathers but I hope not.... I do know there is always someone who has a better mouse trap and/or an axe to grind..... That's what makes the world go around..
Remember, we don't all dance to the same tune..... Off my soapbox!!
RW
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My first NATS was Grand Prairie NAS in 64. I drew you in second round. Boy you were one tall guy and very friendly to this ex farm boy. Heard later you were eliminated next round when engine decided to go its own way. Then the next NATS was 70 at Glenview NAS Chicago. Lost first round because they made emergency ruling that we could not start our own engines. After I got to the engine found out had shorted glow plug. No combat at NATS after that. I still love to watch combat.
The reason I remember this so well is you put your arm around my shoulder and said you wanted to see what I had for power.
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WOW, I never flew Combat but loved watching, just too busy flying FF. This is just amazing to read, I did build a VooDoo to play with and loved it, I have another ready now but haven't flown it yet. Thanks Riley for doing this, it's an open window into a past part of modeling I always loved but never managed to participate in.
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Dennis, it's ok to chime in here. I expected other peoples comments and hope it might add to the memories.... Before I am through I may rough a few feathers but I hope not.... I do know there is always someone who has a better mouse trap and/or an axe to grind..... That's what makes the world go around..
Remember, we don't all dance to the same tune..... Off my soapbox!!
RW
Ok Riles, Share the story about the match that you were forced into an unnecessary rematch, and you marked the spot with your tool box where you would plant him. Then did it.
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OK, Bob I said I was not going to ruffle any feathers or embarrass(sp) anyone, besides this is way down in the story and may come up later...........
One thing about it some of these people may not still be with us but I think this happened in 66 so they could be much younger.. At any rate if I mention it no names will be included.......
RW
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This is an Epic!
Thank you so much for
doing this Mr. Wooten!
I'm fascinated.
Cheers!
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Riley said memories would be rekindled....
When my Dad was assigned to Tachikawa AFB, the family went along. The hobby shop owner in Ruston, La gave me a "going away" gift...he cut me a kit of the "Quicker". I built it in Japan using a Max 35 for power. It outflew anything over there, including my SweetSweep and Flight Streaks. And was quite different from the Carl Goldberg kit that came along much later...thicker airfoil.
Forty years later, the new Captain I was flying with in the DC-10, Tom Lowe, was featured in Stunt News, his son had rebuilt a PT19 model and taken a pic of it and sent it in a District Report. Tom was heavily involved in full scale Stearmans, had two of'em, but we talked mainly control line (during breaks, of course, of course, never while on duty).
Tom said as a kid he would drive all night, maybe three hundred miles, just to get a chance to fly against Riley. The few times he got to do so, he was lucky to last fifteen seconds, but, it was worth every bit of the effort.
Thank you for this thread, Riley,
dale g
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In early 1956 we started building and flying Quickers.. Our LHS had a back room full of woodworking equipment he let me use so he and I cut a lot of semi kits.
Here I must stop and say thanks to Harry Furman the owner of that shop. Without him I may have never started competition flying. He carried me and his son Greg to almost all contest in the early days and paid for most of it. He is now long gone but not forgotten......... Our group was flying in all the local contest in 56 when we heard the Nationals would be held in Dallas... We had to go!! This was our chance to see how the BIG BOYS did it.. I thought we would learn a lot but didn't think we would probably win anything. I actually thought I had a better chance of placing in stunt than combat... Harry and Greg Furman, Curtis Graves, Bruce Brown and I entered and started making plans to attend... OUR FIRST NATS - BID "D" HERE WE COME.... 56 Nats coming up......
RW
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This is great stuff! I would be interested in hearing what motors you guys used, as the years progressed, and why. Including strong and weak points of motors from each era. I have been having fun getting to run these motors in appropriate planes for a couple of years now. Mostly Foxes but also a Greenhead (pulls like a tractor!) and G-21. Thanks TS
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August 1956 we get to NAS, Grand Prairie !! WOW, I can't believe this; a great big hanger full of models and modelers. This is above anything I could imagine and way above what I expected....If you never got to attend a Navy Nats you do not know what you missed...As a 22 year old from rural west Texas I was so overwhelmed ... It was just a feeling I can't describe, the hanger, the people, the Navy barracks (hot as hell in Texas in August but fun), sos breakfast, lots of water and salt pills.... Met all the people I read about in mags, got our equipment ready and did some practice flying... Greg, our junior and a brash kid was always starting something, they were trashing our Quickers............ The interaction was unbelievable, but something special........
Can you believe going to a Nats with only one engine you would call competitive? Unheard of today but that is what I had, the one Green head K & B.....
We will get into some of the designs present next post.
RW
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There was a large group from the Chicago/Indiana area flying the new Midwest Omega kit (or soon to be a kit). Not flying but leading the charge was Frank Garcher, president of Midwest. All the money was for this group to win it all with the new design.... Met Frank and got to know him over the years and did business with him until his passing.. Big Stoop, as he was known was a great guy and a big promoter of modeling, all modeling...... Years later we shipped containers of balsa to him from the plantation in Ecuador...
The combat models I remember other than the Omega were Sweet Sweeps and Halfast. Most of the rest were profiles of various shapes, most of which I do not remember.... They made fun of our Quickers with remarks like "looks like they were run over by a truck" because they were flat except for the big shark rudder.......... The competition begins and we were flying over concrete runways, and did I mention it was HOT... Saw my first flyaway when a handle was pulled from some ones hand. Plane (Sweet Sweep I think) circled around the handle/lines until out of sight...Silence and finally we see plane coming down, still circling in a glide. It actually landed in the circle from which it departed.. Not even a broken prop!!!!
I don't remember much about any of our flights, but Harry and I pitted for all our group so we were quite busy..... When all the smoke cleared I won open and Don Bucanan from Amarillo was third... Bruce Brown won senior and Greg Furman was second in junior...With tongue in cheek I will say Greg was very aggressive and it cost him first.. All the guys were flying Quickers and it was almost a sweep.. I could not believe it...... We had won and won big......
I had won, over concrete using the same plane, prop combo the entire time.............
After my win Hi Johnson asked me if I would be interested in running Johnsons if he supplied them.. For a guy with only one combat engine you know my answer.. Only if I can win with them I added. That started a long friendship and good times to come which I will touch on later....
RW
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Ah, yes...the Navy Nats. My favorite subject. As Riley said, if you weren't there, you've no idea what you missed!
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For those who wonder, I have to keep post short or lose my attention span.. I still have to go back and pickup something I missed or will add later as is...
Also, I keep doing something stupid or by accident deleting post which I have to then do over. If I keep them short I have less double takes.........
In my next post I want to tell about my stunt experiences at my first Nats, and hope someone has records of scores of that event.. I would like to know if they are as I remember......
RW
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Nothing cheers you up like having three quarters of an hour of an epistle DEMATERIALISE . :o
Might pay to use a pencil to throw an outline on a pad , and fill it in from that , as you go . Like a Author .
Whenever I get something down that I think should win the Booker Prize , it either dematerializes or they think im on the turps . LL~ S?P D>K H^^ .
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Yes, nothing like spending 10 minutes typing something to have it disappear into cyber space never to be seen again. Where's that old Smith-Corolla typewriter? HB~>
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Ah, yes...the Navy Nats. My favorite subject. As Riley said, if you weren't there, you've no idea what you missed!
Mike( and others) :
By no means am I trying to high jack this thread - but since Riley brought it up and you commented, I couldn't resist.
Perhaps had the Navy kept the NATS going, participation in the hobby would be significantly higher than it is today. And, I don't mean with quad copters.
Now- back to another installment of " Riley's Recollections".
Hey, word is Riley "cut" the chow line at Olathe !(lol)
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Riley, use your email client to do the drafts then copy and paste into the forum. Put you own email address in your address book, create an email to yourself and do your typing in the email text editor. You can then either save it or even send it to yourself. Much less chance of loosing everything due to an internet glitch.
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Hi Riley:
You mentioned the Lester Grogan-designed Sweet Sweep in your recollections. Can you give us any more information about this plane, when it was designed and how it flew? I've heard that Lester was confined to a wheel chair. Did someone else fly his design? I've also heard that this ship was protested by a competitor for having streamer catching devices on the wing (the wing fences). The story I've heard indicates that when the fences were directed by AMA to be removed, the plane lost a lot of its performance. Is any of this true? I'm building one (albeit electric...) and would like to know more about the ship and its designer.
Thank you for taking the time to write about your life in Combat. It's important that we all chronicle those days to fill in the fabric of history of our sport. Kudos on doing this extremely well here!
As a side note, I flew nothing but Quickers back in the day, and even flew one that had a flame paint job designed by Red Rinehardt! Red hand sketched the flames onto the wing of my freshly covered, red quicker using a soft pencil, and then I filled in the flames with a brush and yellow dope. The red was made from a dye that I put into clear dope. When I brushed on the yellow, some of the underlying red came through the yellow and augmented the flame look very nicely! Happy mistake. Then Red did some more detailing to the edges of the flames.
Since I lived only a few miles north of Willow Grove in 1961, I naturally flew in that year's Nats that were contested at the Navel station there. One of my school friend's father was a high ranking officer who was put in charge of Nats promotion for the Navy. He asked my father if I could be used for promotion of the Nats in our Philly area. One of the things that I was asked to do was to pose with my flamed Quicker for newspaper photos. I still have that "Official Navy Photograph" somewhere and I'll try to dig it up and post it on this thread.
Another promotion was to have me appear on the "Morgan in the Morning show on Philly TV. I've written a piece about that day in an autobiography that I'm working on. I'll post that section here now...
We were still living in the Doylestown area in 1961 when the AMA Nats returned to Willow Grove, as they had every four years since 1953. One of my schoolmates was the son of one of the base big wigs, and he also had an interest in model airplanes. His father was apparently put in charge of helping to promote the Nats in the region, and he asked me if I would consider appearing – along with a couple of other local youths – on the “Morgan in the Morning” television show that originated in Philadelphia. Wow! A chance to be on TV! That was pretty impressive to a young man in those days.
The big day arrived and we were driven to the television station in an official Navy staff car. I was asked to bring along an airplane and all the necessary items I would need to start the engine on the sound stage. Remember, there were no mufflers in those days. I chose to bring my prized Quicker (described earlier) with the flame paint job. It was fitted with a Johnson .35 engine, and those of you who have run them know that it is by far not the quietest engine on the planet. I remember mentioning that to the person who was assigned to direct us, but he said not to worry.
The big moment was nearing. The Morgan in the Morning show was what everyone in the entire area watched when they got up in the morning. I was about to have my few minutes of everlasting fame. Everyone would see me on TV, and I’d be the envy of all my friends. I was told to fuel the model and be ready to crank it up when the program returned from commercial. I remember being cued to be ready to flip the prop. I had the battery leads connected to the engine, and got a bump on the prop. And then . . . Well, you probably won’t believe this next part, but I swear it’s true. At just the moment that we were supposed to come back on air, the program was preempted for coverage of Gus Grissom’s Mercury space flight!
The host (I forgot his first name) Mr. Morgan personally apologized to us for not being able to get us on air. We were not re-scheduled, and that was that.
I had many Quickers in that era, Riley, but that flamed paint job version was by far my favorite. Great design and one that will live on in my heart for the span of my life.
Bob Hunt
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MAN!!! I am lovin' this thread!!!!!
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Hi Riley:
You mentioned the Lester Grogan-designed Sweet Sweep in your recollections. Can you give us any more information about this plane, when it was designed and how it flew? I've heard that Lester was confined to a wheel chair. Did someone else fly his design? I've also heard that this ship was protested by a competitor for having streamer catching devices on the wing (the wing fences). The story I've heard indicates that when the fences were directed by AMA to be removed, the plane lost a lot of its performance. Is any of this true? I'm building one (albeit electric...) and would like to know more about the ship and its designer.
Thank you for taking the time to write about your life in Combat. It's important that we all chronicle those days to fill in the fabric of history of our sport. Kudos on doing this extremely well here!
As a side note, I flew nothing but Quickers back in the day, and even flew one that had a flame paint job designed by Red Rinehardt! Red hand sketched the flames onto the wing of my freshly covered, red quicker using a soft pencil, and then I filled in the flames with a brush and yellow dope. The red was made from a dye that I put into clear dope. When I brushed on the yellow, some of the underlying red came through the yellow and augmented the flame look very nicely! Happy mistake. Then Red did some more detailing to the edges of the flames.
Since I lived only a few miles north of Willow Grove in 1961, I naturally flew in that year's Nats that were contested at the Navel station there. One of my school friend's father was a high ranking officer who was put in charge of Nats promotion for the Navy. He asked my father if I could be used for promotion of the Nats in our Philly area. One of the things that I was asked to do was to pose with my flamed Quicker for newspaper photos. I still have that "Official Navy Photograph" somewhere and I'll try to dig it up and post it on this thread.
Another promotion was to have me appear on the "Morgan in the Morning show on Philly TV. I've written a piece about that day in an autobiography that I'm working on. I'll post that section here now...
We were still living in the Doylestown area in 1961 when the AMA Nats returned to Willow Grove, as they had every four years since 1953. One of my schoolmates was the son of one of the base big wigs, and he also had an interest in model airplanes. His father was apparently put in charge of helping to promote the Nats in the region, and he asked me if I would consider appearing – along with a couple of other local youths – on the “Morgan in the Morning” television show that originated in Philadelphia. Wow! A chance to be on TV! That was pretty impressive to a young man in those days.
The big day arrived and we were driven to the television station in an official Navy staff car. I was asked to bring along an airplane and all the necessary items I would need to start the engine on the sound stage. Remember, there were no mufflers in those days. I chose to bring my prized Quicker (described earlier) with the flame paint job. It was fitted with a Johnson .35 engine, and those of you who have run them know that it is by far not the quietest engine on the planet. I remember mentioning that to the person who was assigned to direct us, but he said not to worry.
The big moment was nearing. The Morgan in the Morning show was what everyone in the entire area watched when they got up in the morning. I was about to have my few minutes of everlasting fame. Everyone would see me on TV, and I’d be the envy of all my friends. I was told to fuel the model and be ready to crank it up when the program returned from commercial. I remember being cued to be ready to flip the prop. I had the battery leads connected to the engine, and got a bump on the prop. And then . . . Well, you probably won’t believe this next part, but I swear it’s true. At just the moment that we were supposed to come back on air, the program was preempted for coverage of Gus Grissom’s Mercury space flight!
The host (I forgot his first name) Mr. Morgan personally apologized to us for not being able to get us on air. We were not re-scheduled, and that was that.
I had many Quickers in that era, Riley, but that flamed paint job version was by far my favorite. Great design and one that will live on in my heart for the span of my life.
Bob Hunt
Agggggghhhh! What a let down Bobby. But what a great story! I can't wait to read more of this on going saga. ;D
Cheers, Jerry
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Bob R
I don't know enough about computers to even know what you are telling me, sorry....
Bob H
That is a great story and reminds me of my colors on Quickers. A club member, Bobby Levine's, family owned the Levine department store chain and he came up with all this great yellow silk.. He gave me an almost lifetime supply so all My Quickers had clear doped yellow wings with "pink" fuselage/tail section by using what I thought was a red dye in clear dope that came out pink....... It was so different that I sort of used it as a trade mark.......... Bad thing is the dye faded very quickly in the sun, but it was light....
BTW; I am at team trials watching some good flying!!
RW
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Bob, Lester Grogan was wheel chair bound but I did not know him well.. He was a speed team member who I believe was the engine man and plane builder..
Their team was good. I saw him fly a couple of times with someone helping position the wheelchair.. How or when he happened to design the Sweet Sweep I do not know but think it was around 55. Maybe one of the Dallas area guys can fill us in. I have been told it did not fly near as well without the fences..... The only one I flew had them and flew well but not what I would call a great combat design, besides it was too hard to build..............
RW
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"Sweet Sweep" was designed by Lester Grogan and Ken Hale, the plans drawn by Leland Morton. When the Ruston Hobby Hawks went to Longview in about 1956, they got their clocks cleaned by "Sweet Sweeps". Cliff Stinson and Chuck Anderson brought a kit back home with them after the contest, which they quickly built. It was powered by the new "Combat Fox" 35 (silver head). Sweeps were far ahead of anything we had, but, what we had were "Halfasts" and "Ringmasters" sans landing gear, maybe an occasional "Reactor". I ordered a kit from L&H Hobby Shop in Seagoville, Tx. I was lucky to receive it as I wrote Sea Gull Ville on the envelope. $5.50. The Grogan brothers (who I think had MS, flew from wheel chairs, there were news articles about them) cut the kits on a band saw, the stories and flyers who hung out at L&H Hobby shop would fill a book.
The junior combat kid to beat in the Dallas area at the time was Kenneth Knotts. His yellow Sweet Sweeps with Torp Green heads on pen bladder pressure against guys like me were like fighters shooting down C-47s. Cannon fodder. (I think Kenneth may be the President of the Benbrook RC club now, not positive about that). Another kid about that time was Dee Rice, who flew Bud Tenney designed combat ships. (Tennyplanes?) They were about equal, I'm told.
The "Sweep" had four "aerodynamic dams" that added line tension overhead. They also stuck out in front of the leading edge and helped snag streamers. AMA quickly added a ruling that disallowed "protuberances" forward of the leading edges of combat planes' wings. That's where I learned to spell "protuberances"
I mentioned earlier I took a "Quicker" kit to Japan, I also took a Sweep. If one looks up Junior C-D Speed at the Baton Rouge Contest in 1957, or was it '56, one will discover that a Fox 35 powered "Sweep" placed Third with a speed of 77.22 mph, half the speed of First and Second place....
That's about all I got, Riley...dg
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I am going to get away from combat for a moment to finish my experience of my first Nats in 1956 in stunt... I was in the company of all my heroes and what an experience. Palmer, Aldridge, et all were all there.. I only remember flying one flight. Maybe I was at combat, don't know or just forgot....... Anyway that flight I remember well. About 1/3 of the way through I had the feeling I was nailing it and as I looked around the circle I saw that all the other fliers were watching........ I knew it was a good flight but I had to land. Since I flew from grass all the time the gear was too far forward and it was hard to land on hard top.. Anyway I screwed up the landing really bad and was told I received 2 points on it... If I really only received 2 points my moment of glory was ruined.....
I wound up in either 5th or 6th place about 6 points out of first. I remember the scores were very close and I was told I had scored the highest flight score, except for landing. If someone knows where to find the records from the 56 nats or if they exist I would like to know how to see them..... I would love to see if all this is as I remember it.......
We will get back to Hi Johnson, Carl Berryman and the birth of the Quicker kit next..........
RW
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After the 56 nats I talked to Hi a lot and he sent me a couple of engines to try.. They ran and started good but did not have the power of my green head K & B.
The first thing I did was to ream the venture until it was paper thin.. All of my test records and specs were lost in the LS fire so I can't give you any numbers... I filed the bottom to make as much of a rectangle as possible. The shaft opening was made longer to the rear and the shaft retimed with extended opening and closing times.. (do not remember the numbers and they were probably changed over time) Took weight off crank throw side, lightened rod and relieved piston skirt. Smoothed all sharp corners then ran it in rich but at high rpm. It was now better than the green head with more torque, but have to try it against a really good plane/pilot in competition.. That chance will come soon..........
RW
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Hi Riley,
Is this the stunt flight you finished and George Aldrich walked over and said" Who the hell are you?"
I am going to get away from combat for a moment to finish my experience of my first Nats in 1956 in stunt... I was in the company of all my heroes and what an experience. Palmer, Aldridge, et all were all there.. I only remember flying one flight. Maybe I was at combat, don't know or just forgot....... Anyway that flight I remember well. About 1/3 of the way through I had the feeling I was nailing it and as I looked around the circle I saw that all the other fliers were watching........ I knew it was a good flight but I had to land. Since I flew from grass all the time the gear was too far forward and it was hard to land on hard top.. Anyway I screwed up the landing really bad and was told I received 2 points on it... If I really only received 2 points my moment of glory was ruined.....
I wound up in either 5th or 6th place about 6 points out of first. I remember the scores were very close and I was told I had scored the highest flight score, except for landing. If someone knows where to find the records from the 56 nats or if they exist I would like to know how to see them..... I would love to see if all this is as I remember it.......
We will get back to Hi Johnson, Carl Berryman and the birth of the Quicker kit next..........
RW
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Pick up on Labor Day, Dallas, Southwestern Championships, probably around 60 entries and a lot of good combat fliers.. I was still flying a Quicker with that green head because it was as good or better than the competition. Remember the K & B mounted upright had the exhaust pointed in, was loud and sounded mean...... The Johnson on the other hand was much quitter and just did not give the same impression..... The fastest and best looking plane there was a flying wing design out of Houston called the Wingmaster, I think, powered by a hot green head... Do not remember his name but he was looking good as was the plane.. The bracket wound down and we were to meet in the next round.. Decision time; do I keep flying the green head, or put the Johnson to the test..... It was the right decision as the Johnson had 3 to 5 mph level and really showed up in the turns, out pulling the GH badly..... I was sold and never ran the GH again....
The 57 Nats was in Philly. I could not afford to go but Hi Johnson who was also not going asked me to come and stay with him for a few days. It was a great time, I learned a lot and he introduced me to Bill Baker of California Models.. After visiting with Bill he decided to kit the Quicker and that is how the kit version came about. My only regret is that we did not use the original version... This is also the time Hi asked me to work with him on R & D.. This was a lot of fun and led to the big case Johnson CS, BB, and SS as well as the RC versions............
RW
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Hi Riley,
Is this the stunt flight you finished and George Aldrich walked over and said" Who the hell are you?"
De,
No, unless my memory has completely left me that was the year before at Southwesterns in Dallas when I won open stunt.........
RW
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Riley,
A good story; I've remembered that one over the years.
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The time frame gets a little fuzzy but I think it was either fall of 56 or spring of 57. We had a contest in Lubbock with it's usual large turnout of good combat fliers. Most were flying Quickers but one guy I did not know was flying a Halfast. He did not do well and some time in the mid afternoon he came up to me and said " I am Carl Berryman and I have to have plans to that airplane". Needless to say at 6'8" Carl is an imposing figure.. I explained that at this point no plans exist... He said I have to have something so I can build Quickers if I am going to fly combat....Basically, in a nice way he said I am not leaving Lubbock without them. My response was "follow me to my house after the contest and I will get you what is necessary to build them"... He and his wife and 2 young kids followed me home.. Our wives got along great and as they fixed something to eat I sketched a set of working plans as we talked models and combat....
It felt like I had known him forever and I remember thinking "what a neat guy"... Our personalities matched just right and we became great friends. I told him a lot about my thoughts on combat, important do's and don'ts, where he lives and let's get together and fly and so on.. Turns out he had just moved to Amarillo so any contest in the direction of Lubbock or beyond he would come down and go with me... Over the next few months we went to either 7 or 8 contest in the area together and wound up flying for first in every one.... As I said earlier I did not go to the Philly nats in 57 but Carl and I started making plans for Glenview (Chicago) in 58.........
RW
PS: Another great guy by the name of Marvin Denny also lived In Amarillo at the time and always flew with us......
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And I tried to fly combat at one time or another with each of them. Riley was the first. All three of you were gentlemen to this farm kid.
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Riley, I've just copied all this of so I have it permanently, I hope that meets with your approval, this is GREAT stuff!
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Riley, I've just copied all this of so I have it permanently, I hope that meets with your approval, this is GREAT stuff!
Randy, I have no problem with anyone coping any or all if they so desire... Any feedback is also welcome.....
RW
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Randy, I have no problem with anyone coping any or all if they so desire... Any feedback is also welcome.....
RW
Thanks, I am really enjoying your narratives. Not a combat flyer myself but always interested and this is fascinating.
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This narrative is great because we all remember the fun and just want a taste of it again. I predict the interest in Vintage Combat is on the verge of something big; simply because the aircraft were so simple to build, store, and of course- a blast to fly.
We had an awesome time at the recent GSCB Vintage Combat Festival. No trophies, no blood- just fun, laughs, and camaraderie.
When Riley completes his narrative, maybe Scarinzi will do one, too. One big problem- Larry doesn't use a computer and to take notes from his recollections( he's very sharp and recalls everything) first hand, feed 'em to us all here... well, that would take some serious time because Larry is silly and easily sidetracked; be it in person or on the phone.
Then again, those of us who know him best wouldn't have him any other way.
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Riley,
Thank you for doing this. This is very nice to read, and it's great that you keep updating these stories. It's wonderful for us guys who weren't around yet during this time frame! #^
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I can't stand it!!!!!! I'm ordering some Quicker plans from Barry Baxter and gonna break in my brand NOS CS!!!!
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As I look back 58 turned out to be a very different year. All the guys from the 56 nats were gone.. Harry Furman still owned the LHS but was going through a divorce.. His son Greg had discovered girls and cars. Bruce Brown was now flying choppers in the army and Don had moved to Albuquerque.... However, two new beginners, Wayne Welch and Don King were very interested in combat so I had two new flying buddies, though they did not think they wanted to go to contest yet... We did fly a lot and had all night building sessions at my house. During one of these sessions Wayne built what I will call a sidewinder Quicker..
Same wing, tail and moments but with a profile fuse... I wanted to get away from the profile which led to the Voodoo style motor mount and the "Custom Quicker"..... Twin booms with same stab/elevator and moments.... I think only 2 or 3 were built and one was expoded wind flying in 50 mph winds (another story)...
But wait, I am getting ahead of myself, the 58 Nats and our trip to Chicago... I pick up Carl in Amarillo and we head out on the later famous "Route 66" to Glenview NAS... For once we have several Quickers and a couple of stunt planes... As I remember we drove straight through, with a few breaks for fuel and food.. I remember a lot of small towns and seems it took forever to get there, but gave us a lot of time to visit and talk airplanes and try to stay alert........
Checking in, getting bunk assignments and setting up in the hanger and we are through.. Tomorrow we can do what we came for; fly and practice.... We can also see what others are flying, make new friends and greet old ones... We were young and this is exciting!!!!!!!!!
RW
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Just to be clear, Carl and I were flying stock Quickers at the 58 nats... The variants came after the nats, were kept close and not shared because we did not want to cause problems with kit sales and California Models....
RW
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1958 will be Carl's first Nationals and my second... I am getting a few stunt practice flights in every day and we are checking out the combat equipment..... We were using pen bladder tanks in plastic bottles strapped behind the engine to feed our Johnson 35s.... To my knowledge we were the only ones using bladders..
Our Quickers were running 105 - 106 mph without streamers, about 100 pulling a full one.... Most everyone else 85 to 95 at best.... About this time Carl coined the phrase "If it's quicker than a QUICKER it's a quicker QUICKER".... I will probably catch hell for this and regret saying it but I dubbed this the year of the lead sled.. It seems most of the planes, especially from the east were nylon covered, tough tanks... The T Square and Halfast type wings were popular......
The night before combat started the first round matching was posted so everyone would know their flight times... I think there were 158 open fliers listed..
Carl was flying good and he dispatched his first couple opponents easily....... I don't know what happened to him, when or how he lost.. It was probably some kind of bad luck as he was flying very well; I just do not remember....... My first match is one I remember well and was just one of those things that happen once in a lifetime.. For some reason this flight must have been hyped the night before; I don't know.......As we were getting ready to go I looked up and the circle had spectators almost all the way around it, 2 to 3 deep in some parts... I was shocked and did not know what to think.. We hit the air and the match started. I attacked the other plane, fell in right at the end of the streamer and with quite a bit of extra speed ran right up the streamer and cut off the knot
The thing I have never done or seen since is the plane went up the streamer taking 1" cuts all the way leaving the air full of little pieces of streamer...........
It was quite a sight, the people were clapping and yelling and I thought "what a way to start a Nats"
RW
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After this start things were pretty calm..... The one problem we had was the limit of our engine run. The only container we could find to hold the bladder only allowed an engine fun of about 2-1/2 min. For this reason we needed to start our engine with less than 30 seconds left in starting time. This way only one pit would allow us to complete the 5 min flight. This is usually not important since most flights with both planes in the air last less than 2 minutes; you just want the opponent in the air......... The problems could begin when this was not the case.. Carl and I both made the finals day and I was in the semi finals... I drew a T Square flown by William Arrowsmith (at least I think that was his name but do not know for sure) He won that year but I never heard anything about him since.. It was nylon covered with 1/2" sq. nylon motor mounts... To each his own, but in my opinion it was not a very good performing plane, but I lost..........
I know I was up one or two cuts to none.. There was so much difference in speed and the Square slowed so bad it was hard to judge closing speed.. To make a long story short I hit him and broke my inboard wing and could not go back up. I don't remember the exact rules in use that year but when he could go back up he won..... I could fly for 3rd but since I needed to be at the stunt circle I did not fly, so I finished 4th..............
I screwed up combat so off to stunt; a couple of practice flights and see if I can qualify for the stunt finals.........
RW
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Riley, I new Arrowsmith and flew against him many times in stunt and combat. He was a very good stunt pilot but I do not remember him as a very good combat guy. I met him at contest all over NYS and Penn in the 1950's and 60's. I lived not far from the home of the T-Square and at contest my two friends and I would have six combat model total but there would be 30 T-Square and they would win by attrition. When the quicker came out in the magazine I was flying them a week later and started to win against all the flying wings. We turned the motor on it's side within a few months.
Ed
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Riley, I new Arrowsmith and flew against him many times in stunt and combat. He was a very good stunt pilot but I do not remember him as a very good combat guy. I met him at contest all over NYS and Penn in the 1950's and 60's. I lived not far from the home of the T-Square and at contest my two friends and I would have six combat model total but there would be 30 T-Square and they would win by attrition. When the quicker came out in the magazine I was flying them a week later and started to win against all the flying wings. We turned the motor on it's side within a few months.
Ed
Ed, what you are saying pretty well agrees with my thoughts.. The knock em down and hope you survive is not my idea of combat.. I think that Nats led to the rule change and the collision zone the next year (1959) If you remember that involved about a 3' string and a collision card then another 3' string and the kill card. If you cut the string between the plane and collision card or hit the other plane you lost.. I may have the year wrong or it was a one year rule because I don't think that was the rule in 1960.. All these rules and years run together but they changed often...........
RW
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The year I got a second in combat at Wichita KS contest in 64we had three guys from Topeka that flew combat that way if they got up first. First round the first guy drilled my Big Iron which was fiber glassed center section. Killed his engine and he could get it restarted. The Big Iron just kind of slowed a little then sped back up. The second guy second round tried the same thing with same results. Amazing how well a fiber glass job will take punishment. The third guy I asked him if he was going to fly like his team mates. No answer, so I drilled him. Didn't know there could be that many pieces of a combat plane. Needless to say the Big Iron was done and I pulled another plane out. Was going for first with a guy from Oklahoma. We both got up with the sorriest runs a guy could ever get. He asked me if I wanted to land and try again. I told him if I land that Fox it would never restart(experience with this engine and never could figure out why). So somehow we started the match with loops and other stuff, after about 3 or4 minutes my streamer disappeared and I started congratulate him when he said how did that happen. Anyway the word had finally gotten around about those guys and they quit flying.
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We pick up at 58 Nats and I am headed to the stunt circles to try to qualify for finals top 20.. I know this is about combat history but bear with me as we talk about the stunt squabble at the 58 Nats... Most do not recognize me as a has been stunt flyer but I did finish 6th or higher in all the Nats I flew stunt in...... I did get in one flight and was lucky enough to qualify for the finals with the highest score.....
On finals day I flew my best flight in the middle of the afternoon.. I put in a very good flight and was leading by a big margin. With one hour to go I was still
holding that margin and thought I had it won. As I remember all the top fliers had already flown so I was feeling good about the outcome.... Then, boom, the scores ballooned the last hour and the last guys all scored way high... There was a protest mounted and a demand that the finals be flown over.. The stunt guys were all up in arms.. It was a big mess with a lot of hard feelings.... Not being one of the regulars I was not involved, but I have always thought I was robbed; and it soured me on flying stunt at the Nats... Besides stunt and combat finals were always on the same day back then so it was hard to do both and do them justice..
Enough of the soap box, but some time a guy just has to vent!!!
RW
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Very much enjoying this thread, Riley. Thank you so much for taking the time and sizable effort to do it!
As for your experience at Stunt at the '58 Nats:
ANY event, not just C/L Stunt, that relies on judges to determine a good performance has the "subjective quotient" that must be factored-in. I've only been involved in a few events (non C/L) that relied upon subjective judging to determine the best. Even though I placed 1st or 2nd more often than not placing, I grew a bit dissatisfied with events that rely on subjective judging.
That's the cool thing about C/L combat, motorcycle racing, etc: When the flag drops the BS stops.
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What turned me off on combat was when in 70 the AMA made the ruling we could not start our own engines.
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I would like to get into the late 58 - 59 time period when a lot was happening and changes were taking place. I would like to get with Carl Berryman to make sure we are on the same page on some topics and time frame.. Trouble is, I can't seem to reach him with the contact info I have so it must be out of date....
Can anyone help??
RW
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What turned me off on combat was when in 70 the AMA made the ruling we could not start our own engines.
You haven't read the rules since 1970?
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Riley, when I was in the Air force in 1966 and stationed in Altus, OK. I met Carl there, He was the owner of Texaco Station. I did a google search on Carl Berryman and there is a Carl Berryman living in Altus, OK. If he is 85 years old now it just could be him.
Roger Greene
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Riley, first of all, this post is probably my all time favorite of my years on stunthanger! Thank you for this, I'm eating it up.
Next, you haven't mentioned the Whatzit at all. I had Duane Kassa almost force me to go the Whatzit in the summer of '59 at Navy Memphis using a Torp greenhead he prepped for me and it was a killer. I stopped flying after that season until I left the Navy in '62, so failed to follow combat until around 64 after I married. By then the good old Whatzit was history in the circles.
Thanks again for these articles, once Randy Ryan gets them all organized I'm going to beg the finnal draft from him. (Or drool all over his computer keyboard.)
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The Whatzit will come up soon in 59 Nats
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Will, since you brought it up I might as well tell the Whatzit story... Bill Winter the long time editor of Model Airplane News called and wanted a combat design to publish.. He wanted something different but simple and wanted it asap so I took a Quicker and mounted the tail above the wing.. With that tail do you call it a flying wing or not; thus the Whatzit name. One was quickly built and tested and it flew quite well. It was published but I have no idea of the month or year...
The diamond airfoil came into being for the same basic reason (for mag article and simple, straight forward building which was good for newbies) That said Howard Henry won 2nd in open combat at the 63 Nats flying a DEMON (diamond airfoil)..
Cleveland Models later wanted to and did kit the Whatzit. The kit quality was not very good but sold pretty well... They paid me $50.00 up front and still owe
me for the balance of the contract... I'm sure the check is in the mail!!!
One of my favorite designs built about this time was a tapered wing, extended tail flying wing. Only one was ever built but my memory of it is that it was one of the best planes I ever flew. There was an after hours unofficial combat contest flown in 59. I did not fly but loaned it to a friend and he won with it.. I must have given it to him after he won with it as I do not remember it since......
RW
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Hey Riles, throw in, to the best of your recollection, what kinds of airplanes you saw in the pits on these events. The best to the worst. How many years did the Ringmaster or Flite Streak make it to competitions? Did you see suction tanks still competing with pressure tanks or even bladders? I know your were always on the latest technologies at the time, but what was everybody else doing at the time?
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OK, you are testing my memory now.........
1956 - The better planes; Quicker, Sweet Sweep, Omega and Halfast; the rest, a variety of profiles such as RM, Clown and home brews. I remember the best a whole lot better than the worst. As far as I know we were all running draw fuel systems that year......
1957 - Could not afford to go to Nats so don't know.. Someone might fill us in on this??
1958 - Carl and my Quickers on pen bladder the best.. T Square probably no worse than the same old variety of profiles and stronger, but not what I would call a good plane.. Still several Halfast.. I think most were now on case pressure... Sure I am missing some good planes and if so remind me..............
1959 - That year I think I flew a Quicker, a stabilator plane, a diamond airfoil and a Whatzit but not sure. At that time a Calif. Nats was almost all Calif entries, at least in combat.. John Barr had his Renagade and the Hi Johnson gang had E-Gads.. Don't remember the rest except (and I will probably regret
saying this) the competition was not very good.. Most everyone on pressure from now on.....
1960 - Most all now stabilator or similar type planes on case pressure or bladders.. Of course there are always those who want to be different and we should be glad that someone always thinks there is a better mouse trap.........
1961 - Did not go to Nats but do not think anything much changed!!!!!!
1962 - From now through most of the 60's it was a lot of Voodoos, plus Big Irons and Nemisis type on bladder tanks that we saw.. Also their clones and similar designs always showed up. Then in 65 we had the Vampire (first foamie) and a few other foam planes show up by the late 60's.
RW
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Man, those were the days, weren't they? 100-plus entrants in CL Combat, with a variety of designs. Today we're lucky to see more than a half-dozen Combat fliers show-up at the (watered-down) Nats....all flying those FAI-like thingies.
<sigh> I miss the Old Days.
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At the Glenview Nats in 71 or 72, there were 150 in Open combat. The director was none other than Murray Franks.
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All of this combat talk is great--- going back and remembering-- so cool. Wooten, I had placed a $100. balsa order with your " Lone Star Balsa" two months later was told " Lone Star" was no more. I wrote a letter to your " Lone Star" --- never got a response---- I know this is " Old History" about your " Lone Star" but I never got a response nor refund nor the balsa. And I'm sure you don't care. At the time when " Lone Star" became no more---I wonder how many others had placed orders with your " Lone Star" and got nothing--------ya just kept the money and made no effort to make good on anything concerning those who had trusted " Lone Star" and Wooten.
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Why didn't you send Riley a private message? He wasn't running Lone Star balsa when you placed your order.
I seriously doubt he ever heard of your problem.
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At the Glenview Nats in 71 or 72, there were 150 in Open combat. The director was none other than Murray Franks.
72 had over 100 in Open. It was a long, long day. Wet weather. My first match with Gary Frost( of St. Louis ?). We went quite a ways, but no cigar. Murray Franks- an awesome Texan with roots in the NY metro area.
We all loved that guy .
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All of this combat talk is great--- going back and remembering-- so cool. Wooten, I had placed a $100. balsa order with your " Lone Star Balsa" two months later was told " Lone Star" was no more. I wrote a letter to your " Lone Star" --- never got a response---- I know this is " Old History" about your " Lone Star" but I never got a response nor refund nor the balsa. And I'm sure you don't care. At the time when " Lone Star" became no more---I wonder how many others had placed orders with your " Lone Star" and got nothing--------ya just kept the money and made no effort to make good on anything concerning those who had trusted " Lone Star" and Wooten.
[/qu
Randy, give me some dates!!!! AND FACTS !!! I was out of LS mostly after 2002........ Was completely out after fire in Nov. 2007... My policy was to never cash a customer check or charge his card until his order was shipped... So how about some more information before you start talking trash!!!!!!!
RW
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All of this combat talk is great--- going back and remembering-- so cool. Wooten, I had placed a $100. balsa order with your " Lone Star Balsa" two months later was told " Lone Star" was no more. I wrote a letter to your " Lone Star" --- never got a response---- I know this is " Old History" about your " Lone Star" but I never got a response nor refund nor the balsa. And I'm sure you don't care. At the time when " Lone Star" became no more---I wonder how many others had placed orders with your " Lone Star" and got nothing--------ya just kept the money and made no effort to make good on anything concerning those who had trusted " Lone Star" and Wooten.
Hell of a way to try to ruin a wonderful thread. Thanks a lot jerk!
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My first Nats was in 68 in Kansas. That was Rileys last Nats he won with the Vampire. I didnt get to enter because of some BS about stopping entries a 5 pm and they shut the door on several entrants standing in line. So I spent the week just screwing around at the NATS and taking it all in. It's to this day one of my favorite NATS and I didnt even get to fly. We stayed in a hanger on cots. And I was in awe at all the airplane in the hangers. Rows and Rows of folks working on their airplanes. I checked out every event there. I had Blast! I was 13 years old and was just kinda cut loose for a week. I recall all they had to drink at that NATS was Pepsi or beer. After about 4 days of Pepsi Pop let me have a few beers. I dint like beer that much, but couldnt take another Pepsi! One night Me and Pop and Riley went to the officers club for supper. At about 10 or so they bring out this cutie and she started stripping. FREAKING WOW...this was gonna be great! Then they told me I had to leave. So Pop and Riley told me to have a nice night and they would see me in the morning....downer. Probably not as big a downer as Pop had wen I told mom about it when we got home.....my bad.......From then on I realized when Mom as what I did at the Nats for a week, I DIDNT HAVE to tell everything. So what happened at the Nats, stayed at the Nats from then on. I wouldt take for all the NATS trips me and Riley and Pop went to. They will always be some of my fondest memories.
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All of this combat talk is great--- going back and remembering-- so cool. Wooten, I had placed a $100. balsa order with your " Lone Star Balsa" two months later was told " Lone Star" was no more. I wrote a letter to your " Lone Star" --- never got a response---- I know this is " Old History" about your " Lone Star" but I never got a response nor refund nor the balsa. And I'm sure you don't care. At the time when " Lone Star" became no more---I wonder how many others had placed orders with your " Lone Star" and got nothing--------ya just kept the money and made no effort to make good on anything concerning those who had trusted " Lone Star" and Wooten.
Take it up privately, please.
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All of this combat talk is great--- going back and remembering-- so cool. Wooten, I had placed a $100. balsa order with your " Lone Star Balsa" two months later was told " Lone Star" was no more. I wrote a letter to your " Lone Star" --- never got a response---- I know this is " Old History" about your " Lone Star" but I never got a response nor refund nor the balsa. And I'm sure you don't care. At the time when " Lone Star" became no more---I wonder how many others had placed orders with your " Lone Star" and got nothing--------ya just kept the money and made no effort to make good on anything concerning those who had trusted " Lone Star" and Wooten.
You need to take this up privately. Do you have a cancelled check or a credit card receipt?
Nice way to ruin a good thread.
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Riley, first of all, this post is probably my all time favorite of my years on stunthanger! Thank you for this, I'm eating it up.
Next, you haven't mentioned the Whatzit at all. I had Duane Kassa almost force me to go the Whatzit in the summer of '59 at Navy Memphis using a Torp greenhead he prepped for me and it was a killer. I stopped flying after that season until I left the Navy in '62, so failed to follow combat until around 64 after I married. By then the good old Whatzit was history in the circles.
Thanks again for these articles, once Randy Ryan gets them all organized I'm going to beg the finnal draft from him. (Or drool all over his computer keyboard.)
I'll make it available Will. I'm with you, GREAT THREAD!!!!! We're currently at 9 1/2 pages with all the comments and questions edited out. When I go back through I'll put any relevant ones back in to make it flow if need be but right just Riley's words.
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Thanks brother Randy, you da man. (Right after Riley.)
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I'll make it available Will. I'm with you, GREAT THREAD!!!!! We're currently at 9 1/2 pages with all the comments and questions edited out. When I go back through I'll put any relevant ones back in to make it flow if need be but right just Riley's words.
I would like a copy of that too Randy. I'll frame it up and put it in the combat museum!
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I have a word document opened and copy each addition also
My thoughts too Bob, but I think I will set it as a time line with significant information so I can bold face certain areas and frame for my hanger / shop
Would love a similar recounting by Berryman, Scarinzi..and several others like Howard Rush, Dick Mathis, etc Too bad Marvin Denny has past, I never did pester him about his planes, just the engines
Mr. Wooten sir
You have no idea what this means to me and the funny thing is my son, listening to me re-tell some of your story as I relate it to my youth, is similarly interested in the history of "dad's hobby"...so sir you are impacting a few generations with this well told memory lane recounting
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Well, after trying to get in touch with Carl Berryman, leaving voice mail messages as well as message to his daughter and no response I hope he and Barb are ok......I will just go on with the time line as I know it. We left the 58 nats Sat. afternoon, drove all night so we could fly in Amarillo contest the next day.... Carl won combat, and I flew stunt only so I could make the 120 miles to Lubbock, a good nights sleep and work Monday....
Shortly after, Carl moved to Altus, Ok. so we were not in touch as often, although he still came to all the area contest.... Also about this time we had a bunch of new guys start flying or move to Lubbock.... Don and Pete Jaden, James Mears and sons Bob and Andy, Steve Hills, Howard Henry, Bentley Page and about a dozen more.. I apologize for not remembering everyone and all the names.. As I said before; Wayne, Don and I were still having building sessions at my house. New modifications daily but the basis was always the Quicker, Voodoo wing with different airfoils, tips, side mount, profiles and etc. I had built my custom Quicker, which was basically a Sniper (Voodoo) with Quicker stab/elevator.....
Carl came to visit and showed me his latest.. It was, as I remember a Quicker type wing plan form and airfoil but using the Big Iron style construction.......
The really new thing, however was the stabilator and I think Carl was the first to try it... I flew it and actually did not like it as well as a stab/elevator set up....
BUT it was much simpler and easier to build and I was convinced it was the way to go, AND THE REST IS HISTORY!!!!
RW
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1959 turned out to be an unusual but busy year. With all the new guys a lot of flying and weekend competition taking place improved everyone. The first chance for them to enter a contest came at Abilene, Tx. I don't remember much about this contest except they all really had a good time and were hooked. It was windy, the T Squares would not make it upwind and the cd allowed combat to be flown either clockwise or counter clockwise. First and only time and the rules say counter clockwise but seems some locals flew the other way. I flew one of them, eliminating him and flew most of the match inverted.....
Since this history is a lot of my experiences I will go to a side note that side tracked me a little.. Seems Don and Wayne(sidekicks) bought a go kart. I went with them to race it. They did not do well and asked me to help with the engine. We took the engine apart, did a little port work and the next race ran second in all the races.. A little ol guy (all of 45-50) won every race easily. Trying to be friendly I ask what he had done to the engine to be so much faster than everyone.. He informed me in no uncertain terms that he was a boat mechanic and knew more about 2 strokes than anyone and I would not even know what he was talking about.... Being the competitive person I was, my thought at that point is I have got to beat this guy.... You guessed it; buy a kart, rebuild the engine as much as rules would allow turning the 5.8 cu. in. engine that was designed for about 5,000 rpm into a 12,000 rpm machine.. In those days everyone was running gas so I modified carb to run alcohol base fuel (legal)...... To make a long story short, the first time we raced I blew him off the track; he protested my engine and I asked who got to look inside. The marshal said "only me, why" and I told him in front of the guy "since he knows more about 2 cycles than anyone I don't want him to see what I have done". He did not get to see, my engine was legal, and I got his protest money... After that everything was anticlimactic but now everyone wanted me to rebuild their engines and carbs...... The money was good but took all my time. My shop was now filled with engines and carbs and I was burning out fast.... By the way the kart never lost a race..... I sold it to a friend and he was winning with it 2 years later......
Back to models and the 59 nats !!
RW
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This last post just might well be the best of the whole thread!!!! I LOVE it! Way to go, Riley.
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As you can see I was quite distracted in 59 and raced most weekends so did not go to many contest... Also combat plane development suffered for lack of time doing kart stuff.. I might mention that kart racing was not my first venture into racing.. While in high school I bought a 36 Ford coupe for $15.00 and turned it into a modified stocker which I raced. Also had a one season fling with midgets about 53....I might add that the guy that protested my kart engine never raced me again. If I was at a race and he showed up; saw I was racing he loaded up and left......I loved it !!!! BUT MODELS ARE STILL THE MOST FUN !!!!!
I don't remember much about the 59 nats... I keep getting them and 63 mixed up.. As best as I recall I had a Quicker, a Quicker wing with different tips, side mount engine and stabilator (Voodoo type), a Whatzit, and a new tapered wing, extended tail flying wing... I also think I had a diamond airfoil stabilator design.
The planes I remember were the Renegade, Hj Johnsons Blurr and the DeBolt Combater(sp).. The DeBolt was kit prototype stabilator job and did not fly. I thought it was a poor design. Stab was very weak, airfoil too thin with high point way too far back and inboard wing offset a lot... West coast guys are not going to like this but both the planes and flying were not up to par with the rest of the country at that time... The only flight I really remember was against John Barr and his Renegade(later Veco kit) and it did not last long... I flew both a Quicker and Whatzit to promote kit sales and say they were Nationals winners........
In stunt I flew very early and turns out in very dead air.. Wind gets up around 10 to 11am there so you need to fly before then... My next flight was after combat in the afternoon wind and I think I finished in my usual 6th place, maybe 5th.. That was also the first year I noticed the real serious guys were dressing to match their planes color scheme to impress the Navy judges.. I decided it was a PR contest, not a flying contest and that was the last time I flew stunt at the Nats.... Thankfully, I do not think it is that way now..... AND THE EVENT IS MUCH BETTER !!!
Later that year I got a call telling me to be in Dallas next Saturday for stunt team trials to be on the first FAI team... With almost no practice I drove to Dallas
by myself to compete.. I came in 2nd just a couple of points behind Don Still... Congratulated Don and headed home thinking it was all over...... Not long after I get another call saying I need to be in St Louis next weekend for TT finals.. I had no time off and didn't think I could afford to go if I made team I did not go.
Not going is my one regret.... I think Don was our number one scorer and I beat him about as often as he beat me... I was in middle management at GE at the time and as I look back I probably could have gotten them to sponsor at least part of my expenses.............
RW
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Here's a picture from, I believe, the Nov 59 issue of American Modeler (JPG format, hope it displays correctly). The NATS report article. Some cool cat looking for another canary to swallow. Neat airplane.
Mel Gray
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Here's a picture from, I believe, the Nov 59 issue of American Modeler (JPG format, hope it displays correctly). The NATS report article. Some cool cat looking for another canary to swallow. Neat airplane.
Mel Gray
Tanks Mel for posting that. I thought that 59 Whatzit had a side mount but was not sure.... I have never been good at taking or keeping photos and etc.....
RW
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James Mears, I think, told a story about the 1959 Nats trip being financed by games of pool along the way. Would you like to elaborate?
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James Mears, I think, told a story about the 1959 Nats trip being financed by games of pool along the way. Would you like to elaborate?
No comment !! You knew James and his stories so let's leave it at that..... We did have a lot of good times on some of those trips...
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No comment !! You knew James and his stories so let's leave it at that..... We did have a lot of good times on some of those trips...
LOL!
Sounds like James Mears would have been a blast to know and be around! A masterful story-teller can take a somewhat "less than spectacular" event and turn it into a highly entertaining and memorable tale of wonder and intrigue... making one wish they had been there to live it and enjoy it firsthand. So too, was the ability of my old friend Bill James. I still recall many of Bill's combat stories.
Although we're dealing with historical accuracy in Riley's ongoing account of the way things were as he lived it... this thread, too... contains that magical ability to make one wish they had been able to be there alongside, live it, and experience it firsthand. That's what good history telling does.
Onward Mr. Wooten!
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LOL!
Sounds like James Mears would have been a blast to know and be around!
Andre
Being around James was more of a blast than anyone could ever explain! While not from Lubbock, I had "grew up" with the stories. No way they could be true. Fortunately, I have had a couple verified from the "other side". Bigger than life stuff when you think about it, but just normal stuff for me. Who knew I was around celebrities?
I remember being at a Nats one year where I had a rematch (got lucky since I couldn't figure out how to handle a specific set of turns). I remember asking Riley for help. Walked through the scenario I was having trouble with and got an answer. Again - just normal stuff. Ask a guy that knows and get good advice. Still lost the match, but it wasn't because of the advice. Fixed one problem just to find another :-(
I considered going to college in Lubbock. Doubt I would have graduated, but I do know that Riley, James, Bobby and Andy would have made a combat flyer out of me!
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Andre
I considered going to college in Lubbock. Doubt I would have graduated, but I do know that Riley, James, Bobby and Andy would have made a combat flyer out of me!
Kid, you turned out to be a pretty good combat pilot on your own, if I remember correctly.
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Kid, you turned out to be a pretty good combat pilot on your own, if I remember correctly.
LOL! I was sort of thinking that myself!!
Thanks Tom for sharing some of your experiences in this, "The Mother Of All Combat Threads".
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Tom, I thought you were a combat flyer even though I remember you and your Dad from racing. Also didn't you win the first World Combat Meet over seas? And Riley I too wish I had been around the combat circles more, but at the time carrier and rat racing was taking my time. I was so privalaged to get to meet James Mears, you and others at the Tuscon Combat meet many years ago. That was right after I had retired and spent three weeks with Aunt Betty and Mother-in-law.
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1959 turned out to be an unusual but busy year. With all the new guys a lot of flying and weekend competition taking place improved everyone. The first chance for them to enter a contest came at Abilene, Tx. I don't remember much about this contest except they all really had a good time and were hooked. It was windy, the T Squares would not make it upwind and the cd allowed combat to be flown either clockwise or counter clockwise. First and only time and the rules say counter clockwise but seems some locals flew the other way. I flew one of them, eliminating him and flew most of the match inverted.....
Since this history is a lot of my experiences I will go to a side note that side tracked me a little.. Seems Don and Wayne(sidekicks) bought a go kart. I went with them to race it. They did not do well and asked me to help with the engine. We took the engine apart, did a little port work and the next race ran second in all the races.. A little ol guy (all of 45-50) won every race easily. Trying to be friendly I ask what he had done to the engine to be so much faster than everyone.. He informed me in no uncertain terms that he was a boat mechanic and knew more about 2 strokes than anyone and I would not even know what he was talking about.... Being the competitive person I was, my thought at that point is I have got to beat this guy.... You guessed it; buy a kart, rebuild the engine as much as rules would allow turning the 5.8 cu. in. engine that was designed for about 5,000 rpm into a 12,000 rpm machine.. In those days everyone was running gas so I modified carb to run alcohol base fuel (legal)...... To make a long story short, the first time we raced I blew him off the track; he protested my engine and I asked who got to look inside. The marshal said "only me, why" and I told him in front of the guy "since he knows more about 2 cycles than anyone I don't want him to see what I have done". He did not get to see, my engine was legal, and I got his protest money... After that everything was anticlimactic but now everyone wanted me to rebuild their engines and carbs...... The money was good but took all my time. My shop was now filled with engines and carbs and I was burning out fast.... By the way the kart never lost a race..... I sold it to a friend and he was winning with it 2 years later......
Back to models and the 59 nats !!
RW
Riley that sounds like my diversion into Indian motorcycle restoration and part replications. I burned out in a couple years and didn't enjoy my own bikes during that time.
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Just got back from the Gleasons fish fry/fly. It is always a great time with Dale and Linda Bob.. They are the very best people you could know and great host....
When we got back home the fish were running and Marion has tired me out taking her out fishing... She can catch them faster than I can clean them...... We will get into the story of the Voodoo and it's variations and the 60 nats next... Right now it's bed and recover from fishing......
RW
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When we got back home the fish were running and Marion has tired me out taking her out fishing... She can catch them faster than I can clean them......
It is tough when fishing gets in the way of story telling. Now that I think about it, I thought fishing was story telling or vice versa.
Tom
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OK, Tom; back to the story!! The 1960 nats is going to be in our back yard at Dallas.. Some, if not all the new guys want to go to their first nats so there is some excitement in the group....
After the 59 nats I start to wind down my kart racing and selling all my stuff so I can get more involved with modeling.. I want to refine my stabilator designs and get ready for 60. Remember earlier I told of my design requirements (frame up in no more than 1 hour, material cost $1.00; but this keeps going up) I also liked to stay around a 4 to 1 aspect ratio and use no more than 36" balsa... This seemed to give me the best combination of performance and strength...
325 sq. in. seemed to be the minimum area to get a decent wing loading so this gave us a wing of 36" to 42" (3" tips) and a cord of 9" - 9.25".... This had worked for me in the past so I would stay with that basic plan form.....
Something that always amused me was the guys always bragging about having the tightest turning planes.. While a tight turn is important I always wanted a plane that would maintain as much speed in turns as possible... I could always open up a little on the so called tight turning plane and still be where I wanted to be, and arrive with more speed... In fact, if he slowed too much you had to be careful not to overrun your opponent.....
Next we get into the Sniper (Voodoo), the Sonic, Supersonic and some differences and things we tried.. Trouble is I lost all my records and notes in the LS fire so it will all have to be from memory......
RW
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Before I start this post can anyone tell me when the large case Johnson CS was released?? I cannot remember this at all so I need help... I think it was 1960 and one of the reasons I was trying different things.. The new engines were heavier and produced more power.. The Sniper basically became the Voodoo because Carl Coldberg did not like the name.... The Sniper had a little more span and larger stab. The airfoil was the same as the Quicker without the reflex..
He also wanted the cg a little further forward so the average sport flyer could handle it to bore holes in the sky with no combat in mind... He must have been right as it was a huge success selling over 50,000 kits a year
The Sonic, Super Sonic and variants were all basically the same with tip, airfoil, moment and stab changes... I tried many airfoils between 12% and 18%..... Surprisingly, under very controlled conditions using the same engine, prop and fuel the fastest times were with the 18% airfoil.. Don't get me wrong as all times were very, very close and the best two times were with the 18%... For best all around and to suit my style with speed through turns the 15% range was my choice.... Some of the Sonic series also used elliptical stabilators of different sizes, both flat plate and airfoiled with counter balance. My favorite was a fairly large, airfoiled stab with a small counter balance and the hinge pivot point at 3" behind the wing TE..... This year I used crankcase pressure metal tanks but they all would have been better on bladders... I thought these things are really good; I'l be loaded for bear this year.............
RW
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Before I start this post can anyone tell me when the large case Johnson CS was released??
I saw Carl Berryman with the ball bearing version in 1961. I think the plain bearing version came out earlier.
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I saw Carl Berryman with the ball bearing version in 1961. I think the plain bearing version came out earlier.
Howard, thanks for reply.. I am sure you are right and after a little more searching I feel like 60 was the year. I remember getting them both the same year but liked plain bearing and was getting more from it.. Carl liked the BB much better.
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After getting the big case, big shaft Johnsons the first thing I did was re-time them as before and take as much weight as possible off the crank throw side... With the big shaft I.D. the case volume was increased so I stuffed the shaft. This was done by roughing up the front I. D. of the shaft with course grinder so epoxy would stay in place.. I had learned and used Hysol epoxy on go-kart engines with no problems. I would warm the part (not hot) before applying the Hysol (do not remember number).. It would dry to a medium hardness and was easy to form and grind before it cured completely, then it became rock hard... I never had any come loose...... I made a jig that would hold the shaft, front down at about 35 to 40 degree angle, opening up and pour the Hyson in slowly, making sure there were no air bubbles. The shaft in front of the opening was filled and the epoxy was then formed to make a nice radius back into the shaft and engine, making a better flow pattern, while reducing volume.. I also made some squish band, trumpet heads that worked well..
The only problem now was that I could not under prop them or use too much nitro or I would blow the jug off.. At this point I had (IMHO) the best engines for combat anywhere.. I used a lot of Superfuel type 5% and 10% fuel.......
RW
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This is a little later than the thread time frame but some might find it interesting, Dayton NATS in the 70's, I can't remember who is who in the photo.
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This is a little later than the thread time frame but some might find it interesting, Dayton NATS in the 70's, I can't remember who is who in the photo.
[/quote
Thanks to Howard Rush the guys in the photo are: Top - Greg Hissem, Mike Strieter, Sherwood Buckstaff Front - Will Rogers & Gary Stevens
Also, in my last post I am afraid I made it sound like the Johnsons could be easily blown.. I did not mean it that way as they were the most reliable and easy starting engines I had ever used... Let me just say that after our mods they were capable of producing more power than they were designed for. We could back off and still have all the power we needed.......
RW
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Interesting listing
http://www.ebay.com/itm/CALIFORNIA-MODELS-COMPANY-QUICKER-COMBAT-AIRPLANE-DELUXE-CUSTOM-KIT-/252123134331?hash=item3ab3b5b97b:g:M0YAAOSw0HVWExh5
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1960 arrived with a lot of excitement, building and flying going on in our area. Everyone was looking forward to going to the Nationals at NAS Grand Prairie, TX.
I had what I thought to be more good planes and engines than ever before. All the local contest were well attended with great competition... Everyones equipment was getting better with a lot of good flying... Unlike 1956 when we went as rookies and not expecting much, this time we had high expectations. I thought at least some of our bunch would do very well....
There seemed to be a bigger array of planes at the nats than usual.. Every thing from a lot of good planes to a throttle controlled Flitestreak and a RM with single wheel gear top and bottom, plus some other strange stuff.. I had two very light Sonics (Voodoo) with different stabilator that were very good. Carl's Big Irons also looked good... Our other guys had good stuff too. Overall the quality and quantity was better than before..
I lost my best plane practice flying when an almost new set of Sullivan lines failed. I always used Seven Strand so don't know why I even had them... Also this year I decided to give up stunt at the nats since it created a schedule problem.. As it turned out, this year it would not as combat ended early for me.....
RW
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Again, for all that did not get a chance to attend a Navy Nats you just don't know what you missed.. It was quite an event; a large hanger with planes and modelers every where. Everything from hand launch gliders to RC scale, people building planes and running engines outside the doors.. Then about midnight someone fires up a Dynajet to wake up the troops.
Early in the week before combat competition started a bunch of us guys decided to go to a local Tavern for some adult beverages. These included 6'8" Carl Berryman and 6'7" Howard Henry. The rest of us little guys were just 6' plus.... If you ever stayed in a Navy barrack in Dallas in August you would know why we weren't in any hurry to go to bed..... Hot is not a good enough word!!! We came in about midnight to take a cold shower to cool off and see if we could sleep.. We may have been making a little noise and some guy yells "hey you Texans, shut up and be quite". A few more words were said and by this time the whole barrack was awake. Carl, being the easy going guy he is jokingly walks over to the loud guys bunk, lifts it up by the foot and the guy slides out on his head. The whole barrack is laughing; tensions eased and we take our showers and hit the sack...Our barrack was very easy going and fun the rest of the week.
This was now my 4th nats, Carl's 2nd and the first for our other guys. They were nervous and did not do well.. Most won early matches but I don't remember what happened on their loses, including Carl. I do remember that Don lost to the guy with the throttled Streak.... Too much speed difference, changing speeds and he kept over shooting him.. Do not remember for sure but I don't think any of our bunch won anything... Fun, but we did not do good!!!
The flight that helped changed the fast combat rules coming up next....
RW
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My flight against Bill Carpenter has to go down as the longest match in nats history.. I think it was in the quarter finals but could have been any time as I just do not remember.. Bill was the local top dog in Van Nuys, Anaheim area, I think and one of the Hi Johnson bunch.. He also designed the Swoop (later Sterling Kit).. I guess he was a one time wonder as I never heard of him after that.....If I am wrong someone can fill me in as he may still have been flying in southern Cal. At that time Cal. was not a hot bed of good combat..............
Our match starts and right away he gets a small cut of about 6". I make a move and come in behind him and what happens; he crashes or what I would better describe it pancakes into the ground... Broken prop and no other damage. My thinking is he will be right back up but watching it is obvious he is not going up. One lead is not even hooked to battery and they are flipping away....
The rules at that time gave you 60 points for a cut (I think) and if you hit the ground it cost you 25 points.. We had only flown a few seconds, and he was up by 35 points.. If he stayed on the ground for the next 4-1/2 minutes he won.. Most guys would not do that but the only thing to stop it by rule was the disqualification for unsportsman like conduct and that's not called often.....
I'm screwed, must do something so I whipped the plane into a half wing over using the wind to build up speed and snapped a hard 180 and sure enough the string broke right behind the plane.. That stopped the clock since the string was weak and it was determined the management was at fault.. I fly out the tank
and we tie new streamer on. The judges tell the other pit crew they must try to restart. I take off again, full tank and we are on the clock.. Again, you can see they are not going back up so I repeat the same maneuver with the same results. Another 5 min. flying out the tank and judges talk to them again.. Another streamer and off again.. Same results with only a few more seconds off the clock.. This kept going on until we finally used up the time.. Bill was not going back up and that was it.. I did not know him but his crew were friends (I thought) and I must say I was pissed.. I never thought winning at all cost was all that important, but apparently some do. I still contend he should have been disqualified.......... He did go on to win open and I hope he was proud of himself.......
Oops, interruption; will be back.
RW
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Re: Wooten/Carpenter match...
Not the way I would want to win a match. Sounds to me like he was running scared. That is, he got a first cut and feared he couldn't hold his own so he took the chicken's way out and won the match by staying on the ground.
Hm. Makes me look at my Super Swoop kit a bit differently.
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That's sad to hear Riley. I'd rather kicked my @$$ kicked by someone better so i can learn how to get better myself. Again, thank you for this historic recollection.
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Chicago Nats, 1972. I flew Bill Rutherford and he got up first. John Deaton my pitman couldn't get the engine to start. Bill had the match on time, when my engine started. John launched me just as Bill flew by. Killed him on the way up. Heard all sorts of words from Bill. Pure dumb luck on my part.
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The only NATS I made was '71 in Glenview. I flew in Senior Combat and as I recall, the Guillotines were out in full force. When the dust settled Bernie Varnau (R) took first in Senior with his "Motivator", and Dave Bush (L) took second with his "Dinosaur".
The drinking age back then was 18, and I was a little short. No matter, the guys on the Detroit Combat Team took good care of me. We rode back home playing poker in the back of a big van, and by the time we passed Kalamazoo I was silly-faced. When we reached the Motor City I was broke...but still owned my clothes, shoes and a few Tornado 8-8s.
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Just a note to tell everyone following this thread that my wife, Marion passed away yesterday very unexpectedly. This beautiful Lady that I had known for over 65 years and been married to for 63+ was my inspiration and best friend.. Please forgive me for not continuing this history for a short time............
RW
PS: FYI - Services 2:00pm Thursday 11/12/15 Sanders Funeral Home, Lubbock, Tx..
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Riley, I was shocked to see the notice and did not respond there. I do not know what you are going through. Any way take care of your self and when the time is right you can finish this.
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I'm very sorry, Mr. Wooten. In this dark hour, please accept my condolences.
Chad Hill
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So very saddened to read of this, Riley. I can't imagine how your heart must be hurting. I fully understand how that this is a time for you and your family to be together. Family is the most important element for all of you at this time. The last thing you need to be bothered with is to feel compelled to deal with this ongoing combat history. It can wait for as long as needed, and if it doesn't continue, I, for one, would certainly understand.
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As posted elsewhere, my deepest sympathies. Marion was a lovely lady who was always a joy to greet at the VSC with a big smile and a hug. Sincere condolences. We'll miss her.
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I'm very sorry to hear that Riley, and can't begin to imagine the loss you must feel. Sincere condolences from Minnesota ...
Dennis
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So sorry to hear this, my deepest sympathies and prayers for you and yours.
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THANKS EVERYONE FOR YOUR THOUGHTS AND PRAYERS
I will try to continue this history shortly as my wife wanted me to do this.....
RW
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Take your time sir, we are not going any where but out to the shop to build or the field to fly, and more importantly, reflecting on our own families and loved ones as we pray for your family
Your family and you come first
Warmest reguards
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Please let me add my condolences.
I can imagine what your going through right now, as my wife of 55 years passed away earlier this year. Took a long time for the pain to let up, but things are slowly returning to normal. Family and friends have helped me get through this, and my hobbies are getting more attention than they have for years.
Best wishes for you and yours.
Bill
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This post has been so interesting I went downstairs to the museum and found an unopened Wooten kit. Anyone familiar with the 'Shadow'?
If you enlarge the pictures they go right side up....
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I have the Sizzor and Shadow in inventory awaiting a build for the museum. Pete Jaden and I campaigned those models back when they were new. Really a great airplane.
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Wasn't there a Vampire also? I was thinking that was the first foam wing kit Riley produced.
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Yes, Vampire is 68. Scizzor and Shadow was about 72 I think
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The Vampire actually was in 65 and first foam kit. First version of Shadow and Sizzor early 70's - 71 or 2 I think. Bob did quite well with them powered by Fox 36XBB.. They kept getting more squares as engines got more powerful..
RW
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Taking up where I lost to Bill Carpenter at the 1960 Nats. He did win under the rules at the time, but being in the air for all of probably 20 seconds and staying on the ground for the next 10 means he was afraid to fly.. He could not win in the air and he knew it... If that were not the case why did he not restart? He never had a starting problem at any other time during the contest, with under 10 second starts every time........ The judges did not do their job to allow this, and it did start the rule to give one point per second air time to stop it. With the air time rule you had to at least stay in the air or get a total of cuts and air time to win.........
That year the most popular planes were stibalitor designs with a few of the old still present... I felt like I had the best engine/plane combos there and that is where Carl Goldberg contacted me about kitting a combat plane. I had met Carl earlier at the 58 Nats but had only seen him at the Na ts. He went out with me and watched as I flew a couple of flights. We decided on the Sniper for a kit but I thought the Sonic with a balanced stab was a better plane.... With a few minor changes the Sniper became the Voodoo because it was a little easier to build. Carl was a little concerned because he was not convinced a combat kit would sell in large enough quantities to be profitable at the price needed.. He wanted it to appeal to the average non competition flyer who just wanted to bore holes in the sky.. I guess he was right as we sold over 50,000 kit per year the first few years. These figures would be unheard of today...........
The Voodoo was in MAN a few months later and the Voodoo kit was released, I think in the spring of 61.. I made a deal with Carl that he would pay more in royalties for every year that a Voodoo was used to win the Nats......That was a good move for me as it won in some class for several years!!
RW
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When I started this I expected other people to add their history from other parts of our country but it's turned out to be mostly my story. Maybe all you other guys are to young to go back that far so I guess we will continue as before. I am headed for the Big Easy and a fishing trip for the next few days. After that I will get into changing jobs, getting into the model industry and ect......... 1961
RW
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Well after a long pause, a great fishing trip and taking time to reflect on my life, both the good times and bad I am going to try to go forward with this story for those interested..
1961 was a year of great change for me. About June Duke Fox called me and offered me a job paying quite a lot more than I was making, plus a chance to own part of the company.. Knowing the history of most modelers that had worked for Fox I was concerned but accepted his offer. I left a great job at GE to be the general manager of his recently purchased Berkley Models. Duke was a little different. You could not lay out a plan and present it to him. You just had to make remarks or hints and let him come up with the idea or it was no good. He just could not delegate authority.. I tried my best to get him to produce a new combat engine that was almost the same as the much later mk4. In the early 60's it would have dominated.. At this time Fox did one thing new in that he produced a kit called the Rumble. Very close to a straight wing Sweet Sweep and it flew good.. I saw the writing on the wall and did not stay long as I knew I would never fit in. I did learn a few things about equipment that would help later in the balsa business so that was a plus.......... So now I am back in Lubbock, but without a job. I did not go to the 61 Nats as money was short and it was in Pa. I went to work selling building supplies and with the royalties from the Voodoo kits which were selling very well things were good. In early 62 I get my chance to get into the model and hobby business.
Our club was at it's strongest about this time. We had a lot of guys and a lot of combat in West Texas.. The competition was great with the likes of Carl and Marvin added to the locals..
RW
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Riley your note on Dec 5th about hoping others would add their memories did find me with too short and much later model airplane history to write about
That said, I am fascinated by your words here and some of the others who have added to the history... your doing this on the forum is great
But I dearly wish I was your neighbor and we could banter back and forth over a beer or whatever and as you remember something and I could ask questions
I am an engine guy and would pester you about how you learned to modify them, what worked, and what did not and why.....same about secret fuel blends or glow plug choices, and that begs propeller brand, mods, and choices/testing
I sort of like to hear about the controversies that positively shaped stunt and combat contests as well as the gentlemen that were detractors
Any way God Bless sir...if this was a book I would buy it
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In late 61; early 62 I designed the Sneeker and built several prototypes. I also built and flew my first foam combat plane.. I was trying to keep it such a secret that I flew it at an out of the way school ground with my wife launching. It was not so much I did not want them to know about the foam as I was afraid of getting laughed at if it did not fly well. It was a good move, the plane flew very good, but about half way through the flight exploded, and I do mean exploded!!! My theory was that I could use stub spars 16" long for the center section and the GM silkspan applied with thinned white glue would give enough skin strength for the outer panels. What I did not consider was that the joint between the foam and spars was not rigid since the foam could give. It probably would have worked if I had glued the end of the spars with vertical grain 1/16" balsa to create a rigid box. Rather than fool with this it was just easier to use full length spars, although I did box them at the tips as well and they were tapered to about 1'8" sq. at tips. This second generation flew very well and there is a good story to tell when we come back. There was so much going on in 62 that I will not get everything in the right order but will get it all in..........
RW
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I went to the Nats in 1961 and flew in Junior Combat. I had hoped to get to meet Mr. Wooten, or at least see him fly, but, alas he was not in attendance. It was like going to Vegas and not getting to see Sinatra!
I flew my prized flamed, red Quicker at that meet and was eliminated early. However, one of my former UMAC club mates, Frank Pisz took first in Junior flying a Torp Greenhead 35 powered Quicker. Senior was won by Harry Schell (SP?) who flew a Veco Renegade, and Open was won by Jim Ribar who flew a modified Quicker that he called the "Explorer." So, even though Riley wasn't there, his influence was still present in his designs.
At that Nats I got to watch Bob Gialdini fly his legendary Olympic design in the Open stunt event, and, well, that was it for me and Combat; I started on my path as a stunt flier at that point.
Riley: May I offer my very belated condolences on your devastating loss. I know her memory and her love will live on in your heart forever.
Bob Hunt
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Bob, first I want to thank you as well as all others for the kind words. It has been a tough month+. Marion (my wife of 63 yrs) went with me a few days before her heart attack to launch the electric Flitestreak Bob Mears had given me. Her comments after landing was "looks like old times and you never quit" to which I said you must not have seen my legs shaking. That was her, always happy, smiling, positive and encouraging....
On to the foam combat plane which was probably the first foam control line model in history and maybe any foam model... I sure don't know for sure......
I met Carl Berryman in Altus Oklahoma and we went to Tulsa for a Glue Dobbers contest. I took a Voodoo, a Sneeker and the foam plane.. The foam plane was covered with 00 silkspan and thinned white glue, then sprayed lightly with Aero Gloss. It was hard to tell it was foam and no one noticed.... I decided to fly it in the first match to see how it did against competition.. You can probably guess the end to this story. I had quite a bit of speed on the other model, not enough flying time on the foamie and sure enough I t-boned him.!! WOW, what a snowstorm!! It actually looked like it was snowing. Remember, this was in the old days with a lot of people at contest.. Everyone was running out to grab what ever was falling from the sky to see what it was.. It was exciting and very funny. The foam I was using was not bonded together as good as today so it really came apart into many beads. So that is how the first flight of a foam combat plane in history ended. That was not the only excitement at that contest. I had a cutaway on one of my other planes and it hit a spectators car.. Boy, was he upset and I assured him my insurance would take care of it. It only hit the front bumper and did almost no damage but he was sure he would not get paid for it.. AMA insurance was very good in those days and he later thanked me for getting it taken care of even from several hundred miles away.. I don't remember if we won or not but we had a blast and the TGD guys are great!! By the way, I think that was the only fly away I ever had in thousands of flights...
RW
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In 1961 a couple of guys with the help of ones banker father started a hobby wholesale distributor business in Lubbock.. By the end of 61 they were in trouble and about to go broke. The father called me in January, 62 and wanted to meet with me. The meeting went well and he hired me to become the president and general manager with the power to do anything I needed to turn it around.. In two years we had doubled in size and started Flite Line Products to produce kits and import balsa from Ecuador.. He then gave me 10% of the company and I was into the hobby business for better or worse...... More on this later but lets talk combat....
The 62 Nats would be in Chicago (actually Glenview NAS), the Voodoo kits were pretty new and very popular. I had built my latest, the Sneeker and was working on getting the kit out. Sherwood Buckstaff came up from Houston and spent the summer with Bentley Page while building and flying with us.... It was a good summer. Pete Jaden, a local junior was going to his first Nats. He was working hard, getting better every day in both combat and stunt.. My wife was going with me to Chicago, which she did not always get to do because of other commitments........... I think she may have been our good luck charm as we all did well. My only setback was that the night before combat finals someone decided they needed my best Sneeker and Johnson CS more than I and took them.. As I remember they also took a couple of other combat planes but I do not remember just what.. It was the only time I ever had anything stolen from the hanger, but it really put me in a bind for planes for the final day.. We put the word out thinking that at some time they would show up somewhere and someone would spot them.. Never heard anything!!
Bentley Page was flying very good at the Nats and had good planes but kept having fuel problems. His bladder would start rotating in the container until it twisted the fuel supply off. Carl and I were pitting and we tried all kind of tricks to stop it but it cost Bentley a match and he was out.. Never have I seen this any other time.. Pete had good planes and was flying really good in junior.... The same thing can be said for Sherwood and I think that got him going in combat.. Carl and I were pitting for them and things went very well. Pete won Junior combat.... Sherwood won Senior combat..... Carl was second in open combat and I won Open combat... All of us except Carl had flown together all summer but CARL WAS ONE OF US !!!!! We were lucky "A CLEAN SWEEP" It don't get any better than this !!! When I get back I will talk about Carl and my final flight, until then I would like to wish everyone
A MERRY CHRISTMAS AND A HAPPY, WONDERFUL NEW YEAR!!!!
God Bless RW
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Thank you so much for the continual installments to your "History Of Combat As RW Lived It".
And, Merry Christmas to you and your family. May His grace be with you all this year.
Andre
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Hope everyone is having a good 2016 with high expectations... Time flies and life is like a river; you never touch the same water twice, but at least we can remember when and where we touched it.. I left off with the 1962 and the combat event. Remember, our group won big. Pete Jaden won Junior combat
and finished 3rd in Junior stunt (except for a little help I gave him with the wing) with a plane he built all by himself... Sherwood Buckstaff won Senior and I won Open. The final flight between Carl Berryman and myself is one to go down in history and is even talked about today by anyone old enough to remember.
Carl and I had flown for first in many contest but our goal was to meet in the finals for first at the Nationals... After two days of combat matches we were finally the only two left and would finally get our wish. We had pitted for each other during all the other matches but now would have to get others to help pit.
This was not much of a problem as we always started our own engines at that time..... Just needed someone to launch and do other little things.. We had always said that if we ever met at the Nationals it would be decided in the air, not on the ground. Besides, what could go wrong, we are pros!! LOL I was afraid I was at a disadvantage as the Voodoo was a stock kit that was too heavy and way nose heavy, but it had served me well the rest of finals day.. Remember I had my best planes stolen the night before finals day and I hadn't planned to have to use it... Everything goes normal as we go into the circle and get ready for the final flight.. Carl and I go through the regular routine ( you know; lets have a good match, may the best man win, yatta, yatta) You have all been there no matter which event you are flying....... We get ready to start, I get a bump, the starting signal is given and Carl yells I have a blown plug. No problem we will wait on you.. However there was a problem, I forgot to disconnect my battery while Carl replaced his plug.. He got a bump and said let's go and immediately started.. Second problem, while waiting still hooked up my plug was gone. While I changed my plug everyone was yelling at Carl to go up but he would not and said we were going up together which we did. We had one of those great, clean, long matches before I finally killed him giving me first place.. It was a sweet but bitter victory as Carl has always been one of my best friends, both in person and in modeling. The sad thing is we never got to repeat this once in a lifetime event..... I guess that is why it is once in a lifetime!!!
RW
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Happy New year's Riley! Thanks for continuing this story. It's so good, it was actually a topic in our last club meeting. Then two separate guys I've spoke to on the phone have brought this up!
Thank you!
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Thanks Riley, I'll get back to the compilation now. Your match with Carl reminds me of a FF situation I had with a close friend. At the 90 Nats I won Wakefield beating him by 1 second. 2 days later flying Old Timer Large Stick he beat me..............by one second!
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Hope everyone is having a good 2016 with high expectations... Time flies and life is like a river; you never touch the same water twice, but at least we can remember when and where we touched it.. I left off with the 1962 and the combat event. Remember, our group won big. Pete Jaden won Junior combat
and finished 3rd in Junior stunt (except for a little help I gave him with the wing) with a plane he built all by himself... Sherwood Buckstaff won Senior and I won Open. The final flight between Carl Berryman and myself is one to go down in history and is even talked about today by anyone old enough to remember.
Carl and I had flown for first in many contest but our goal was to meet in the finals for first at the Nationals... After two days of combat matches we were finally the only two left and would finally get our wish. We had pitted for each other during all the other matches but now would have to get others to help pit.
This was not much of a problem as we always started our own engines at that time..... Just needed someone to launch and do other little things.. We had always said that if we ever met at the Nationals it would be decided in the air, not on the ground. Besides, what could go wrong, we are pros!! LOL I was afraid I was at a disadvantage as the Voodoo was a stock kit that was too heavy and way nose heavy, but it had served me well the rest of finals day.. Remember I had my best planes stolen the night before finals day and I hadn't planned to have to use it... Everything goes normal as we go into the circle and get ready for the final flight.. Carl and I go through the regular routine ( you know; lets have a good match, may the best man win, yatta, yatta) You have all been there no matter which event you are flying....... We get ready to start, I get a bump, the starting signal is given and Carl yells I have a blown plug. No problem we will wait on you.. However there was a problem, I forgot to disconnect my battery while Carl replaced his plug.. He got a bump and said let's go and immediately started.. Second problem, while waiting still hooked up my plug was gone. While I changed my plug everyone was yelling at Carl to go up but he would not and said we were going up together which we did. We had one of those great, clean, long matches before I finally killed him giving me first place.. It was a sweet but bitter victory as Carl has always been one of my best friends, both in person and in modeling. The sad thing is we never got to repeat this once in a lifetime event..... I guess that is why it is once in a lifetime!!!
Thanks Riley, ..... a great story y1
RW
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It has taken a while to get back into story of combat in the 50's, 60's but I think I am back where I can continue the story starting with 1963....
63 was a good year for me in business as we got Flite Line rolling making kits and the starting of Lone Star Balsa.. In competition combat it was not a good year for me.. The popular designs were the Voodoo by a large margin, and many stabilator clones of the type. I had released my Flite Line Sneeker and Demon kits. A lot of new designs were showing up, some good, some bad, with most of the good using similar numbers.. It seems with all the designs showing up in this period combat competition was good and exciting. We will talk about the 63 Nats in Southern California in next post. I didn't good any good but my friends did.............
RW
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Riley, do you remember the fuss over monoline at that ('63) Nats? Exciting times ...
Don't quit writing now, Thanks!
Dennis
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i flew against the mono line guy in some after hours combat at the 66 nats and KILLED him
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Thanks for coming back to this sir!
We're very excited on this end for this continuing recollection
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Started this post last night; worked on it a long time, then lost the whole thing when I decided to delete one word and deleted everything. Disgusted, I threw down the lap top and went to bed.. I am going to try again but this is the 3rd time starting over to get this far............
I will start with 1963 and the Southern California Nats... I had quite a bit of time to get ready for the Nats so I had the best batch of planes and engines I had ever taken to a contest... I thought I was loaded for bear but it was not to be. I could not knock down a cub. It all started when upon arrival Hi Johnson approached me touting his new props and wanted me to run them. I told him I was afraid my engines would throw a blade and I was afraid to run them. He told me they (his Calif. group) had been running them on engines just as good as mine with no problems. He insisted, I gave in and said I would try one....
He even said " if it throws a blade I will repair the plane for you or replace it". I picked a prop with good straight grain to try, but was still sure it would not hold up... DUMB, I tried it anyway.. I started and tuned the engine with Hi holding the plane. He launches and the plane leaps forward, gaining speed and rpm quickly... By the time it completes the first lap the Sneeker is hauling and just as it got back right over Hi the prop exploded, the engine screamed, the mount shook loose and everything stopped... The plane was ruined and with a little disgust at myself, I looked at Hi with his head down, shaking it side to side and said quite strongly "you just thought your guys had hot engines". Anyway that event set the tone for me for the rest of the Nats. Engines that ran great at home suddenly starting seizing and down time cost me any chance of winning... Enough about my troubles.. Next I will talk about the winners and etc........
RW
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Riley:
Great job. Thank you. When you reach 1968, check back to the Combat section here and locate the two photos I took of you at the 68' Olathe, Kansas NATS.
A few of us were telling Scarinzi the other day about what you are doing here and he is quite intrigued. Too bad he doesn't use a computer.
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Compose your posts using your email client and send it to yourself. Once you get it finished copy and paste it to the forum. Eliminates an internet glitch causing you to loose allot of work.
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SO glad to see you continuing this effort, Riley!
I'm still very much enjoying a stroll through combat history as seen through your eyes and experiences.
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The 63 Nats in Calif at this time has it's usual low turnout and sub par competition in combat as compared with the Midwest and east. In this area the east coast had big numbers but Midwest had by far the best competition.. This Nats had the first monoline combat contestant that I am aware of. There was a big controversy over this as I recall but the flier did not do well as I remember. There were a lot of left coast type combat designs as would be expected. By this I mean smaller wing area, higher aspect ratio planes. The competition between the top flyers was really good and came down to a close finish. Even though I did not win I was very involved as a pit man for the winners. All three of the top placers were close personal friends.. Carl Berryman and Howard Henry were from my usual flying buddies and Lubbock bunch while I had got to know Bill James quite well as Duke Fox's right hand man.... As such I pitted for all of them with Carl being number one if there was a conflict. Carl Berryman won first flying his Johnson powered Big Iron and as I recall he and Howard had to fly two matches to determine the winner.. Howard Henry won second flying his Johnson powered kit built Demon proving that in the right hands and trim this plane was more competitive than most thought... Bill James won third flying his Fox powered Big Iron.. It was a good contest with the best guys coming out on top...
As a side note I remember a very young (16 or so) Ted Fancier hanging around and taking it all in: asking questions and very interested in what was going on.
Anybody remember what happened to him???
RW
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. . . As a side note I remember a very young (16 or so) Ted Fancher hanging around and taking it all in: asking questions and very interested in what was going on.
Anybody remember what happened to him???
RW
Word is, he became interested in Precision Aerobatics...and did rather well at it. LL~
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i flew against the mono line guy in some after hours combat at the 66 nats and KILLED him
Kinda reminds me of the '68 Nats, Bob. A teammate and local flyer - good guy (great in the pits!) who I don't think ever won a combat contest in his life, and I flew with him for more than 20 years - was matched against Bob Lipscomb in the first round. As I recall, Lipscomb was a 2-time Nats combat winner ...
We had a ton of trouble that year, primarily based on trusting a brand new batch of glow plugs from Duke Fox. They ran just fine here in Minnesota, but the heat and humidity of that Kansas Nats and that week must have been too much.
Probably not more than 15-20 seconds into the match, my teammate's Fox 36X quit (yup, a blown plug) - whereupon Lipscomb, running a SuperTigre, started spouting the virtues of his superior engine. My teammate replied with something like "well, that may be - but, if you look closely, your streamer and kill card are gone".
One thing I learned from wrestling early in life is that most of us put our pants on one leg at a time. Irrespective of our name.
Dave Kruse was a pretty darned good combat flyer, especially given what I consider the tremendous handicaps he had with Monoline. To underestimate him would be a big mistake - as guys like Bill Carpenter ('60 Nats winner, Sterling Super Swoop) found out at the '63 Nats.
Dennis
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The 63 Nats in Calif at this time has it's usual low turnout and sub par competition in combat as compared with the Midwest and east. In this area the east coast had big numbers but Midwest had by far the best competition.. This Nats had the first monoline combat contestant that I am aware of. There was a big controversy over this as I recall but the flier did not do well as I remember. There were a lot of left coast type combat designs as would be expected. By this I mean smaller wing area, higher aspect ratio planes. The competition between the top flyers was really good and came down to a close finish. Even though I did not win I was very involved as a pit man for the winners. All three of the top placers were close personal friends.. Carl Berryman and Howard Henry were from my usual flying buddies and Lubbock bunch while I had got to know Bill James quite well as Duke Fox's right hand man.... As such I pitted for all of them with Carl being number one if there was a conflict. Carl Berryman won first flying his Johnson powered Big Iron and as I recall he and Howard had to fly two matches to determine the winner.. Howard Henry won second flying his Johnson powered kit built Demon proving that in the right hands and trim this plane was more competitive than most thought... Bill James won third flying his Fox powered Big Iron.. It was a good contest with the best guys coming out on top...
As a side note I remember a very young (16 or so) Ted Fancier hanging around and taking it all in: asking questions and very interested in what was going on.
Anybody remember what happened to him???
RW
Actually, Riley, David "Monoline Pete" Kruse did quite well. In spite of all the crybabies protesting Monoline at the pilot's meeting the night before competition started. Grown men acting like spoiled children, and apparently thinking not with their heads, but with some other part of their anatomy.
He did well in spite of the tremendous disadvantages he flew with. (Any idiot stupid enough to cross their .015 stranded lines with a single, solid line of perhaps .028 diameter needs some remedial schooling.)
Dave has been a good friend for more than 50 years. He's spent many hours helping kids - with U-Control and other forms of flight - and, while we laughed at his experimentation with electrics 50 years ago, he patiently explained that battery technology would catch up. Who's laughing now? (I can tell you it isn't Dave - it's just not in his character!)
That character also helps explain why Dave was so eager to VOLUNTARILY grant rematches to opponents - it took 3 flights against Bill Carpenter ('60 Nats winner, Sterling Super Swoop) for Dave to advance in that round.
Dave could easily have flown a preliminary rematch before the Finals on Friday morning, but he instead withdrew. I was really heartbroken, as I had advanced to the final 8 myself, but understood his reasons: (1) he would have had to rebuild an airplane or two, and the 3 of us traveling together had sight-seeing plans, and (2) UNSPOKEN by Dave - he had endured enough crap and verbal abuse for one person.
The sportsmanship I saw and experienced in the finals was great, but I left with complete disdain for the whiners.
More later ...
Dennis
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I dont remember a problem with the after hrs flying session in 66 and i enjoyed talking to Dave about the monoline stuff as i was flying it in Speed but hadn't tried stunting at that time
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Dennis, I will have to admit I do not remember much about the monoline argument.. Probably because I had other things on my agenda and did not think there was much to argue about...
RW
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"Grown men acting like spoiled children"?
Some things don't change much, do they? Competition brings out the worst and best in all of us.
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I am going to continue 1963 with the last contest I flew that year only because my Nats problems continued... That contest, the Southwest Championships in Dallas on Labor Day are completely different from California with very high heat and high humidity.. I was still having engine problems... Tried everything, plugs, fuel and ect. and nothing cured it. Ran great in Lubbock but not in LA or Dallas.. With setting where it should be flamed out in outsides and only cure was lean needle. It came down to the squish band heads I was running but had nothing else so had to go with them. That has always been my thinking but never had any trouble before or since so who knows... Now I have to tell you the story of that meet and a once in a lifetime happening. I was flying Sammy Kilpatrick, a longtime combat pilot and friend from near Dallas.. I was on the ground several times because of the flameouts and way behind in the score. With only a few seconds left Don Jaden was my pit man and Sammy was doing loops right behind where we were pitting (legal and quite common in the day).. I started with about 15 seconds left and ran to handle with less than 10 remaining.. Don launched; I scared the hell out of him as I went right back over his head through the top of Sammy's loop and killed him a half second before the horn blew.. Sammy was quite the sportsman for not crashing his plane as soon as my motor started as he would have won easily.. All he said was I didn't think there was any way you could do that in the time left and you could never do it again and he is right, it was meant to be.
To regress a little about combat plane designs. A Half Fast won the 1955 Nats and the Quicker dominated the 56 Nats. From 56 and until the late 60's the design started by the Quicker remained fairly constant (9" cord, 36-38" span)
The side mount engine came along plus the stabilator and with different airfoils but the basic planes were about the same, a little smaller or bigger but about the same. Designs started getting a little larger in the 70's but remained similar in design and then foam came into designs in a large way. We will continue this later.......
RW
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"Sammy was quite the sportsman "
That never changed. In the late '70's, Sammy would let Doug Harris and I pit for him. We were just kids and definitely did not give him any advantage, but he let us do it anyway. Always friendly and smiling. He lived in the Texarkana area in those days. A quick google search shows that he still is in that area.
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Searching for Green head Torp info I ran across this thread
I can not attend James Mears memorial (Lubbock Texas) in Sept due to family issues but am trying to get set for the 8~9 October Tulsa Glue Dobbers event where Bob Mears, Riley, and others I want to meet be be there
Seems Riley stalled out on this thread and I have been trying to not pester and seem too selfish desiring more of the story and history
My combat building and experience in from the early 70s with Flight Streaks and then Mathis Mongeese with 5224 Enya .35s
I did not build my first VooDoo until much later...and after meeting Riley a year or so back at a Lubbock event I have slowly accumulating a few of his designs to eventuality build
BY The way ---both my Torps are C versions, and I learned a great deal today about a engine that will BITE you if you prop it with heat to the plug....grrrr...grin
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I can not attend James Mears memorial (Lubbock Texas) in Sept due to family issues but am trying to get set for the 8~9 October Tulsa Glue Dobbers event where Bob Mears, Riley, and others I want to meet be be there
Details on the James Mears event? I live 95 miles away, might attend if no conflicts.
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George Bob Mears has a thread in the evens area
http://stunthanger.com/smf/event's/james-mears-memorial-combat-bash-43531/
Sept 3 and 4 2 days of combat with a visit to the museum and dinner Saturday night
Later Oct 8~9 Tulsa Glue Dobbers are hosting a vintage combat festival?
Andre Ming has the info in the combat area
http://stunthanger.com/smf/combat/tulsa-gluedobbers-1st-annual-43936/
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George Bob Mears has a thread in the evens area http://stunthanger.com/smf/event's/james-mears-memorial-combat-bash-43531/ Sept 3 and 4 2 days of combat with a visit to the museum and dinner Saturday night Later Oct 8~9 Tulsa Glue Dobbers are hosting a vintage combat festival? Andre Ming has the info in the combat area http://stunthanger.com/smf/combat/tulsa-gluedobbers-1st-annual-43936/
Thanks, Fred. I posted a question the Lubbock event. Tulsa, thanks for the info but a little further than I'd like to travel.
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After losing my wife, lover, and best friend suddenly after 65 years together 9 months ago it became hard to carry on with this story.. The story wound up being mostly about my exploits than total history of combat. I wanted more stories of combat development from more parts of the country and more stories of others history.. That being said I am going to review the past stories and catch back up and finish with this story. Bear with me and all input will be surely appreciated.. Combat flying is one of the most fun things I ever experienced and I was involved in a lot of different sports as well as flying other events...
RW
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Riley,sir
I can't imagine what you're going through. I appreciate these stories very much. I'm trying to get into combat, but everything is out of state for me. So guys like you keep me motivated to practice and make the drive elsewhere just to practice.
Thank you
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Riley
You asked for input about early combat and here is what went on in my area in the early 1950’s.
I lived in Binghamton NY right on the Penn border.
I was born in 1940 and built stick models and then 1/2A models by the late 40’s. Around 1948 I saw some guys flying largeCL models and then in 1950 I and others were flying combat 1/2A models. By 1952 we were using what ever we had,Ringmasters,wings,just about anything that would fly. Around 1954 I was going to a few contest and flying stunt and speed. I saw the guys fly combat and wanted to try it. We were using a plane we called the WingMaster.I was a Ringmaster with the motor mounted right at the leading edge and the tank in the wing. The stab was 1” behind the wing. They flew very well with green head .32’s on them. I built some I/Beam profile models and these were even better than the WingMasters. I could build three in a weekend. Then came Omegas,Quickers,Halffast ,Reactors. They all had one problem the upright motor. We turned the motors over on there side on all these models and we had a lot of success as we were not breaking off the engine mounts.
I was not a national level flyer but did fly against quite a few who were. In the mid 1950’s I could crash and be back in the air but those guys flying wings with upright motors many time could not. I remember going to contest in Scranton PA with two friends and there were at least 20 T/Squares there. We had 6 combat models between us all with side mounted engines. Our models were basic Quickers with side mounted engines. I won stunt and second in combat at that meet. I think the guy who beat me was named Arrowsmith. We also flew in all the NYC contests. I did go to the 1957 NATs but only flew FF.
I built I/Beam stunters so I also built I/beam combat models. Thicker airfoil but very light. I used K&B Green heads and the OS Max combat engines. Some I my area were using Fox Combat Specials.
During the mid 1950’s at contest all over NY and Penn guys were using Fox .35, McCoy .35.OS Max and K&B.35’s . I never say many Johnson or ST engines.
I worked in two Hobby shops Tri-City and Kerns Hobbies in Binghamton and got engines at cost.K&B .35’s cost $8-9 fuel was $4 gallon.
I would guess most parts of the country went through about the same evolution of models. The biggest change in Combat models for me was turning the engine on it’s side and we were ahead of most for a short time.
EddyR
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Hi Riley,
While you are regaining your thoughts, I will tell a story on myself that happened at the 1966 NATS. As you remember you won the Open Combat , and I won the Senior Combat that year. Out of all that happened at at Glenview Naval air station, the thing I remember the most is being Set-up by my pit men Gerald Sanders, and Ray Stone after winning first place in Combat. The week of the contest I met a young girl who was flying in the Senior class combat by the name of Christine Thielen, I think she was from Chicago. We hit it off that week and ran around quite a bit together. I flew 9 matches at the cost of 6 planes to win, but by luck never had to fly against her.
The next day Gerald wanted to get in some practice with his Combat plane, so Ray Stone and I went along as his pit crew. We no more got to the practice circle when Christine shows up carrying her Combat plane. She asked me if I would fly against her, but I said I didn't have a plane with me to fly. (Thinking, thank God!) So what does my buddy Gerald say, that's not a problem, you can fly mine! (thinking, thanks buddy) Christine gets set up, of course Gerald just happens to have steamers with him and up we both go to battle it out. Christine's plane is very slow , and I planned for an easy Kill, WRONG! I came up behind and low only I pulled up to late and killed myself. Never going to live this down. Christine landed her plane first, and started jumping up and down screaming, I killed you! Before I could even get landed She jumped up and planted a kiss on me busting my lip, and making me fall backwards.When I finally got up on my feet, I see Gerald, and Ray rolling on the ground laughing. From that moment on she was called KILLER CHRISTINE.
Well that's about all I got to say.
See you at the James Mears Combat Bash, Randy
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I take it you never became husband and wife??? LL~ LL~ LL~ Great story. H^^
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No Doc, it was 3 more years before I found my wife of 47 years this month. I would like to know if anybody out there knows what happened to Killer Christine. I may have her first and last name misspelled.
Thanks, Randy
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Pitch Dawn Cosmilllo into the mix, too. Excellent flyer, both stunt and combat. Wonder what happened to her as well?
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Wasn't Dawn on the cover of the 1967 MAN that featured the Super Satan?
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Dawn Cosmillo's picture is on the cover of the September, 1967 issue of M.A.N. She is ready to go out in the circle and fly a combat match with a Super Satan. Larry Scarinzi is holding the airplane. The picture was taken at Rich's Hobbytown in New Jersey.
John Miske told me that the last time he saw Dawn was in 1972. She was pushing a baby carriage out at the Garden State Circleburner's field. She had married a NYC policeman.
Larry Scarinzi (who was a good family friend) talked to her a few years ago. She was living in Florida, and was in the jewelry business. She had no interest in model airplanes and didn't want to get reinvolved with the hobby.
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We have tried for years to get Dawn to come to the VSC, but as De pointed out, she no longer has any interest.
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Trying not to be "too ignorant" and it may have been discussed earlier...I know how "mono-line" works in speed, but combat? Someone enlighten me please.
Norm
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Wasn't Dawn on the cover of the 1967 MAN that featured the Super Satan?
Yes, and Don Shulman( in the background center circle) flying his combat ship as her opponent. Don a Union Model Airplane Club flyer for many a year , a fine stunt pilot and an excellent combat flyer. And, a super, super fun guy to be around.
Many will recognize his last name- Leon his Dad, a model aviation legend and Don's sons, Jason and David. Jason remains a top FAI Pattern pilot and the last I heard about David, he was flying jets and in the gold and silver business.
Dawn and Don were an item in the late sixties, but that's old news.
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Trying not to be "too ignorant" and it may have been discussed earlier...I know how "mono-line" works in speed, but combat? Someone enlighten me please.
Norm
Moving the bead along 18" of twisted rods isn't nearly as fast as moving your wrist in the normal 2-line method. So while monoline was legal, it was obviously at a disadvantage in combat & stunt. In speed it works OK to make minor adjustments to models that pretty-much fly level by themselves.
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I gotta get some free time to start reading this thread from the beginning again. I'm not a combat flyer but love the history of model airplanes in general and have enjoyed what I have read so far. Riley, please do the best you can and keep pushing forward with this. I hope someone is saving it electronically. It would make an interesting book or series of articles in Model Aviation. I know some don't like "that rag" but as the official publication of the AMA, which sanctioned all of the events mentioned, I don't see how they could turn down an offer of a lengthy article along with any photos that could be provided to accompany it. Great stuff and I'm going to see about attending the get together in Tulsa in October just to hang out, watch and listen to stories! Love theh stories, and know Andre Ming from another hobby activity, if he has any involvement, I know the event will be EPIC!
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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Hi Riley,
While you are regaining your thoughts, I will tell a story on myself that happened at the 1966 NATS. As you remember you won the Open Combat , and I won the Senior Combat that year. Out of all that happened at at Glenview Naval air station, the thing I remember the most is being Set-up by my pit men Gerald Sanders, and Ray Stone after winning first place in Combat. The week of the contest I met a young girl who was flying in the Senior class combat by the name of Christine Thielen, I think she was from Chicago. We hit it off that week and ran around quite a bit together. I flew 9 matches at the cost of 6 planes to win, but by luck never had to fly against her.
The next day Gerald wanted to get in some practice with his Combat plane, so Ray Stone and I went along as his pit crew. We no more got to the practice circle when Christine shows up carrying her Combat plane. She asked me if I would fly against her, but I said I didn't have a plane with me to fly. (Thinking, thank God!) So what does my buddy Gerald say, that's not a problem, you can fly mine! (thinking, thanks buddy) Christine gets set up, of course Gerald just happens to have steamers with him and up we both go to battle it out. Christine's plane is very slow , and I planned for an easy Kill, WRONG! I came up behind and low only I pulled up to late and killed myself. Never going to live this down. Christine landed her plane first, and started jumping up and down screaming, I killed you! Before I could even get landed She jumped up and planted a kiss on me busting my lip, and making me fall backwards.When I finally got up on my feet, I see Gerald, and Ray rolling on the ground laughing. From that moment on she was called KILLER CHRISTINE.
Well that's about all I got to say.
See you at the James Mears Combat Bash, Randy
Randy,
It was a real pleasure to meet you at the James Mears memorial combat bash. Thanks for letting us check out your planes.
Riley, I'll talk to Tony Drago here real soon. I'll let him know we had lunch together. Thanks for hanging out sir!
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Dane,
Sorry it took so long to reply but we were in Lubbock a week and things really got behind at home. I really enjoyed meeting everyone and was really impressed with Bob Mears Combat Plane collection. I am glad that I will be part of adding two Combat planes he didn't have, one is the Zipper designed by Wayne Welch. Wayne had the laser cut short kit I sent him assembled, ready to cover when I was at his house at Lubbock.
At the Tulsa Vintage Combat reunion 8&9 Oct I am going to give Bob Mears the Spoiler Combat Plane that was built in 1968 and designed by Gerald Sanders.
Hope you can make the trip to Tulsa in Oct., Randy
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First off, many thanks to you, Riley, for starting this thread and for your wonderful contributions. I first discovered it two days ago, shortly after lamenting to my wife that nobody had written a history of CL Combat. I'm so pleased to find I was wrong! It has brought back a wave of nostalgia and many happy memories. Since you've invited others to share their experiences here, I'll be brave/foolish and add some of my own. First, some background: I'm 71, and grew up in Ithaca NY. I started flying 1/2-A's at age 12, back in 1957. By Fall of that year I had joined AMA and the local club. When the club held its fall meet, I entered and had my first combat match, with a Johnson powered Ringmaster. The match ended quickly in a mid-air, destroying the Ringmaster, but I was hooked, and knew I'd be back the following year for more. I'll stop here for now, but I hope to add some further posts about the planes we flew, some of the people I met, and most of all the 58 Nats at Glenview. This will all be from the perspective of a 13-year-old who had just discovered a whole new world.
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Welcome aboard John!
Sharing one's personal experience is something Riley has requested several times in this thread. Looking forward to reading more of them!
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Thanks, Andre, for your welcome and encouragement. I'm honored to be a part of this group. Also thanks to Fred Van Gorter, who pointed me to the Flying Lines web pages, with all the combat history collected there. I've got some reading to do! Anyway, to continue, I'll try to recall some of the people I knew and flew with.
Our club was the Ithaca Model Squadron, a pretty classy name (we thought) for what was in truth a pretty laid back bunch. There were about 30 guys, roughly half were Juniors. Most of us kids never went beyond fooling with 1/2-A's in our back yards. Good experience, though; if you could get a Cub .049 to start and run on Testor's 39, anything else was a piece of cake. How we beginners got stuck with that engine/fuel pairing is another story.
There were about a dozen serious contestors in the club, but I can only remember a few of the core. Seniors included the Mason brothers, Dick and Gary; Dave DeSantis; and Strether "Stretch" Smith. Our gurus, the big guns in Open, were Harold Porter, Al Smith and Charlie Phillips. I should also mention hobby shop owner Paul Patten, who never flew but came to meetings and as many contests as he could, and was really supportive in every respect. Charlie was the real ringleader; his energy and enthusiasm were boundless and contagious. At 36, he was the Patriarch (my, how things have changed!). He picked the contest itinerary, as he was most familiar with the neighboring clubs and could tell us where the best meets and competition would be found. We were rarely disappointed.
There was a hotbed of modellers in Northeastern Pennsylvania, so we'd hit four or five meets in that region. T-Square designer Dick Schwarzchild lived in Wilkes-Barre, so PA was T-square country. More on that later. There were some great modelers there: Schwarzchild was another "spark plug", whose drive and enthiusiasm was a big asset. Seniors I remember were Lee Lyons, Mike Haravitch and Bob Heminway. Open flyers included
Schwarzchild, when he wasn't acting as CD, Jesse Hopper and Wesley Levan. There were many others; I just can't remember their names. This is getting long, so I'll take a break here.
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I've thrown away several pages of scribbles in the last two days, trying to write about the models we flew without rambling on and on and boring everyone to death. Here's Take 3: Today a Flite Streak seems like a pretty mundane airplane, but when it first appeared in 1958 it was a Game Changer. Flying wings were prevalent in the NY/PA region in '57. On the positive side they were simple and rugged, the philosophy being it was better to be in the air with a fair mount than on the ground with a broken one. Some were pretty fast, but they all mushed through the turns, losing speed, and none could turn very tight. While there was some diversity, overall the playing field was pretty level. Our club had some good flyers, so did our rivals; competition was hot, life was good. Then in the winter/spring of 1958 the Flite Streak appeared in the hobby shops. Charlie Phillips bought one and got real excited; I can still hear him exclaiming, "Build it right out of the box". This, coming from a guy who rarely built anything "right out of the box", got our attention. He was right: it would easily outrun and outturn any of the popular 'wings, and was almost as tough. The Ithaca gang bought them like popcorn, convinced we'd found the Ultimate Machine. Most of the guys we flew against that Summer were still flying last year's planes, so the 'Streak was the right plane at the right time. When a group of us headed for the Glenview Nats later that Summer, George Aldrich was well represented; we were carrying a Nobler and 11 Flite Streaks.
Enough for now; next time I'll talk about Glenview, where we met Riley, and how he changed all our thinking again.
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Ramble away sir,
I really, enjoy reading about your adventures. Without these stories, guys like me wouldn't know what was out there back then! It helps for the new nostalgia events.
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Yes, keep the stories coming. I flew a little combat locally, but navy carrier and racing is where I had good outcomes. I well remember the Flite Streak. Never had a plane as responsive and controllable until the VooDoo made the scene.
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Thanks for the support; I'm glad someone's enjoying this stuff. That being the case, I've decided to add a bit more background:
Willow Grove is about a 3 hour drive from Ithaca, so quite a few from our group had attended the '57 Nats. Dave DeSantis had flown a few rounds in Senior Combat, and Stretch Smith had done even better, coming in fourth. Both had had their appetites whetted, and were making plans for Glenview. Dick Manteuffel had agreed to ride along as pit crew, and they had room for one more. They had watched Junior combat in PA and felt the competiton was pretty weak, so they asked several of us Juniors if we'd like to come along and try our luck. My parents were the only ones who consented, so to my surprise, I was going to the Nats. In usual modeller tradition we all needed new planes, and time was short. Dave offered to share his shop with me, so together we turned out seven Flite Streaks in four days. Waiting for glue to dry was the hardest part; no CA back then. Covering and doping happened on the day before departure; Dave had a spray rig, so that part went fast. No time left, so all flight testing was done at Glenview, where we discovered the leadouts were set wrong and we had almost no line tension. Shimming the engines for lots of right thrust was a quick fix, but control remained marginal; we'd just have to live with it. Stretch's planes were new and untried as well, but they were set up properly and flew fine. Stretch had borrowed his grandmother's 1948 Chrysler, removed the back seat and put a matress on the floor. He and Dave would take turns driving and sleeping, so we could travel non-stop. This worked out well. The remaining space was crammed with planes and gear; the Nobler rode on a sling rigged above the matress and the Flite Streaks, with tails removed, were stacked up, side by side and nose down, across the trunk.
More to come, but I need a break to collect my thoughts.